I'm looking for a novel that has an anti-villain

[spookymulder93]

I want to feel for the bad guy. I want a bad guy that has good reason as to why he does the evil things that he does.

[tiredstudent]

The count of monte cristo. revenge is a meal best served cold.

but i guess hes the main guy..... hes just the victim who then does bad things. does that count?

[nathank]

Paradise lost. The bad guy doesn't get any "badder" (Satan). Yet the poem is written so that you can't help but feel sorry for him to a large extent and sympathize with his toils.

[spookymulder93]

hmmm. I see Amazon has this-http://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Lost-Novel-Based-Milton/dp/0963962132/ref=pd_sim_b_1

You see I'm not a big fan of poetry.

[JuniperWoolf]

You see I'm not a big fan of poetry.

It's actually not bad, it reads more like a Shakespearean play. Satan really does make a great anti-villain, too.

Lolita's an idea. For a child molester, Humbert Humbert is pretty depressing and you wind up feeling sorry for the guy.

[kiki1982]

The Rochester-part in Jane Eyre? He is thoroughly bad, but he charms everyone to death clearly and we all love him by the end :angel:, still, he's the devil in desguise (literally even). Great character.

[Lokasenna]

How about Hugo's Les Miserables? Inspector Javert is a tremendously compelling character who is technically on the side of good; his absolute belief in law, order and justice make him utterly untractable when dealing with the moral ambiguities of life.

[kiki1982]

Yes! I didn't think about that! You really feel kind of sorry for him in the end...

[Lokasenna]

Yes! I didn't think about that! You really feel kind of sorry for him in the end...

As Hugo himself puts it (translated, of course):


Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand: their majesty, the majesty peculiar to the human conscience, clings to them in the midst of horror; they are virtues which have one vice, - error. The honest, pitiless joy of a fanatic in the full flood of his atrocity preserves a certain lugubriously venerable radiance. Without himself suspecting the fact, Javert in his formidable happiness was to be pitied, as is every ignorant man who triumphs. Nothing could be so poignant and so terrible as this face, wherein was displayed all that may be designated as the evil of the good.

[Alexander III]

May I sugest The Picture Of Dorian Gray

[Evaril]

Othello. Try feeling sorry for Iago.

[mal4mac]

I want a bad guy that has good reason as to why he does the evil things that he does.

Isn't that an oxymoron? Can you have a good reason to do bad things? If an action is evil then on the application of good reason shouldn't you refrain from doing it? Otherwise how can it be "good" reason?

If I ended up feeling sorry for Satan and Humbert I would be very worried about the state of my soul.

Are there any works that can help you refrain you from feeling sorry for the bad guy? Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics might be the central suggestion, but it's a hard grind and his penchant for slave ownership worries me.

Jane Austen's "Emma" has a bad guy who thinks he has good reasons to mess Emma about (a bit) to get what he wants (which is something very good.) It's interesting, and funny, to see how Emma and friends deal with him. (Not by feeling sorry for him that's for sure! But also not by casting him into hell.) This character doesn't plum the depths of evil (nowhere near!) like Satan or Humbert, but it's a very good novel (in every sense.)

For Humberts, it shows how a character who has inappropriate feelings for a young girl should deal with them. Austen expresses this very subtly towards the end of the novel. "Emma" should be required reading in the paedo wing... and for those who like Humbert too much...

[kiki1982]

Churchill of Emma is not really 'the bad guy'.

SEVERE SPOILERS

He hasn't even be able to attach her, so essentially, no-one has a reason to be really angry with him. Although, they do have a reason to be angry, not with him, but with themselves, because they were all deceived, and that is what mortifies practically the whole community in the end, but they of course blame him, as people do. It has never been yourself who is at fault.
He is rich, he is handsome (blonde and blue-eyed no doubt) and looks, indeed, like an angel. Their opinion is already formed before he comes to Highbury: he will court Emma, he must court her, is there anyone else to court after all?
In short, he never courted her, never did anything to attach her, only the people thought he was and at a certain moment she fancies he has asked her, in covered terms, for her hand in marriage, whereas he has done or said nothing that denotes it, apart from a lot of imagination which already dreamed up that scenario before he was even on the scene.

SEVERE SPOILERS OVER

He is hardly an evil man. He is rather there to afford Austen the means of uncovering the judgmentalness of 'the community'.

[TheFifthElement]

I'm reading The Moon and Sixpence by W Somerset Maugham at the moment. Charles Strickland is a pretty un-nice guy (wouldn't say necessarily evil, but he's not nice) with, I suppose, a good reason for his behaviour. He's a fairly unsympathetic character anyway. It's a good read.

Have you ever read any Japanese fiction? I find that in Japanese fiction they tend to avoid the idea of 'hero' and 'villain' entirely. There are people who do good things and bad things. It's a subtle difference. If you like horror type genre you might like something like Out by Natsuo Kirino or one of Ryu Murakami's novels.

[kelby_lake]

I want to feel for the bad guy. I want a bad guy that has good reason as to why he does the evil things that he does.

Well, Frollo in Hunchback of Notre Dame has issues that make you feel sorry for him.

[kelby_lake]

Lolita too.

[_Shannon_]

Native Son by Richard Wright and In Cold Blood by Truman Capote come readily to mind.

[Pensive]

How about Madame Defarge?

[Evaril]

Umm... Crime and Punishment?

[dfloyd]

Paul Gaugin. Strickland is necessarily evil, but his ability to paint recompenses his evil ways to some extent. However, he gets his comeuppance by contracting and dying of leprosy in Tahati. The movie version with George Sanders as Striclkand is worth watching. Sanders, a bit of a cad in real life, seems to enjoy the role of a cad par excellence.

If you like The Moon, be sure to read Cakes and Ale, the fictionalized life of Thomas Hardy.

but her knitting at the guilotin was brought to an abrupt end by Miss Pross.

[Gregory Samsa]

Read James Ellroy. Many bad guys and cops almost compete with the crooks to see who can be more corrupt and violent

[DonovanTalbot]

Captain Nemo in 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea

Dr Moreau in The Island of Dr Moreau

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE=dfloyd;925781]Paul Gaugin. Strickland is necessarily evil, but his ability to paint recompenses his evil ways to some extent. However, he gets his comeuppance by contracting and dying of leprosy in Tahati. The movie version with George Sanders as Striclkand is worth watching. Sanders, a bit of a cad in real life, seems to enjoy the role of a cad par excellence.

If you like The Moon, be sure to read Cakes and Ale, the fictionalized life of Thomas Hardy. [QUOTE}

I don't think that the author would have agreed with you. Charles Strickland isn't evil, he is just completely indifferent to other people's feelings. He doesn't deliberately intend to damage the lives of those he comes into contact with but shrugs his shoulders if they are damaged as a result, because the only thing that motivates him is his art; all else being of no consequence.

[kelby_lake]

I don't think that the author would have agreed with you. Charles Strickland isn't evil, he is just completely indifferent to other people's feelings. He doesn't deliberately intend to damage the lives of those he comes into contact with but shrugs his shoulders if they are damaged as a result, because the only thing that motivates him is his art; all else being of no consequence.

Sounds like Lermontov in 'The Red Shoes' (It's a film but one of the best :) )

'You cannot have it both ways. A dancer who relies upon the doubtful comforts of human love can never be a great dancer. Never.'

[Emil Miller]

Sounds like Lermontov in 'The Red Shoes' (It's a film but one of the best :) )

'You cannot have it both ways. A dancer who relies upon the doubtful comforts of human love can never be a great dancer. Never.'

Lermontov doesn't approach the level of indifference shown by Strickland, who sinks to utter degradation in pursuit of his ideal. Anyone who wants to know how art becomes a total obsession should read this book. Based on the life of Paul Gauguin this novel teaches the reader more about the psychology of painting than any colour-plate art book.

[PrimordialBeast]

I back Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment, and Captain Nemo in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Also, felt sometimes for Wolf Larsen in The Sea Wolf

[AuntShecky]

Your initial inquiry did specify novels, but what about one
of Shakespeare's "problem" plays, The Merchant of Venice. How can contemporary audiences approach this play and its villain, Shylock, in the light of history? Can we reconcile our innate disdain for all kinds of discrimination, particularly anti-Semitism--especially with the knowledge about horrifying events before and during the Second World War? Yet apart from the famous soliloquy in which Shylock pleads for sympathy, Shakespeare paints the character as a relentless, blood-thirsty villain. (Yet Shakespeare's depiction of Shylock is, believe it or not, actually less vile than that of his contemporary, Christopher Marlowe.

If you have time, take a look at this NY Times column on the very issue broached in the opening post of this thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/opinion/21dowd.html?ref=maureendowd

[DonovanTalbot]

Tom Ripley penned by Patricia Highsmith

Patrick Bateman in American Psycho

The Parker professional thief series penned by Richard Stark (pseudonym of detective writer Donald E Westlake)

[kelby_lake]

Your initial inquiry did specify novels, but what about one
of Shakespeare's "problem" plays, The Merchant of Venice. How can contemporary audiences approach this play and its villain, Shylock, in the light of history? Can we reconcile our innate disdain for all kinds of discrimination, particularly anti-Semitism--especially with the knowledge about horrifying events before and during the Second World War? Yet apart from the famous soliloquy in which Shylock pleads for sympathy, Shakespeare paints the character as a relentless, blood-thirsty villain. (Yet Shakespeare's depiction of Shylock is, believe it or not, actually less vile than that of his contemporary, Christopher Marlowe.

If you have time, take a look at this NY Times column on the very issue broached in the opening post of this thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/opinion/21dowd.html?ref=maureendowd

He's not a blood thirsty villain- he wants vengeance for all the racism he's faced. He loves his daughter even though his daughter is mean to him and turns her back on the religion. Yes, Shylock is a typical stereotype but Shakespeare shows us an eloquent, flawed character- the product of an intolerant racist society.

The character has been played in a sympathetic light since Kean played it in the early-ish 19th century so it's not as if it was only the events of WW2 that prompted a re-examination.

[ennison]

Mean to him? Gee he was a prat of a dad! But he arouses my sympathy as a widow not as a Jew. He mixes in merchant circles where hypocrisy is rife - theirs and his. When I said earlier today that Shakespeare had a barbaric streak I reckon the villainous portrayal of the usurious Jew comes into it (but of course just because he was Jew doesn't mean he couldn't be vile. Everyone must demand the equality of villainy!) but the play doesn't even leave any redemption for old and ruined Shylock so yup definitely a barbaric streak and voyeuristic pleasure in the downfall of that character in that text. But still a fantastic play

[PeterL]

Othello. Try feeling sorry for Iago.

I'm with you on that. Iago got a raw deal.

[Bibliophile79]

Jasper in The Mystery of Edwin Drood
Lestat in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles

[SilvanDitties]

Frankenstein's monster.

[Calidore]

In the Nibelungenlied, Kriemhild's obsessive pursuit of vengeance for the death of her husband Siegfried turns her into a villain.

Also, Titus Andronicus has two anti-villains in Titus himself and the Queen of the Goths.

[ennison]

What about Saul in the OT. He really got my sympathy as a youngster. I just thought he got treated harshly for being human and it was the prophet that was the bad egg! Would he fit your anti-villain pantheon?

[Low Feedback]

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