The Iliad... Reaaaallly?

[Rores28]

So I don't get what the big deal is about this book / epic... I'm halfway through and I'm thoroughly underwhelmed. I think it is good but its falling way short of the expectations I had for it. I'm about a quarter of the way through the Odyssey and pretty much feel the same way though the Odyssey is better.

I also started reading Paradise Lost and would trade the first book from that for the whole of The Odyssey and Iliad. The Iliad just seems like an endless action movie interspersed with a pedigree of the ancient world.

Thoughts.... is its brilliance lost in translation?

[PeterL]

Thoughts.... is its brilliance lost in translation?

Usually brilliance is lost in translation. The Iliad was a a poem that was chanted, ad all of the rhythm and meter are lost. Homer was a blind poet, so he composed in a way that made it easy to keep the poem going.

[blazeofglory]

I have read Milton's Paradise Lost and found it so elegant yet I do not think this book can really allure the modern reader. I read it as a text book or else I would have never read this great classic.Of course I have the Iliad and I have tried to read this several times but I never could have the patience to complete it. I have read a little of it just because I thought I must have the knowledge of classics. It did not thrill me the way a modern novel could and I will not read it again and I feel it is a waste of time to start with an epic of this genre. It transports us to an imagined world far from our realities. I do not like a world of fantasy.

I have many modern books of fiction and nonfiction and I have no limitless time to read all the garbage that come across me.

If I read anything that is ancient I may read the Mahabharata or the Bible

[Modest Proposal]

Think about the brilliance of Paradise Lost... the complexity, the richness, the beauty... now remember that it was written nearly 400 years ago! Before computers, before type writers, heck before electricity was understood. Amazing huh? That was 400 YEARS ago.






The Iliad was written 2400 years ago...

[dfloyd]

These epic poems must be investigated and understood even before you give your opinions since these are now invalid. Read Robert Graves 'The Greek Myths' and Bulfinch's 'The Age of Fable'. Many poets and artists have celebrated these works in words, Keats in 'On Seeing Chapman's Iliad', and even Salvador Dali in his Helen of Troy series. Read about Schlieman's discovery of Troy in a book called 'Gods, Graves, and Scholars'. Schlieman, a German merchant millionaire, discovered and excavated the site of Troy in the late 19th century, and stole many artifacts and gold jewelry from the site in what is now Turkey. He left his treasures in a museum in Berlin which was ramsacked by the Soviets at the end of WWII. Only recently, these invaluable artifacts have been on display by the Soviets, but they're not giving them back to Germany. Schlieman is often called the father of archeology.

Many have translated these poems in both rhyme and prose. Lawrence of Arabia carried a copy of The Odyssey throughout his WWI adventures and did a prose translation. I prefer the rhyme translations, especially those into English done by the 18th century translator, Alexander Pope.

Finally, it is only valid to criticize these important epics of Greek thought when you have thoroughly investigated them. From these criticisms, it appears you have little understanding of your subject, so nothing you say has validity. They (your opinions) are only those of one or several who have no real understanding of their subject.

[JuniperWoolf]

The reason The Illiad is cool is because it's so damn old. It's the oldest story that we have that's been written in an alphabet (I had a prof who thought that the ancient Greek alphabet was invented in the first place just for the purpose of recording the works of Homer). When you read The Illiad, you're reading the same story and thinking about the same things that people heard and thought about over 2800 years ago, which is pretty neat.

[stlukesguild]

So I don't get what the big deal is about this book / epic... I'm halfway through and I'm thoroughly underwhelmed. I think it is good but its falling way short of the expectations I had for it. I'm about a quarter of the way through the Odyssey and pretty much feel the same way though the Odyssey is better.

And...? The Iliad didn't live up to your expectations? What does that prove? You weren't blown away by an accepted classic the first time you read it? Since when is a first experience of a given work of art the ultimate test of merit? Since when do we judge a work of art according to our preconceived notions/expectations of what we thought it was going to be like or should be like? If The Iliad didn't do it for you, fine. It's not the end of the world. We all have works that are accepted classics that fail to work for us. Just don't confuse your personal experience ("I don't like it") with an objective judgment ("It's not all that good"). You may find that at some later time the work does indeed speak to you... or not.

There is no need to defend The Iliad or The Odyssey, however. Homer's position in literature is pretty well established and assured continued relevance owing to far more the simple fact that they are old. The fact that this or that the works do not resonate with this or that individual is largely irrelevant, and unlikely to undermine the continued stature of the works as "classics" deserving of the title. The tales told resonate throughout literary history... in the works of endless other poets, playwrights, novelists, and writers of nearly every ilk... as do the characters, and the various formal poetic structures.

Again, do not fret your response... move on and continue reading... but be open to returning to the books again with the possibility that your opinions may very much change.

[ladderandbucket]

The Iliad seems unbearably tragic to me. The inanity of such a huge war over one man's pride, the helplessness of Helen before the workings of Aphrodite, the consequences of Achilles' petulance, the Gods' incomprehension of human mortality... I do think it is one of the greatest storys ever and very relevant to our own lives.

The problem with reading the thing is that is is so long and so repetitive. I read the Robert Fagles version which may not be the most accurate translation but is very accessible and a masterpiece in its own right. Some of the writing is so vivid I remember feeling, near the start of the book, that I was was reading something incredible. But the battle scenes are so gruelling, after 50, 100 pages of non stop violence it really becomes mind numbing. A spear through the gut, a fractured skull, another decapitation...yawn...tell me something to get my attention! Perhaps this is the intention - to convey the mindlessness of war, but I think you need a lot of stamina to read it any more than a chapter at a time and retain concentration. I heard the ancient Greeks used to have parties where they would recite it over two days. I can only imagine how tedious that could be.

Like a previous poster said, the more you know of the ancient Greek world the more it will add. There are so many incidental lines which tie it in to the wider corpus of Greek mythology. I am halfway through Robert Graves's Greek Myths. When I'm through with that I will read Sophocles, Aeschylus, Euripides and then reread the Iliad and the Odyssey. I am expecting it to be quite a different experience.

[prendrelemick]

I found the Illiad a "grower" like one of those songs you don't like at first but slowly grows on you until it becomes a favorite.

[JBI]

It reads better out loud. The vision of the words really carries a certain quality that is lost when reading with just the eyes.

[PeterL]

The reason The Illiad is cool is because it's so damn old. It's the oldest story that we have that's been written in an alphabet (I had a prof who thought that the ancient Greek alphabet was invented in the first place just for the purpose of recording the works of Homer). When you read The Illiad, you're reading the same story and thinking about the same things that people heard and thought about over 2800 years ago, which is pretty neat.

The Gilgamesh epic is older; the oldest extant copy was written even before the siege of Troy.

[Rores28]

Think about the brilliance of Paradise Lost... the complexity, the richness, the beauty... now remember that it was written nearly 400 years ago! Before computers, before type writers, heck before electricity was understood. Amazing huh? That was 400 YEARS ago.






The Iliad was written 2400 years ago...

Right and this is sorta what I'm suspecting....that the Iliad is receiving a handicap for being so old. I'm not doubting that it was impressive when composed, or that its an invaluable historical artifact but whether or not something like Paradise Lost or Hamlet was written hundreds of years ago or yesterday they would still be ****ing awesome. I just don't think the same could be said about the Iliad. To me its like comparing the Sistine Chapel to a cave painting.


I found the Illiad a "grower" like one of those songs you don't like at first but slowly grows on you until it becomes a favorite.

This is what I'm hoping... I didn't like Moby Dick till about 3/4 through and then about a month after I was done I loved it.


These epic poems must be investigated and understood even before you give your opinions since these are now invalid. Read Robert Graves 'The Greek Myths' and Bulfinch's 'The Age of Fable'. Many poets and artists have celebrated these works in words, Keats in 'On Seeing Chapman's Iliad', and even Salvador Dali in his Helen of Troy series. Read about Schlieman's discovery of Troy in a book called 'Gods, Graves, and Scholars'. Schlieman, a German merchant millionaire, discovered and excavated the site of Troy in the late 19th century, and stole many artifacts and gold jewelry from the site in what is now Turkey. He left his treasures in a museum in Berlin which was ramsacked by the Soviets at the end of WWII. Only recently, these invaluable artifacts have been on display by the Soviets, but they're not giving them back to Germany. Schlieman is often called the father of archeology.

Many have translated these poems in both rhyme and prose. Lawrence of Arabia carried a copy of The Odyssey throughout his WWI adventures and did a prose translation. I prefer the rhyme translations, especially those into English done by the 18th century translator, Alexander Pope.

Finally, it is only valid to criticize these important epics of Greek thought when you have thoroughly investigated them. From these criticisms, it appears you have little understanding of your subject, so nothing you say has validity. They (your opinions) are only those of one or several who have no real understanding of their subject.

The problem is I do have a fair deal of background knowledge. I've listened to various college level lecture series on these subjects and while it adds to the historical mystique I can't say it alleviates the sea of drudgery that is, as pointed out by another poster, spear through the head, crushed hip bone, Bob the father of Rob son of Gill who had the sister Ariel daughter or Lilly ad infinitum / nauseum. Once again I think it is good, just not outstanding. Maybe Homer should have had a better editor. I think the problem was my expectations were way way to high when I came into it, plus without Brad Pitt's sexy rendition of Achilles......

[JCamilo]

You do not read the Iliad, you read translations of the Iliad, Homer is lost to us. And yes, it is a selection of battle scenes, Homer basicaly created the hollywood action movie (which made impossible to not laugh of hollywood incapacity to adapt it, I do not believe that crap recent movie can raise the expectation of anyone so high, plus the movie is not an adaptation of Iliad, but of all stories reggarding Troy.).I do not think the background is so relevant either. It is a bit typical of those war epics - a sequence of battles - you may find it in Roland Song for example - the reason? For the same reason people go to football games and sing the same musics - those are poems used to celebrate a war. Soldier Jack can feel much better after a day of battle, relax, hearing Achilles and Hector fighting.
Thus, yes, the first form of poetry was Heavy Metal.

[Rores28]

There is no need to defend The Iliad or The Odyssey, however. Homer's position in literature is pretty well established and assured continued relevance owing to far more the simple fact that they are old. The fact that this or that the works do not resonate with this or that individual is largely irrelevant, and unlikely to undermine the continued stature of the works as "classics" deserving of the title. The tales told resonate throughout literary history... in the works of endless other poets, playwrights, novelists, and writers of nearly every ilk... as do the characters, and the various formal poetic structures.



This was disappointing as well. There are so many references to ancient Greek Literature in works that I do like, that I thought returning to the source would be very rewarding... and it hasn't been so far :sad:

I may look into the Pope translation.... I'm jumping between Fitzgerald and Fagles right now.

[Modest Proposal]

Right and this is sorta what I'm suspecting....that the Iliad is receiving a handicap for being so old. I'm not doubting that it was impressive when composed, or that its an invaluable historical artifact but whether or not something like Paradise Lost or Hamlet was written hundreds of years ago or yesterday they would still be ****ing awesome. I just don't think the same could be said about the Iliad. To me its like comparing the Sistine Chapel to a cave painting.

No. Sorry. 'The Iliad' doesn't receive a "handicap" for being old. I was merely pointing out ONE of the aspects of its capacity to astonish. No one would say that Milton's audacity in Paradise Lost is merely impressive because it was one of the first of its kind. It's the genius that it takes to do something so incredible with little precedent combined with the innate genius of the thing itself that astonishes us. As I'm sure others were going to point out what I would call the "innate genius" of 'The Iliad' I was merely going to supplement it with a historicity that I find continually inspiring.

Also, I was hoping that you could try and expand your expectations. It is easy growing up in a purely western tradition of painting--though to be perfectly honest, this is misleading--to miss a different tradition of, say, Japanese painting with very different forms and modes. Observing the project, the expectations, the affect and the general context of 'The Iliad', it is a strange thing to say something like "I can't believe no one ever noticed that this isn't as exciting as Chuck Palahniuk!"(not that you were). This second aspect of my original post was trying to point out that since your tastes are in many ways constructed by the world you live in, it will take some personal work to try and see what it is so many of these authors you presumably respect saw in Homer.

[Drkshadow03]

So I don't get what the big deal is about this book / epic... I'm halfway through and I'm thoroughly underwhelmed. I think it is good but its falling way short of the expectations I had for it. I'm about a quarter of the way through the Odyssey and pretty much feel the same way though the Odyssey is better.

I also started reading Paradise Lost and would trade the first book from that for the whole of The Odyssey and Iliad. The Iliad just seems like an endless action movie interspersed with a pedigree of the ancient world.

Thoughts.... is its brilliance lost in translation?

I also preferred The Odyssey to the Iliad. In fact, your objections were exactly what bothered me. It felt like an endless action movie. One thing I did note, however, as I've continued my reading through various literary works is it's not the Iliad. It's me and my own interests that are the problem; I have a lot of trouble with war narratives that spend a lot of time on the details of fighting and military life. I almost always find stories about interpersonal relationships between people to be what interests me.

Nevertheless, even though I understand where you're coming from, I think you're selling the Iliad short. I'm not going to bash you over the head "by reminding you incessantly of its unassailable place in the mighty super-duper literary Canon so how dare you possibly have your own opinion you little peon" approach. If you didn't like it, you didn't like it, and no amount of telling you how important the work is will convince you otherwise.

However, I do think it might be useful to talk about what others still find valuable in the Iliad. I had a friend from my English grad days who told me he did readings of The Iliad and Odyssey out loud during parties. He would read the stirring passages out loud and told me often he would find himself and his audience in tears.

Yes, I think first and foremost it's importance is historic in the way you can learn a lot about Greek values of the time. Nevertheless, I think the story still speaks to heroism in a broader sense that still applies today.

Achilles sacrifice between a long life with no glory and in which no one will remember him or a short life full of glory that will be remembered forever is as poignant as any decision or indecision Hamlet faces. Agamemnon's poor decision of confiscating Achilles' war prize and enraging one of his best soldiers proves almost to be a fatal mistake for his military cause. In other words, I think plenty of people can relate to the idea of having a boss who is more interested throwing around his weight and taking his privileges at your expense than properly managing to the benefit of everyone in a business. I think there is a ton within the epic poem that a modern person can relate as well as a lot you can learn about the values of the culture by reading it.

[hillwalker]

I'm not sure if your comment about Homer's editor was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I'm hoping perhaps it was. Or were you imagining him sitting at his laptop e-mailing chapters to his publisher?

Unless we are contemporaries of his it is unlikely we can ever appreciate much of what he referred to anyway, and as has already been said the translation misses out much of the lyricism of the language and its original poetic form.

But surely its significance as one of the oldest works in western literature means it has to have some value. And I'm not saying it has to be good because it's old - using that as the only reason why it should be considered sacrosanct is in itself sacrilegious. Age has nothing to do with it - context has everything to do with it. The fact that it records ancient history passed down by word of mouth and that was in danger of being forgotten; of past events and a lost age when mythology was taken as fact, makes it rather special and is probably a truer window on those times than a Hollywood movie could even hope to be.

A 21st century student criticising the Iliad because it is not an easy read is rather like saying you don't appreciate the 'Mona Lisa' because she's not that hot looking and could have smartened herself up a bit before getting herself painted.


H

[Rores28]

Achilles sacrifice between a long life with no glory and in which no one will remember him or a short life full of glory that will be remembered forever is as poignant as any decision or indecision Hamlet faces. Agamemnon's poor decision of confiscating Achilles' war prize and enraging one of his best soldiers proves almost to be a fatal mistake for his military cause. In other words, I think plenty of people can relate to the idea of having a boss who is more interested throwing around his weight and taking his privileges at your expense than properly managing to the benefit of everyone in a business. I think there is a ton within the epic poem that a modern person can relate as well as a lot you can learn about the values of the culture by reading it.

True I enjoyed the beginning alot... and though I haven't gotten yet to the ending I of course am familiar... both have poignant universal human themes. My main complaint is all the detritus that seems to litter these otherwise resonant moments.

The Odyssey doesn't seem to suffer from that problem.

I guess this is more what I'm asking though... what did people who liked it enjoy. What parts can you recall to mind easily even if you haven't read it in years?

[Rores28]

I'm not sure if your comment about Homer's editor was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I'm hoping perhaps it was. Or were you imagining him sitting at his laptop e-mailing chapters to his publisher?

ROFLMAO that technology didn't exist... He was obviously using a desk top 733t H4xx0rs 4E>er


A 21st century student criticising the Iliad because it is not an easy read is rather like saying you don't appreciate the 'Mona Lisa' because she's not that hot looking and could have smartened herself up a bit before getting herself painted.


This isn't my issue with the text though. If anything my complaint is that a large portion of the plot is numbingly simplistic and seems similar to much of the mindless violence portrayed in modern day action movies.

[mal4mac]

The problem with reading the thing is that is is so long and so repetitive. I read the Robert Fagles version which may not be the most accurate translation but is very accessible and a masterpiece in its own right.

I disagree about Fagles. I gave it up and read Rieu's version. I was reading Shakespeare at the same time and I think that showed Fagles up as a far inferior poet. Rieu's unpretentious prose version was livable with. No doubt Homer is as great a poet as Shakespeare, but I think it would take me a lifetime to learn sufficient Ancient Greek to "see" that. And I ain't got a lifetime left :(

[Rores28]

It's the genius that it takes to do something so incredible with little precedent combined with the innate genius of the thing itself that astonishes us.


Of course it is incredibly impressive to have done this with so little precedent. But I don't go around creaming my pants every time I see 20inch dubs or a campfire. Or is it 22 inch dubs now? As I say historically, invaluable, as literature I'm still less convinced.

It doesn't even seem like the same person wrote the Odyssey and the Iliad.

Also, to be clear, when you say it receives no handicap for its age, you are saying you do not think it receives such an extreme handicap as would catapult it into so revered a place in the canon and not that it literally receives no handicap. Is that right? Or are you saying no handicap whatsoever.

[Baharat-Cin]

there is no comparison between something that was written when the world that we now know as western did not really exist. or better said: did not know that it existed. try to compare literature of ancient times with literature of ancient times. and yes, times back then were harsh and war is war, nowadays too, when soldiers invade and just kill merciless.

[Rores28]

I disagree about Fagles. I gave it up and read Rieu's version. I was reading Shakespeare at the same time and I think that showed Fagles up as a far inferior poet. Rieu's unpretentious prose version was livable with. No doubt Homer is as great a poet as Shakespeare, but I think it would take me a lifetime to learn sufficient Ancient Greek to "see" that. And I ain't got a lifetime left :(

This is where I imagine a lot of the problem lies for me. Homer probably killed it in Greek and I just wonder if Fagles and Fitzgerald aren't killing Homer.

**For some of the older forum members, "killed it!" is often used colloquially as a laudatory exclamation**

Maybe my question is this: When you are reading these long war scenes that inarguably compose vast oceans of the Iliad, are you enjoying it? Are you basking in the beauty and poignancy and contextual knowledge gained? Are you happy you are reading this instead of hundreds of other canonized works? I just can't find anything interesting in these passages is there something? In Moby Dick I couldn't get down with the long portions of whale encyclopedia that comprise the middle of the book. Then I developed an understanding for the metaphor and those passages became extremely engaging. Is there some sort of literary "key" that would unlock these passages?

[Rores28]

You do not read the Iliad, you read translations of the Iliad, Homer is lost to us. And yes, it is a selection of battle scenes, Homer basicaly created the hollywood action movie (which made impossible to not laugh of hollywood incapacity to adapt it, I do not believe that crap recent movie can raise the expectation of anyone so high, plus the movie is not an adaptation of Iliad, but of all stories reggarding Troy.).I do not think the background is so relevant either. It is a bit typical of those war epics - a sequence of battles - you may find it in Roland Song for example - the reason? For the same reason people go to football games and sing the same musics - those are poems used to celebrate a war. Soldier Jack can feel much better after a day of battle, relax, hearing Achilles and Hector fighting.
Thus, yes, the first form of poetry was Heavy Metal.

This is an interesting perspective, and I'm not using interesting in its vaguely euphemistic sense.

[stlukesguild]

Right and this is sorta what I'm suspecting....that the Iliad is receiving a handicap for being so old. I'm not doubting that it was impressive when composed, or that its an invaluable historical artifact but whether or not something like Paradise Lost or Hamlet was written hundreds of years ago or yesterday they would still be ****ing awesome. I just don't think the same could be said about the Iliad. To me its like comparing the Sistine Chapel to a cave painting.

Ummm... no. Literature is not afforded a handicap simply upon the basis of age. There are other poets of the era, albeit only fragments have survived of many: Tyrtaeus, Theognis, Solon, Semonides of Amorgos, Archilochus, Hipponax, Alcaeus, Sappho, Anacreon, Alcman, Ibycus, and Stesichorus, Pindar, Simonides of Ceos, Bacchylides, Herodotus, and Hesiod. Homer (or the Homeric poems) were clearly revered early on as can be gleaned from quotations as well as the commentaries by other writers, including figures such as Plato and Aristotle. The Homeric poems served as a source of inspiration and/or a model for the classical Greek theater, for Virgil, Ovid, Dante, Spenser, Milton, even James Joyce and Derreck Walcott. This is not something that is simply achieved as a result of age.

The notion that Hamlet or Paradise Lost would be immediately recognized as masterpieces if written today as opposed to the Homeric Poems ignores the fact that Hamlet was not recognized immediately as a masterpiece when it was written (it wasn't even published). It also ignores the fact that it is quite likely that any work as audacious and innovative as Hamlet or Paradise Lost will uncertainly prove challenging to a great many readers. Finally, it ignores the fact that the Homeric poems were probably every bit (if not more so) popular with the audiences of the time and revered by the critics, writers, and other experts in literature. Your own personal preference for Milton should not be mistaken for fact.

As for the analogy of the Sistine vs the Lascaux cave paintings... this is far from a fair analogy. The paintings of Lascaux are indeed primitive (albeit impressive to a certain extent) in comparison to the Sistine... but the paintings of Lascaux... the product of a pre-literate and pre-civilized humanity is not a fair comparison with the masterwork of the Italian Renaissance. Instead, should we not look to such masterworks of ancient Greek art as

the Parthenon:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4151/5176078464_2bde7abe51_b.jpg

and the sculpture from the Parthenon:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/5175472421_70d6f20f02_b.jpg

the other structures of the Acropolis:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5175472311_efdb98132e_b.jpg

Praxiteles:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5176078890_1b1f7168f1.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5175472485_97f2d010ec_b.jpg

Pergamon:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5175472619_d76df4154d_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5175472741_807dfd77bc.jpg

the sculpture of Mausolus:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5176079232_102e3372be.jpg

or any number of anonymous masters in Bronze and marble:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5176079148_b09d0668e9.jpg

The reason these works have survived and continue to resonate with audiences and inspire artists is not because they are old... but because they are damn good.

[Seasider]

I love The Iliad and may favourite is Book 6. Here Hector the great champion of the Trojans is preparing for his final battle with Achilles; he has a foreboding that he will be defeated. He goes to take his leave of his wife Andromache and their infant son. This part of Dryden's translation:-

His tender Wife, stood weeping by the while:
Prest in her own, his Warlike hand she took,
Then sighed and thus prophetically spoke.
Thy dauntless Heart( which I foresee too late)
Too daring Man will urge thee to thy Fate:
Nor dost thou pity with a Parent's mind,
This helpless Orphan that thou leav'st behind;
Nor me, the unhappy Partner of they Bed
Who must in triumph by the Greeks be led;
They seek thy Life an in unequal Fight
With many will oppress thy single Might.
Better it were for miserable me
To die before the Fate which I foresee.
For ah, what comfort can the World bequeath
To Hector's Widow, after Hector's Death?

They continue to talk and he tells her that much as he loves her and his son he must continue to fight for his honour and the honour of Troy which he represents. Then there is a lovely scene which as relevant today as it was when it was written, He stretches out his arms to take his infant son...but

The fearful infant turned his Head away
And on his Nurse's Neck reclining ,lay.
His unknown Father shunning with affright
And looking back on so uncouth a sight;
Daunted to see a Face with Steel o're-spread
And his high Plume that nodded o're his head.
His Sire and Mother smiled with silent joy
And Hector hastened to relieve his Boy.
Dismissed his burnished Helm that shone afar
(The Pride of Warriors and the Pomp of War)
The Illustrious Babe thus reconciled he took
Hugged in his arms and kissed.......


Then to the Mother's arms the child restored;
With Tears and Smiles she took her son and pressed
The Illustrious Infant to her Fragrant Breast.
He wiping her fair eyes indulged her Grief
And eased her Sorrows with this last relief.
My Wife and Mistress drive thy Fears away
Nor give so bad an Omen to the Day'
Think not it lies in any Grecian's Power
To take my Life before the fatal Hour
When that arrives, nor good nor bad can fly
The Irrevocable Doom of Destiny
Return and to divert thy thoughts at home
There task thy maids and exercise the loom
Employed in Works that Womankind becomes.
The Toils of War and Feats of Chivalry
Belong to Men and most of all to me.
At this, for new Replies he did not stay.
But laced his Crested Helm and strode away.


How many thousands of years and wars have happened since that soldier said goodbye to his wife and child? I cried when I first read it and it still has the power to move me..

[Rores28]

Yes a powerful passage... although this translation seems vastly superior compared to the two that I have read. This seems like more of the "feel" I like.

[JCamilo]

Simplicity of plot is not a problem either. Matter of fact, in XIX century Poe pointed that excessive elements on a narrative would damage it, thus the writer should aim an absolute effect. Considering the chapters of Homer were "put" together much latter, it is easy to understand each chapter was an absolute effect. Our age is filled with the unity of plot from novels, several characters or events on sequence, which are by some accident of destiny are happening in that single way. Homer and many other early storytellers had no such aim, so you can not find it in his work.

[Rores28]

The notion that Hamlet or Paradise Lost would be immediately recognized as masterpieces if written today as opposed to the Homeric Poems ignores the fact that Hamlet was not recognized immediately as a masterpiece when it was written (it wasn't even published).

I guess that's the real tragedy:biggrin5:

It's interesting though, I had not heard that before.



As for the analogy of the Sistine vs the Lascaux cave paintings... this is far from a fair analogy. The paintings of Lascaux are indeed primitive (albeit impressive to a certain extent) in comparison to the Sistine... but the paintings of Lascaux... the product of a pre-literate and pre-civilized humanity is not a fair comparison with the masterwork of the Italian Renaissance. Instead, should we not look to such masterworks of ancient Greek art as


Admittedly I'm being somewhat polemical in order to foment responses.. but on a side note: I want to go on vacation to Greece and my girlfriend wants to go to Spain. How do I convince her that my choice is better. All the art in Spain is crap right?

Those pics really made me wanna go to Greece all the more.

[Rores28]

Simplicity of plot is not a problem either. Matter of fact, in XIX century Poe pointed that excessive elements on a narrative would damage it, thus the writer should aim an absolute effect. Considering the chapters of Homer were "put" together much latter, it is easy to understand each chapter was an absolute effect. Our age is filled with the unity of plot from novels, several characters or events on sequence, which are by some accident of destiny are happening in that single way. Homer and many other early storytellers had no such aim, so you can not find it in his work.

Another piece of info I had not considered / known about.... keep dropping these knowledge bombs on me...

[Seasider]

The translation I quoted is by John Dryden 1631- 1700. He only published his translation of Book 1 and Book 6
There is also a wonderful translation by Alexander Pope 1688-1744 who translated it all and The Odyssey as well.

[stlukesguild]

Admittedly I'm being somewhat polemical in order to foment responses.. but on a side note: I want to go on vacation to Greece and my girlfriend wants to go to Spain. How do I convince her that my choice is better. All the art in Spain is crap right?

I think either would be equally fascinating and laden with more than enough art, although I personally would lean toward Spain.

Greece was home to two great cultures: Classical or Ancient Greece and the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire. Unfortunately, Greece also fell prey to the subjugation of two conquering powers that resulted in the pillage and destruction of much of the finest art of the Greeks. The Romans pillaged much of the finest Greek art (as well as the finest Greek craftsmen). Later the Turks took control following the fall of Constantinople and a great portion of that which was not already stolen by the Romans or destroyed was taken by various Western powers (France, Germany, England). As a result, much of the finest Greek art is now found outside of Greece:

The British Museum is perhaps the finest repository of Greek Art with the famous "Elgin Marbles" from the Parthenon:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1430/5183480468_3c387f9e77_b.jpg

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http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1014/5183480242_36c04c135a_b.jpg

Add to this numerous other marvelous classical sculptural groups, including most importantly a great portion of the remains of the great The Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, which was one of the 7 Wonders of the Ancient World:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4153/5183480636_1a96e7771d.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1006/5182881337_e20ebba2dd_b.jpg

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Germany houses the great Hellenistic Temple of Pergamon:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1285/5183483242_67c278d7f3_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1431/5183483324_412f36d693_z.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1267/5182884385_b8dda8c5d2_b.jpg

continued...

[stlukesguild]

The Louvre holds the Venus de Milo and the Winged Venus of Samothrace:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5182884117_15b0099bff_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5182883989_1c8dca31ee_b.jpg

The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston contains the delicate Aphrodite of Chios, possibly by that greatest of Greek sculptors, Praxiteles:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/5182881905_c6d1ca4c97.jpg

And of course the great Laocoon group is in the Vatican:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1421/5183484488_cfbb164f2f_b.jpg

This is not to suggest that Greece does not hold its own share of splendours. Most importantly, they have the most complete grouping by Praxiteles... the sensuous Hermes with the Infant Dionysus.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1275/5182934051_a13c7f1a28_b.jpg

And there are any number of other marvelous sculptural groupings, such as this humorous scene of Aphrodite whacking the horny satyr with her slipper:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1296/5182934205_8265ef30ee.jpg

Greece also houses a great majority of the classical Greek bronzes... most of which were discovered only recently off the coast of the Greek islands in sunken ships. These offer some of the finest look at Greek sculptural art, as opposed to the later, often stiff, Roman copies:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5182934103_abd881e45d_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/5183533102_9e81bbea67_z.jpg

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The art of the Byzantine Empire suffered a similar pillaging. Like the Romans, the Venetians sacked Constantinople and made off with much of the finest examples of Byzantine art and artists... most notably the great horses now before San Marco, in Venice:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1425/5183555262_f6b607e157_b.jpg

One must also face the fact that much of the finest Byzantine art being produced in the capitol of Constantinople, was lost, destroyed, or is currently held in the now-Turkish city of Istanbul. One might also recognize that Ravenna... in Italy... was the second great site of Byzantine art.

continued...

[stlukesguild]

Spain, like Greece, can claim two great cultures: that of Islamic Spain, and that of the later world power of Catholic Spain of the "Golden Age".

Yehuda Halevi or Yehuda ben Shemuel Ha-Levi c. 1075-1141

Medieval Moorish Spain was one of the most fabulous cultures of all history. The Moorish culture in what is today Morocco dates back to the time of the Roman Empire (and perhaps earlier) when they acted as trading partners with Carthage, the independent city-state founded by the Phoenicians and competitor/enemy of Rome. Following the destruction of Carthage the surrounding provinces were integrated into the Roman Empire and later Christianized. With the fall of the Roman Empire the Byzantine Empire, the Vandals and the Arabs all struggled to gain control of the Moors. Around 600 A.D. the region was brought under Arab-Islamic control. In 711, the now Moslem Moors conquered the Visigoths taking possession of the Iberian Peninsula and pushed well into France until eventually defeated by Charles Martel at the decisive Battle of Tours (or Battle of Poitiers). The Moslem forces continued to hold control of most of what is today Spain and Portugal and many of the native population converted to Islam. Nevertheless, a number of Christian-European city-states continued to initiate conflict with the Moors and to slowly push into Spanish-Muslim territories. In 1212 a coalition under Alfonso VIII of Castille pushed the Muslims out of central Spain. Nevertheless, they would hold out in the south until 1492 when the last Moslem stronghold in Granada fell to the Christian forces. With the "reconquista" of Spain by Christian forces there began a period of forced conversion to Catholicism shortly after Isabella and Ferdinand instituted the Inquisition in 1480. Not only was the Inquisition directed at Jews and Muslims who had overtly converted to Christianity but were thought to be practicing their faiths secretly... but also it was geared toward Protestants or other "heretics" who rejected Roman Catholic orthodoxy. The persecution lead to a mass exodus leading to a population loss of about 1/3rd by 1600. It also resulted is a mass destruction of culture... a burning of books numbering in perhaps in the millions... including in many cases unique copies of texts from ancient Hebrew, Arabic, Persian, and even the Greco-Roman cultures.

From the tenth century A.D. until the final fall of Granada Moorish Spain or Arab Andalusia would represent one of the great cultures and great cultural experiments in history. In spite of the Moslem control, there was a religious tolerance so that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all flourished. Intellectual concepts and beliefs of these three religions and the artistic ideas of the east and west were interwoven in the hot house environment of Arab Andalusia. Among the great artistic achievements of the era one might point first to the marvelous art and architecture of Seville and Granada... especially as found in Alhambra, the fantastic palace complex of the Moorish rulers and once proclaimed the beautiful city in the world:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k255/Stlukesguild/IlAlcazar-Seville19.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k255/Stlukesguild/Alhambra2sm.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k255/Stlukesguild/AlcazarSevillesm.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k255/Stlukesguild/Mosque_of_Cordoba_Spain.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k255/Stlukesguild/Court_of_lions_in_Palacio_Nazariess.jpg

Islamic Spain produced a wealth of marvelous illuminated manuscripts:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5182988789_1a75207f75_z.jpg

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The brilliantly colored visionary book illuminations of the period are what Umberto alludes to in his novel, The Name of the Rose.

Beyond the visual arts, Arab Andalusia would inspire fabulous innovations in literature (Poem of the Cid, Solomon ibn Gabriol, Moses ibn Ezra, etc...) and music. The music of the Sephardic Jews would merge ancient Hebrew traditions with Arabic, Turkish, Persian, Greek, North African, etc. Attempts by the Jewish composer, Isaac Nathan in the early nineteenth century to revive some of this ancient music would serve as an impetus for Lord Byron's Hebrew Melodies. The German poet, Heinrich Heine's Hebrew Melodies were also rooted in the music of Arab Andalusia... but also the poetry of the great Spanish Hebrew poets, especially Jehuda Halevi.

Following the collapse of Islamic Spain, Catholic Spain soon rose to a position of unrivaled wealth and power as a result of its conquests (and pillaging) of the "New World". The rise of Spain was precipitated by the Venetian sack of Constantinople which led to the weakening and eventual fall of this great city to Turkish forces and the closing of the usual trade routes to the East. By the Baroque era... the "Golden Age of Spain"... the Spanish were leading figures in literature (Gongora, Cervantes, Calderon, San Juan de la Cruz), in music (Domenico Scarlatti, Gaspar Sanz, Cristóbal de Morales, Tomás Luis de Victoria) and in the visual arts (El Greco, Zurbaran, Murillo, and most importantly, Velasquez). The Spanish court also collected many of the greatest European painters. The collection in the Prado is one of the finest in the world, housing the vast majority of paintings by Spanish masters such as El Greco...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1427/5183055115_0e9fab6032_b.jpg

Zurbaran...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1302/5183055297_e81a6ce4c4_b.jpg

Velasquez...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1294/5183653656_4088e4b65e_b.jpg

and Goya...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4086/5183055505_29e520b062_b.jpg

continued...

[stlukesguild]

But the Prado is also home to some of the finest examples of painting by many of the Flemish masters... including Rogier van der Weyden...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1044/5183654186_1c2475a264_b.jpg

Heironymus Bosch...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1299/5183653882_a2d35ee962_b.jpg

Pieter Brughel...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1004/5183075459_3f8975a258_b.jpg

and Peter Paul Rubens...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/5183056053_58a4705b6d_b.jpg

The Prado also houses important paintings by German and Italian painters. They have, for example, the largest collection of paintings by Titian...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4083/5183055727_73e30d8eb5_b.jpg

The Prado rivals the Louvre, the Hermitage, the Uffizi, and the Met in the scale and quality of its art collections.

But the art of Spain doesn't stop there. Spain would become a leading player in 20th century arts. Poets include Antonio Machado, Federigo Garcia-Lorca, Miguel Hernandez, Rafael Alberti, Jorge Guillen, etc... while in the visual arts we have Dali...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5183056165_75108b5b42.jpg

Joan Miro...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1422/5183056081_ba4d2d6cc0_b.jpg

Antoni Tapies...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4083/5183056195_f6a581a62b_z.jpg

Antonio Lopez-Garcia...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1032/5183056249_f7d6589984_z.jpg

And of course, the figure who towered over the whole of 20th century art: Pablo Picasso:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1011/5183056125_4475683c11_b.jpg

It doesn't appear to be a clean-sweep by the Greeks after all.

[prendrelemick]

Anyway The Illiad. I don't think it requires any handicap because of its age. It is as in tune with modern thought as it has been through all ages. Its subject is the pity of war as much as Wilfred Owen's was. It's a celebration of courage and sacrifice. a story of beggars and Kings. Man is shown in all his glory and shame, more magnificent than the Gods, and lower than the lowest beast.

My favorite translation is E V Rieu's, I always find it somehow uplifting.

[mal4mac]

Yeah Rieu's translation of the Iliad is good, but I prefer his Odyssey - he translated it aloud to read to his family to keep their mind off the London Blitz. Then he used it to catapult Penguin books to fame. He started on a translation of the Bible, but Penguin chickened out. I just wish he had got to continue with that... at least with an abridged version!

[Seasider]

@StLuke'sGuild
Thank you very much. What a feast for the eye and the soul.

[mortalterror]

You just can't beat that opening. Literally translated it's "Wrath sing goddess the son of Peleus." Homer starts a 15,000 line poem, and the first word is his theme. The next tells you what genre his story is in. Then he identifies the protagonists, gods and Achilles, bringing a tension between the mortal and immortality. I picked up a copy a few weeks ago and before I knew it I was already 20 pages in. The thing takes off like a shot with such power and fluidity!

I remember I asked a professor once why every time two warriors went to fight they had to announce their pedigrees. He explained that what the warriors were doing was showing themselves to be worthy opponents with an aristocratic and noble lineage. This was no nameless peasant they could scorn to fight in equal combat. Moreover, this naming of one's forefathers was a kind of contest itself, and a warm up before the actual action of the fight. It was meant to intimidate. Then there is the Greek concept of Kleos, or fame, and the necessity to have one's name and deeds remembered as a kind of immortality itself. So each warrior was asserting his own individual greatness, and his right to be thought of as noble, which would be followed up with actions.

[Seasider]

@Mortalterror
Very interesting thoughts on the warm up before the fight. Put me in mind of Mohammed Ali before a fight...asserting his individual greatness, his right to be thought heroic with the promise of great deeds following great words. He probably got it straight from The Iliad:)

[JuniperWoolf]

The Gilgamesh epic is older; the oldest extant copy was written even before the siege of Troy.

But it wasn't...


...written in an alphabet.

They used picture signs, like hieroglyphics.

[PeterL]

But it wasn't...


Wasn't what? The Oldest extant copy of the Gilgamesh saga goes back to about 2200 BCE, and is was written in a cuniform alphabet, specifically Babylonian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

"2100 BCE
The oldest known copy of a Sumerian Gilgamesh poem dates from 2100."
http://www.learner.org/courses/worldlit/gilgamesh/explore/

[Rores28]

Thanks for all the replies... this thread has been very informative.

Special thanks to SLG and his/her ridiculously in depth reply. :)