Freedom of religion: Where do you draw the line?

[SilentMute]

I heard this on the news today while I was waiting in the financial aide office. I don't know the full story, but this is what I gathered:

There was a student who wants to become a counselor--apparently to people under the age of eighteen. She stated that she believed that homosexuality was wrong on religious grounds. She is being forced to take homosexuality sensitivity training, or else she won't get her degree. The student, I gather, is complaining of religious discrimination.

This issue is complicated. We believe in the freedom of religion, and therefore even if we don't agree with other people's beliefs--we have to accept them. On the other hand, we have to balance religious freedom with the rights of other people who choose to live an alternate lifestyle.

The student claims that she will abide to the ethics of her profession. Many people claim that she cannot possibly do this, because she has a conflict of interests. I don't think it is totally impossible. I suspect many of my friends that work in gynecological/obstetric offices don't approve of abortion for religious reasons, but they do discuss the options with women who are considering it and refer them to the appropriate places. They don't refuse them care.

What I find interesting is that while this is an issue, there are hospitals that are owned by religious organizations. These hospitals are allowed to refuse to give rape victims "morning after" pills due to religious reasons.

Do you believe that someone cannot uphold the ethics of their profession if it conflicts with their religious beliefs? Do you think that religious freedom has to be limited if it violates another group's rights?

For the record, I do believe that a person can uphold ethics even if there is a conflict with their personal beliefs. I've seen many people do it, and frankly--I have managed to do it. Not everyone can, of course. Usually, to be able to do it, you have to believe that something else is more important than your objections. My belief in other people's rights and the importance of maintaining peace in society often helps me overcome personal objections to other people's lifestyles.

[MarkBastable]

I don't think it's really a religion issue. It's an employment issue.

The employer is saying, "This is what the job entails" and the candidate is saying, "I don't want to do that." So it seems fair to me that the employer says, "So - you don't want to do the job then?"

Why she doesn't want to do it isn't relevant. If her reason was - I dunno - that she didn't like the wallpaper, no one would suggest it was unfair of the employer to ditch her application. So why does it have to be considered because her objection is based on her beliefs?

To put it the other way round, would it be fair to refuse me as job as a priest if I were to object -on the grounds of my beliefs - to the bit of the job that involves professing the authority of the Pope?

[OrphanPip]

Mark is right, it's an employment issue.

It is the official stance of the APA, with the full support of thousands of scientific studies, that discrimination against homosexual teens is a major cause of mental health issues for all teens, not just homosexual ones. How could she do her job properly if she is complicit in the discrimination. Can you trust her to provide the support necessary to a troubled teen if in the back of her head she thinks they deserve to be discriminated against.

And, in anticipation, yes I am promoting the militant gay agenda, one step closer to world domination everyone.

Edit: An issue I feel similarly about. In Saskatchewan some public employees, marriage commissioners, whose job is to provide civil marriages to residents of Saskatchewan, want the right to refuse to provide the service to homosexuals on religious grounds. In my opinion it would be nothing more than state sanctioned bigotry, they are public employees and required to serve any citizen equally.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2010/05/13/sask-gay-rights-marriage-commissioner-courts.html

[soundofmusic]

This reminds me of a similar situation, involving peoples personal beliefs and their ability to do their job. I frequently work with a social worker and chaplin who are Christian. Often when we have been at the beside of a dying patient; these ladies begin to ask the people to pray in the form of these womens faith, "tell Jesus you're sorry" even when the patients are Jewish, Buddist, Muslim...

I find that for many, they just can't separate work and their personal beliefs.

[The Atheist]

Excellent story, thanks.

It contains several of the reasons why I am a "militant" atheist.

Religion is a very bad joke.

[BienvenuJDC]

Atheist...your opinion and solely your opinion.
And it seems that you have proven a point. While some cannot separate their religious views, others cannot separate their anti-religious views.

Is it also possible that someone's anti-religious views are just as equally damaging to a person's rights? If a teacher states in class an affirmation that "There is NO God!" Does that not violate the rights of every God fearing student? This happens every day.

[The Atheist]

Atheist...your opinion and solely your opinion.
And it seems that you have proven a point. While some cannot separate their religious views, others cannot separate their anti-religious views.

Do you have any evidence that that happens?


Is it also possible that someone's anti-religious views are just as equally damaging to a person's rights? If a teacher states in class an affirmation that "There is NO God!" Does that not violate the rights of every God fearing student? This happens every day.

I don't know of any case where an atheist would do that in a classroom.

There has never been a lawsuit against atheists preaching non-religion, while there have been several where religions have tried to get their illogical beliefs taught at schools. There is no atheist Dover.

[OrphanPip]

Is it also possible that someone's anti-religious views are just as equally damaging to a person's rights? If a teacher states in class an affirmation that "There is NO God!" Does that not violate the rights of every God fearing student? This happens every day.

This comes off particularly silly for people who live outside the USA. I was taught the Old Testament in high school, we literally had to study it book by book.

It would have been nice to have an atheist position presented in the class.

Edit: Just to expand on the case in the OP.

I don't think she should be barred from holding a job as a youth councilor, but making her take a course to ensure that she knows the proper way to treat LGBT youth and maintain professional standards is not discrimination. She can't be allowed to promote her religious views on homosexuality in a position of anonymity. There is very few ways to hold councilors accountable, because most of their work is done behind closed doors. In this kind of profession, they have to be particularly sure of their practitioners' professionalism.

[JuniperWoolf]

I don't know of any case where an atheist would do that in a classroom.

Especially since religion shouldn't be discussed in a public school room at all; you know, with the seperation of church and state. My teachers weren't even allowed to tell us what their religious beliefs were (but I learned after I graduated that my English teacher was a witch, which I thought was cool).


I was taught the Old Testament in high school, we literally had to study it book by book.

Yuck. Catholic school?

[OrphanPip]

Yuck. Catholic school?

Not even, technically I went to a secular school, but some remnants of Quebec's religious school boards remained, I've heard they've mostly been phased out now. It was part of my grade 8 moral and religious education class, we had to study the Old Testemant, then they threw in some info about Judaism and Islam near the end, with a few native creation stories.

[billl]

I went to American public schools and never heard any teacher say that God doesn't exist. It might happen every day, but how many times per day? In what percentage of schools does it happen even once a year?

It'd be wrong where it happens (until University, of course, where a certain autonomy and maturity is assumed), but it doesn't seem like a significant menace to our liberty, to me. I could be wrong, though, I guess. I don't have any actual statistics in front of me.

[MarkBastable]

Is it also possible that someone's anti-religious views are just as equally damaging to a person's rights? If a teacher states in class an affirmation that "There is NO God!" Does that not violate the rights of every God fearing student? This happens every day.


I can't see how any rights would be violated. I'm not sure any human being has the right never to hear an opposing view. That's not only impractical, it's undesirable. Still - if you can't tell atheist kids that there's a God, and you can't tell theist kids there isn't a God, you can't actually bring the subject into schools at all. Which many might think is a very good idea.

However, in the UK, the curriculum for religious education covers all the major religions. My seven-year-old has been exposed to the rudiments of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism. Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism and probably a couple more. The existence of God is not questioned. It's a given. The course has not, as far as I know, touched on atheism, possibly because there are no pretty festivals to explain and draw.

Speaking as a contented and tolerant atheist, I'm very happy that she's getting all this information at school. That's what school's for - to give you access to ideas other than those that surround you at home. I can't see why anyone would object to the classroom teaching of any philosophy - as long as it's part of range of similar teachings. And it really shouldn't matter what the teacher's own belief system is.

That's quite different from the situation under discussion, where someone is refusing to do the job they are paid for, because of some belief they hold. And it's disingenuous to muddy the issue by bringing in the education thing.

The question is, bienvenue, do you think the employer should appoint this person or not, given that she has said she won't carry out the duties the employer expects? You might not like what the employer expects, but that's not the point - the job is the job.

And if you think that the employer should allow it, then would you support me in my attempts to get a job as, say, a sound engineer on a TV evangelism show, even though I refuse to mike-up anyone who purports to have been saved by the infinite grace of the Lord?

[Lokasenna]

There needs to be diversity in the classroom, even if you attend a faith school. My school was C of E in a big way - it was a cathedral school. And while this did involve having a lot of Anglican Christianity foisted on us on a daily basis, to be fair to the school we were given a comprehensive introduction to Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and even Atheism; the school was also very careful to promote an understanding of the cultural arguments around homosexuality, contraception, abortion and other issues that religions tend to get heated over.

Unfortunately, this is, so I understand, and unusual position for a faith school - one of my best friends went to the local Catholic school (and is himself a devout, though liberal, Catholic), and he informs me that his 'sex education' lesson on contraception involved the teacher holding up a sealed condom and informing the class: "This is a condom. I shan't bother opening it, because you will never use one." And that was it, apparently - that tick was safely on the curriculum.

To return to the OP, this girl has no business attempting to take on a job that requires an exceptional degree of empathy, tolerance and understanding, when her own deeply held beliefs get in the way. It is no more ridiculous than a devout Catholic applying for work in an abortion clinic, and then demanding that all abortions cease in the work-place because it offends her sensibilities.

[The Atheist]

(but I learned after I graduated that my English teacher was a witch, which I thought was cool).

I quite like Wiccans; they have the best parties!



There needs to be diversity in the classroom, even if you attend a faith school. My school was C of E in a big way - it was a cathedral school. And while this did involve having a lot of Anglican Christianity foisted on us on a daily basis, to be fair to the school we were given a comprehensive introduction to Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and even Atheism; the school was also very careful to promote an understanding of the cultural arguments around homosexuality, contraception, abortion and other issues that religions tend to get heated over.

I love Anglicans even more! They're so darned inclusive, and Rowan Williams has insisted on it, to his eternal credit.



To return to the OP, this girl has no business attempting to take on a job that requires an exceptional degree of empathy, tolerance and understanding, when her own deeply held beliefs get in the way. It is no more ridiculous than a devout Catholic applying for work in an abortion clinic, and then demanding that all abortions cease in the work-place because it offends her sensibilities.

Wins the thread - brilliantly put.

[SilentMute]

In this particular case, I have to agree that the girl probably shouldn't be a counselor. Since she apparently believes very strongly in her beliefs, she probably couldn't be neutral...and there was a concern that she couldn't be compassionate to a confused teen--who would be in bad need of it. I don't believe you can cure a person of homosexuality, and I don't see any reason why they should be cured (since I don't believe they go to hell). There are many religious people that can't respect free will, which their Lord gave to humanity.

However, while the girl is a poor example of my point--I still believe that some people can abide by the ethics of their profession even if their belief system might have a few personal objections. In life, we are bound to meet people we don't approve of. It isn't just in sexual preference. We may not approve of their lifestyle in other ways: how they raise their kids, who they pick as a mate, what they do as recreation, what their religion is, etc. Some of us, though, do go into fields that require us to serve society--all of it. I don't know how easy it would be--if possible--to find a doctor, a policeman, a firefighter who didn't have their own views that didn't object to something. I've known many Catholics who do work in the medical field, and even though they may have their own views, I have never seen them violate the code of ethics. As I've said, I do know nurses who counsel women about abortions--even if they don't approve inwardly. They may be more reserved with the patient, but I've never known them to be inappropriate. They may list other options in addition to the abortion--but they never try to force the woman to make another decision.

You may not approve of a serial killer or a pedophile, but if you are a doctor you still have to treat them like any other patient. If you are a police officer, you also have to abide by certain ethics. By law, these people still have rights. You aren't allowed to abuse them, no matter how repulsive their crimes are.

There are always bad apples, of course, that break the rules. However, I know many people who are able to uphold their ethics despite personal feelings. I'm going into medical coding, and I have to obey these ethics just like a nurse or doctor. I plan to do so to the best of my ability...because even if I don't approve of the people, I realize that these ethics are in place to protect everyone--and to not follow them would jeopardize the system. Also, I wouldn't want to go to jail and lose my job--particularly after all the work I'm doing to become a medical coder. As my teacher often says, I wouldn't look good in orange.

[The Atheist]

I've known many Catholics who do work in the medical field, and even though they may have their own views, I have never seen them violate the code of ethics.

They may not violate actual codes of ethics, but many/most/all of them behave in a way I consider highly unethical - in matters pertaining to abortion.

I don't want to get into an abortion debate, but doctors must retain impartiality during any discussion of the subject and Roman Catholics cannot do that.

The same could be said in euthanasia - I don't know of a single pro-euthanasia christian doctor. Right now, I am involved in a movement to allow voluntary euthanasia in NZ, but we are constantly thwarted by medical council administration, most of which is christian. That christians are a tiny minority of NZ doctors is even more galling, because the council is submitting their own religious beliefs instead of the majority opinion of doctors.

[OrphanPip]

I actually have more information on the case in the OP.

In this interview given for some Christian propaganda group/legal defense fund, she clearly states that she refused to council a homosexual youth. Clearly, this woman is not capable of acting professionally in her job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEshf5F4JFQ&playnext=1&videos=IplDxNhln-U&feature=sub

[Lokasenna]

Does she not see the irony in trying to portray herself as the victim of intolerance?

Outdated though her views may be, I suppose she is entitled to them - however, when she chose to embark on a social-services style career, she should have considered that the job requires you to be entirely unjudemental, while her particular brand of Christianity is all about passing judgement.

Not only is it bigoted, but it's also profoundly stupid.

[dafydd manton]

I should have thought that it is perfectly simple. If you take your religion that seriously, surely you wouldn't put yourself in a position where you might come up against this kind of problem. You would look at the possible ramifications, and if there could be a problem, that job isn't for you. There are certain things that my beliefs would preclude, so I avoid them. It isn't really rocket science. To claim that one is a victim is little more than a reverse form of bigotry.

[SilentMute]

OrphanPip, thank you for the clip. I didn't realize that she had refused to counsel a patient. That puts a different spin on things. I heard this on one of those news channels that give bits of information and repeat continuously. I didn't realize they probably tend to edit and therefore leave out information. What I had heard is that the girl had been in class, had been discussing her religious beliefs with some friends, and what she said got back to the higher-ups and they were threatening to drop her from the course. While I understood their concern, I did think this might be unfair. However, this is clearly not the case--and this girl did violate the ethics of the profession. If she couldn't counsel this person, the appropriate action is to refer them.

In my experience, most of the medical community is Catholic. I realize there are fanatics. I've known quite a few. What is particularly annoying about fanatics is that they are hardly saints themselves. Some of my family thought my stepfather was possessed by demons (he had a seizure condition). Yet, they knowingly allowed a preacher to molest their children because they believed he was the son of God, and he was "blessing" them.

A person can avoid certain things if they have a problem with them. If you don't like abortions, don't get employed at an abortion clinic. However, you can't totally avoid it. If you go into the medical field, you may have to take care of someone who wants to have an abortion. If you flip burgers at Burger King, a co-worker may be thinking about having an abortion. Living in a society where people believe different things, we can't help but be faced with them.

I believe it is possible to act impartial regardless of what your underlying beliefs are. It is hard, but it isn't impossible. What fanatics fail to grasp about their own religion is that God gave people free will, and therefore if you serve him--then you have to respect other people's choices...even if you think they are going to Hell for them. To maintain peace in society, we have to abide by certain rules and ethics. If you are a doctor, you have to respect your patient's decisions and do the appropriate thing. I think some people fear that if they refer someone to an abortion clinic, they are an accessory and risk damnation. However, I think you have to have faith that God is a little more understanding than that. Maintaining society's laws helps maintain the Ten Commandments.

I don't doubt this woman does feel like a victim of persecution. There are people that truly believe in damnation, and to them this is worse than having their lives threatened.

We do draw the lines at murder and pedophilia (the preacher I referred to did go to jail). This woman did violate the ethics of her profession, and she should be denied her degree. However, I would hope that it would never come to the point that Christians are denied jobs because people make the assumption that they can't uphold the ethics of their profession. To say that is like saying that all black people are criminals. Yes, you can find plenty of examples to prove your point--but it is still untrue.

[caddy_caddy]

No , this has nothing to do with religious discrimination . They're right in what they have done .

This is a problem too to people who are religious and their counselor or psychiatric are of different religion or not religious . Once my psychiatric suggested one thing to me in my first visit to him , so I stopped going to him . What he suggested fit him/ his belief not his patient . And the problem remains with another one .
They were not able to understand what I really feel and think .
Now if I want to go to another one I 'll try to be sure he is muslim like me .

[soundofmusic]

They may not violate actual codes of ethics, but many/most/all of them behave in a way I consider highly unethical - in matters pertaining to abortion.

I don't want to get into an abortion debate, but doctors must retain impartiality during any discussion of the subject and Roman Catholics cannot do that.

The same could be said in euthanasia - I don't know of a single pro-euthanasia christian doctor. Right now, I am involved in a movement to allow voluntary euthanasia in NZ, but we are constantly thwarted by medical council administration, most of which is christian. That christians are a tiny minority of NZ doctors is even more galling, because the council is submitting their own religious beliefs instead of the majority opinion of doctors.

With my doctor associates, over the past 25 years, I find that as young men they feel less strongly about doing an abortion and filling out paper work that makes it look like a miscarriage; as young men of 35, they also think that a life past 70 years lacks "quality of life" and would be only too willing, if legal, to put dad out of his misery and inherit his car collection, home and young mistress...

Oddly enough, as these me get into their mid-50's, they begin to question how badly affected a fetus is before considering abortion and how little a person can do before they consider euthenaisa...except when their fathers have a new car collection, a new house and their assisted living is costing 10,000/month..

As to the teacher, the practical thing to do would be to go to her superiors, say that she has a young person in her office who, she believes would benefit from a more experienced counselor...poof, no problem...

[Revolte]

Might be the anarchist in me, but if you ask me it's too simple to debate on. Everyone should be free to believe or disbelieve in any god or goddess. This statement is very clear and any "gray area" is really just made up. If someone oppresses some one elses view on religion, then there is no freedom of religion going on. If their religion says to oppress, then its a cop out to have and use power, nothing more nothing less and anyone in those shoes knows it, and if they don't they probably don't think much about what they believe in the first place, which I guess comes along with faith sometimes.

So anyway, at the end of the day, no one should ever do anything to physically or emotionally oppress someones view of religion. Discussing the subject and maybe even explaining to them why what they believe is disgusting ( homophobia and stuff like that ) is a different matter, as it doesn't stop at belief. ( for example I am straight, but was walking to a gay pride party in san fran last month, three people got shot, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM. That's not ok and to do anything that supports something like that should be opposed. )

[LMK]

To the OP, in the US Constitution, one of the most misunderstood amendments...oh who are we kidding most of them are misunderstood and misinterpreted, and I don't know why because it's not a long document...however, the 1st Ammendment of the United States Constitution is the following:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Yep, that's it. You see there is no freedom of religion, there is a freedome from a government establishing a religion to which US Citizens must be members.

BIG difference.

We should be tolerant of all differences and embrace them, but I agree this is an employment issue, not a religious one.