Stepford Wives? [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

Lulim

07-15-2010, 01:16 PM

(...) Is doing housework or keeping where one lives tidy and clean (or worrying about those things) against women's rights movement?
Not in my opinion. But housework has always been a womens' domain; no need to take up a fight for that.

I don't know how it was in other countries, in Germany, a wife needed her husbands permission to take on a job (provided her domestic duties didn't suffer), and the husband could cancel his wifes' job (without her consent, or even asking her). This law was abandoned in 1957.

Why does a man get a pat at the back when they fix a car, dig a hole or "accomplish" some other task that is considered "manly" while a woman gets frowns or sarcastic comments for doing something slightly "domestic"?
Domestic duties were always considered as lowly tasks. Better-off-people had employees for that. There was no special education or training needed for cleaning, or doing the laundry. And it got paid poorly.
And, more importantly, men got paid for their work, they earned (traditionally, not so much anymore) the living for the family: the work had more value thereby.

Why do even women feel proud to declare they can handle a drill or change the oil in their cars but refuse to learn how to cook a meal from scratch?
Perhaps they feel, or hope having a larger share of that value inherent in men's work?

Scheherazade

07-15-2010, 02:01 PM

Thanks for your reply, Lulim. :)
Not in my opinion. But housework has always been a womens' domain; no need to take up a fight for that.I have no problem with doing the housework and am not questioning why it is considered women's domain (not at the moment at least :D). What I would like to understand is why doing one's housework is considered "lowly" as you put it. I do not clean or cook because I am female but because I want to live in a tidy house and have some decent meal every now and then.

I would like to emphasise that I do not mind being lazy or having ready meals at times; what I am beginning to mind is that I have to justify my actions when I clean my house or spend time in the kitchen. I would like to understand why these are hurting (!) the feminist movement or offending anyone who consider themselves feminists.

Does being a feminist today mean that one needs to refuse doing things that used to be in women's domain?
Perhaps they feel, or hope having a larger share of that value inherent in men's work?Surely there is a bigger value in being able to do any job whether it is considered men's or women's domain?

The Comedian> I hear what you are saying but... Come on! We know you want to comment!

:D

mikemaster70

07-15-2010, 02:33 PM

I would like to emphasise that I do not mind being lazy or having ready meals at times; what I am beginning to mind is that I have to justify my actions when I clean my house or spend time in the kitchen. I would like to understand why these are hurting (!) the feminist movement or offending anyone who consider themselves feminists.

Does being a feminist today mean that one needs to refuse doing things that used to be in women's domain?Surely there is a bigger value in being able to do any job whether it is considered men's or women's domain?

I see what your saying and have often wonder it myself. I take it as in a double edged sword; you can do one thing, but it's going to mean something else. You can also take the same argument and place it on men. If a man begins to do, traditionally what is seen as "women's work," then the man is automatically homosexual or effeminate, which I don't see how it is a bad thing because being able to relate to the opposite sex means you can communicate more easily. Given I am a gay man and I enjoy cleaning and cooking, but that doesn't mean I should be thought of as any less of a man, more than a woman who enjoys working on cars, establishing herself as a businesswoman, or watching sports should be considered any less of a woman.

Personally, I believe a big part of the Feminist Movement was being able to choose whether a woman wants to go out and get a job, or stay at home. After that, I just think it became a little too much. It almost seems as if sometimes some feminists are trying to put men down. No one sex is better than the other, just like no one race is better than the other. I believe a true feminist is a woman who takes control of her life, despite the stigmas society has put on her, and does not have to justify why she is doing what she is doing. Just my two cents on the matter :)

JuniperWoolf

07-15-2010, 02:48 PM

Surely there is a bigger value in being able to do any job whether it is considered men's or women's domain?

Should be, but that's not reality is it? There's a stigma associated with housework, this whole "get back to the kitchen, *****" mentality. There's some honour and class associated with tinkering with cars, you can't say the same about unclogging a drain or washing undergarments. Housework is difficult, and should be treated with the same amount of respect and reverence as any other form of labour. Unfortunately, it isn't. It's been classified as "lower," and also as "women's work." In that frame of mind, housework can be seen as an icon of the low status of women.

...what I am beginning to mind is that I have to justify my actions when I clean my house or spend time in the kitchen. I would like to understand why these are hurting (!) the feminist movement or offending anyone who consider themselves feminists.

The fact that you do housework isn't just fine, it's necessary. the feminist movement isn't all about people either living in slop or using men as slaves to tidy up after their wives (as women have been used in the very recent past). Women's rights issues against housework are more about equal division of labour within the household. All women should be self sufficient, and therefore they should be trained to work. This gives them security, and also self-worth. If a woman is working leading her own fulfilling life, and so is the man that she lives with, yet when they get home she is the only one cleaning the house, rearing the children and cooking the meals while he sits around and does absolutely nothing, this is against the feminist movement. Everybody who lives in a household and has an able body should share in the work of keeping it clean.

Emil Miller

07-15-2010, 03:00 PM

I see what your saying and have often wonder it myself. I take it as in a double edged sword; you can do one thing, but it's going to mean something else. You can also take the same argument and place it on men. If a man begins to do, traditionally what is seen as "women's work," then the man is automatically homosexual or effeminate, which I don't see how it is a bad thing because being able to relate to the opposite sex means you can communicate more easily. Given I am a gay man and I enjoy cleaning and cooking, but that doesn't mean I should be thought of as any less of a man, more than a woman who enjoys working on cars, establishing herself as a businesswoman, or watching sports should be considered any less of a woman.

Personally, I believe a big part of the Feminist Movement was being able to choose whether a woman wants to go out and get a job, or stay at home. After that, I just think it became a little too much. It almost seems as if sometimes some feminists are trying to put men down. No one sex is better than the other, just like no one race is better than the other. I believe a true feminist is a woman who takes control of her life, despite the stigmas society has put on her, and does not have to justify why she is doing what she is doing. Just my two cents on the matter :)

I can see why housework is considered women's work, because that was their traditional occupation as the joint head of a family and to some extent it still is. However, if, for whatever reason, a male remains single, he has no recourse other than to do it himself unless he can afford to hire people to do it for him. Therefore, there is nothing effeminate in a male doing housework just there is nothing unfeminine in a female doing it.

Lulim

07-15-2010, 03:11 PM

(...) What I would like to understand is why doing one's housework is considered "lowly" as you put it. I do not clean or cook because I am female but because I want to live in a tidy house and have some decent meal every now and then.
I'm doing these things also, and I don't mind it, because I prefer self-cooked meals to fast food, and a clean house to a dirty one. I do those things for my own comfort, and not because I'm told to.

I tried an historical approach (therefore the expression "lowly"), that's why I mentioned the example with women only being able to go to work by their husbands grace. Otherwise, they were restricted to housework, not being able to earn their own money, completely depending on their husband, and being in a somewhat inferior position.

I would like to emphasise that I do not mind being lazy or having ready meals at times; what I am beginning to mind is that I have to justify my actions when I clean my house or spend time in the kitchen. I would like to understand why these are hurting (!) the feminist movement or offending anyone who consider themselves feminists.
I haven't been in a situation when I had to defend my cleaning the house or my cooking yet, and I can only speculate that peoples' considering it harmful to the feminist movement is connected to above mentioned inferior position of housewives: Your "voluntarily submitting" to an obsolete role model, how is the feminist movement supposed to liberate women if women are contented in their position. -- That's not my opinion but my guess!

It is still strange. I mean, you aren't doing housework exclusively. You are working too.

{edit}I needed ages to compose this post; hopefully, it is somewhat correct (in regard to grammar and spelling), at least.

Scheherazade

07-15-2010, 04:33 PM

Should be, but that's not reality is it? There's a stigma associated with housework, this whole "get back to the kitchen, *****" mentality. There's some honour and class associated with tinkering with cars, you can't say the same about unclogging a drain or washing undergarments. Housework is difficult, and should be treated with the same amount of respect and reverence as any other form of labour. Unfortunately, it isn't. It's been classified as "lower," and also as "women's work." In that frame of mind, housework can be seen as an icon of the low status of women.
I find this whole argument rather superficial and immature.

If women themselves start treating housework or anything domestic "lower" as well as declaring "masculine" work "honourable", something to be looked up to, then the stigma attached to housework will never be eliminated.
All women should be self sufficient, and therefore they should be trained to work. This gives them security, and also self-worth. If a woman is working leading her own fulfilling life, and so is the man that she lives with, yet when they get home she is the only one cleaning the house, rearing the children and cooking the meals while he sits around and does absolutely nothing, this is against the feminist movement. Everybody who lives in a household and has an able body should share in the work of keeping it clean. I think you are missing the point here. We should not force our values and choices on others, assuming that is the best for them. What if a woman does not want to work outside? What if her fulfilment comes with being at home, bringing up her children and providing a safe atmosphere for them? Can a couple not have an understanding to share the responsibility of their family by one working outside while the other one stayed at home? And this can be a man opting to stay at home as well while the woman goes out to work. It is about their choices and their mutual understanding.

Personally, I believe a big part of the Feminist Movement was being able to choose whether a woman wants to go out and get a job, or stay at home. ... I believe a true feminist is a woman who takes control of her life, despite the stigmas society has put on her, and does not have to justify why she is doing what she is doing.I very much agree with your statements here, Mike.

It is about choice and it is about being control.
I'm doing these things also, and I don't mind it, because I prefer self-cooked meals to fast food, and a clean house to a dirty one. I do those things for my own comfort, and not because I'm told to.Exactly. Whether you live with someone else or not, we would still do these things because that is the way we choose to live.
Your "voluntarily submitting" to an obsolete role model, how is the feminist movement supposed to liberate women if women are contented in their position. -- That's not my opinion but my guess! I understand what you are saying, Lulim :)

I think the problem with this kind of attitude is that women are not given the opportunity to make their own decisions but told what's good for them. If feminism means that I have to give up things I enjoy doing or find necessary for a good life, then I don't want to be one.

It is still strange. I mean, you aren't doing housework exclusively. You are working too.I think this is another negative assumption about women: if a woman shows domestic tendencies, she could not work or be capable of coping with the life outside the house. What I am finding -much to my amazement and chagrin- is that this is the kind of negative attitude displayed mostly by those who claim to be feminists.

motherhubbard

07-15-2010, 05:14 PM

I'll add some of my thoughts to this, as it has been on my mind a lot. As you may know, I've been a stay home mom for nearly 16 years. I always smell like I've been bleaching things and chopping onions. My house is a reflection of how well I see after my family. The keeping of the house is my responsibility. I take pride in keeping house, ironing, cooking meals and the like. I do not expect my husband to do any housework. He works and supports us- that's his job. I keep the house – that's my job.

For me, keeping a clean house is just one way I take care of my family. I believe that ultimately it is my responsibility as a woman. My husband would help, but I don't want him to. If he were to take doing the laundry as his regular responsibility I would feel incompetent.

I know women who do not keep their homes clean. They sit and leave the mess, sometimes bad messes. It doesn't bother them to live in a mess. I would have a hard time with that.

During student teaching I found that even though I had full time work hours and an average of 2-3 hours of homework daily my house was in the best shape ever. I was always on top of everything and it seemed so much easier. Planning meals was more challenging and took a lot of getting used to. I'm going to start teaching next month. I'll be making more money than my husband. I hope to start on my masters in the spring. How will this effect the balance of household responsibilities? Is it still ALL mine? Will it be easier since there are not children in the house to clean up after all day? Will I become an angry mother who gripes at the kids who can NEVER put a dish in the dishwasher? I worry a little. I have found myself feeling a little frustrated during that hour when I clean up after dinner, put things away, work on laundry, help kids with homework, and do the bath/bed thing while my husband watches the TV. I wonder how things will change and how I will think about these things next year?

JuniperWoolf

07-15-2010, 05:25 PM

I find this whole argument rather superficial and immature.

If women themselves start treating housework or anything domestic "lower" as well as declaring "masculine" work "honourable", something to be looked up to, then the stigma attached to housework will never be eliminated.

You didn't really grasp my point. Of course the view that housework is lowly peasant's work is immature, that was basically my point. That's the way the world thinks, and it sucks.

You can't deny that before the women's rights movement, women were treated like employees by their husbands. If you pick up any book on women's history, you'll see that we weren't allowed to do anything outside of the home. Women were shoved into domestic duties and ignored, they weren't even allowed to attend university until the eighteenth century. The view of housework as slave-work goes waaaaaay back. You don't think that a reaction against this long-standing mindset is justified?

You seem to believe that it is the fault of women that housework is viewed derisively. This is not so. It is because for the last few thousand years, all we were allowed to do was frickin' housework while the big boys went to school and became writers, doctors, philosophers, politicians.

We should not force our values and choices on others, assuming that is the best for them. What if a woman does not want to work outside? What if her fulfilment comes with being at home, bringing up her children and providing a safe atmosphere for them? Can a couple not have an understanding to share the responsibility of their family by one working outside while the other one stayed at home?

This is a common argument. "Well, what if women just like housework, and they find existential meaning in picking up their husband's dirty socks?" I have strong doubts. Go around a school classroom and ask little girls what they want to be when they grow up. You'll hear firefighter, psychologist, doctor, vet, but you won't find many who say "housewife." Cleaning and child-rearing might just be the ticket for a few women (men, too), but I don't see how that number could be very high.

I'll tell you how I arrived at that conclusion: I learned in psychology that the suicide rate among housewives in the post WWII era almost leaped off the board. The reason? When the men went off to war, these women took over the country. They learned how to run factories, they could build airplanes and earn their own paycheque. When the war ended, the men got their jobs back and the women were forced (yes, forced) back to their kitchens. How riveting, scrubbing melted cheese off of a casserole dish after you've been trained as an engineer. Housework is fulfilling? Yeah, sure it is. If that's anyone's personal choice, to place all of their faith into the fact that a man is going to constantly provide a source of income (and not, oh say, screw the babysitter or just take off as very frequently happens), and she really doesn't want anything more from her life than to clean the same bloody house every day of her life, than power to her. But if this is the case, than why is the rate of suicide among housewives so high? Why are women depressed so much more often than men? Why are so many housewives on medication? I don't accept indevidual report when it comes to quality of life, because it's all controdictory; statistics in this case are at least accurate.

I don't mean to be condescending, I'm just trying to be honest.

And this can be a man opting to stay at home as well while the woman goes out to work. It is about their choices and their mutual understanding...

That I'd be cool with. Doesn't happen very often though, does it? Now, why do you think that is?

*edit* I'll re-iterate, there is nothing wrong with keeping a clean house. In order to maintain a healthy lifestyle, it is important to live somewhere that isn't going to make you sick. But what's wrong with sharing some of the responsibility? It would seem that women now are forced to keep their houses clean, AND have a career. It's too much. I could not, not, NOT be spiritually fulfilled with housework and child-rearing alone, that's who I am. If you disagree, than go clean and raise children, I don't care. I'm just saying, for the women who are like me and do not want to be a housekeeper and that's it, no other outside interests (and I would say that most women today are like me in this respect), why shouldn't the man do the frickin' dishes once in a while so you can get some writing done or go to work without being exhausted?

*second edit* (sorry, I'm just re-reading my post and making sure that I'm being clear) When I say that I don't accept individual report when it comes to quality of life, I mean that often people say one thing and feel another. It is socially accepted for a housewife to say that she is fulfilled, in saying so she gains the approval of her husband and community, and she may view it as betrayal against her family to complain or admit to being unsatisfied. You can see the reasons why self-report can't be relied upon to be valid, so we must look to another source if we want an accurate representation of the average housewives’ quality of life. Another measurement of quality of life is statistics, which never lie to serve their own purposes because they don't have an agenda. Statistically, women are much more depressed than men, and housewives are more depressed than women who have a life outside of the home (the evidence being gathered by what percentage of people are on antidepressants). Married women have a higher suicide rate than unmarried women. Here's one source for the stats, if you want more look them up yourself, the evidence is staggering.

http://depression.emedtv.com/depression/depression-in-women.html

OrphanPip

07-15-2010, 06:45 PM

More often than not, these days a woman is expected to work, at lower wages than men, and come home to still do the housework.

Although, I think there's a difference between a wife who stays at home and does all the cleaning and cooking, and a woman who has chosen to stay at home for her kids. Many women seem to think themselves more appropriate caregivers to children. It's more understandable that a woman would want to stay at home and give more attention to their kids. I'm not sure any woman really enjoys doing all the cleaning and cooking.

papayahed

07-15-2010, 08:38 PM

soundofmusic

07-15-2010, 09:12 PM

I am often criticized by my male pals for being too independent...a womens liber. Personally, I greatly admire women who keep a wonderful house, cook and for people like you, Scher, also manage to hold down a job.

The difficulty is, that your friends men are saying to their wives, "Look at that Scher, always looks great, has a great looking house...yada, yada...

Yes, your friends could just hit their husband over the head when he turns over without kissing them goodnight, a big smile on his face thinking of how he is going to get a home cooked meal tomorrow; but it is easier to resent you...

By the way, when we learn to change the oil or mow the yard, no one pats us on the back, the neighborhood guys just point out those "little blades of grass we missed"

JuniperWoolf

07-15-2010, 09:14 PM

motherhubbard

07-15-2010, 11:51 PM

Ya know what bugs me? That women will put each other down at the drop of a hat, it's the little comments that always bug me. Things like "Oh, I'm not one of those girly girls", like being a girl girl is a bad thing, or the reverse "she likes sports, she must be a little funny". Why do we do that to each other?

Here's one I hate- Well, bless her heart.

When my kids were babies some of my husband's family would say that about me. "Well bless her heart, she's just not a house keeper." Of course, they would often show up at 8 am after the baby had puked in the bed twice or some kind of crazy night.

I'm big on keeping my house clean, but not to the point that I neglect my children. There's a difference in having toys in the floor or a load of laundry that needs to be folded and filth. Maybe that's why I have such a problem letting my husband unload the dishwasher.

This is a common argument. "Well, what if women just like housework, and they find existential meaning in picking up their husband's dirty socks?" I have strong doubts. Go around a school classroom and ask little girls what they want to be when they grow up. You'll hear firefighter, psychologist, doctor, vet, but you won't find many who say "housewife." Cleaning and child-rearing might just be the ticket for a few women (men, too), but I don't see how that number could be very high.

I'll tell you how I arrived at that conclusion: I learned in psychology that the suicide rate among housewives in the post WWII era almost leaped off the board. The reason? When the men went off to war, these women took over the country. They learned how to run factories, they could build airplanes and earn their own paycheque. When the war ended, the men got their jobs back and the women were forced (yes, forced) back to their kitchens. How riveting, scrubbing melted cheese off of a casserole dish after you've been trained as an engineer. Housework is fulfilling? Yeah, sure it is. If that's anyone's personal choice, to place all of their faith into the fact that a man is going to constantly provide a source of income (and not, oh say, screw the babysitter or just take off as very frequently happens), and she really doesn't want anything more from her life than to clean the same bloody house every day of her life, than power to her. But if this is the case, than why is the rate of suicide among housewives so high? Why are women depressed so much more often than men? Why are so many housewives on medication? I don't accept indevidual report when it comes to quality of life, because it's all controdictory; statistics in this case are at least accurate.

All I've ever really wanted to be is a housewife. I've kept teacher in the back of my mind because it gives me the same hours as my children and works well with my desire to be housewife. I'm not saying I would enjoy digging my husband's socks from out of the couch cushions:nono:, but since he's good to put them in the hamper I don't mind washing them.

I doubt that build airplanes is any more fulfilling that scrubbing cheese, although I'm sure the pay is nicer. I think that perhaps these women found a strength to manage everything that they didn't know they had. They no longer HAD to depend on a man for their total support. Maybe many felt that their only option for economic security was to marry. How many working women are also on medication? Does a woman's quality of life improve if she's working? What if that job is menial?

I have a problem with the picture you painted of the housewife and working husband. There are husbands who love supporting their families and do not fool around. Men who will fool around will regardless of their wife's employment status. You make it sound like men will not view a wife that stays home as someone to be treated with respect, and possibly like women who stay home do not respect themselves.

Maybe I would not feel so happy or satisfied with being a housewife if I had not chosen it. It has it's down side, but what career choice doesn't.

Having been a housewife for so long, I've always flet sorry for the added pressures working women have. As a women entering the workforce, I still fill sorry for the added pressures. However, I am really looking forward to getting paid (:blush: only another 64 days)

*edit* I'll re-iterate, there is nothing wrong with keeping a clean house. In order to maintain a healthy lifestyle, it is important to live somewhere that isn't going to make you sick. But what's wrong with sharing some of the responsibility? It would seem that women now are forced to keep their houses clean, AND have a career. It's too much. I could not, not, NOT be spiritually fulfilled with housework and child-rearing alone, that's who I am. If you disagree, than go clean and raise children, I don't care. I'm just saying, for the women who are like me and do not want to be a housekeeper and that's it, no other outside interests (and I would say that most women today are like me in this respect), why shouldn't the man do the frickin' dishes once in a while so you can get some writing done or go to work without being exhausted?

I think what you say here kind of shows how the pendulum has swung the other way. Then women were expected to stay home, now women are expected to go to work. We are still faced with limited options.

*I'm glad that you find your work spiritually fulfilling. I just want to point out that most stay home mothers have outside interest, too.

*second edit* (sorry, I'm just re-reading my post and making sure that I'm being clear) When I say that I don't accept individual report when it comes to quality of life, I mean that often people say one thing and feel another. It is socially accepted for a housewife to say that she is fulfilled, in saying so she gains the approval of her husband and community, and she may view it as betrayal against her family to complain or admit to being unsatisfied. You can see the reasons why self-report can't be relied upon to be valid, so we must look to another source if we want an accurate representation of the average housewives’ quality of life.

I think you make a really good point here. Most housewives do not talk about their bad days. There is a lot of self sacrifice, but working mothers sacrafice, too. Personally, there are things about my life that will improve when I go to work, and there are things that will suffer. I was on antidepressants more before I got married. Makes me wonder if depressed women are more likely to become housewives.

JuniperWoolf

07-16-2010, 02:24 AM

How many working women are also on medication? Does a woman's quality of life improve if she's working? What if that job is menial?

Statistically speaking, working women are not as depressed as those who classify themselves as "housewives." A woman's quality of life is assumed to improve, because the number of working women on antidepressants and SSRIs is significantly lower. All of the truth that you can find in this situation is in the numbers, because like I said, self-report is inherently flawed in this case; there are a number of reasons that people are dishonest, consciously or unconsciously.

As a person asking questions and trying to learn about the world, all I can do is base my decisions on what I judge to be the best indicator of the truth. If you really are satisfied with being a housewife, then what I've learned would suggest that you in the vast minority. And really, I swear I can’t see the fun in being a homemaker. I just don’t get it. Picking up after people all day just doesn’t seem like it could possibly be a good time, and the number of people who find satisfaction in this can’t be that high. The numbers support me, so I'm going to stick with this line of reasoning until I hear a better argument.

Also, (and it doesn’t really matter to me if it’s offensive to some people, or if it’s not very politically correct) I still believe that all women should find some way to earn their own income for their own safety and well being plus that of their children, because really you never know if and/or when you're going to be out on your *** alone.

Makes me wonder if depressed women are more likely to become housewives.

That's a good train of thought.

Revolte

07-16-2010, 05:01 AM

papayahed

07-16-2010, 07:48 AM

As a person asking questions and trying to learn about the world, all I can do is base my decisions on what I judge to be the best indicator of the truth. If you really are satisfied with being a housewife, then what I've learned would suggest that you in the vast minority. And really, I swear I can’t see the fun in being a homemaker. I just don’t get it. Picking up after people all day just doesn’t seem like it could possibly be a good time, and the number of people who find satisfaction in this can’t be that high. The numbers support me, so I'm going to stick with this line of reasoning until I hear a better argument.

I think you kinda just proved Scher's point. No doubt there are some women (although in this day and age I don't see it all that often) that are stuck being housewives but it's a fact that there are some women who have chosen to be houswives. There's no reason to scoff or suggest they aren't happy because you don't see how it can be fulfilling.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, women should have something of their own, something to fall back to if they find themselves in bad situations. But I think we should support each other no matter what choices we make for ourselves.

motherhubbard

07-16-2010, 09:44 AM

And really, I swear I can’t see the fun in being a homemaker. I just don’t get it. Picking up after people all day just doesn’t seem like it could possibly be a good time,

I can understand. If you picture the day of a housewife as all dirty socks and toilet scrubbing. Most days, anymore, I have my chores done by 10 am. That gives me the rest of the day to just enjoy myself. I read, sew, garden, lit net :blush:, vounteer, visit with my friends. There have been several projects that have delighted me.

When the kids were smaller it was a lot more work. Of course, there were times that I worked. Sometimes I took the kids with me and worked for my husband's family's small business, sometimes I kept other kids, sometimes I worked at my own commercial farm when my husband was home from his job, and for a few months I left the children in day care. For me, none of this was as joyful as just staying home even though I did enjoy the work.

Now that the kids are bigger it's wonderful! They clean their own rooms, pick up their own messes, the bigger kids wash their own laundry, the smaller kids put their laundry away. I have so much time to pursue my own interests.

When I hear women say how they just couldn't sit at home all day I marvel. There is no end to the things I can enjoy at home.

I still believe that all women should find some way to earn their own income for their own safety and well being plus that of their children, because really you never know if and/or when you're going to be out on your *** alone.

I agree with this. When I think about my own girls I want them to finish colleged before making any decisions about staying home. I worry that their husbands will not be as good as their father. While I've never had to worry about the security of my marriage, I have worried about how I would support my children should my husband die.

Scheherazade

07-16-2010, 07:19 PM

The view of housework as slave-work goes waaaaaay back. You don't think that a reaction against this long-standing mindset is justified? The justified reaction being that women refuse to do anything domestic or be condemn mostly by other women for not refusing? They should behave more like what is expected of men?

In a similar way, should all the oppressed groups try to get away from their traditional identities? Refuse to do all those things that were associated with them and start immitating their oppressors? Should we ask black men and women to reject their own cultural heritage and act/think like whites? Should also ask gay men (and women) stop being so "gay", refuse all those things that are associated with "being gay" and walk a little more macho?

Go around a school classroom and ask little girls what they want to be when they grow up. You'll hear firefighter, psychologist, doctor, vet, but you won't find many who say "housewife." Because keeping a clean house or doing other "domestic" things while having a job is not an "either/or" scenario. (Most) People those things even though they have a well-paying jobs. Engineer or not, one does need to do dishes after having a meal. Having an BSc or MA should not make one give up on simple daily tasks as they do not make us "superior" beings compared to those women who did not have the opportunity to go to university.

Regarding depression... With all the stigma attached to being "only a housewife", it would be a miracle for women not to get depressed, I guess :-/

I'm not sure any woman really enjoys doing all the cleaning and cooking.Cleaning in itself may not be an exhilarating task but the end result is. It is just like any other job or assignments one does at school/work.
I am often criticized by my male pals for being too independent...a womens liber. Personally, I greatly admire women who keep a wonderful house, cook and for people like you, Scher, also manage to hold down a job. I am not claiming that I am doing a good job at it all... However, I am ambitious in the sense that I would like to have a go at being good at it all. I want to raise a family, have a career and keep a nice house. Not because anyone demands it from me but because I feel I am capable (as are many women out there). Does it work all the time? No but for me it is "do or die trying".

And I am unable to understand why this is upsetting or offending other women who consider themselves "feminists".
however, as a feminist myself, I do love a girl who does things outside of the realm of whats "expected" of women.
I think it is important for women to be able to do whatever they choose to do; not because it is expected of them but because that is what they consider to be the best for them/their families.
You make it sound like men will not view a wife that stays home as someone to be treated with respect, and possibly like women who stay home do not respect themselves. ...
*I'm glad that you find your work spiritually fulfilling. I just want to point out that most stay home mothers have outside interest, too.

I can understand. If you picture the day of a housewife as all dirty socks and toilet scrubbing. Most days, anymore, I have my chores done by 10 am. That gives me the rest of the day to just enjoy myself. I read, sew, garden, lit net :blush:, vounteer, visit with my friends. There have been several projects that have delighted me.
Don't get me wrong, I agree, women should have something of their own, something to fall back to if they find themselves in bad situations. But I think we should support each other no matter what choices we make for ourselves. I think this is one of the main problems here. Women do not support each other and those women who choose to stay at home or take care of their families in the traditional sense (while still holding a job) are almost made to apologise and come up with explanations and excuses for their choices... Why is the blind belief that if one cooks, she cannot do Calculus or if one wears high heels, she cannot talk about football?

This brings me back to the original aim of this thread:

This thread did/does not aim to question why women do not stay at home or do more housework. It does not aim to encourage them to refuse to get education or work outside home.

What it clearly states in the OP is that those women who choose to be homemakers (with or without outside careers) should not be made feel bad about their choices, being bullied by those who appoint themselves the defender of all things "feminist".

I believe a "true feminist" should celebrate such empowerment of women.

The Comedian

07-16-2010, 08:28 PM

The Comedian> I hear what you are saying but... Come on! We know you want to comment!

No comment. . . . ;)

JuniperWoolf

07-16-2010, 09:28 PM

Don't get me wrong, I agree, women should have something of their own, something to fall back to if they find themselves in bad situations. But I think we should support each other no matter what choices we make for ourselves.

I thought that I was supporting women. I don't understand why anything that I've said could be interpreted as offensive to women.

The justified reaction being that women refuse to do anything domestic or be condemn mostly by other women for not refusing? They should behave more like what is expected of men?

That's not what I'm saying at all, that's a misinterpretation. I've said many times, domestic jobs are important. It's the fact that people define themselves by these domestic jobs that I have a problem with. See here, what I said before:

Statistically speaking, working women are not as depressed as those who classify themselves as "housewives."

People classify themselves as housewives. You're not someone who cleans a bloody kitchen, that's just something that you do. People need something more in their lives. If everybody else who lived in the house with you helped to keep it clean and take care of the kids that can't take care of themselves, then you'd have time to explore other aspects of your personality and resources that make you feel fulfilled. Doing housework "because that's what women do" is just a nauseating concept; what the hell is the difference between a man and a woman that makes doing housework our inherent meaning and anyone else helping with the housework is an affront to the woman, or a smudge on her partner's status? They're just chores for God's sake.

Also, this isn't about "being like men." I don't even know what that means, how are men supposed to "be?" Working with their hands? Tinkering with cars, is that what you think I'd like every woman to do? I don't even care much about getting paid (but like I said, learning a skill that you could live off of if you find yourself in need is vitally important; women need to go to learn a way to earn their own living, even if they don't do anything with it to rake in some dough, they've at least got that fallback). Everybody just needs to do something that fulfills their potential. Mine are being in the woods and studying, and I wouldn't be able to do those things if I were made to perform all of the classic female roles, have dinner on the table by five o'clock, take care of the kids, make their school lunches AND a healthy breakfast, keep the whole house clean, keep the baby entertained all day, do the shopping, and look fantastic all the while. It's soulless and horrifying, I've always viewed the whole lifestyle as a trap.

Plus now women are expected to have a job on top of that? Screw that, let's break that mould as quickly as possible.

I'm not arguing against doing the dishes after a meal, I'm arguing against doing EVERYTHING yourself because really that is what's expected from the modern woman (we could debate that point if you want to, though).

And I am unable to understand why this is upsetting or offending other women who consider themselves "feminists".

Nah, I’m not offended. It offends me when people say that cleaning and child-rearing is “women’s work” because I don’t want my life to be limited by my gender. I’m offended by men who say this, and they DO say it; I would never be involved with those kinds of men, but I will fight against them. The women who hear me arguing against that kind of man might feel offended, because it’s their very lifestyle that I appear to be against - however, it’s not them or their choices that I’m opposed to, it’s the pre-conceived idea that the only roles that a woman is qualified to fill is that of the mother and maid. I’m not trying to offend the homemaker, I’m trying to abash the men who think that that’s "just what women do."

I think it is important for women to be able to do whatever they choose to do; not because it is expected of them but because that is what they consider to be the best for them/their families."

This always bugged me, as a daughter rather than a potential mother. What’s best for me is if my mother is happy. Since the age of nine I could take care of myself, I don’t want the poor woman to think that she has to run herself ragged to be a good mom. I don't want anyone to have the idea that a mom should sacrifice herself for her kids, for the sake of my own mom.

SleepyWitch

07-17-2010, 05:42 AM

I don't see anything wrong with women (or men) doing housework if they want to have a neat house and nice food. As others have said, it's all about self-sufficiency.
But I also agree that housewives (including househusbands) should have some hobby or volunteer work or some qualification that they can fall back on.
Some housewives get so obsessed with their chores, it's neurotic.
E.g. my mum is a housewife. Although she does spend a lot of time pursuing her hobbies (gardening and reading) she also washes the dishes three times a day even when they don't need washing and she can never sit still and enjoy a meal. She's always dashing off to get things from the kitchen for people who are perfectly capable of getting those things themselves. She refuses to let anyone do anything, but then she complains about how lazy everyone is. E.g. she never let my brother or me do any housework and now she berates us because we are messy. Also, she'll snatch plates or cups away from people when she thinks the meal should be finished, without asking whether people want to sit around some more. It's like her household regime is more important to her than what people want. This is a bit of a paradox, because in theory she's doing the housework to look after the family and make everyone happy, but in reality she doesn't ask anyone what they want.

Another example is the mother of a friend of mine. She's the perfect housewife, always baking cakes or biscuits for the whole neighbourhood and her children's friends. But she forces all this stuff on people, whether they want it or not. Also, she's got this idea of harmonious family life, which means that she smothers everyone, any conflicts are swept under the carpet, and my friend (28 y/o) can't establish her own identity and has no idea about how relationships really work.

Anyway, I think housewives should have some job/volunteer work/ hobby or whatever on the side to provide some healthy variety. That doesn't mean that these other things are better, they're just different. Everyone needs a bit of variety so they don't get obsesses with only one kind of activity.

soundofmusic

07-17-2010, 05:40 PM

I was thinking, Scher, of when I first married and deeply loved my husband; there was nothing that made me happier than seeing a certain order in my home, a well kept lawn, trying new recipes...I even did some canning.
Very few of us find that in our life; or manage to keep it. Apparently you have something very special and those who have never had it cannot possibly understand...Remember that the Stepford wives were far inferior to someone like you who can take an active role in your husbands life

PS: Hey Sleepy Witch, how about giving that woman who likes to give away baked goods my name; I wonder if I could convince her to make a cheesecake from scratch...I have all these recipes..

JuniperWoolf

07-17-2010, 08:10 PM

I was thinking: there's no reason for women who fill "traditional" roles to feel bullied by feminist ideas, if anything it's the opposite. Whenever I turn on the TV, every commercial break I'm bombarded by women being "domestic." When was the last time you saw a cleaning commercial which features a man (one in which he is not portrayed as an incompetent dupe who is clearly out of his element will all of this womanly cleaning business)? The only theme that I see almost as often as those which tell women how they should behave in commercials are ads for makeup and diet food which tell women how they're supposed to look.

Edit: to clarify, it's obviously not the women that I feel bullied by, but the media (which, on a completely unrelated note, is largely made up of men).

Scheherazade

07-18-2010, 04:58 PM

I thought that I was supporting women. I don't understand why anything that I've said could be interpreted as offensive to women. This is why:
It's soulless and horrifying, I've always viewed the whole lifestyle as a trap.

I don't want anyone to have the idea that a mom should sacrifice herself for her kids, for the sake of my own mom.I don't like getting personal in discussions so please understand that I am not talking about your mother when I say this (even though it was you who brought her into this debate) but if a mother/woman is viewing any of the things we have been discussing in this thread as a "sacrifice", then I agree with you; probably she is better off not doing it at all as she is bound to resent and hold it against her family and children.
Some housewives get so obsessed with their chores, it's neurotic...

Anyway, I think housewives should have some job/volunteer work/ hobby or whatever on the side to provide some healthy variety. That doesn't mean that these other things are better, they're just different. Everyone needs a bit of variety so they don't get obsesses with only one kind of activity.Agreed.

As I have stated earlier, this thread does not aim to persuade women to stay at home, dedicating their all their time and energy to their house and family. As well as women developing obsessions with housework, there are women who obsess with their careers. We are capable beings; why should we not strive for achieving a balance including both domestic and outside activities (if that is what we want to do)? I hate to see that in the name of so-called feminism, we should avoid doing certain things because they are traditionally associated with women.

We do not behave like men or limit ourselves to be feminists.

Very few of us find that in our life; or manage to keep it. Apparently you have something very special and those who have never had it cannot possibly understand...Remember that the Stepford wives were far inferior to someone like you who can take an active role in your husbands life.Sound, nowhere in my posts have I stated that I am doing (or trying to do) what I am doing because of a husband or a man in my life.

When you were single, did you not try to run your house to do the best of your abilities and opportunities? Did you not cook for yourself or maybe a female flatmate?

Why is the assumption that there should be a man in our lives for us to feel "domestic" and enter the kitchen or fold some laundry?

I left my parents' house about 25 years ago. Ever since then, I have sometimes lived alone, sometimes shared a room/house with others (both male and female) and I cannot say their presence (nor their gender) has ever played the determining role in my attitude towards my house or housework.

SleepyWitch

07-19-2010, 03:33 AM

Agreed.

As I have stated earlier, this thread does not aim to persuade women to stay at home, dedicating their all their time and energy to their house and family. As well as women developing obsessions with housework, there are women who obsess with their careers.

I know, Scher. I was only giving these examples to put things into perspective for some of those who are against any kind of housework. I thought maybe their picture of a 'typical housewife' is actually that of an obsessed housewife and they need to differentiate more clearly.

Scheherazade

07-19-2010, 05:12 AM

I thought maybe their picture of a 'typical housewife' is actually that of an obsessed housewife and they need to differentiate more clearly.You are right, I think. The "obsessed housewife" is the typical image of a woman who prefers to stay at home.

Now, if you don't mind, I will go and colour-sort my twin sets and polish my pearls!

:smilewinkgrin:

manolia

07-19-2010, 07:26 AM

Is doing housework or keeping where one lives tidy and clean (or worrying about those things) against women's rights movement?

Of course not. What is against women's rights movement is the fact that some women work really hard outdoors and are expected to work equally as hard indoors without any real help from the significant other (and by help i do not mean lifting heavy objects and opening jars). I know such couples, but hopefully they belong to another generation. I believe that most young couples are able to reach an understanding.

Why does a man get a pat at the back when they fix a car, dig a hole or "accomplish" some other task that is considered "manly" while a woman gets frowns or sarcastic comments for doing something slightly "domestic"?

I honestly don't know why that is..
But i have other examples in mind.
A man getting a pat on the back when he does a bit of a household chore (that really makes me angry and it makes me think that some men are really spoilt by their moms/wives). I have a few examples in mind. A good friend of mine who is 34 and his mom still prepares his breakfast and sometimes serves him in bed!!
Ok i have a few more examples but that will do. But i must happily admit that most of my male friends are self sufficient (which is how it should be).

Why do even women feel proud to declare they can handle a drill or change the oil in their cars but refuse to learn how to cook a meal from scratch?

I sometimes ascribe that to inferiority complex (women trying really hard to behave like men so they could be accepted by them or prove themselves to be much better than men). And i believe this behaviour, or at least the examples i have in mind are young girls or girls who live with their parents (who refuse to learn how to cook because they don't have too). But i'd like to believe that most of the times it's not so (not a complex) and has more to do with how the said woman has grown up and/or the circumstaces in her life. For example my grandmother was a widow and she had to do a lot of "manly" chores in the house (and was really proud about that) and working long hours outdoors in order to raise her two kids.

EDIT this can also happen when a girl has a brother and the parents treat them differently..for example if the mother excpects from the young girl to help her with the house chores but doesn't do the same with the boy.

I am usually ok with other people's choices. So if a friend of mine would like to be a housewife i would not consider that odd or anything. But there are two exceptions that i find issues with and i tried to reason with them. First one, one of my friends who used to work as an engineer like me lately has decided to be a housewife..she was all about that being her choice and everything but after a long conversation i realised that she lacks confidence and she never had the desired support from her husband/family (she didn't admit any of these but knowing her as i do that was pretty obvious). I mean she didn't stay at home to raise her kids (since she doesn't have any) which is something many women do and i always find that very sweet..she just was afraid of working.

Second example is another acquaintance who decided to be a housewife because she could not stand the stress and the competition in our field of work..although i respect her choice i believe it was made for the wrong reasons. Now she has to go to the husband and ask for money whenever she wants to buy a book or a new dress, she always has to explain herself and she sometimes gets lectured to cut down on her expenses..

So in a nutshell, if it trully is the woman's choice it's ok..but sometimes it seems that way but it's not.
If i ever was to have kids i would have no problem quiting my job for a while to raise them till a certain age..but not permanently.

papayahed

07-19-2010, 07:43 AM

I sometimes ascribe that to inferiority complex (women trying really hard to behave like men so they could be accepted by them or prove themselves to be much better than men). And i believe this behaviour, or at least the examples i have in mind are young girls or girls who live with their parents (who refuse to learn how to cook because they don't have too). But i'd like to believe that most of the times it's not so (not a complex) and has more to do with how the said woman has grown up and/or the circumstaces in her life.

This. During college and when I first started out I remember very clearly trying to set myself apart from the other women at work and trying to be like the boys. To me it was either hang out with the women and talk about the soap operas and shopping or hang out with the boys and talk sports and well sports. Luckily I learned that it doesn't have to be either or, I fit better somewhere in the mddle.

Shalot

07-19-2010, 10:08 PM

Here's one I hate- Well, bless her heart.

When my kids were babies some of my husband's family would say that about me. "Well bless her heart, she's just not a house keeper." Of course, they would often show up at 8 am after the baby had puked in the bed twice or some kind of crazy night.

I LOATHE the phrase "Bless her heart" or anyone's heart for that matter. It's a backhanded southern "compliment" and if someone says it to me I tell them to go bless their own damn heart. Southerners know how to cut you down in the sweetest way.

Does a woman's quality of life improve if she's working? What if that job is menial?

It depends. Some people might go to menial jobs just to get out of the house. My grandmother and great grandmother both took crap jobs in a factory and in fast food just to not be in the house. And then when they got over it, they went back to housekeeping.

Me personlly - I love doing housework when I don't have time to do it. What I mean is that the mood to do some deep heavy housecleaning (the kind where you get down in every crevice) only strikes me when I have to be at the office (or oriface as I like to call it these days). Ay 6:30 on a Monday morning is when I decide that I would just love to clean out the refrigerator. Now, when I have to stay home, those towels can just sit there unfolded in that laundry basket and when I've used about half the towels in there for my baths, I might fold the rest of them up and put them in the closet where they belong. Such is life...

motherhubbard

07-19-2010, 10:14 PM

Well bless your heart, Shalot, you just go and let those towels sit, honey, even though you have the day off and aren't doing anything but sittin' in the tub. :rofl:

Shalot

07-19-2010, 10:22 PM

Well bless your heart, Shalot, you just go and let those towels sit, honey, even though you have the day off and aren't doing anything but sittin' in the tub. :rofl:

Well, since you clearly don't have anything else to do other than come to my house and critique my housekeeping, why don't you get off your fat *** and fold some towels for me? You're drinking my ice tea...you might as well fold my towels. I work full-time and I've been taking classes since I graduated from college...I think I've earned the right to keep my towels whereever I damn well please. But you go on and fold em up if you want to honey.

motherhubbard

07-20-2010, 12:56 PM

Well, since you clearly don't have anything else to do other than come to my house and critique my housekeeping, why don't you get off your fat *** and fold some towels for me? You're drinking my ice tea...you might as well fold my towels. I work full-time and I've been taking classes since I graduated from college...I think I've earned the right to keep my towels whereever I damn well please. But you go on and fold em up if you want to honey.

I'm going to memorize this and keep it on the tip of my toung for my next unexpected house guests!

Scheherazade

07-20-2010, 01:08 PM

I'm going to memorize this and keep it on the tip of my toung for my next unexpected house guests!How about printing it out on pastel coloured cards and handing them out to your guests when they arrive at your house?

:smilewinkgrin:

applepie

07-20-2010, 03:26 PM

For me, keeping a clean house is just one way I take care of my family. I believe that ultimately it is my responsibility as a woman. My husband would help, but I don't want him to. If he were to take doing the laundry as his regular responsibility I would feel incompetent.

I wonder how things will change and how I will think about these things next year?

You just described me, minus the laundry. That is the one chore my husband does do, and that only after I started working full time. I'm simply not home enough, when I'm not working from home or putting in overtime in the evenings, to keep up with it all :lol: It has been an adjustment, and I'll admit my house drives me crazy. I imagine they will do the same to you next year ;)

As for the discussion in general... I'm a feminists worst nightmare. I cook, clean, sew, can my own jellies, and still find time to do arts and crafts with the kids. My husband watches TV, occasionally works on the cars when I don't get tired of waiting and take it to the shop, and every once in a while fixes something in the house. If there is a light bulb out, I'm the one who changes it. The walls need fresh paint, that's me too. The carpet needs a shampoo, I'll take care of it. I don't think it is good or bad really that I do it all, but it is part of how I show my family I care. It isn't a "duty" it is just the way of my life.

Domesticity isn't a sign of women being subjugated, and statistics are finding that there are more and more stay at home dads. In these cases, they're the ones taking on the brunt of child care and household duties. Ideally when both spouses work it would be divided, but if it isn't then that is very often their choice.

JuniperWoolf

07-21-2010, 12:17 AM

I LOATHE the phrase "Bless her heart" or anyone's heart for that matter. It's a backhanded southern "compliment" and if someone says it to me I tell them to go bless their own damn heart. Southerners know how to cut you down in the sweetest way.

So the phrase "bless your heart" comes right before an insult? Like, you don't say "well bless your heart, giving the Red Cross a $20 donation," it's more like "well bless your heart, you don't know how to make a decent lasagna?"

motherhubbard

07-21-2010, 09:40 AM

So the phrase "bless your heart" comes right before an insult? Like, you don't say "well bless your heart, giving the Red Cross a $20 donation," it's more like "well bless your heart, you don't know how to make a decent lasagna?"

I can tell that you are not from the south. Bless your/her/his/and even its heart always precedes an insult. You have to slow it way down and smile like you're talking to a toddler.

Bless your heart, you do your best to understand true empathy, but you just aren't from around here. Politeness is so often lost on a yankee.

When I hear bless her heart I throw knives in my mind. I've never been able to respond with, Well bless your heart- you're just a big old B! I bet Shalot could pull it off, though. That's why she's my HERO

papayahed

07-21-2010, 12:56 PM

Bless your heart, you do your best to understand true empathy, but you just aren't from around here. Politeness is so often lost on a yankee.

HaHa, not to completely change the subject but just recently there was a newpaper article in town which kinda of raised my ire. The writer was talking about calling people sir and ma'am and he made mention of the uncouth, uncivilized northerners who do no such thing. so annoying...:icon_bs:

JBI

07-22-2010, 09:17 AM

The Comedian

07-22-2010, 10:15 AM

The whole notion of it being feminist is the fact that the trend seems to be women clean the house. When women were able to openly join the workforce in almost every field, this issue somehow didn't change, so now employed married women have a trend of the 9-5 work plus the housekeeping and babysitting.

As for me, I clean and cook for myself. When I have a girl over, I do all the cooking and cleaning - does wonders for my sex appeal, I'll tell you that.

The feminist question is - why don't men stay home? With birth rates low (slightly higher in the US than in Europe), fertility is not the major player anymore. The question of gender roles in distributing work in the house should not be significant - men can just as easily cook, clean, and take care of kids as women (besides birthing them of course). Truth be told, I am probably a better cook than most women my age - so why would they be the ones in the kitchen, assuming they are career oriented.

True. But some of the traditional roles are traditional for a reason. I just finished building a concrete block planter for my wife. I lugged 250 - 30lb concrete blocks, used a rock hammer and steel chisel to cut some of the blocks to size and hauled countless 100lb wheel-barrow loads of dirt.

Later, I've built a standing fence with 8-foot wood timbers, dug an uncountable number of 4-foot deep holes with a shovel, hauled 50lb bags of Quickcrete, hammered number upon number of six-inch steel carriage bolts in one hand while holding level the 8-foot timber in the other.

This work is damn hard. And my wife could probably do most of it, but some of it she couldn't -- and the stuff she could do, I could do with greater ease and, really, greater joy. Sometimes when I was doing this, she watched the kids -- which while sometimes a chore, mostly. . . .it's fun. I don't think she'd complain about who's doing what. . .nor would she yearn to lug the jagged concrete blocks out of the trailer so that she would break the fetters of traditional gender roles.

But on the whole, it's true that household work should be shared. But all jobs are just not the same and some of the traditional roles are fine if they are done in a spirit of cooperation and respect.

Oh. . . I also fix toilets, take out the garbage, cook a mean lentil soup, take kids to the dentist and put pretty pink ribbons in my hair when called upon to do so.

Scheherazade

07-22-2010, 07:22 PM

The real change aught not to come from women's liberation but rather a rethinking of masculinity. The whole rethinking has been in the pending for some time - simply put, women over the past century have evolved and changed, and redefined themselves, whereas men have roughly remained static.I think this is a good point... As well as women's views of themselves in relation to domesticity, men's perspective on the issue is very important.

Having said that, the original questions raised in this thread were not about who should do the housework or how much it should be shared but why some women could not bring themselves to do such tasks.
But on the whole, it's true that household work should be shared. But all jobs are just not the same and some of the traditional roles are fine if they are done in a spirit of cooperation and respect.I have been thinking about this issue for some time now and reading so many different perspectives is helping me have a clearer understanding of my own views as well.

For me, sharing responsibilities does not necessarily mean that everyone should have a go at everything. Like you suggest, some people are better equipped or more inclined to do certain things so it is OK if someone does not want to do the dishes or fold the laundry... They can contribute to the family life in other ways. It is pointless to refuse to do tasks simply because they are traditionally in men's or women's domain.
Oh. . . I also fix toilets, take out the garbage, cook a mean lentil soup, take kids to the dentist and put pretty pink ribbons in my hair when called upon to do so.(You just had to bring in lentil soup into this, dincha?)

Pink ribbons matching your pink apron, I presume?

:p

El Viejo

07-26-2010, 06:24 PM

On more than one occassion recently, I got involved in discussions on housework and feminism and would like to hear your thoughts.

Is doing housework or keeping where one lives tidy and clean (or worrying about those things) against women's rights movement?

No. The problem is seeing such work as 'women's work' and expecting a woman to do it because she is a woman.

Why does a man get a pat at the back when they fix a car, dig a hole or "accomplish" some other task that is considered "manly" while a woman gets frowns or sarcastic comments for doing something slightly "domestic"?

The largest, orneriest members of human groups have always tended to be men. These characters tend to take the desirable jobs. The less forceful get what's left. What's left tends to be the cleanup and maintenance work--vital but not fun or glorious.

"Men's' work" tends to have a clear beginning, middle, and end--something that can be 'accomplished.' "Women's work" tends to be necessary, distasteful, and endless--all that gets 'accomplished' is restoring things to approximately where they were yesterday or in the morning.

I think men denigrate those doing what they consider less important work to reinforce their perceived superiority. Women might do this to another woman as part of establishing and maintaining an heirarchy. It might also be an effort to strengthen their bond with 'their' male by showing him they see things his way.

I think 'atta boys' are usually dispensed to subordinates. This encourages a work ethic and reinforces the hierarchy. It can also be exchanged among peers to reinforce esprit-de-corps. Dispensing pats to a superior is just sucking up.

Why do even women feel proud to declare they can handle a drill or change the oil in their cars but refuse to learn how to cook a meal from scratch?

The women's movement failed in this area. They sought the right to do what men did, but failed to be as strong in demanding that men do what they did. In this way they inadvertently reinforced the idea that 'women's work' was inferior. They ended up seeking to have traditional men's roles rather than seeking equality of the sexes.

As for me, I clean and cook for myself. When I have a girl over, I do all the cooking and cleaning - does wonders for my sex appeal, I'll tell you that.

Huh. What do you do, and what happens, when you have a woman over? (Insert smiley emoticon here)

Jozanny

08-06-2010, 08:23 PM

My situation is near the inverse of what Sche is discussing, and I have been tormented since my teenage years for violating tidiness memes. Part of this is my own nature. I'm sloppy, and always cared more about being assertive as a male for the sake of a career, and could care less about a vacuumed carpet, a greasy pan, except that in the 90's it neared a breaking point. I could not struggle w/ 60 hr work weeks and clean. I had accidents and my living environment was chaos. Only after that broke me did I get help from the state, but attendants do not see themselves as janitors, and that, too, broke me. I am the rolling example of the *dirty cripple* stereotype and am freely stigmatized by the female building janitor, which only stopped when it nearly reached a legal battle.

Now I do not work, quit smoking, my incontinence lessened, and I pay an old man to keep me within acceptable parameters; for certain minority castes the issue runs deeper than how much subjugation is involved in pristine living units, but I'm still sloppy, even as I exhaust myself to circumvent institutionalization, which may come of its own accord.

I know I am not here anymore but I chimed in to relax a few minutes against my rat race with the poverty mortality rate.

BienvenuJDC

08-06-2010, 10:56 PM

I think that the performance of domestic duties is quite a noble thing. But it is quite often taken for granted......just like bringing home a paycheck week after week.

iamnobody

08-10-2010, 09:20 PM

Is doing housework againt the women's movement? I believe the original intent of the movement was to assure equal rights and personal freedom for all women. There may be those who think "A woman SHOULD be tending the home and SHOULD NOT work outside the home" This is contrary to personal freedom and therefore irrelevant. Now there are those who may say "A woman SHOULD NOT tend a home and SHOULD work outside th home" and this is contrary to personal freedom and is irrelevant. So, what IS relevant? The women's movement WORKED! You are free to do AS YOU WISH! Do not be misled by those who see women's liberation as merely trading one set of restrictions for another.

Scheherazade

09-14-2010, 09:44 AM

The OP:
Is doing housework or keeping where one lives tidy and clean (or worrying about those things) against women's rights movement?

Why does a man get a pat at the back when they fix a car, dig a hole or "accomplish" some other task that is considered "manly" while a woman gets frowns or sarcastic comments for doing something slightly "domestic"?

Why do even women feel proud to declare they can handle a drill or change the oil in their cars but refuse to learn how to cook a meal from scratch?
The women's movement WORKED! You are free to do AS YOU WISH! Do not be misled by those who see women's liberation as merely trading one set of restrictions for another.Hear, hear! :D

Propter W.

09-14-2010, 10:53 AM

The women's movement WORKED! You are free to do AS YOU WISH! Do not be misled by those who see women's liberation as merely trading one set of restrictions for another.

The work isn't over yet. There's still a big gender wage gap and the glass ceiling phenomenon.

The Comedian

09-14-2010, 01:46 PM

In what settings have you found the glass ceiling still prevalent? I work in a small, rural community college and our president in a woman, one of two VPs is a woman, we have more female professors than male, and more female deans than male. Our registrar is female too.

OrphanPip

09-14-2010, 05:39 PM

Scheherazade

09-14-2010, 05:50 PM

The Comedian

09-14-2010, 06:55 PM

I think that is mostly to do with the fact that education is very popular among women as a field.

If I knew how to quote multiple people, I'd do so here because Scher & Pip's combo offers an interesting question. Are there less women in corporate leadership positions because of a glass ceiling or because women tend not to gravitate to corporate environments -- that they prefer other working environments such as education?

OrphanPip

09-14-2010, 08:56 PM

If I knew how to quote multiple people, I'd do so here because Scher & Pip's combo offers an interesting question. Are there less women in corporate leadership positions because of a glass ceiling or because women tend not to gravitate to corporate environments -- that they prefer other working environments such as education?

I think it's a bit of both, others also argue that women are in general less ambitious and aggressive in the work environment than men. Part of the reason women make more money, it has been found in some studies, is that they are less likely than men to ask for more money during a job interview.

papayahed

09-14-2010, 09:13 PM

I think it's a bit of both, others also argue that women are in general less ambitious and aggressive in the work environment than men. Part of the reason women make more money, it has been found in some studies, is that they are less likely than men to ask for more money during a job interview.

I read an interesting book that talked about the different styles of men and women, some of it was crap and some of it was "OMG I do that!".

Scheherazade

09-25-2010, 07:10 PM

Now I am wondering if the male tutors at the College are paid more...

MystyrMystyry

12-19-2010, 06:16 PM

Because life's unjust - damned if you do, damned pass us the gravy...

To expect everyone to be on 'your' side all the time (in my case any of the time) is the path madness lies. We're all on a Highway to Hell in a Hackney Coach.

Sometimes the only thing you can do is the right thing, and not care if no-one understands, or even notices.

Conversely, I don't feel comfortable as a speaker, like if I say something and everyone agrees with me I tend to doubt whether I know what I'm talking about - I need discussion and debate before my restless braincell it doth pop

Besides, if people criticise you too often do you really care about it or them?

(this in response to the original post)

Also CEO's tend toward psychopathic dispositions which are more prevalent amongst males - this I've read often often to believe it, it may well be proven untrue

Delta40

12-19-2010, 06:53 PM

I think that is mostly to do with the fact that education is very popular among women as a field.

I think that makes sense since women are primed to take up nurturing positions - which are usually less well rewarded or paid. Care services rely on the goodness of volunteers who are primarily women to fill the shortfall.

Isn't part of the question: what is skill? who defines it?

Buh4Bee

10-17-2011, 07:52 PM

My friend who works full time and has two young children often complains about this. She has often questioned why her husband's praise gets sung every time he puts their daughters to bed. However, she does it every night. I know it happens, but as to why, there must several reasons. I want to know who is doing the praising.

As far as education goes; it is a notoriously female dominated field. Women raise families and this field offers many perks as well as a flexible schedule. I know a few women who do not like their job very much, but do it because they have to work. It stills allows them to be home with the kids after school, have insurance, and retirement.

TurquoiseSunset

10-18-2011, 04:44 AM

On more than one occassion recently, I got involved in discussions on housework and feminism and would like to hear your thoughts.

Is doing housework or keeping where one lives tidy and clean (or worrying about those things) against women's rights movement?

Why does a man get a pat at the back when they fix a car, dig a hole or "accomplish" some other task that is considered "manly" while a woman gets frowns or sarcastic comments for doing something slightly "domestic"?

Why do even women feel proud to declare they can handle a drill or change the oil in their cars but refuse to learn how to cook a meal from scratch?
What do you think?

I don't think any of that is against the women's rights movement. Having equal rights means that you have a choice to do what you want and what works for your family. It doesn't matter what that is.

I think men get praised for doing "manly" things because they are expected to do those tasks. Somewhere along the line though, women got confused about what feminism is actually about and started thinking housework is bad and demeaning and that's why women are scoffed at for being domestic sometimes.

It's a double edged sword anyway. Some people think less of you for not doing enough domestic tasks, others think less of you for the reverse. The same applies to being a stay-at-home parent or having a job/career. Some think less of stay-at-home parents and some housewives think less of women who drop their children off at daycare to go to work. You are never going to win with everyone so you should just do what works for you.

In my opinion all chores and responsibilities should be split equally and in such a way that neither one ends up resenting the other.

Vonny

10-22-2011, 09:35 PM

I don't think any of that is against the women's rights movement. Having equal rights means that you have a choice to do what you want and what works for your family. It doesn't matter what that is.

I think men get praised for doing "manly" things because they are expected to do those tasks. Somewhere along the line though, women got confused about what feminism is actually about and started thinking housework is bad and demeaning and that's why women are scoffed at for being domestic sometimes.

It's a double edged sword anyway. Some people think less of you for not doing enough domestic tasks, others think less of you for the reverse. The same applies to being a stay-at-home parent or having a job/career. Some think less of stay-at-home parents and some housewives think less of women who drop their children off at daycare to go to work. You are never going to win with everyone so you should just do what works for you.

In my opinion all chores and responsibilities should be split equally and in such a way that neither one ends up resenting the other.

I wish there was a "like button" for this. :thumbsup:

TurquoiseSunset

10-24-2011, 03:30 AM

I wish there was a "like button" for this. :thumbsup:

Thanks!

Babyguile

11-09-2011, 01:27 PM

I think the point is that men don't do njearly as much unpaid labour as women do. These manly taks...: changing the lightbulb, replacing a tire, doing some vital DIY. These tasks would crop up perhaps twice a week?

A woman's work is never done...

Women tend to use their spare time to work, they actively find things to do, while men devote their spare time to leisure. Unfortunately this admirable nature in women has led to abuse and exploitation.

I once got into a conversation with someone (over the internet - never again) about this very subject and whether housework should be exclusively a women's job. This person went on to declare that women have aways cooked and cleaned. That back in neanderthal times women used to clean the cave whilst the men hunted for the food.

I was lucky that I wasn't drinking anything at that monent otherwise I would have ended up with a wet monitor. The fact that women were essentially travelers, foraging for food and hunting small game and prividing 60% of the species' nutrition seemed to pass this person by.

But anyway, most housework women do is pointless. This is where we get back to the exploitation. There is no need to fear germs indiscriminantly. There is no need to buy a plethora of cleaning products for all kinds of surfaces and labour endlessly in the home. Wash clothes, hoover, tidy around, iron, sure, but do it as a team.