Grammar in Writing a Novel

[miyako73]

I can understand conversational fragments but not senteces that are not grammatically correct. Do you think grammar lapses are okay in writing a novel as long as they make sense?

Example from a prize-winning novel, Illustrado:

"Her hair, dyed such a bad brown it was orange, was pulled severely into a bun on her head like a tangerine."

[hillwalker]

Where do you see the gramatical faults in this sentence?

It could be stretched for clarification :

"Her hair, which was dyed such a bad brown that it was orange, was pulled severely into a bun on her head so that it looked like a tangerine."

but often trimming back superfluous words improves the immediacy of an image.

H

[miyako73]

"dyed such a bad brown it was orange"

[dafydd manton]

Quite a good analogy. The grotty orange of an electric sun-tan. Neat.

[hillwalker]

Would 'dyed such a bad brown that it was orange' be more grammatically correct? not really beacuse the word 'that' is redundant here, it is not necessary, the reader should understand what is intended without it.
'That' is one of those words, along with 'really' that are often over-used by writers still developing their craft.

H

[miyako73]

so you mean this dependent clause is correct:

"performed such a boring dance it was booed"


I thought when "such", like "too," is used as a degree amplifier "that" should follow.


example:

such a boring show that it was finished early

too good to be true that I ignored his proposal

[hillwalker]

Formally perhaps yes, but in contemporary usage the word 'that' is unnecessary. It's a matter of style rather than grammar. Rules have their place, but if you are proficient enough in a language to know which ones can be broken then it is not generally seen as a fault.

H

[Sancho]

It's a matter of style rather than grammar. Rules have their place, but if you are proficient enough in a language to know which ones can be broken then it is not generally seen as a fault.

H

That idea was summed up nicely by Bill Walsh in one of his books - Lapsing Into a Comma - I think.

It went something like this:

Editor to Reporter: This is not a complete sentence.
Reporter to Editor: So what.

[MANICHAEAN]

If you are brought up in the East End of London & then become an avid fan of Gibbon with his soaring prose, then you will get confused with your grammer when writing. You get pulled both ways.

What gives you more pleasure; to be articulate in the usage of the language, or to slip into the patois & grammer of the person you are portraying? Lord Curzon was described sarcastically as "a very superior person" due partly to the exactness & effort put into that which he transcribed. With Hemingway as in "Fiesta" it is in large parts not so much grammer as downright conversational, with nothing in between to disturb the flow.

[LMK]

I recently read, The March, by E.L. Doctorow where no quotation marks were used during any spoken lines. I found it distracting and lazy, but I heard that there is a trend towards that. Comma usage and semi-colons are also being debated, it seems, just like we were taught to NEVER begin a sentence with the words 'And' or 'But' it has now become acceptable and I have found it occasionally useful.

I suppose it is something that if it causes a distraction to the reader then it is a problem, if not then I guess it is a style.

[dafydd manton]

I recently read, The March, by E.L. Doctorow where no quotation marks were used during any spoken lines. I found it distracting and lazy, but I heard that there is a trend towards that. Comma usage and semi-colons are also being debated, it seems, just like we were taught to NEVER begin a sentence with the words 'And' or 'But' it has now become acceptable and I have found it occasionally useful.

I suppose it is something that if it causes a distraction to the reader then it is a problem, if not then I guess it is a style.

The "and" and "but" thing was just one of those awful conventions that burst on the scene in the 50s, but many brilliant authors had done so in the past. I once made a list of the elite who had used conjuntions to start sentences, and there were dozens. Teachers in 1950 thought they were above the literati. Sadly they weren't. And aren't. (See what I did, there? Far more emphatic, though. As can clipped sentences be.)

[LMK]

The "and" and "but" thing was just one of those awful conventions that burst on the scene in the 50s, but many brilliant authors had done so in the past. I once made a list of the elite who had used conjuntions to start sentences, and there were dozens. Teachers in 1950 thought they were above the literati. Sadly they weren't. And aren't. (See what I did, there? Far more emphatic, though. As can clipped sentences be.)

Yes, like the harping on split infinitives (which cannot be done in the English language to my knowledge anyway) and ending sentences with a preposition. But sometimes I think that is a convention that can also, when needed, be called upon. (Too funny, this can be quite enjoyable.)

[dafydd manton]

Split infinitives! Madness. Up with this we will not put!

[LMK]

Split infinitives! Madness. Up with this we will not put!

I actually chuckled aloud at that one!

[Scheherazade]

I can understand conversational fragments but not senteces that are not grammatically correct. Do you think grammar lapses are okay in writing a novel as long as they make sense?

Example from a prize-winning novel, Illustrado:

"Her hair, dyed such a bad brown it was orange, was pulled severely into a bun on her head like a tangerine."I believe this is where editors come into play. It's their job to decide whether it is poor grammar or "unconventional use of language". The first, in my opinion as a reader, is not acceptable. I would not mind the latter if it was justified; for example, part of a character or emphasis etc.

I think the example given is poor grammar and would bother me a lot.

[LMK]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the issue of grammar, for me, does not extend to dialogue. Some characters speak grammatically incorrect sentences, incomplete sentences, etc. and the punctuation can be used to show how the sentence was spoken by the character. Not that anyone suggested it did, just wanted to add this opinion.

[xtianfriborg13]

I don't see any grammatical incorrectness in that sentence you gave.