How is the line drawn between Englishes?

[Mudkip]

English gets divided into Old English, Middle English, and our English, but can you really draw distinct lines between them? For instance, Alison (http://www.bartleby.com/101/2.html) was written in the 1300s and has a number of words that are purely German, while Caxton's translation of Le Morte Darthur (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=cme;idno=MaloryWks2) was published in the 1400s. The latter seems to me to only be distinguished from modern English by the lack of standardized spelling and some syntactical differences.

What makes them both Middle English?

[OrphanPip]

I think Morte D'Arthur is generally considered to be written in Early Modern English, like Shakespeare.

You can't really draw distinct lines between the groups, but you can look at something like Malory and Shakespeare and recognize that they are using English much closer to ours than Chaucer wrote in. Old English is more obviously cut off from French influences, which lets us draw a line easier. Of course, there's a subjective element to where you want to draw lines in what is a fluid evolution of the language.

[Mudkip]

I think Morte D'Arthur is generally considered to be written in Early Modern English, like Shakespeare.

Lol, serves me right for using wikipedia :p

[Modest Proposal]

Well, on another front, the United States and Britain are two countries separated by a common language.

Check out H.L. Mencken's 'The American Language' for an interesting view on the difference between even modern manifestations of anglophone literatures.

[Paulclem]

Well, on another front, the United States and Britain are two countries separated by a common language.

Check out H.L. Mencken's 'The American Language' for an interesting view on the difference between even modern manifestations of anglophone literatures.

I remember a friend of mine went to work at a summer camp. He told me later that he stood on a chair to give the instructions,

"Pick up all your rubbish and put it in the bin."

Of course they didn't understand him at all.

[Wilde woman]

I'm specializing in Middle English, so the differences are pretty distinct to me. In terms of dates, very generally, Old English is pre-Norman Conquest and Middle English is post-Norman Conquest up until late 1400s. So,

~400-1066: Old English
1066~1470s: Middle English
1470s-present: modern English


What makes them both Middle English?

Alison is Middle English; Malory is modern English.

You should NOT try to judge Middle from modern English by orthography. The spellings for a single word in different Middle English dialects varies pretty widely. This is because there were so many different groups speaking some form of English (influenced by French or German or Welsh or Irish, depending on where you lived) that before Caxton and the printing press arrived, there was no way to really standardize the language.

A really easy way to tell if something is middle vs. modern is to look at the past tense verbs. If you see a construction like "y-hent" (l. 9 from the Alison text you posted), it's Middle English. This doesn't apply to ALL ME verbs; some do end in -d or -ed like modern English, but you won't find the y- or i- prefix in modern English verbs. Also, look at the negative constructions. Modern English will only have one negative word ("for I wille not be longe behynde" - at the bottom of leaf 18 from the Malory your posted), whereas Middle English often has double negatives like "not never". (I'm not sure, but I think that construction may come from Old French.)

Obviously, if you don't recognize characters as modern English characters (thorns and yoghs, mostly, though some dialects retain eths and ashes), you're in Middle English.

As for Old English, you won't be able to understand ANY of it if you haven't had training, and OE stuff usually contains more of the "foreign" characters than ME.

[Ghuyuran]

Yes, the double-negative is certainly of French origin. They have a long history of using several negatives in a sentence until somewhat recently.

[Mudkip]

Yes, the double-negative is certainly of French origin. They have a long history of using several negatives in a sentence until somewhat recently.

They still do, actually! :)
Je NE sais PAS = I don't not know
Je N'aurais JAMAIS cru = I wouldn't have never believed

[kiki1982]

Yes, they still do.

'Je ne connais personne' is another one ;).

But, what Ghuyuran is maybe referring to is the fact that they tend to silence the 'ne' or leave it out altogether when they are speaking. So, the sentence then becomes, 'Je-n' sais pas'. The ''n' is barely audible, but is still there. A little bit the same concept as 'rhytm 'n blues' or 'rock 'n roll'.

In Middle Dutch that double negation was also there actually, and still in some dialects.

[baaaaadgoatjoke]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift

[prendrelemick]

While on the subject of changes in English, I heard dat de "th" sound is rapidly dying out. Zis is because it is not a common sound in the mut'er tongue of countries yat have English as a second language. So the vast majority of English speakers dont use it.

I can't decide if it matters or not.

[Emil Miller]

While on the subject of changes in English, I heard dat de "th" sound is rapidly dying out. Zis is because it is not a common sound in the mut'er tongue of countries yat have English as a second language. So the vast majority of English speakers dont use it.

I can't decide if it matters or not.

I can.

[OrphanPip]

I still have a bit of trouble with the /th/ at the end of words like with, width, and breath. I can usually manage it at the beginning of words. Sad, even if I've spoken French from a very young age, English is technically my mother tongue.

[Wilde woman]

While on the subject of changes in English, I heard dat de "th" sound is rapidly dying out. Zis is because it is not a common sound in the mut'er tongue of countries yat have English as a second language. So the vast majority of English speakers dont use it.

Where have you heard this?

You know, now that I think of it, none of the languages I've learned do feature the "th" sound much. But, in Old English, it was used so much that the Anglo-Saxons actually had two different characters representing it, the thorn and the eth. I wonder if the Celtic languages have it. Anyone know?

[Paulclem]

While on the subject of changes in English, I heard dat de "th" sound is rapidly dying out. Zis is because it is not a common sound in the mut'er tongue of countries yat have English as a second language. So the vast majority of English speakers dont use it.

I can't decide if it matters or not.

Articles are another. Some other languages don't have a, an and the such as Hindi and Urdu. The large numbers of Indian-English speakers - far more than the English English speakers - struggle to use them.

[kiki1982]

Including Russian.

About Celtic languages:

I thought Welsh and Gaelic had it, or at least similar sounds. Another management of the tongue, maybe, or little more open or closed. Maybe the Welsh 'll' is one. But possible Manton will be able to help out here. ;)

[B. Laumness]

They still do, actually! :)
Je NE sais PAS = I don't not know
Je N'aurais JAMAIS cru = I wouldn't have never believed

Actually this is not a double negative.

Je ne connais personne = I do not know anybody
Je n'aurais jamais cru = I would not have ever believed
Je n'ai aucun indice = I do not have any clue

And pas = step, so originally, in the Middle Ages, pas is used in such sentences: il n'avance pas = he does not walk, he does not make a step. Afterwards it was generalized as the usual negation.

In the spoken language, the ne is often omitted, but the well-educated persons prefer to pronounce it, and in the written language its omission is considered as an error.

[Wilde woman]

Maybe the Welsh 'll' is one.

Ah, yes. Thanks kiki for jogging my memory. I'm not sure about that particular cluster, but the "dd" cluster is the "th" fricative sound.

[kiki1982]

Actually this is not a double negative.

Je ne connais personne = I do not know anybody
Je n'aurais jamais cru = I would not have ever believed
Je n'ai aucun indice = I do not have any clue

And pas = step, so originally, in the Middle Ages, pas is used in such sentences: il n'avance pas = he does not walk, he does not make a step. Afterwards it was generalized as the usual negation.

In the spoken language, the ne is often omitted, but the well-educated persons prefer to pronounce it, and in the written language its omission is considered as an error.

I didn't know about 'pas' in French. Thanks for that. :)
In Dutch there also used to be, and there still is in dialects, a double negative. 'Hij en weet het niet'. Now it is 'Hij weet het niet'. I thought it went out of use quite late, as it is still found in dialects in the middle of the country. I think in the 17th century with the standardisation of the language.



Ah, yes. Thanks kiki for jogging my memory. I'm not sure about that particular cluster, but the "dd" cluster is the "th" fricative sound.

haha I don't know anything about Welsh apart from the 'll', so I didn't think about the 'dd', but I'll remember! :D

[Silas Thorne]

Scottish English I think has many double negative questions. Usually it seems you can't answer with a single 'yes' or 'no' alone, otherwise you'll confuse the person asking them. I think they are double negative anyway, though I cannae think for the life of me what they are... perhaps they are confusing tag questions.

[OrphanPip]

In the spoken language, the ne is often omitted, but the well-educated persons prefer to pronounce it, and in the written language its omission is considered as an error.

I rarely ever hear it spoken, but that could be a dialectical difference between Quebec and France.

[prendrelemick]

.....