Fancy a Chicken Supper?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Me and Mrs Neely have had a disagreement this morning. I refuse to eat chicken produced under "normal" conditions (please see above). However, Mrs Neely doesn't care "because they are only chickens" which means, apparently, that it is acceptable for them to be mentally and physically abused.

Now the simple way to get around our argument is to buy organic chicken; chicken that has been allowed to live normally. (I am not a vegetarian though I eat meat sparingly and only knowingly buy from animals which have been given a life.) Of course, the "choice" at our local stores of factory farmed chicken or factory farmed chicken (apparently people who live on the poorer side of town have no ethics) is not really a choice is it? This is despite Tesco claiming repeatedly that they are "only doing what the consumer wants" but that rant is for another day...

To get around this I have devised a cunning plan. I will get around this by travelling to the city centre, having a couple of wheat beers, buying a real chicken and coming home, hence I get beer and chicken!

Anyway, my question is, do you fancy a chicken supper? Does it put you off, like me, eating chicken produced under intense factory conditions, or are you like Mrs Neely who doesn't care "because they are only chickens"?

Would you eat chickens produced under these conditions?
(The poll is anonynonymous.)

I ask, merely out of interest.

Thank you.

[prendrelemick]

Neely, please, go and see for yourself, the raising of chickens that is. Don't take a pressure group's word for it they have an agenda you know, and don't like open minds.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I have taken more into account than just pressure groups. I am not being manipulated. Good point though.

Besides Tesco's fully admit to producing under these circumstances and proudly declare that they meet targeted welfare standards.

[papayahed]

Of course, the "choice" at our local stores of factory farmed chicken or factory farmed chicken (apparently people who live on the poorer side of town have no ethics) is not really a choice is it?

Are you saying that those that don't eat organic are unethical?

I'm not watching the video. I know that animals raised for human consumption are probably not raised in the best conditions, I know that slaughterhouses are not the happiest places on earth. I would never be able to work in that indutry and if I had to raise/hunt and kill my own food I'd be a vegetarian.

I tell myelf there is a farm where chicken, beef, etc. wrapped in cellophane/polystyrene containers are grown. I will continue to tell myelf this until I have the time and inclination to take up for the plight of the chicken.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Are you saying that those that don't eat organic are unethical?

I'm not watching the video. I know that animals raised for human consumption are probably not raised in the best conditions, I know that slaughterhouses are not the happiest places on earth. I would never be able to work in that indutry and if I had to raise/hunt and kill my own food I'd be a vegetarian.

I tell myelf there is a farm where chicken, beef, etc. wrapped in cellophane/polystyrene containers are grown. I will continue to tell myelf this until I have the time and inclination to take up for the plight of the chicken.

I think the least that you can do is to watch the video.

There is a farm where chicken, beef and all manner of animals are allowed to live a normal life, all you have to do is seek out the smaller farms and reject the industry standard. Watch the video and decide for yourself.

[Emil Miller]

Being a small eater, I don't eat chicken or most meats, but even if I were not concerned about factory farming, which I am, I would be very wary of eating anything other than free range birds. I read a report about two years ago that revealed much of the chicken eaten in the UK comes from Brazil and is chemically treated to ensure that it doesn't deteriorate before storage and shipping to the UK.
On a further point, a radio programme I was listening to a week ago about foodstuffs, mentioned that factory farming really took off during the 1960s when supermarkets became the normal pattern of shopping and food was therefore readily available in large quantities. Among other things, this was the start of the universal fattie syndrome.

[iamnobody]

Are we only considering the chicken bought at market? Do you eat chicken at restaurants, fast food places. My question is to any one that prefers free-range. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Thanks Brian, sensible approach I think.


Are we only considering the chicken bought at market? Do you eat chicken at restaurants, fast food places. My question is to any one that prefers free-range. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious.

No, that is a very good point. It is extremely hard to eat out and eat free range. Personally I don't eat at fast food places (I have never in my life had a KFC) and now more and more at restaurants I will only eat free range or locally sourced stuff. Yes, this does make it hard, but there are more and more places around that are heading in the free range or locally produced direction, even pubs.

For the purposes of the poll however feel free to vote for what you buy.

[Nightshade]

Ok... Not watching the video, probably seen it before and really I don't need a repeat of the being sick incedent. I buy Halal....which aside from the debate about whether it is an inhumane way to slaughter animals is supposed to cover the treatment and keeping of animals till the time they are killed they are basically menato to live nice healthy lives, no cages or overcrowded pens etc . So I buy and I don't ask questions but here is the thing Neeley, what is to garantee that some guy isn't just slapping organic on another type of chicken to raise the price.

And while I know you can't do this in the uk, the only other way to get around this would be to raise your own chickens and kill yourself and pluck and clean... but you can't do that in the uk anyway . Besides you already said you couldn't do that.

EDIT: Mind a friend of mine in MAnchester won't even do that on the grounds that she reccons no one follows the real halal rules anymore and thus the animals are treated with crulty and we shouldn't be eating them.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hello. Whereas I agree that food labelling is not good enough, I seriously doubt that they can get away with some guy in the back sticking "organic" on the packet! As with anything there are different standards and not everything is to be trusted, for example Happy Egg are a large company who supply free range eggs to most of the major stores in UK, but despite being genuinely free range, some of their farms are of pretty poor standard. This opens up another debate about what happens when you try to supply large-scale industry without intense farming methods - a conversation for another time perhaps?

Why can't you raise your own chickens in the UK? There is no law against this at all. I'm sure that you have to have adecquate space for it etc, but there is no law against it. In fact it is growing in popularity all the time. As for raising and killing my own chickens I don't recall having said that I couldn't/wouldn't do that at all. We don't have the space as it happens, and I'm not an animal person really, but of everything, with more space, I think I could go for a few chickens certainly.

Yes as your friend says Halal doesn't necessarily mean much I'm afraid. Reports such as this are common.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/sep/20/halal-meat-the-truth

I can't and won't force people to watch videos they don't want to, but it seems to me that there is a lot of putting fingers in ears and shouting loudly going on. If that's how people want to feel better about it then that's up to them.

Personally, I want to know where my food comes from before I put something in mine, or my children's' mouths.

[Scheherazade]

So, what you are suggesting is that the chicken should be kept and raised in a more natural environment... Before he loses her head to find her way to your dinner plate?

I cannot imagine something more cruel than eating a living creature's wings or breasts (not to mention her off-spring).

PS: Just for the records:

1. I am not a vegetarian and do consume chicken every now and then.

2. I am not suggesting either that, since we are eating them, it does not matter how the chicken is treated.

[LitNetIsGreat]

So, what you are suggesting is that the chicken should be kept and raised in a more natural environment... Before he loses her head to find her way to your dinner plate?


Yes. That's about it. If you are eating the animal, I think it is only fair that they have lived some sort of life first. Chickens brought up in the "standard" manner, have not seen either sunlight or grass and forced to live in, for me, totally unacceptable conditions.


I cannot imagine something more cruel than eating a living creature's wings or breasts (not to mention her off-spring).

Again, if you are having something killed at least make the most of it. As little of it should go to waste as possible. Eating meat should be big thing that we don't take for granted.

[Nightshade]

Neeley I meant you can't slaughter the bird in your house, or on your property without special liscence, ( well Ithink farms can??) but I know you can't do it in a normal house. And I am aware that she was right which is why I went veggie for a while, but the fact is I like my meat too much to give it up. And Neeley it really depends where the food is coming from. Even people who use 'local produce' often have fine print that says that if they can't find what they want locally for what the deem a suitable price they will go somewhere else. I was fairly shocked when I read that at the bootom of a yorkshire pride soup!
.
That is a point scher, just how humane, is it really to eat the animal no matter how it is killed? or has lived...

[altheskeptic]

I can tell by reading these posts that most people on this forum have never been hungry. I mean really hungry, as in not knowing where the next meal is coming from and not having eaten for a while. I am sure this would change your mind about foods. Now, I am no defending the way some livestock is treated in some commercial farms, but it does make it affordable to people who could not afford it otherwise. To think that someone that has less money has no concern for the ethical treatment of animals is just wrong. If it comes between giving a chicken a good life or my children not eating, the chicken is going to lose.

My father in law usually raised his beef from a calf. I was always impressed at the way he treated his livestock, they had good lives. He treated them like his own children. But when the day came he would walk out into the field and blow its brain out. The beef was delicious.

I want to raise my own chickens and I do have goats. If I get hungry I will eat the goats. If I can't bring myself to kill them I will sell them at auction and buy food. I will have no problem killing chickens however.

By the way good milk does come from contented cows. It is good business to treat milk cows well.

[motherhubbard]

I raise my own chicken and the conditions are much different that those of industrial chicken farms. I know, I used to be a poultry farmer. But, I ate those birds when I raised them. Something to remember is that at times conditions on a farm can get quiet bad. During bad weather or times of illness living conditions are not optimal. That's also true with free range birds, just on a much smaller scale. Industrial farmers want happy, healthy birds because they get fatter and bring more money.

I'm probably more grossed out by what happens to the chicken after it's killed. Chicken purchased from the grocery store has water added and it makes it gross. The poultry plant can add up to 8% water weight (unless that has recently changed). That's why when you buy chicken it's all juicy and you can squeeze water out of it when it's raw. When you cook in in a pan you end up with chicken swimming in a lot of water. Real chicken that you've killed yourself doesn't feel at all like that. It feels clean, like game meat. It also has a better flavor, in my opinion. Additionally, my chickens lay eggs with dark orange yolks with a rich flavor. Market eggs have a light yellow yolk and no flavor.

[Logos]

Neely I've removed the link to the Live Fast Die Young You Tube video you had in your original post. It could be especially disturbing to some of the younger members here at LitNet, which is an all-ages site. If anybody really needs to see it they can just search You Tube.

[Emil Miller]

I can tell by reading these posts that most people on this forum have never been hungry. I mean really hungry, as in not knowing where the next meal is coming from and not having eaten for a while.

Although there may be rare exceptions, as there are to every rule, it is unlikely that anyone in the US knows what real hunger is. What is evident, is that there is far too much food being eaten as the amount of obesity testifies. This is true also of the UK and the rest of Europe.
One of the things that particularly annoys me is when people say " Thank God it's lunchtime, I'm starving." I would never say that and I have never been hungry. I don't make an issue of eating except to eat what is necessary.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Neely I meant you can't slaughter the bird in your house, or on your property without special licence, (well I think farms can??) but I know you can't do it in a normal house.
Yes that’s true you can’t kill them yourself, but you can send them of or get a licence or whatever. Anyway, I think if I was to raise chickens (which doesn’t look likely) then I would raise them to lay – much more value I think in getting a bird that can lay eggs for you for up to 8 years than the one meal.


That is a point scher, just how humane, is it really to eat the animal no matter how it is killed? or has lived...
Good point, vegetarians have a good argument, which is why I feel it is important to at least make sure the animal has had as much of a natural life as possible before it is killed. That and I just don’t fancy ill-bred, scraggy food.


Neely I've removed the link to the Live Fast Die Young You Tube video you had in your original post. It could be especially disturbing to some of the younger members here at LitNet, which is an all-ages site. If anybody really needs to see it they can just search You Tube.
Well OK I suppose. I’ve shown the video to my 7 year old but that’s just me. It does raise the point that if people can’t even look at the farming methods whether they should go out and buy the chicken/meat which feeds those very methods – see no evil and all that. However, as you say, the links are readily available everywhere and it is up to individuals to seek out and make their own decisions if they can be bothered that is. But OK, thanks for letting me know.


I raise my own chicken and the conditions are much different that those of industrial chicken farms. I know, I used to be a poultry farmer. But, I ate those birds when I raised them. Something to remember is that at times conditions on a farm can get quiet bad. During bad weather or times of illness living conditions are not optimal. That's also true with free range birds, just on a much smaller scale. Industrial farmers want happy, healthy birds because they get fatter and bring more money.

I'm probably more grossed out by what happens to the chicken after it's killed. Chicken purchased from the grocery store has water added and it makes it gross. The poultry plant can add up to 8% water weight (unless that has recently changed). That's why when you buy chicken it's all juicy and you can squeeze water out of it when it's raw. When you cook in in a pan you end up with chicken swimming in a lot of water. Real chicken that you've killed yourself doesn't feel at all like that. It feels clean, like game meat. It also has a better flavor, in my opinion. Additionally, my chickens lay eggs with dark orange yolks with a rich flavor. Market eggs have a light yellow yolk and no flavor.
Interesting story, great stuff. You make a good point actually about farmers wanting to do the best they can, this is certainly true. The power of the supermarkets is often the problem in forcing the price down, even to the point of putting farmers out of business. I work with an ex-cattle farmer who was likewise driven out of business because the profit is just not there. As was pointed out, the big move in the 60s to supermarkets has affected our landscape and eating habits greatly.


I can tell by reading these posts that most people on this forum have never been hungry. I mean really hungry, as in not knowing where the next meal is coming from and not having eaten for a while. I am sure this would change your mind about foods. Now, I am no defending the way some livestock is treated in some commercial farms, but it does make it affordable to people who could not afford it otherwise. To think that someone that has less money has no concern for the ethical treatment of animals is just wrong. If it comes between giving a chicken a good life or my children not eating, the chicken is going to lose.
I agree with Brian. The market for chicken in this country and the US is not bred for the starving populous. Chicken is produced so cheaply now that it is a throwaway product and I think this is wrong.

Certainly, it is more expensive to buy meat from animals that have been raised properly and the problem is just there – you can’t meet an ethical decision with a financial one head on, there’s going to be a difference in price. The way around this for me is to not to eat cheap meat every day or every other day, instead, I treat it as a once a week, once every two weeks affair and pay more for the better stuff. You also need to get as much from what you kill as you can. Actually, I will have managed to make about 7 individual meals from the chicken I had yesterday, so that works out at less than a pound (£1) per portion, which I don't think is too bad. I agree, just because someone has less money that it doesn’t mean they have no ethical conscious (though you should tell that to the stores around my end of town, see original post) but there are ways, like the one above, around this for sure.

At the end of the day people must make their own decisions and that is perfectly fine, but this is a lot harder if people don’t have a clue where food comes from or under what circumstances they might have been raised in.

[katelbach]

I was veggie from age 14 to 25, then vegan for a month, then a meat-eater for the past few years! Recently i've decided to cut back to just free range chicken and no other meat - just veggie the rest of time. I buy 1 or 2 chickens a week and use them to make soup so i get at least 6 meals out of each chicken, which is well worth the £7/£8 cost for the bird.


. If it comes between giving a chicken a good life or my children not eating, the chicken is going to lose.

I don't think this argument is valid at all. You don't have to eat chicken (or any meat) to live! In fact, fruit, veg, pulses, rice, pasta etc. are way cheaper than even the cheapest meat so you could feed you kids that instead.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Thanks for voting folks, interesting reading. With this and my Free Range vs "standard" Egg poll, at the moment Litnet is officially a chicken friendly site with 70% of people voting for free range/organic produce, over the other method. Keep voting if you have not done, thank you.

[JuniperWoolf]

For me, it just comes down to the fact that I straight-up can't afford a fancy organic chicken that had a nice childhood. I'm a student. I eat what costs the least.

[LitNetIsGreat]

For me, it just comes down to the fact that I straight-up can't afford a fancy organic chicken that had a nice childhood. I'm a student. I eat what costs the least.

I can understand your thinking and at first glance it appears you have a solid argument, however there are ways around this which makes buying organic, not only what I strongly consider the only acceptable option, but also to make it definitely affordable and great value for money.

If, instead of buying chicken from fast food outlets, buying chicken breasts from supermarkets, paying the extra mark-up on chicken from a range of outlets such as bars/pubs/cafes, chicken in readymade pasta pots or a range of other ready meals, you buy the whole free range chicken you can see yourself right in chicken for the entire week! If you buy a whole free range chicken, you will have enough meat for about 6 or 7 individual meals and you can use the leftovers for the best chicken stock which can be made into bucket load of great tasting soup.

Costs of chicken are obviously going to vary from place to place, but I paid £6.75 for a good size organic bird at Sainsbury’s Sunday (and I’m still got chicken pasta for lunch today). This works out at around 80-90p per delicious chicken potion, not even considering the soup I can make with what is left, which can see the whole family right in lovely homemade soup for several meals. (I think that this is pretty good value even for rip-off Britain, you could probably get it at a cheaper price.)

Not only will all this save you money, but you will be eating better quality chicken from a bird that has been reared in good, healthy conditions.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Article in today's Independent on how to make the most from a full chicken.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/features/chicken-tonight-a-single-bird-can-keep-you-in-tasty-suppers-all-through-the-week-2136930.html

[Madhuri]

You don't want to give life or better living conditions to something and then kill it. That's ironic.....maybe you want to feel less guilty of eating a dead animal.

[LitNetIsGreat]

You don't want to give life or better living conditions to something and then kill it. That's ironic.....maybe you want to feel less guilty of eating a dead animal.

I don't fully understand your meaning. I'm reading that you don't think it is necessary to give animals which you are going to eat good living conditions. People, like me, who want good (normal) living conditions for animals are therefore possibly doing so in order to feel less guilty about eating them. If this is your meaning (it could be read the other way) then I can assure you that it is not my thinking.

Certainly however, I do think that it is a big thing to have an animal killed for food which is why I eat meat sparingly. My belief that animals raised for food should be given good (normal) living conditions (the same as any animal) does not arise out of guilt, merely it arises out of not wanting to further animal abuse.

I don't understand the argument that just because you are going to eat an animal it is OK to mentally and physically abuse them beforehand. This is the difference. Anybody who doesn't think that mass produced factory farming of animals and/or in caged egg production is abuse, should seek out the relevant information and videos (conditions which are deemed too horrible to view on this forum by the moderators).

As it happens, my wife would probably agree with you. She says that "a chicken is just a chicken" and we shouldn't care about the conditions that they are kept in. I ask her if it is OK to abuse pets; dogs, cats etc, and she says "no". So, for information, I ask her to draw me a list of animals that are suitable to be abused, and a list of animals that are not suitable to be abused, and she walks away uninterested and avoids the question...

The real joke is that I am not even an "animal lover" or any sort of "activist" at all (even if I am sounding like one). Simply, I believe in the notion that we as human beings should respect each other, animals and the things around us. Plain and simple. Intense factory farming and caged egg production does not live up to this notion, far from it.

[Madhuri]

My point was similar to what Scher said.

I was referring to the act of wanting to give life and then taking it away. That is ironic. Killing is also a form of cruelty.

I wasn't trying to say that it's ok to abuse or it doesn't matter what living conditions animals live in...but, if I want something to live, I wouldn't want to kill it....

[LitNetIsGreat]

My point was similar to what Scher said.

I was referring to the act of wanting to give life and then taking it away. That is ironic. Killing is also a form of cruelty.

I wasn't trying to say that it's ok to abuse or it doesn't matter what living conditions animals live in...but, if I want something to live, I wouldn't want to kill it....

Yes, OK sorry, I did think you could have meant that, your post could have been read both ways.

See, what is annoying about this country (or at least one of the things from a very, very long list) is the way people can be ridiculously two-faced and, well, quite utterly stupid. Mrs Neely told me this morning in conversation, that an advertisement for a department store has been banned following thousands of complaints. I haven't seen it because I don't watch adverts, but apparently the complaints were directed against one particular scene where a boy puts a Christmas stocking on a dog kennel which is outside. So thousands of these morons have phoned in to complain that it is cruel to keep dogs outside in winter in a kennel (despite the fact that it is a damn advert) and they were worried about the dog (for god's sake) so the department chain have been forced to drop the advert.

All of this just leaves me shaking my head and re-newed in my ambitions to try and avoid all such stories like this, adverts, TV, the papers, the general public - but it also leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth because no doubt many of these are the same people who are furthering animal abuse, knowingly or unknowingly, by purchasing caged eggs or eating chickens/other meat which have been raised in torturous conditions. Welcome to the UK.

:banghead:

[LitNetIsGreat]

Oh, I've just stumbled across this article about chickens that might be of interest to folk. I was just quickly Googling looking for a bit of information about the chicken brain and I thought it made interesting reading.

Incidentally, I looked at the Litnet votes for this thread and the free range egg one and, although you can't make much of an assessment based on just a few votes, it did indicate that more people buy, or are willing to buy, free range eggs than free range chickens. I forget the stats (I make a lousy scientist I think) but I thought that was interesting - it was nearly double in number. Anyway, the article below via the link suggests that chickens have some sort of advanced cognitive ability. I could tell you a story my grandad told me about a chicken once but I'll leave that for another day...keep 'em curious...(besides I'm really tired).


Chickens worry about the future
Jennifer Viegas

Chickens don't just live in the present, but can anticipate the future and demonstrate self-control, something previously attributed only to humans and other primates, according to a recent study.

The finding, published in the current issue of the journal Animal Behaviour, suggests that domestic fowl (Gallus gallus domesticus) are intelligent creatures that might worry.

"An animal with no awareness of 'later' may not be able to predict the end of an unpleasant experience, such as pain, rendering [the pain] all-encompassing," says lead author Dr Siobhan Abeyesinghe.

"On the other hand, an animal that can anticipate an event might benefit from cues to aid prediction, but may also be capable of expectations rendering it vulnerable to thwarting, frustration and pre-emptive anxiety.

"The types of mental ability the animal possesses therefore dictate how they should best be managed and what we might be able to do to minimise psychological stress."

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2005/1415178.htm

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Neely,

I went ahead and voted for a chicken is a chicken, though I have nothing against free range "yard bird" (that's what we called it growing up on the southside of Dallas).
I'm just another one among the oblivious millions, who run up to the nearest store and pick up a package of "Pilgrims Pride" without giving it a second thought.
You may relish in a small victory though; I will at least give it a second thought next time I head to the market.

Gilliatt

[motherhubbard]

Interesting article. They can also be trained to do tricks, much like a dog. It's amazing what a chicken will do for a hotdog.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Neely,

I went ahead and voted for a chicken is a chicken, though I have nothing against free range "yard bird" (that's what we called it growing up on the southside of Dallas).
I'm just another one among the oblivious millions, who run up to the nearest store and pick up a package of "Pilgrims Pride" without giving it a second thought.
You may relish in a small victory though; I will at least give it a second thought next time I head to the market.

Gilliatt

Good man, you make a serious point though which is at the heart of the problem - one of habit. It's too easy to walk into a shop, buy a chicken sandwich, eat chicken pasta etc and think nothing of it, and why should we, it's the normal thing to do and (nearly) everybody else does it?

However it is only when you start to really think about where things come from and take a step back that things for me don't add up. When you start to look at the conditions which these animals are kept in, well, it is abuse.

Organic or yard birds as you call them may (or may not) be harder to get hold of and be more expensive (though you can do things to reduce the cost, see above somewhere) but every one of these bought is a vote for a much kinder and in my opinion, a much fairer, healthier system.

I would also add that in terms of caged egg production it is even worse. At least the "standard" chickens which are all crowded together at approximately 19 per sq metre are killed after about 40 days, for the caged egg producer it is a much more horrible fate. I can't imaged that in this day and age (our "civilized" age) that we lock up chickens 5 or 6 to a cage and leave them there for a year.

I would like to see the number of complaints if the advert with the dog was joined with 4 or 5 others in the kennel and was locked up for a year without allowing them out and forcing them to sit in their own feces. Hardly a nice Christmas advert, but one at least true to life in the world of chicken production.:santasmil

Motherhubbard, yes thanks, I thought it was an interesting read, I'll have to read more about chickens, becoming quite interested in the little fellows.

Edit: Arggghhh, we need more votes for the "no thanks, not under those conditions" option. Every time I look someone else votes for the other option, come on Litnet, hear what I'm sayin'.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Neely, I haven't watched your video, but being very familiar with correct chicken slaughter procedures, as well as having seen videos of the crazy crap that goes on elsewhere, I don't think it's really necessary for my argument.

I'll start by saying that I have a problem with a lot of documentaries/ slaughter footage because most people don't actually know what they're watching. Yes, if you don't know what you're seeing, it's going to look horrible and gruesome. And I think that this is a huge problem with the meat industry today- for so long, slaughter has been covered up because it's kind of gross, so people don't really know how it works. As odd as this sounds, the industry needs to open its doors and educate people about what they're doing. The slaughter procedures that are currently in place across Europe and North America (I'm less familiar with other areas so I won't make any statements there) have been established as being those that are the least stressful for the animal. Someone might see various pieces of footage that look like things they aren't and it leads them to draw very biased and uneducated conclusions (I'm not implying anyone in particular here).

As for the farming side of things, I think it's unfair to say that how we keep animals is just abuse. I'm certainly not saying that everything is perfect- it absolutely is not, but one needs to understand the reasons behind why we do the things we do. There is a ton of research behind farming chickens, in terms of nutrition, physiology, and behaviour, and extensive amounts of money are put into farming systems. Farming is their livelihood- it simply doesn't make sense for them to treat their animals like crap. In fact, the farmers I have encountered often have far more respect for the animals than those who consume them.

The housing arrangements for broiler chickens (meat birds) are not arbitrary. Extensive research has gone into establishing space requirements, cage materials, flooring type, temperature constraints, grouping arrangements, and feeding protocols. All of these things have to be weighed against welfare concerns and the fact that while animals are involved, it is still a business and must be conducted as such. Again- there are a lot of considerations that the general public are not aware of, and that is why I put it to everyone to find out if the alternative you have in mind is really a "much fairer, healthier system".

I absolutely hear what you're saying, Neely. There certainly are issues with many aspects of animal farming, but to assume that overstocking and incorrect slaughtering are the rule is not fair.

As to the question of Halal meat (and other forms of ritual slaughter), the main premise behind Halal slaughter regarding animal welfare is that the animal is not rendered unconscious before being killed. This follows the belief that the animal should feel as little pain as possible while being killed. In all other standard slaughter procedures, the animal is unconscious so it doesn't feel pain when it is killed. The Halal procedure believes that incorrect application of unconsciousness is more painful to the animal than the actual slaughter.

Personally, I don't agree with this. The majority of procedures to render the animal unconscious go directly as planned, whether it be captive bolt stunning or application of a gas. I don't agree that every animal should be made to suffer the pain of slaughter in order to save the few that aren't stunned properly.


Sorry, one more add on! haha. Just wanted to mention that in a lot of places, a free range system for breeding and/or keeping broilers is simply not an option. There would be an enormous number of deaths as when a hen's clutch hatches, her chicks are at serious risk if they are not exposed to heat and protection from other birds. Chicks will die if they are cold. There's no question of that, and if you're keeping your hens free range, there's no temperature control. Also, there's the chance that other hens will see the chicks as competition and kill them. This is all a little impractical, though, as broilers don't actually roost their eggs. As soon as the hen lays a fertilized egg, it's removed, and the eggs are all maintained mechanically until hatching.

As for raising broilers that will be going to slaughter, these birds go through three "stages" of growth, during which they will usually eat three different diets in order to maximize their growth and allow for some cost efficiency for the producer. It is in their best interest to be housed within these three age groups so as to allow them best access to/use of feed. Chickens prefer small group sizes as it decreases stress and aggression, and again, they require access to heat as they grow. Not only to they need heat, but inconsistencies in temperature are also stressful for the animal. Outdoor temperature fluctuations are detrimental to the animal's development. In this case, some sort of indoor penning system is the best option.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hello, well the video link did contain slaughter but that was not my point or intention. I also have a problem with a lot of videos from various different groups because they often have some other greater agenda. However, my only point of objection and the point I was trying to get across lies with the intensively farmed system which is used to meet the demand of the vast majority of chicken sales nationally (and across Europe and the US and elsewhere) – the “normal” method of farming chicken. When it comes to supplying the vast majority of chicken in the UK it is thought that around 93% (HFW) comes from the intensively reared chicken, which I would still maintain is something akin to animal abuse considering that these birds are intensively fed under unnatural light for 23 hours a day and, during the later stages, are kept in extremely cramped conditions (19 birds per sq metre) as well as having to continually sit in their own faeces. When you add to this the fact that in some places the birds are subject to hormone injections and god knows what else in order to increase yield then yes I have a problem with this set-up and can only see free range or the in-between method; that is more space, natural light but kept indoors, as the only fair system(s) of production.

I totally agree with you that it is unfair to blame the farming methods on individual farmers (or to put them all into one category) because it seems clear to me that pressures from the supermarkets is the main cause here. This is an over-simplification true, because supermarkets are very quick to play the “it’s what the customer demands card” and therefore putting the emphasis back onto the consumer in a vicious circle. Things can change though public pressures, though knowledge and understanding as we have seen in the sale of free range eggs in the UK which I believe is around 50/50 of sales (other thread). The problem with supermarkets Vs supply is that we have a monopoly of supermarkets in this country, and I’m sure it is similar elsewhere, which is having the effect of forcing the price so low that many producers are under extreme pressures, even going out of business, due to unfair price demands. The supermarkets have already just about ruined the dairy industry in this country and are doing the same in other areas of production.

Anyway, I realise that it is a more complex issue in switching totally to the free range option immediately, but where there is a knowledgeable consumer demand the market will open up for this method of production as in the example with the free range egg sales – where there is a demand there is a market, as economists are always saying. As with the other thread (which I have not replied as of yet but I intend to) I’m not suggesting that we let the animals fend for themselves without control, instead merely that they have access to natural light, a greater degree of space and if possible the freedom to roam and live as naturally as possible, feeding on natural food. As you say chickens prefer smaller group sizes which is why I favour small set-ups and I would question the “doabilty” of free range on a large scale anyway. However, we are a long way from even facing these issues because free range chicken sales in this country is currently as low as 5-7% of all chicken sales which is pretty pathetic. My main point is that intensively reared chicken is just not acceptable to me which is why I go out of my way to avoid it. What is clear however is that the set-up can change as in the example with egg production and the scraping of the caged system in the UK at least, so it does show that public pressure and demands can open up markets and have a huge impact of the conditions in which animals/food is produced. The problem as I see it is getting these issues out to the public and hoping that some of them will at least give a damn about it. This would be enough to get the ball rolling which in turn would make it easier and cheaper to get hold of free range meat which of course spirals the whole thing further. All of this is even without getting into the quality debate which for me is a big thing because I do not want to eat poor quality anything, I refuse, cheap simple food yes, poor quality rubbish, no.

Al-in-all I'm not saying it is a clear-cut matter, it is obviously more complex than just switching to free range which is not without problems, however for me this is the route which we should be taking because intensively reared production like the systems we have at the moment are just not acceptable.

[*Classic*Charm*]

When it comes to supplying the vast majority of chicken in the UK it is thought that around 93% (HFW) comes from the intensively reared chicken, which I would still maintain is something akin to animal abuse considering that these birds are intensively fed under unnatural light for 23 hours a day and, during the later stages, are kept in extremely cramped conditions (19 birds per sq metre) as well as having to continually sit in their own faeces. When you add to this the fact that in some places the birds are subject to hormone injections and god knows what else in order to increase yield then yes I have a problem with this set-up and can only see free range or the in-between method; that is more space, natural light but kept indoors, as the only fair system(s) of production.

I totally agree with you that it is unfair to blame the farming methods on individual farmers (or to put them all into one category) because it seems clear to me that pressures from the supermarkets is the main cause here. This is an over-simplification true, because supermarkets are very quick to play the “it’s what the customer demands card” and therefore putting the emphasis back onto the consumer in a vicious circle. Things can change though public pressures, though knowledge and understanding as we have seen in the sale of free range eggs in the UK which I believe is around 50/50 of sales (other thread). The problem with supermarkets Vs supply is that we have a monopoly of supermarkets in this country, and I’m sure it is similar elsewhere, which is having the effect of forcing the price so low that many producers are under extreme pressures, even going out of business, due to unfair price demands. The supermarkets have already just about ruined the dairy industry in this country and are doing the same in other areas of production.

Anyway, I realise that it is a more complex issue in switching totally to the free range option immediately, but where there is a knowledgeable consumer demand the market will open up for this method of production as in the example with the free range egg sales – where there is a demand there is a market, as economists are always saying. As with the other thread (which I have not replied as of yet but I intend to) I’m not suggesting that we let the animals fend for themselves without control, instead merely that they have access to natural light, a greater degree of space and if possible the freedom to roam and live as naturally as possible, feeding on natural food. As you say chickens prefer smaller group sizes which is why I favour small set-ups and I would question the “doabilty” of free range on a large scale anyway. However, we are a long way from even facing these issues because free range chicken sales in this country is currently as low as 5-7% of all chicken sales which is pretty pathetic. My main point is that intensively reared chicken is just not acceptable to me which is why I go out of my way to avoid it. What is clear however is that the set-up can change as in the example with egg production and the scraping of the caged system in the UK at least, so it does show that public pressure and demands can open up markets and have a huge impact of the conditions in which animals/food is produced. The problem as I see it is getting these issues out to the public and hoping that some of them will at least give a damn about it. This would be enough to get the ball rolling which in turn would make it easier and cheaper to get hold of free range meat which of course spirals the whole thing further. All of this is even without getting into the quality debate which for me is a big thing because I do not want to eat poor quality anything, I refuse, cheap simple food yes, poor quality rubbish, no.

Al-in-all I'm not saying it is a clear-cut matter, it is obviously more complex than just switching to free range which is not without problems, however for me this is the route which we should be taking because intensively reared production like the systems we have at the moment is just not acceptable.

I agree that battery cages are a terrible system, BUT:

-intensive feeding is not force feeding. The birds have been bred for an incredible growth potential and have a digestive system to support it. They don't suffer in eating huge amounts.
-battery cage flooring is wire mesh with some sort of tray below to catch the feces. Unless there's a buildup and very poor maintenance, the birds are not sitting in their own feces. Allowing this to happen is not in the best interests of the producer as they will lose money for filthy birds, so it's unlikely to happen.

There's something that needs to be clarified though- broilers are not raised in these cages. Broiler chickens (meat birds) are typically raised in barns, where yes, stocking density is a problem, and yes, sanitation can also be a problem. This is what is considered "intensive husbandry" in terms of meat birds. The housing system you describe in which the birds are kept a few to a cage with limited mobility are only laying birds.

Here are a couple articles for you:

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGAInfo/home/events/bangkok2007/docs/part2/2_5.pdf
http://www.ciwf.org.uk/includes/documents/cm_docs/2008/d/do_hens_suffer_in_battery_cages_1991.pdf

There are distinct differences in how laying chickens and meat chickens are kept, each with their own concerns for animal welfare. Battery cages are the system in which laying hens are kept that is being outlawed in the UK. Deep litter is the system of keeping broiler birds (and other bird species such as turkeys), and while improvements need to be made to this system as well, there will never be a switch to keeping broilers free range.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I agree that battery cages are a terrible system, BUT:

-intensive feeding is not force feeding. The birds have been bred for an incredible growth potential and have a digestive system to support it. They don't suffer in eating huge amounts.
-battery cage flooring is wire mesh with some sort of tray below to catch the feces. Unless there's a buildup and very poor maintenance, the birds are not sitting in their own feces. Allowing this to happen is not in the best interests of the producer as they will lose money for filthy birds, so it's unlikely to happen.

There's something that needs to be clarified though- broilers are not raised in these cages. Broiler chickens (meat birds) are typically raised in barns, where yes, stocking density is a problem, and yes, sanitation can also be a problem. This is what is considered "intensive husbandry" in terms of meat birds. The housing system you describe in which the birds are kept a few to a cage with limited mobility are only laying birds.

Here are a couple articles for you:

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGAInfo/home/events/bangkok2007/docs/part2/2_5.pdf
http://www.ciwf.org.uk/includes/documents/cm_docs/2008/d/do_hens_suffer_in_battery_cages_1991.pdf

There are distinct differences in how laying chickens and meat chickens are kept, each with their own concerns for animal welfare. Battery cages are the system in which laying hens are kept that is being outlawed in the UK. Deep litter is the system of keeping broiler birds (and other bird species such as turkeys), and while improvements need to be made to this system as well, there will never be a switch to keeping broilers free range.

Hi, yes I am totally aware that meat chickens are not reared in cages and are therefore marginally better off than caged egg producers. However the crammed conditions means that you can end up having around 19 birds per square metre which is almost as bad. I question the assumption that these birds don't have to sit in their own feces because in all the things I have read on this matter, and in the things I have seen, they are.

I will certainly read the links you gave (and will post stuff in return) and I once again thank you for bringing these threads up and opening up the debate, but I must go at present.

Cheers, Neely.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Here is the first of four of Hugh Fearnely-Whittingstall's outstanding documentaries on chicken production in the UK, Hugh's Chicken Run. This is must see viewing for anyone interested or uninterested in chicken production in the UK. Outstanding, must see, 5 star, oscar winning stuff, TV highlight of the decade...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6qr_jD2Og

[Paulclem]

Neely - are you actually him - Hugh Fearneley - Whittingstall? If you are he - then don't you think this self promotion has gone too far?

If you are not he... well sorry. I just wanted to check. I suspect you are not he, but you know - in the dark winter nights crouched over a monitor... you start to think odd things...

[LitNetIsGreat]

Ah, my cover of "Neely" has been uncovered. I was hoping that I could use his account to spam my self-promotion a little more so that I could get a few more fish votes (see blog 2). I must admit that the real Neely (the one you all love) is currently on a continental tour of Europe. I read recently that he demands Belgian Beer as part of his daily breakfast ritual and he insists in a grumpy Yorkshire accent, that it is served by several lusty tavern wenches. I believe he in some southern region of France or Italy and is reading lovely big thick books and basking in the sun. He also calls for nice people to play lovely piano for him while he sits back in a hammock and views the soft smiles of the Mediterranean. He is always drinking beer and Westons Organic Cider.

In the meantime he has left me in charge of his basil plants...

All the best,

Hugh. (Vote free range.)

[Paulclem]

Ah, my cover of "Neely" has been uncovered. I was hoping that I could use his account to spam my self-promotion a little more so that I could get a few more fish votes (see blog 2). I must admit that the real Neely (the one you all love) is currently on a continental tour of Europe. I read recently that he demands Belgian Beer as part of his daily breakfast ritual and he insists in a grumpy Yorkshire accent, that it is served by several lusty tavern wenches. I believe he in some southern region of France or Italy and is reading lovely big thick books and basking in the sun. He also calls for nice people to play lovely piano for him while he sits back in a hammock and views the soft smiles of the Mediterranean. He is always drinking beer and Westons Organic Cider.

In the meantime he has left me in charge of his basil plants...

All the best,

Hugh. (Vote free range.)

:lol:

Welcome Hugh.