Confederate Flag

[papayahed]

What does this flag symbolize to you?



http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Flags/rebel-flag.jpg

[grotto]

First reaction; A pickup truck, a case of Budweiser and rednecks heading to a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert.

Second reaction; the symbol of an old out lived ideology that some can’t let go of.

[JBI]

The flag flying just shows me some idiots are proud of being ignorant redneck bigots.

[JuniperWoolf]

First thought: inbreeding makes some scary people.

Second thought: except for Daisy Duke.

[dafydd manton]

I never realised that feelings ran so deep! That's almost scary.

[soundofmusic]

The confederates wanted the right to govern the 13 states in the way they saw fit. That did not just include the concept of whether to have paid labor, indentured servants or slaves; but also the right to free trade, where they laid the railway, etc. The union was unable to make it economically without those fruitful states; so it forced them to become part of the "United States"

[dafydd manton]

And presumably some people are still unhappy about this, all those years after the event?

[TheFifthElement]

The Dukes of Hazzard.

[BienvenuJDC]

The confederates wanted the right to govern the 13 states in the way they saw fit. That did not just include the concept of whether to have paid labor, indentured servants or slaves; but also the right to free trade, where they laid the railway, etc. The union was unable to make it economically without those fruitful states; so it forced them to become part of the "United States"

I like your comments here.

Although I may not share the same form of expression (nor would I fly the flag), but I think that many feel that it represents an anti-federalist ideology.

[soundofmusic]

I like your comments here.

Although I may not share the same form of expression (nor would I fly the flag), but I think that many feel that it represents an anti-federalist ideology.

Thank you, Bien. When I see the confederate flag; I wonder, what will people remember about the story of the twin towers or the battles that continue in the middle east, will the UK still have a monarchy, will there still be a pope in 150 years; and if not, what will people remember?
Will people remember the scandals of Prince Charles, or will they remember the night that the queen, staff, and people from the streets all came together to save things during the fire at Windsor Castle. Will they remember the embarrassing stories of the popes brother; or the profound effect John Paul II had on even non-Catholics.

What shapes our future is the perception we have of our history.

[billl]

Still, from a perspective of moral consideration, slavery was a terribly damning card to be holding in that hand of historic conflict. If the South could have only gotten THAT question right, it's purposes at that time might still deserve some respect.

[soundofmusic]

Still, from a perspective of moral consideration, slavery was a terribly damning card to be holding in that hand of historic conflict. If the South could have only gotten THAT question right, it's purposes at that time might still deserve some respect.

The civil war went on more than a year before the North and President Lincoln decided it was about slavery; in the beginning, he had no intention of stopping slavery in the south. We also might want to examine the treatment of European immigrants who came to the North at the same time there was slavery in the South. They were starving in the streets, beggared, doing extremely dangerous jobs for almost no money...how do you think the North won the war?

[billl]

I'm not surprised by any of that, but clearly, we are fortunate that it turned out the way it did. The South had a great many plantations with slaves, at that time. Actual slaves (not just people being taxed buy the Fedral gov't). They were not struggling "immigrants" either. They were property, etc., and I am not gonna waste too many keystrokes elucidating the differences.

[soundofmusic]

Elucidating....I like that word...yes, I will put that in my vocabulary for the 5 syllable words that I never get to use...because they even sound too pompis
for litnet...

On the other hand, I might begin using the work gov'ment; it's so now...so, down with the people...

Should we ever have another civil war, it may be useful; just in case we are judged by the amount of syllables we use...:crash:

[Jassy Melson]

First and foremost, it is a battle flag

[BienvenuJDC]

Still, from a perspective of moral consideration, slavery was a terribly damning card to be holding in that hand of historic conflict. If the South could have only gotten THAT question right, it's purposes at that time might still deserve some respect.

But didn't the North have it's own skeletons...and every other culture too?
There were some "slaves" living better lives in the South than the "free" factory workers in the North. The history books have been written by the Northern influence...how different would they be if they were written by a Southerner?

And I would venture that neither would be totally accurate.

[billl]

Still, from a perspective of moral consideration, slavery was a terribly damning card to be holding in that hand of historic conflict. If the South could have only gotten THAT question right, it's purposes at that time might still deserve some respect.

(re: skeletons, the progress of workers' rights, etc.)

[stlukesguild]

Let's set some facts straight. The issue of slavery was not something that came about after the war began. It was a heated and divisive issue in America for quite some time... at least as early as the 1700s. The South was fearful of losing control of the congress to Northern Anti-slave states and continued to push for the right to own slaves in the new territories and western states to offset an Abolitionist control. There was even an unsuccessful attempt to annex Cuba as a slave state. Pro-slavery supporters engaged in extreme examples of election fraud in Kansas and repeated violent actions. Abraham Lincoln ran on a policy of ending any expansion of slave states. The South was completely dependent upon slave labor and with the development of the "cotton gin" the amount of cotton that could be processed increased 50-fold making. "King Cotton" made Southern plantation owners incredibly wealthy... and greatly increased the demand for more slaves. Southern politicians made repeated warnings that no interference with the right to own slaves would be tolerated. When it was clear that Lincoln had won the election, seven southern states under Jefferson Davis declared their secession from the union prior to Lincoln's taking office on March 4, 1861. Both the outgoing administration of James Buchanan and Lincoln considered the secession illegal and declared it a rebellion.

One might do well to remember that after declaring a secession from the Union it was the Confederacy that instigated hostilities with the attack on the military base of Fort Sumter, in South Carolina. Lincoln called for a volunteer army to be raised to defend the Union and 4 more southern states joined the secession. The Southern leaders assumed a rapid victory. They assured the populace that the pride and honor of Southern gentlemen and superior military abilities would rapidly defeat the Northern forces who would not be willing to suffer losses for the black man. Unfortunately, while the South was quite wealthy as a result of cotton and tobacco trade (which amounted to 70% of the US trade at the time), most of the wealth was tied up in the hands of the few rich plantation owners: in land, cotton, tobacco, and slaves. The population of the North was more than double that of the South and more than 4 times as large when taking the slaves out of the picture. The North also produced more than 90% of the manufactured goods, and 95% of the weaponry. Against such odds the South had no way of succeeding in any prolonged war.

Undoubtedly, no side comes out smelling of roses in a war. There were certainly legitimate issues raised by the Confederacy with regard to the extent of Federal control and State's rights... but the reality is that each of these issues were raised solely as the result of the desire to maintain the right to own another human being. Considering the abhorrent and appalling treatment of many slaves... beginning with the slave trade in Africa and the horrific conditions of the journey across the Atlantic... one must consider the attempts to whitewash such by comparing it with the harsh working conditions in the Northern factories (conditions common throughout the industrial world) to as repugnant as attempting to dismiss the German responsibility for WWII and the Holocaust by noting that Roosevelt and Churchill were also anti-semitic.

Personally, I have mixed feelings with regard to the Confederate flag. I certainly feel that it should not be hung on any government or public property. At the same time... it is part of our history and should not be banned. Sweeping history and dangerous ideas under the rug strikes me as more dangerous than to engage in an open dialog. Still it is obvious that what this flag represents is something that remains fresh in the American memory (perhaps not unlike what the Swastika represents to Jews, Germans, and the participants of WWII). It is not so far removed as Napoleon or Cromwell where it no longer raises deep seated feelings.

[Leland Gaunt]

I see childish divisiveness, slavery, and historical revisionism.But, recently thanks to some of my friends, I discovered that to some people it represents rebellion. Not necessarily anything to do with the South, just rebellion in general. I deem this bull****. I cannot understand why they would want to change how people view the flag, or why they were so unoriginal as to be unable to create their own flag.

[Emil Miller]

But didn't the North have it's own skeletons...and every other culture too?
There were some "slaves" living better lives in the South than the "free" factory workers in the North. The history books have been written by the Northern influence...how different would they be if they were written by a Southerner?

And I would venture that neither would be totally accurate.

The victors 'ALWAYS' write the history; which is why we shouldn't trust history but decide for ourselves the whys and wherefores of what happened by taking human nature into account.

[Leland Gaunt]

The victors 'ALWAYS' write the history; which is why we shouldn't trust history but decide for ourselves the whys and wherefores of what happened by taking human nature into account.
The victor always teaches history. I think that the loser can and does write about it. And your take on human nature is subjective and can be just as biased as a history book.

[BienvenuJDC]

One who doesn't believe in the existence of revisionism is gullible enough to believe all that he reads.

[Leland Gaunt]

One who doesn't believe in the existence of revisionism is gullible enough to believe all that he reads
I do so hope that you are not referring to me.

[Emil Miller]

The victor always teaches history. I think that the loser can and does write about it. And your take on human nature is subjective and can be just as biased as a history book.


I think that your statement should read "The victor always teaches his story." In judging human nature, it is better to use one's own experience
rather than someone else's.

[Leland Gaunt]

I think that your statement should read "The victor always teaches his story." In judging human nature, it is better to use one's own experience
rather than someone else's.
Well, that's just it isn't it. A good history book shouldn't really be making any judgements on human nature.If it delves into motives then it should simply state empirical evidence on motives. Now I do understand what you are saying, and even agree with you, it's just I don't think that history books are all horribly biased. With this issue history is fairly clear and certain. The South seceded because they thought that Lincoln would make abolish slavery. Even though Lincoln had only ever suggested that slavery should not expand beyond the states it already existed in. You can call it state's rights, but states right to do what? Own slaves. The war was about slavery.

[El Viejo]

stlukesguild makes the most sense so far.

To me the Confederate flag symbolizes white power, whether in the form of a mint julep-sipping 'gentleman' or a hooded klansman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5joRRYNypKM

[qimissung]

To me it represents something rather dark and fearful in the hearts of man, something that they should have put away from themselves or allowed to die a long time ago. To continue to hold it up as something to believe in is a tribute only to the mostnegative attributes mankind is capable of.

[Virgil]

What does this flag symbolize to you?


To me nothing. I'm from New York City. To the many southerners i know, it's a symbol of cultural identity. They are not projecting white superiority. Post the civil war the south experienced the harshest poverty of any region in the country for a century, and they bonded together given the polarization of the civil war, the polarization of rural versus industrial sub cultures, the polarization of an impoverished south, and a rebllion against a rather snobby intellectual elitism from the north that looks down at them.

[JuniperWoolf]

stlukesguild makes the most sense so far.


Yeah, SLG really cinched this thread. Anyone who argues that the confederate flag isn't a symbol of white supremacy should really read it.

[Sancho]

There’s an old cemetery near my house where several confederate soldiers are buried. Of the twenty or so grave stones of soldiers, there are only three last names and several of my neighbors have the same last name. Somebody goes out there and puts little confederate battle flags on their graves from time to time. And that is about the only place I don’t mind seeing that flag anymore - or maybe in a museum.

So I think Virgil is right, “to many [white] southerners it is a symbol of cultural identity,” but I’m afraid to most black southerners it’s a symbol of hate. And when they see it, they’re likely to remember the black man who was dragged to his death by a pickup truck in Jasper, Texas not that long ago; and on the bumper of that truck was a confederate-flag bumper-sticker.

It means different things to different people and its meaning has certainly changed over time.

[Emil Miller]

I have often, and I mean often, thought about what the USA would have become if the South had won the civil war. One thing's for sure, Europe would be a lot different today. I'm going to be wise and leave it right there.

[dafydd manton]

Brian - love the eagle!

[Virgil]

So I think Virgil is right, “to many [white] southerners it is a symbol of cultural identity,” but I’m afraid to most black southerners it’s a symbol of hate. And when they see it, they’re likely to remember the black man who was dragged to his death by a pickup truck in Jasper, Texas not that long ago; and on the bumper of that truck was a confederate-flag bumper-sticker.


Thanks. I suspect the others here have never met and mixed with southerners. Half the people in this discussion aren't even Americans and the others are northerners. But you are right. The flag represents something very specific to African Americans and I respect that too. It would be best if southerners did move off the battle flag as a cultural symbol, but when you are a ridiculed minority, it's hard to give in, just as many African Americans find it impossible to get rid of their negative cultural icons, i.e. gangster rap for instance.

[papayahed]

Thanks. I suspect the others here have never met and mixed with southerners. Half the people in this discussion aren't even Americans and the others are northerners.

That's exactly why I asked the question here. I was curious to hear the opinion of the confederate flag from people with no connection or investment.

[Paulclem]

The strongest association I have is with the American civil war and the slavery question, though I realise that the war was much more complex than this. I also have an impression of southern manners and politeness and a heroic lost cause.

These impressions are through film and documentaries.

[Sancho]

Ah yes, it’s a charged issue around here.


Half the people in this discussion aren't even Americans and the others are northerners.

Here’s a weird one: I saw a statue of Abraham Lincoln in Manchester, England. It had been erected by the working people of Manchester just after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. I was standing there, looking at it – a little tight on British bitter – thinking, Hey that guy looks just like Honest Abe. So I read the plaque, and sure enough. Anyway, a local guy was walking by so I grabbed him and said, “Do you know who this is?” He looked at the statue and said, “You know mate, I have no idea who that is.”

I guess that doesn’t really have anything to do with the Stars and Bars (sorry Papaya), but it’s almost obliquely related.

[billl]

Thanks. I suspect the others here have never met and mixed with southerners. Half the people in this discussion aren't even Americans and the others are northerners. But you are right. The flag represents something very specific to African Americans and I respect that too. It would be best if southerners did move off the battle flag as a cultural symbol, but when you are a ridiculed minority, it's hard to give in, just as many African Americans find it impossible to get rid of their negative cultural icons, i.e. gangster rap for instance.

I posted earlier in the thread, so I want to mention that I live in South Texas now, and grew up with both Southerners and Northerners (two of my earliest childhood 'best' friends had the flag in their rooms or on patches). I have traveled a lot, and have worked with many Southerners. Where I currently work, the flag is often seen on cars and even on clothing (I can't remember if any of my co-workers have worn it or not. NASCAR and Harley-Davidson are more common symbols in South Texas, and I see a lot of t-shirts and tattoos--but the Confederate Flag pops up enough on shirts and cars and caps to not necessarily stick in memory). Anyhow, I wouldn't call myself a Southerner, but I'm not a Northerner, either.

The flag isn't a big deal to me in most contexts, but in the case of an 'international' online forum, for example, I felt it was worth mentioning what I posted earlier.

[BienvenuJDC]

Thanks. I suspect the others here have never met and mixed with southerners. Half the people in this discussion aren't even Americans and the others are northerners. But you are right. The flag represents something very specific to African Americans and I respect that too. It would be best if southerners did move off the battle flag as a cultural symbol, but when you are a ridiculed minority, it's hard to give in, just as many African Americans find it impossible to get rid of their negative cultural icons, i.e. gangster rap for instance.

I was thinking just that earlier today. It seems that there are so many people around the world who like to make judgments about Americans and the culture, but they don't have any real connection or understanding. I grew up in the North, but I have lived in the South also. I have some first hand perspectives of the attitudes between Northern and Southern Americans. I believe it is irresponsible to establish opinions based on stereotypes and ignorance.

[Virgil]

Thanks Sancho, Billl, and Bien.

Sancho, I would never have guessed a statue of Lincoln in England. Now if it had been George Washington, that would have really been something. :D

[papayahed]

I guess that doesn’t really have anything to do with the Stars and Bars (sorry Papaya), but it’s almost obliquely related.

You know I always like your stories.


I was thinking just that earlier today. It seems that there are so many people around the world who like to make judgments about Americans and the culture, but they don't have any real connection or understanding. I grew up in the North, but I have lived in the South also. I have some first hand perspectives of the attitudes between Northern and Southern Americans. I believe it is irresponsible to establish opinions based on stereotypes and ignorance.

How much understanding does one need to form an opinion?

[BienvenuJDC]

How much understanding does one need to form an opinion?

Depends whether one wants an informed opinion or not.

[Nietzsche]

It's an old battle flag for a confederacy that shouldn't have been that people here in the south like to fly for "southern pride", which, incidentally, often entails racist views. I can't help but to metaphorically roll my eyes when I see rednecks riding around with it. There's a small Church right near where I live, and once, while out for a walk, a beaten down red truck with rednecks sitting in the back waving that flag around pulled into it while a service was letting out and started harassing the people coming out. It wasn't a pretty sight, I was worried violence would break out, but they pulled off.

Regardless, as a means to show cultural pride, if one wishes to show South Carolinian pride, they could fly the state flag. It's pointless to use that unless you intend to convey a racist message. Even if it doesn't mean that to you, it's what the majority think, and a symbol's meaning is defined by the majority. It's akin to wearing a swastika as a symbol of peace, when most people now in Western culture perceive it as a symbol of hate.

[Paulclem]

Ah yes, it’s a charged issue around here.



Here’s a weird one: I saw a statue of Abraham Lincoln in Manchester, England. It had been erected by the working people of Manchester just after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. I was standing there, looking at it – a little tight on British bitter – thinking, Hey that guy looks just like Honest Abe. So I read the plaque, and sure enough. Anyway, a local guy was walking by so I grabbed him and said, “Do you know who this is?” He looked at the statue and said, “You know mate, I have no idea who that is.”

I guess that doesn’t really have anything to do with the Stars and Bars (sorry Papaya), but it’s almost obliquely related.

I sometimes work at President Kennedy school here in Coventry UK. I think it was built after his assassination.

[Emil Miller]

Brian - love the eagle!

Thanks Daffyd, it was either that or a picture of Napoleon III. It's the flag of the former Kingdom of Brandenburg-Prussia.

[OrphanPip]

I sometimes work at President Kennedy school here in Coventry UK. I think it was built after his assassination.

Haha, we have a President Kennedy street in Montreal, also named after his assassination.

[Jassy Melson]

Speaking as a southerner I can tell you that the Confederate flag represents to me the War of Northern Aggression, and a certain cultural identity. The Confederate flag does not represent to me slavery, racism, or the Ku Klux Klan. I understand that some people when they see the Confederate flag can only see racism or slavery. But that's not the flag represents to me, a southerner.

[dafydd manton]

Thanks Daffyd, it was either that or a picture of Napoleon III. It's the flag of the former Kingdom of Brandenburg-Prussia.

Oh, I recognised it well enough - I lived I Berlin for 6 years!
Happy memories!

[Sancho]

You know I always like your stories.

Well then, Katy bar the door. I don’t need much encouragement.

Five or ten years ago, the South Carolina legislature finally pulled down the confederate flag from their Statehouse. Predictably, everybody got all riled up.

Right across the Congaree River from there, not far from where a battery of General Sherman’s artillery had bombarded the aforementioned statehouse, sits Maurice’s Piggie Park. Maurice has had his barbeque restaurant there since WWII, and has been flying the confederate flag on his building for as long as anybody can remember. He serves southern-style, mustard-based barbeque pork that is so ____ (well, I don’t want to start a BBQ war here. You can go to the Piggie Park and decide for yourself.)

Anyway, the day the confederate flag came down from the dome of South Carolina’s Capitol Building, Maurice put up what must’ve been a couple of hundred battle flags on his restaurant and around on his property. Things got so testy that the Kroger Supermarket chain had to pull the bottled version of Maurice’s Barbeque Sauce from their shelves. But there was still consumer demand for mustard-based barbeque sauce, and seeing the empty spot on the Kroger’s shelves, Maurice’s less-controversial brother moved in. Those two have been feuding for years.

There was a good article in the Sunday NY Times Magazine about it. They had a picture of Maurice in Manhattan, wearing a Stetson and a mustard-colored three-piece suit. He was in NYC trying to sell his barbeque sauce.

I’m tellin’ ya, the flag and barbeque are both charged issues around here.

[papayahed]

I’m tellin’ ya, the flag and barbeque are both charged issues around here.

Yeah, I can see how ya'll would be a little sensitive about your bbq since it doesn't hold a candle to Kansas City style.

[dafydd manton]

You barbecue flags?

[papayahed]

You barbecue flags?

Only during liberal protests.



hahaha, We replaced our flag at work and I asked the maintenance supervisor what he was going to do with the old one and asked if I could take it. He was about to give it to me when I mentioned I needed it for a protest march that weekend. The supervisor ended up giving it to a boy scout troop to burn. I say what's the difference? It ended up the same.

[Sancho]

Yeah, I can see how ya'll would be a little sensitive about your bbq since it doesn't hold a candle to Kansas City style.

Hunh. Oh yeah, they got barbeque in Kansas City too. Go figure.

[Shalot]

Well then, Katy bar the door. I don’t need much encouragement.

Five or ten years ago, the South Carolina legislature finally pulled down the confederate flag from their Statehouse. Predictably, everybody got all riled up.

Right across the Congaree River from there, not far from where a battery of General Sherman’s artillery had bombarded the aforementioned statehouse, sits Maurice’s Piggie Park. Maurice has had his barbeque restaurant there since WWII, and has been flying the confederate flag on his building for as long as anybody can remember. He serves southern-style, mustard-based barbeque pork that is so ____ (well, I don’t want to start a BBQ war here. You can go to the Piggie Park and decide for yourself.)

Anyway, the day the confederate flag came down from the dome of South Carolina’s Capitol Building, Maurice put up what must’ve been a couple of hundred battle flags on his restaurant and around on his property. Things got so testy that the Kroger Supermarket chain had to pull the bottled version of Maurice’s Barbeque Sauce from their shelves. But there was still consumer demand for mustard-based barbeque sauce, and seeing the empty spot on the Kroger’s shelves, Maurice’s less-controversial brother moved in. Those two have been feuding for years.

There was a good article in the Sunday NY Times Magazine about it. They had a picture of Maurice in Manhattan, wearing a Stetson and a mustard-colored three-piece suit. He was in NYC trying to sell his barbeque sauce.

I’m tellin’ ya, the flag and barbeque are both charged issues around here.

I was visiting South Carolina in July and I went to the original Maurices. I had never been there before but my dad insisted we go. The BBQ sauce is mustard based...very strange in my opinion, but I did like the brunswick stew. That meal took me back...my great great aunt was born and raised in South Carolina and she had that South Carolinian accent that I love (but when she'd had too much gin you couldn't understand a word she said).

When you walk into Maurice's, there are books for sale right next to the bottles of their signature mustard based BBQ sauce. "The Dark Side of Liberalism" was one of the titles I noticed. Obama Nation may have been another. You can buy a confederate flag bumper sticker too.

I wanted to know why my Dad wanted to eat there. My Dad's side of the family has been in the South since before the Civil War, but I never saw any Confederate Flag waving and it's my understanding that my great great great grandfather rode with Sherman (of course that could be bull**** knowing my family but that's the tale - if I found out that my ancestors stayed out of the war entirely and just hid in the mountains making moonshine, I wouldn't be surprised either). I still couldn't imagine why we were going in there to have some BBQ, especially since my Dad has always been a campaigning Democrat and I didn't think it was too great to be spending money in an establishment like that. But then I noticed that there was diversity among the patrons that day so I didn't feel like such a white supremacist redneck eating my weird mustard based BBQ under the Stars and Bars flag on the wall. I guess we all just wanted to eat some BBQ and traditional food.

When I look at the Confederate Flag, I get mixed feelings. I associate the confederate flag with extreme fundamentalism, racism and far right politics, which are all repugnant to me. Also, some of the people who wear their rebel flag shirts around here are just really disgusting and I don't want to have anything in common with those types of folks at all. At other times, I see the Confederate flag as the flag that everyone should be ashamed to fly and I just can't hate Maurice for having the balls to keep his tacked up all this time even though everyone knows you're not supposed to fly it.

[Sancho]

I just can't hate Maurice for having the balls to keep his tacked up all this time even though everyone knows you're not supposed to fly it.

Yep, Maurice is an original. Wearing that Stetson hat and mustard-colored suit, he looked like Colonel Sanders’ evil twin. I grew up in Columbia and my dad would drag us over to the Piggie Park every so often, and as you noted, there’s always a diverse crowd in there. So, barbeque isn’t political. I’ve got a CD by Marcia Ball called, Peace, Love and BBQ. Marcia is a (mostly) blues musician out of Austin. She’s from Orange, Texas, which makes her about half Louisianan and half Texan. She and Maurice probably wouldn’t find much common ground politically, but I know they both enjoy barbeque. Oh yes, and for me personally, I’ll take Texas barbeque any day over Southern barbeque.



Sancho, I would never have guessed a statue of Lincoln in England. Now if it had been George Washington, that would have really been something.

Correct-a-mundo, that’d be strange. But then, the British had their own George during that war. I’ll tell you, I can understand the sympathy of the working people of Manchester towards the emancipation of American slaves. The working conditions, though very different, were brutal in the factories of Manchester and on the plantations of the Americas, making the sentiment not such an abstract concept.



...but when you are a ridiculed minority, it's hard to give in, just as many African Americans find it impossible to get rid of their negative cultural icons, i.e. gangster rap for instance.

Agreed, but humor me while I really stray off topic and run the risk of going cross-ways with the serious cat. Since I’m such an argumentative cuss, I’m going to try to defend the seemingly indefensible. I’ll start with one of those indefensible absolutes: Kids are always going to sing about the things that are important to them, and their parents (and the previous generation) will always hate it. My generation wrote songs about Vietnam and drugs. I have a vivid memory of my dad hurling my turntable across the room while I was trying to listen to Peace Frog by the Doors. I said, “Dad? Are you having a conniption?” Turned out, that was the wrong thing to say.

Anyway, based on the treatment of black inner-city youths by the cops, I’d be surprised if they didn’t sing about cop killing. I don’t think most white people are capable of seeing the police through the lens of a black kid from East L.A. or the south side of Chicago, or the Bronx, (I’d also say south of Ponce in Atlanta except that most cops there are black guys.) Cornel West once cleared this up for me quite succinctly. He said, and this is a paraphrase: if a white kid finds himself in trouble and then sees a cop, his situation just got a lot better; whereas if a black kid finds himself in trouble and then sees a cop, his situation just got exponentially worse. The other thing that cleared up this paradigm shift for me was Latin American cops. I spend a fair amount of time in Central and South America with my job. The cops down there can be your best buddy or your worst enemy, depending on who’s paying them. I had an “Ah-hah” moment in Sao Paulo once.

[Basil]

Also, some of the people who wear their rebel flag shirts around here are just really disgusting and I don't want to have anything in common with those types of folks at all.

One time, a friend and I passed a guy wearing a shirt emblazoned with the Confederate flag and the words THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN. My friend, who grew up in Connecticut, was silent for a moment then remarked, "You know, up north we don't wear shirts that say 'We kicked your butts once, and we can do it again!'"

[papayahed]

One time, a friend and I passed a guy wearing a shirt emblazoned with the Confederate flag and the words THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN. My friend, who grew up in Connecticut, was silent for a moment then remarked, "You know, up north we don't wear shirts that say 'We kicked your butts once, and we can do it again!'"

HaHa, just this morning a friend of mine told me he's going to start refering to the south as "the occupied territory".:out:

[dafydd manton]

The Untied States?

[papayahed]

The Untied States?

The southern US states. It kinda goes along with the old joke: What's the difference between a Yankee and a Damn Yankee? A Yankee is a Northerner a Damn Yankee is a Northerner that came down and stayed.

[dafydd manton]

Oh dear. To us (and don't shoot the messenger) all Americans are Yanks!

[stlukesguild]

Speaking as a southerner I can tell you that the Confederate flag represents to me the War of Northern Aggression, and a certain cultural identity. The Confederate flag does not represent to me slavery, racism, or the Ku Klux Klan. I understand that some people when they see the Confederate flag can only see racism or slavery. But that's not the flag represents to me, a southerner.

What do you think it represents to the black population of the United States? What do you think it represents to the black southerners? I was born and raised in the north... albeit my family would have been living in Germany and Austria at the time of the civil war. There are symbols and achievements that I value from my German heritage... but I'm surely not going to go about flying the Swastika. Indeed... how is flying the Confederate battle flag different from wearing the KKK robes and burning crosses or flying the Swastika?

[papayahed]

Oh dear. To us (and don't shoot the messenger) all Americans are Yanks!


We know.

[Sancho]

...all Americans are Yanks!

Don’t get me riled! Or I’ll secede from the web-site - so help me Jefferson Davis I will!

[Sorry, serious cat.]

[EJMathews]

The Confederate Flag, to me, makes me think of Southern States, not hatred or bigotry, simply the southern states, conservative, home style, sweet tea, fried chicken and light biscuits, grits (with butter), slow talk, slow walk, taking time with life, sitting on the porch swing, chatting over the fence, walking to school, dusty roads, tall old oak trees, flower dresses and lovely hats, heat, whiskey and more heat.

[dafydd manton]

The Confederate Flag, to me, makes me think of Southern States, not hatred or bigotry, simply the southern states, conservative, home style, sweet tea, fried chicken and light biscuits, grits (with butter), slow talk, slow walk, taking time with life, sitting on the porch swing, chatting over the fence, walking to school, dusty roads, tall old oak trees, flower dresses and lovely hats, heat, whiskey and more heat.

Now THAT is an image I can live with, rather than all the politicking and bickering. :thumbsup:

[Emil Miller]

Now THAT is an image I can live with, rather than all the politicking and bickering. :thumbsup:

So can I but stand by for some more politicking and bickering.

[prendrelemick]

As with most of the English (male), the flag reminds us of Daisey Duke's legs in the opening credits of the Dukes of Hazard.

However, being English we know little of the history between the North and South. I strongly suspect that the victor wrote the official book on the subject. Lincoln is now venerated inspite of his making war on the southern states that had legally seceded. It was about power. Does any one really believe he did it to free the slaves?

So, when a people's story is not heard- when your version of events carries no weight, symbols become important, they are unsupressable and vague, they can mean what ever you want them to. I see the flag used in the South in the same way the memory of Lincoln is used in the north. Its a powerful symbol of an Ideal or dream that probably never was.

Also I must add we English love a valiant loser chasing a lost cause.

[Emil Miller]

I strongly suspect that the victor wrote the official book on the subject.

This is true of every war, but what has always puzzled me is why the masses automatically accept it. Given the deviousness of human nature and the self-interest involved in siding with the victor, surely it is better for independent-minded people to be sceptical of the received information.

[papayahed]

This is true of every war, but what has always puzzled me is why the masses automatically accept it. Given the deviousness of human nature and the self-interest involved in siding with the victor, surely it is better for independent-minded people to be sceptical of the received information.

If it was just a flag used only in the war that would be one story however, at some point along the way many hate groups have adopted the flag. In my mind the confedrate flag has become less about the civil war and more about those hate groups. There are too many news stories, pictures, and even personal experiences that depict hate groups carrying/discussing the flag that I can never think of the flag as anything else but a symbol of racism.

It's like the rainbow. At some point the rainbow, and more pointedly the rainbow flag, became a symbol for gays/lesbians. There's nothing wrong with that, my point is that meanings change whether we like them to or not.

[dafydd manton]

Can I just stick with the image of Daisy Duke's legs, in those shorts.....getting out of the car.......!!

[prendrelemick]

If it was just a flag used only in the war that would be one story however, at some point along the way many hate groups have adopted the flag. In my mind the confedrate flag has become less about the civil war and more about those hate groups. There are too many news stories, pictures, and even personal experiences that depict hate groups carrying/discussing the flag that I can never think of the flag as anything else but a symbol of racism.

It's like the rainbow. At some point the rainbow, and more pointedly the rainbow flag, became a symbol for gays/lesbians. There's nothing wrong with that, my point is that meanings change whether we like them to or not.

Sorry serious cat, a little off subject.

The Union Jack was also hijacked by hate groups in this country. (Although it is now being reclaimed by the mainstream) Their sucess in doing so was in no small part due to British minority groups denouncing it as a symbol of racism. Thats how they saw it. This was the National flag - their flag - we are talking about, a symbol to bring us together not divide us. People became ashamed to display it because of its associations and for fear of causing offence. A crazy situation I think

[soundofmusic]

What do you think it represents to the black population of the United States? What do you think it represents to the black southerners? I was born and raised in the north... albeit my family would have been living in Germany and Austria at the time of the civil war. There are symbols and achievements that I value from my German heritage... but I'm surely not going to go about flying the Swastika. Indeed... how is flying the Confederate battle flag different from wearing the KKK robes and burning crosses or flying the Swastika?

I don't think the Confederate flag represents racism and slavery any more than OJ Simpson represents domestic violence apart from a great football career, or Michael Jackson pedophilia apart from a great musical career.
Our history is what it is; people are comfortable with keeping up the tower of London or Auschuwitz when they are also examples of great human suffering, but they are also examples of how far we have come and that we have learned from our mistakes.

[EJMathews]

Sorry serious cat, a little off subject.

The Union Jack was also hijacked by hate groups in this country. (Although it is now being reclaimed by the mainstream) Their sucess in doing so was in no small part due to British minority groups denouncing it as a symbol of racism. Thats how they saw it. This was the National flag - their flag - we are talking about, a symbol to bring us together not divide us. People became ashamed to display it because of its associations and for fear of causing offence. A crazy situation I think

As was the swastika!

[soundofmusic]

The Confederate Flag, to me, makes me think of Southern States, not hatred or bigotry, simply the southern states, conservative, home style, sweet tea, fried chicken and light biscuits, grits (with butter), slow talk, slow walk, taking time with life, sitting on the porch swing, chatting over the fence, walking to school, dusty roads, tall old oak trees, flower dresses and lovely hats, heat, whiskey and more heat.

Now you're a man who knows the South...3 meats on the same table, vegetables swimming in fatback, crisp bacon at 5am, rocking on the porch and waving at neighbors driving by on the one main road...


Now THAT is an image I can live with, rather than all the politicking and bickering. :thumbsup:

Here, Here, dafydd my friend:thumbsup:

[Sancho]

As with most of the English (male), the flag reminds us of Daisey Duke's legs in the opening credits of the Dukes of Hazard.

However, being English we know little of the history between the North and South. I strongly suspect that the victor wrote the official book on the subject. Lincoln is now venerated inspite of his making war on the southern states that had legally seceded. It was about power. Does any one really believe he did it to free the slaves?

So, when a people's story is not heard- when your version of events carries no weight, symbols become important, they are unsupressable and vague, they can mean what ever you want them to. I see the flag used in the South in the same way the memory of Lincoln is used in the north. Its a powerful symbol of an Ideal or dream that probably never was.

Also I must add we English love a valiant loser chasing a lost cause.

Now that’s what I call serendipity - posting a message about the victors writing the history books and in it mentioning lost causes. There was a large body of historical literature that came out of the South after the war some of which came to be known as the theory of the lost cause. The theory essentially argued the South couldn’t have won a war against the more populous and industrialized North. Further, as a way of saving southern honor, it theorized that southern soldiers fought harder than northern soldiers, and Confederate Generals out-generaled Union Generals. The Lost Cause Theory shamelessly romanticized the Old South. Jubal Early, a Confederate Lt. General, wrote a bucket-full of historical articles in this vein and Edward Pollard wrote book in the late 1800s cleverly titled The Lost Cause. These theories (or myths) persist.

I think the indignation of being on the losing side and the pervasive feeling that the South fought better, keeps that Rebel Flag flying over many trailer-homes on this side of the Mason-Dixon line today.

By the way, it has been estimated that the average Confederate soldier weighed 145 lbs while the average Union soldier came in at a portly 150 lbs. Two more myth busters while I’m at it: the actor who played Bo Duke was from New York, and the actress who played Daisy Duke got plump.

[El Viejo]

By the way, it has been estimated that the average Confederate soldier weighed 145 lbs while the average Union soldier came in at a portly 150 lbs.


Tangent time--unless the average Union soldier was also a foot shorter than the average Confederate soldier, that extra five pounds would hardly make him portly.

[dafydd manton]

Catherine Bach - aka Daisy Dook. Just Googled her (what an awful phrase) - hardly my idea of plump, and certainly still a bit of a looker. Just not from the South, is all! And frankly, so what!!! Those shorts!!

[El Viejo]

I don't think the Confederate flag represents racism and slavery...

Our history is what it is; people are comfortable with keeping up the tower of London or Auschuwitz when they are also examples of great human suffering, but they are also examples of how far we have come and that we have learned from our mistakes.

For most the Tower of London is a tourist attraction, one of the things to see when visiting. It isn't generally recognized as a monument to how far we've come etc., except maybe to those who've taken the tour.

Auschwitz on the other hand, whether one's been there or not, is universally recognized as a monument to those who were killed by the Nazis. But it's less a monument to how far we've come than it is to how far we can descend.

The Confederate flag evokes many things, but most consistently it reminds us of how we can choose to be immobile and implacable, and be proud of it.

Ask the average guy flying a Confederate flag on his bumper or belly or ballcap what Auschwitz means to him and he'll probably tell you it was a good start.

[Sancho]

Tangent time--unless the average Union soldier was also a foot shorter than the average Confederate soldier, that extra five pounds would hardly make him portly.

I know. Both sides were skinny and malnourished. I was using the adjective for comic effect.

[El Viejo]

I know. Both sides were skinny and malnourished. I was using the adjective for comic effect.

Got it. And it is comic. Too serious today, I guess.

[Sancho]

No problema mi amigo viejo. Soy viejo tambien.


Catherine Bach - aka Daisy Dook. Just Googled her (what an awful phrase) - hardly my idea of plump, and certainly still a bit of a looker. Just not from the South, is all! And frankly, so what!!! Those shorts!!

Hey man, I dig big girls too.

[BienvenuJDC]

The Confederate flag evokes many things, but most consistently it reminds us of how we can choose to be immobile and implacable, and be proud of it.

Ask the average guy flying a Confederate flag on his bumper or belly or ballcap what Auschwitz means to him and he'll probably tell you it was a good start.

That's an interesting stereotype. It is probably as accurate as most of the other stereotypes too. I mean there may be some application to a portion of the Rebel flag bearers, but do you think that it really applies to most or all of those who displays a bumper sticker or T-shirt with the Confederate flag? To many it's just a representation of Southern heritage. How would I be viewed if I tried to apply all cultural stereotypes to the majority in their cultures? (.....I bet I would be called a bigoted and close minded individual..... at best)

[papayahed]

No problema mi amigo viejo. Soy viejo tambien.

Me too, sometimes.



Hey man, I dig big girls too.


How you doin'?:ihih:

[Sancho]

How you doin'?:ihih:

Woo-hoo! Now you’re talkin’. Sell my clothes, I’m going to heaven.

[Sorry again, Serious Cat. I can feel your look. Stop looking at me.]

[soundofmusic]

How you doin'?:ihih:

Why do the sexy superwomen always get the men:bawling:

[soundofmusic]

For most the Tower of London is a tourist attraction, one of the things to see when visiting. It isn't generally recognized as a monument to how far we've come etc., except maybe to those who've taken the tour.

Auschwitz on the other hand, whether one's been there or not, is universally recognized as a monument to those who were killed by the Nazis. But it's less a monument to how far we've come than it is to how far we can descend.

The Confederate flag evokes many things, but most consistently it reminds us of how we can choose to be immobile and implacable, and be proud of it.

Ask the average guy flying a Confederate flag on his bumper or belly or ballcap what Auschwitz means to him and he'll probably tell you it was a good start.


Are we, who are recognizing the historical significance of the confederate flag, somehow giving the idea that we are rednecks with a confederate flag glued to the back of our pickup truck and spend sunday nights dragging african americans to their death after drinking with them all day...

I don't own a confederate flag, I probably would not have owned slaves even when it was a part of the southern way of life because I believe it immoral...

However, I doubt that if Josef Jakobs family still lives today; they think of the Tower of London, the place where their family member was shot 8 times while he sat in a chair in 1941, as a mere tourist attraction.

I doubt that the patient I had 20 years ago, who was a part of the twin experiments, would think of Aushwitz as a memorial...

The tower of Londons torture chamber and the death camps are not memorials; they are an example of mankinds fascination for the morbid and macabre.

[papayahed]

Are we, who are recognizing the historical significance of the confederate flag, somehow giving the idea that we are rednecks with a confederate flag glued to the back of our pickup truck and spend sunday nights dragging african americans to their death after drinking with them all day...

Yes. The truth is that hate groups actively use and display the Confederate flag, they are loud and they grab media attention. A lot of people may not be familiar with all the intricacies of the civil war but it's very easy to pick up the paper or watch the news and see the KKK marching with a Confederate flag.

[Scheherazade]

I don't think the Confederate flag represents racism and slavery any more than OJ Simpson represents domestic violence I had no idea who OJ was until his murder trial... And even after that, I recall him as "oh, that footballer who got away with murder, right?"
Our history is what it is; people are comfortable with keeping up the tower of London or Auschuwitz when they are also examples of great human suffering, but they are also examples of how far we have come and that we have learned from our mistakes.Auschwitz might be open but how well would it go down if you wore a shirt with a svastika on it?

No one here is suggesting that the US history books should be re-written leaving out the South and the part it played; however, I sure do hope that South has more to be proud of than a flag that has been used by extremist groups and becoming synonymous with racism.

(Like the barbecues Sancho mentioned earlier! :D)
That's an interesting stereotype. It is probably as accurate as most of the other stereotypes too. I mean there may be some application to a portion of the Rebel flag bearers, but do you think that it really applies to most or all of those who displays a bumper sticker or T-shirt with the Confederate flag? To many it's just a representation of Southern heritage. How would I be viewed if I tried to apply all cultural stereotypes to the majority in their cultures? (.....I bet I would be called a bigoted and close minded individual..... at best)
Are we, who are recognizing the historical significance of the confederate flag, somehow giving the idea that we are rednecks with a confederate flag glued to the back of our pickup truck and spend sunday nights dragging african americans to their death after drinking with them all day...I don't know much about the US history and I don't have an urgent desire to find out much about it either at this point in time; however, I am aware that the Confederate flag is used especially by extremist groups that are known for their racist attitudes and philosophies. And that is enough reason for me to have dislike for it and it is only natural that I tend to associate this particular flag with such groups.

Do you think I would be viewed in the same way if my avatar were one of these? Would you not question my actions/decisions and my fairness as a moderator?

(Bien> You needn't answer that last question as I already know that you do and what conclusions you have reached. :p)

http://a10.idata.over-blog.com/180x180/0/17/37/47/histoire/Svastika2.png

or

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_36/11363907180AIV69.jpg

or

http://panewhope.com/christian_symbol05.gif

or

http://jvall.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/anti_gay_and_lesbian_movements_sign.gif

I don't mean that people might necessarily show hatred or discriminate agaist me but that their pre-conceived ideas might change the way they perceived me as a person because of the symbol I associated myself with.

[prendrelemick]

and the actress who played Daisy Duke got plump.


Noooo!

Another factor still to mention is time. How long before the political meaning of flags and devices become quaint and for the tourist. Sounds mentioned the Chair in th The Tower of London where Jakobs was shot. I think it has been removed from display, because tourists, who would gleefully put there head on the chopping block for a photo opptunity, didn't like it - it was too recent. The same is true of the swaztika (once a religious symbol).

For me the confederate flag now has its place in the gift shop, its political significance, for all but a few, has worn out of it.

[dafydd manton]

Don't panic Mick, while Serious Cat's looking the other way, I saw some recent pictures, and she's still....well......Daisy Duke!

[prendrelemick]

I know ,I spent half the night googleing her too.

[dafydd manton]

Is that a euphemism?

[soundofmusic]

Yes. The truth is that hate groups actively use and display the Confederate flag, they are loud and they grab media attention. A lot of people may not be familiar with all the intricacies of the civil war but it's very easy to pick up the paper or watch the news and see the KKK marching with a Confederate flag.

You make a valid point, papayahed, in that the few crazies who are still around (like the fellow in June 2010 who dragged an African American to his death) have defiled other aspects of Southern history for everyone.
It's not that we don't remember the past as it was: I was a child in the south when we had separate toilets and water fountains, I recall the fear and anger when Kennedy and King were powerful voices; but their martyrdom made their voices even more powerful and enduring...
Now I must admit, and don't tell anyone, that nowadays, when I am surrounded by boomboxes, people shouting at all hours of the night and children playing in the streets at 2am, folks wearing Malcom X and Black Panther tees; I sometimes look back with a wistful tear and think of the days when I lived on a partially paved road with only 5 houses, the crazed folks who were using the lawnmower at 7am, tearing down the road, running over cats and the occasional old lady with the civil war flag hung on their green pickups, a gun rack with shotgun in place and full of beer...

Uh, that was before they began drinking and smoking weed with the people they hated, traded their pot in for blunts filled with cocaine, went to jail and finally moved north of the mason dixon line:icon_bs:


I had no idea who OJ was until his murder trial... And even after that, I recall him as "oh, that footballer who got away with murder, right?"Auschwitz might be open but how well would it go down if you wore a shirt with a svastika on it?

No one here is suggesting that the US history books should be re-written leaving out the South and the part it played; however, I sure do hope that South has more to be proud of than a flag that has been used by extremist groups and becoming synonymous with racism.

(Like the barbecues Sancho mentioned earlier! :D)I don't know much about the US history and I don't have an urgent desire to find out much about it either at this point in time; however, I am aware that the Confederate flag is used especially by extremist groups that are known for their racist attitudes and philosophies. And that is enough reason for me to have dislike for it and it is only natural that I tend to associate this particular flag with such groups.

Do you think I would be viewed in the same way if my avatar were one of these? Would you not question my actions/decisions and my fairness as a moderator?

(Bien> You needn't answer that last question as I already know that you do and what conclusions you have reached. :p)


I don't mean that people might necessarily show hatred or discriminate agaist me but that their pre-conceived ideas might change the way they perceived me as a person because of the symbol I associated myself with.

Yeah, I still think of OJ as a murderer; but I don't know anything about football and Michael Jackson had to die before I could begin to listen to his music.
Then again, I am not all that adaptable; I still think of you as the lovely fairy princess in your avatar.

I think if I found some lovely Etruscan or hindu piece of jewelry or furniture with a swastika; I wouldn't be too prejudiced to buy it.



Noooo!



Another factor still to mention is time. How long before the political meaning of flags and devices become quaint and for the tourist. Sounds mentioned the Chair in th The Tower of London where Jakobs was shot. I think it has been removed from display, because tourists, who would gleefully put there head on the chopping block for a photo opptunity, didn't like it - it was too recent. The same is true of the swaztika (once a religious symbol).

For me the confederate flag now has its place in the gift shop, its political significance, for all but a few, has worn out of it.

I heard the chair was sold at auction...or maybe it's at Madam Tussads...
You make a very good point


Don't panic Mick, while Serious Cat's looking the other way, I saw some recent pictures, and she's still....well......Daisy Duke!

Okay guys, it's time to lighten this thread...let's get a look at Daisy and her ample shorts....

I know ,I spent half the night googleing her too.
:drool5::lol:

Is that a euphemism?
:cornut::wink5:

[Sancho]

I know ,I spent half the night googleing her too.


Is that a euphemism?

So that's what we're calling now, eh? Ah well, er uh, ahem, I suppose I've googled at her too. But I was younger then and had more zip.

[El Viejo]

Are we, who are recognizing the historical significance of the confederate flag, somehow giving the idea that we are rednecks with a confederate flag glued to the back of our pickup truck and spend sunday nights dragging african americans to their death after drinking with them all day...

The flag has many different meanings to those who fought under it, fought against it, experienced heroism or atrocity associated with it, were enslaved under it, and so on. Hope you don't take what I see as the general view as an all-encompassing blanket.


I don't own a confederate flag, I probably would not have owned slaves even when it was a part of the southern way of life because I believe it immoral...

I think the same of myself, but Jefferson and Washington, who questioned the morality of slavery, owned slaves. No one acts 100% according to his principals. I would hope neither of us would have been a slave owner.


However, I doubt that if Josef Jakobs family still lives today; they think of the Tower of London, the place where their family member was shot 8 times while he sat in a chair in 1941, as a mere tourist attraction.

I doubt that the patient I had 20 years ago, who was a part of the twin experiments, would think of Auschwitz as a memorial...

I was talking about the general impression large masses of people might have of the Confederate Flag, the Tower of London, Auschwitz, and so on. Individuals and smaller groups, with more or less direct connections to events in the Tower of London, or Auschwitz, might have distinctly different associations than the general population. The Golden Gate Bridge triggers markedly different associations for most of the US, versus those who had a friend or relative that committed suicide by jumping from it.


The tower of Londons torture chamber and the death camps are not memorials; they are an example of mankinds fascination for the morbid and macabre.

Is it possible that they're meant as memorials, but attract the morbid?

Speaking of associations, I heard this list re: what different generations thought of when someone mentioned JFK:

1950's - A scheming Red undermining the American Way
1960's - King Arthur
1970's - Jackie O's first husband
1980's - An airport