Haiku - tradition or innovation?

[Paulclem]

The 5 7 5 syllable haiku is supposed to contain certain elements within it, such as a time reference, and be set in nature to expound a philosophical profundity.

This is not universally agreed though - see below.

http://raysweb.net/haiku/pages/haiku-definition.html

What form you think Haiku should take? Should we stick to the traditional Japanese version - which has a more complex syllable structure than our 5 7 5 version, and conforms to the subjects described above, or should we focus upon modern experience? Would an urban haiku be acceptable for example, or a haiku about your computer, or would this trivialise the form?

[Pryderi Agni]

First, poetry is not so sensitive that it can be trivialized by making poems out of everyday experience.

Secondly, haiku is not so rigid as you might think. Sure, the great masters--Basho, Issa, Buson--patterned their poems faithfully after the 'rules', but haiku as a genre itself has evolved quite beyond the limits set by poeticians of the 16th century. Any Google search will definitely turn up concrete examples of contemporary poetry that pushes the envelope of traditional haiku.

[Paulclem]

First, poetry is not so sensitive that it can be trivialized by making poems out of everyday experience.

Secondly, haiku is not so rigid as you might think. Sure, the great masters--Basho, Issa, Buson--patterned their poems faithfully after the 'rules', but haiku as a genre itself has evolved quite beyond the limits set by poeticians of the 16th century. Any Google search will definitely turn up concrete examples of contemporary poetry that pushes the envelope of traditional haiku.


First, poetry is not so sensitive that it can be trivialized by making poems out of everyday experience

Not sure what you mean by this. Can you clarify?

What do you think of the evolving of the form? I read some pretty tight descriptors for one Haiku society that set me wondering ages ago. 16th Japan was pretty rural and so that was theri everyday experience. It's not the same now in large cities. I think you can have transcendent thoughts in a city and use them in Haiku.

[JBI]

First, poetry is not so sensitive that it can be trivialized by making poems out of everyday experience

Not sure what you mean by this. Can you clarify?

What do you think of the evolving of the form? I read some pretty tight descriptors for one Haiku society that set me wondering ages ago. 16th Japan was pretty rural and so that was theri everyday experience. It's not the same now in large cities. I think you can have transcendent thoughts in a city and use them in Haiku.

The whole idea of Haiku has been misrepresented here. The nature of Japanese poetry is a continuous discussion, usually set out in early Chinese-modeled verses back in the Thousand Leaves imperial anthology that kicked off the tradition proper. The syllabic lines comes from that metre, as do the conceits, however, the Tanka, the central form, dominated and past down. In truth, Haiku emerged as a decadent, rather than conservative form of poetry.

That being said, these so called rules make more sense when you read what is the haiku, as befits tradition. The notion of thinking about all other Haiku and poems written about the idea or place you wish to mention in writing your Haiku is a good place to start - in truth, they are often littered with very complex schemes of allusions, as is much of Japanese poetry. But even so, the conceits themselves are understood in the background as creating a topical, or situational framework which is glossed at by oblique referencing throughout the poem.

That being said, the form has "evolved" if you will, simply because it probably was best absorbed by English school kids, thinking to take a short cut, and get out with 17 syllables as apposed to a long sonnet which takes some sort of effort, even if mediocre.

Has the form been adapted well in some circumstances though? I believe it was Robert Haydon who wrote a series of them, which were very powerful, if my memory serves, but for the most part, no. The simple reason is, when the tradition behind the poem is lost, the power of expression becomes too limited by the form. By breaking from the tradition, as the above posters seem to suggest, one is merely cheating themselves out of the poetic weight - one can move, but you leave behind what you try to distance yourself from. Of course, the trend of first-lining with allusion (as is the standard of Tanka) can be gotten away from, as the Haiku seemed to like to move from there as a tradition, but even that is losing something. Even so, perhaps that is why Issa and Busho and the others are still read, they somehow are connected to the poetic web, whereas these "great innovators" are more like mediocre kids thinking themselves smart by breaking a rule, and thereby, shooting themselves in the foot.

[Paulclem]

Haiku was established as a serious form by Basho. I have read that he derided poetic styles based on wit, and fostered the Haiku form to express transcendent moents encompassed in everyday observation.

I suppose the problem arises when you wish to adopt a form, but the audience does not understand the poetic references without priming themselves with study, which would defeat the object of Haiku. An example is the refrences to cherry blossom which is reference to love in Japan.

I think English versions of Haiku would then need to maintain impact, foster reflection etc by using estern cultual references. It then begs the question of whether the form is valid if we lose such an important heritage.

Whilst respecting the Haiku tradition, the subject, allusions etc have to move on. Retaining a traditional English interpretation of the form - namely the 5 7 5 structure, tis the innovation to its origins.

[Momotaro]

Poetry is art. There are some rules for syntax, but nobody can say what should or should not be discussed in a poem. I've seen haiku about nature, and I've also seen some like this:

Haikus are awesome,
but some of them don't make sense.
Refrigerator.I love poetry that makes me laugh!

[Paulclem]

Poetry is art. There are some rules for syntax, but nobody can say what should or should not be discussed in a poem. I've seen haiku about nature, and I've also seen some like this:
I love poetry that makes me laugh!

Have you seen the Zombie Haiku?

http://www.zombiehaiku.com/