PDA

View Full Version : Why Evolution is True



Dodo25
07-11-2010, 10:06 AM
The claim 'evolution is wrong' has come up (again) in the religious texts section, and I would like to address and refute it here. There is another thread about evolution already, yet I prefer to open up a new one, because the old one (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44359&highlight=creationism), altough interesting, is dead for quite some time, and rather long, which usually dilutes the actual topic.

The intent of this first post is to establish that evolution is a scientific fact as well as a standart theory. The intent of this thread is to debate or extend the arguments I will put forward here. Discussions about specific aspects or examples from nature are of course welcome too. Anyone who can challenge or improve the arguments I'll put forwards is welcome to join in.

By the way, I'm not a scientist, in fact I haven't even started college yet (but I'm pretty sure I'll study evolutionary (or socio-) biology). My arguments should not be believed because of anyone's qualifications, they should be convincing because of their factual value. People are welcome to google the issues I raise or ask real biologists about it, especially if you mistrust my intellectual honesty or my ability to filter out wrong propaganda from accurate, or at least accredited information. I've done a vast amount of research on the subject (creationism and ID too), so I'm confident I can give an accurate representation of the science behind evolution. I know this post is very long, but I try to condense the relevant information, and make it a worthy read (also for non creationists).

First of all, we need to clear up the terminology. Then I'll briefly describe the current knowledge about how life is related, and then I'll come to the evidence for first an old earth and then for evolution.

Terminology
'Evolution' has several meanings, it's most common one is 'biological (/chemical) evolution', and unless stated otherwise, whenever I'll use the word 'evolution', it means biological evolution, which states:

Living organisms have descended through modification from earlier species (the technical definition is 'changes of allele frequencies over time in the gene pool'). Evolution happens to the greatest extent due to natural selection, genes (alleles) that are better at copying themselves than others (meaning, make the organism survive and reproduce better) will for these very reasons be favored by natural selection, the mechanism responsible for the apparent 'design' we find in nature.

Evolution makes NO claims about how life began in the first place. The scientific hypothesis (not a theory) that deals with this is called 'abiogenesis'. Evolution needs a replicating entity to get started. Presumably the first 'life' was a self-replicating macromolecule (or molecule cycle), and once there is replication with variation, the famous mechanism, natural selection, jumps in and we get, over a very very long amount of time, the complexity and 'design' we now find in nature.

Creationists like to point out 'evolution is JUST a theory'. They don't (or don't want to) understand the scientific terminology. Admittedly, it is a bit confusing. Stephen J. Gould has put it down succinctly in his essay 'Evolution as Fact and Theory':

"In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? […] Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

The scientific method goes from 'Observation' to 'Hypothesis' to 'Experiments' based on the hypotheses to 'Theory', which is a hypothesis that has succesfully predicted the outcome of numerous experiments and has never been falsified.

Scientists (or at least an overwhelming consensus, I've several times seen figures as high as 99.98%, definitely more historians deny the holocaust than biologists deny evolution) do regard it as a fact that organisms evolved. How they did it is explained by the theory of evolution. A theory can never become a fact, yet this doesn’t mean that natural selection is at all likely not to be the main mechanism behind it. Any current scientific theory, such as the theory of relativity or the germ theory of disease, has successfully predicted the outcomes of hundreds of experiments and has never been falsified by evidence. The modern synthesis ('Neo-Darwinism') is among the most rigorously tested theories; the likelihood that it has got the main mechanisms wrong is astronomically low.

Another prevalent misunderstanding is that humans somehow represent the 'top of an evolutionary ladder'. This is wrong, humans didn't evolve from apes (or monkeys, monkeys have tails, apes don't), they share a common ancestor. Evidence (universality of DNA) suggests that all life evolved from one single 'origin of life'. One can imagine it like a huge tree of life, the bottom of the tree represents the past, with the origin of life around 3.5 billion years ago, and at the top, all the millions of tiny twigs represent living species. The 'trunks' at the bottom also represent (in retrospect!) whole phyla, meaning i.e. animalia, fungi, bacteria (which encompass many different phyla actually). Then the tree branches further, some branches on the 'trunk' of the phylum animalia would i.e. be 'reptiles', and from the reptiles branch branched off the branches 'mammals' and 'birds', while the reptile branch continued to evolve, upwards, in time. Then at the most detailed level, the 'twigs', there are single species, i.e. among the family of the great apes, we have orang-utans, gorillas, chimpanzees (, bonobos) and humans.

Note however that at the trunk of the tree of life, what we now, with hindsight, call the lineage of a whole phylum, was only one 'normal' species that happened to be ancestral to a whole phylum.
The three also has many 'dead ends', for roughly 99% of all the species that have ever lived have gone extinct.

One more term that needs to be defined is species.
Species are not fixed Platonic ideas, the whole idea of evolution is that they change. The creationist term 'missing link' is thus misleading, because every species is changing, and there is no distant goal, a species exists because it is good at making a living. The biological distinction is as follows:
If two types of organisms are incapable of producing fertile offspring, then they belong into different species. The definition fades into fuzzyness when we talk about single celled organisms that reproduce asexually, in these cases, important characteristics are used, yet of course the distinction becomes fuzzy.

Now that we have the definitions, I will sketch some convincing (I hope so) lines of evidence.

EVIDENCE

The Age of the Earth
People who accept that the earth is very old can skip the next few paragraphs.

The earth is around 4.55 billion years old, this has been verified by methods of radiometric dating, several different isotopes (which decay in different ways even, beta or alpha particles and other types still) with different half-life times INDEPENDENTLY produced the same results over and over. The most famous dating technique is the C-14 (radiocarbon) method. Yet because this particular decay has a relatively short half-life time (around 6000 years), and because it is based on carbon, it is only used for relatively new, organic things (i.e. wood tools, coal paintings on rock walls etc.). Yet even this method establishes that the earth is older than Young Earth Creationists believe.

"120 million of us place the big bang 2,500 years after the Babylonians and Sumerians learned to brew beer."
- Sam Harris

It's a tragedy! And by 'us' he means the United States I think.

Dating rocks works similarly, you need volcanic rocks (sediments can only be dated relatively, if they're 'sandwiched' in between layers of volcanic rock), these rocks contain small bubbles of gas that was formed by radioactive decay. Then one can measure the ratio of 'parent' isotope and 'daugther gas', and because we know the half-life of these isotopes, we can calculate when the stone was formed (because this sets the daugther isotope at zero (lava)). For instance, in 'potassium-argon' dating, a specific isotope of potassium decays to argon at a half-life rate of 1.3 billion years. This method is used for the oldest rocks, because of its long half-life time. By comparing the ratio of the potassium isotope to argon (gas) in the rock, the age can be calculated. And again, the beauty of it is that many times the half-life of these atomic 'clocks' overlap, and different methods reach the SAME CONCLUSIONS!

Evolution
Now some lines of evidence for evolution. There are many, I'll just focus on my few favorites:

Many creationists think fossils are the only evidence for evolution, and for some reason, they also think that there are almost no crucial fossils. In fact, there are lots of fossils documenting all major evolutionary changes (amphibians - reptiles, reptiles - birds, reptiles - mammals, ape-like ancestor - humans and so on), creationists are lying when they say 'there are no missing links'. Yet even without a single fossil, we would know that evolution is true, because of evidence from other fields of biology (and geography, chemistry etc).

I'll just pick two examples for the fossil evidence, reptiles (more precise: dinosaur) - bird transition, and of course, the ape-like ancestor - human transition.

Reptiles - Birds
The more predictions a theory can make, the greater is it's scientific value. Evolution has made hundreds of predictions. One would be that birds must share ancestors with other lineages, i.e. they could be closely related to the mammals, or to reptiles. Before it was known that birds evolved from dinosaurs, it was already predicted that they must fit in somewhere. So we should be able to find fossils sharing similarities of both modern birds and dinosaurs, or modern birds and 'young' mammals (yet not both, they could only have come from one branch of the tree of life, two branches evolving to the same place independently would be a very uncanny coincidence!).

The most popular fossil for the dinosaur - bird transition is archaeopterix. Up to now, about 11 specimen have been found. There was a short period where some scientists thought archaeopterix has been severely misinterpreted, and this meme (of course) lives on in creationist circles, yet this was due to a lie by the not-even-biologist (but astronomer and creationist) Fred Hoyle. Anyway, archaeopterix had teeth, like dinosaurs, but also a primitive beak. It's ribs (chest bones) were partially waxen together, as it is in modern birds. It also had feathers and 'wings', the hind legs were a bit fatter than in most birds, yet they are bird-like. By the way, of course not all dinosaurs evolved into birds (imagine i.e. brontosaurus changing into a bird), only one species did (a small predator, like velociraptor but a bit smaller presumably). There are more such 'transition' fossil species than archaeopterix, but I won't go into details.

Early Hominid fossils:
The popular creationist response to such fossils is either 'these are just extinct apes' and 'these are humans, just a bit different (they then refer to some Bible passages that talk about some strange tribe or so, I can't recall the name, it's not important though because it's nonsense, as I shall show)'. creationists also claim that models of such hominids are misleading, because artists paint 'humanlike' facial features and add hair / no hair, even though one cannot reconstruct a face accurately from just skull bones. This claim is true to some extent, yet it really isn't about faces, it is about comparative anatomy based on bones!

When we compare modern humans to modern chimpanzees, the most striking differences are the front (chimps have none), the pelvis (human one is big and broad, chimp one long and slim), the teeth (chimps have canine teeths) and their arrangement (chimps have them U-formed, humans parabolic), cranial capacity and of course the backbone (and how it is connected to the skull, if it is right under the brain this indicates uprightness for walking).

The oldest known fossil (I'm using the singular here, but there are always several specimen that have been examined, in the case of this one, it's only about 2-3, most of the time it is many more though) on the human side of the chimpanzee-human split (after the common ancestor of BOTH split into two separate populations which then underwent evolution in different directions) is 'Ardipithecus ramidus'. It's about 4.5 million years old, could walk upright (yet not perfectly, probably only used it in certain situations), and it's skull, teeth and pelvis were all ape-like.

Then a newer species in between would be Australopithecus afarensis (i.e. 'Lucy'), which lived around 3.5 million years ago. It was a bit taller than Ardipithecus (yet still small compared to us), walked upright, yet it too had mostly ape-like features.

Then we reach the genus homo, with Homo habilis (around 2 million years ago). This is where the cranial capacity became significantly bigger (yet no front), no canine teeth anymore, yet still arranged in an apelike way. Homo habilis was the first animal to use tools (some modern chimps have learned this too actually).

Then comes Homo erectus (around 1 million years ago), it looked already very humanlike with cranial capacity even bigger than Homo habilis. The teeth were arranged humanlike, yet in certain specimen, there is a gap between side teeth and front teeth, this is an indicator that it descended from animals with canine teeth, which have this gap too (so it doesn't bite itself with the long teeth when it closes its mouth).

Another popular Hominid fossils is Homo neanderthalensis (neanderthal man). Recent genetic analysis (yeah, they could even isolate its DNA!) has however shown, that it was not our ancestor, more of a close relative. There is now an interesting debate going on about whether Homo sapiens has interbred with Homo neanderthalensis (which died out 40'000 years ago, most likely because 'we' killed it, as we have most likely killed all 'monster sized' birds and mammals except elephants, yet that's another subject). What I find fascinating is that there is evidence (bodies buried with flowers and other 'valuable' stuff) that Neanderthal man had religious beliefs. This fact has interesting theological implications if one holds any theological views at all.

Fossils of our species, Homo sapiens, appear from around 150'00 years onwards. We seem to have not changed significantly in anatomy. Yet around 40'000 years ago something special happened to the content in our brains, because then the first cave paintings appeared. Some anthropologists say it was the origin of language, others place this back further, even to homo erectus. Either way, it represented the 'Great Leap Forward', the discovery of culture. Maybe it was a new feature of language, such as the 'conjunctiv' for imagination..

Genome Comparison
One of the most convincing lines of evidence comes from molecular biology: There are certain viruses called 'endogeneous retroviruses (ERV)'. ERVs insert themselves into the genomes of infected organisms. If this happens in the germ line (sperms or egg cells), these viral DNA sequences (viral RNA changed into DNA) can get passed on to the offspring of the infected individual.

In the human genome, 8% of all genes are actually the remains of such viral invasions. We know this because they have very characteristic DNA 'markers' that normally belong to viruses, and we can even determine the 'species' of ERV (there are many different ones) these remains are from. Now how is this relevant in regard to evolution? Well, viral remains are found in all animals. And the great apes, especially our closest living relatives, the chimpanzees, share the VERY SAME types of ERV at the VERY SAME PLACES in the chromosomes! How did this huge coincidence happen if animals were created separately? Did through a cosmic accident the same virus type happen to insert itself at the same place, independently, in humans, chimps and gorillas?
The only explanation that makes sense is that humans and chimpanzees (and gorillas, and everything else once you keep comparing) share common ancestors (that already had the viral remains and then passed them on to the descendants).

The same tree of ancestry can be arrived at by comparison of DNA sequences. One just takes sequences that don't get expressed in the phenotype (because these sequences are under selection pressure and thus don't mutate at a constant rate) and compares them from species to species. For all kinds of different genes, the same tree of ancestry (a specific, nested hierarchy) is the result.

Traces of Evolutionary History
Because evolution works on 'preexisting' structures, it can't go back to an empty drawing board and 'intelligently design' things from scratch. This means that we should find 'imperfect' features in organisms that have been exapted to fit a new purpose (or remains that serve none at all). We do so indeed, some examples:

Whales (mammals who evolved from land mammals, actually, the whale's closest living relative is the hippo) have tiny bones where their back legs would be. In some cases, when a normally repressed gene, due to a mutation, expresses itself in the whale, the whale actually grows 'real' back legs with three distinct bones, exactly as i.e. hippos do (it doesn't have toes anymore, but the leg bones are still there, yet normally they're repressed into tiny bones).

Chickens sometimes grow teeth, a hint to their reptile past. Because of mutations, the teeth producing genes are split, broken or repressed, but sometimes it comes back in individuals.

Human embryos have a yolk sack. Why would they need it? It is a remain from when we were fish and amphibian-like. It develops backward in later embryo stages, but it can be found early. This led to the prediction that there should be broken genes for 'yolk' producing in the human genome. And indeed, three such (broken) genes have been identified!

In fact, the whole field of embryology is full of evidence for evolution, because embryo development in mammals goes through fish and amphibian stages first. Early on, mammal embryos actually have inchoate gills, and in some unfortuate individuals the genes aren't turned off and gill like structures (altough non-functioning of course, because so much is missing) do develop (and must be removed surgically, if the baby survives).

Another funny fact is that babies grow hair on their shoulders in the late stages of pregnancy. The hair goes away a couple of months after birth, it too is a remainder to our primate past.

All these things show how evolution can't go back to the drawing board. It needs to twiddle with preexisting structures, random mutations which sometimes happen to have a beneficial effect are favored by selection. This is the opposite from intelligent design, yet it works, and the 'designs' it has come up with are often brilliant and stupefying!

Mistakes in Design
Other times the designs work, yet they are very idiotic. These 'mistakes in design' are also evidence for evolution, similar to the remains of evolutionary history. Examples include the laryngeal nerve, which connects the larynx to the brain, yet not straightforwadly, because it first goes down the whole neck and around the blood vessels surrounding the heart (making a U-turn) and then going back up the neck to the brain. This becomes particularly funny when the animal we're talking about is a giraffe. It is like this by the way because fishes don't have necks, and in fishes, the nerve is just perfect like it is. Because a mutation that would unwrap the nerve from the heart blood vessels is so unlikely to happen and would most likely mess up so much structure that it would kill the organism, when the neck develop, the nerve just had to get along with it (literally).

Another example, ironic because it affects the 'crown of creation', is the mammal eye (which includes the human eye). The photons must first pass through a layer of nerve cells before they hit the active spots on the retina were they're transformed into signals leading to the brain. The nerve tissue is on the 'wrong' side of the retina, so it absorbs photons to some parts and thus impoverishes vision. This is also the reason why we have a 'blind spot' on the retina, where all the nerve 'wires' need to leave the eye. It could be otherwise, as is neatly illustrated by the eyes of squids (which evolved independently).

Geographical Distribution
...of Fossils
The older a fossil, the less complex it is. If animals were all created at the same instant, this would not be the case. A single rabbit fossil in the Cambrium would refute evolution. Yet of course, mammals only appear around 300-200 million years ago (first they look reptile-mammal like, the platypus actually still has some interesting features from that era). This distribution itself is strong evidence for evolution. Young Earth creationists have found some very disturbing arguments 'against' this, it involves density of animals, different layers of sediments that are formed at the same time, intelligence and run-away capacity of animals, and the 40 day Biblical flood..

...of Organisms
The classical example here are islands. The fauna and flora on islands is always closely related to the nearest mainland, even in cases where there are significant differences in climate. On many islands, whole groups of animals are simply 'missing', because no ancestor of such a group ever made its way to such an island. For instance, until human settlers brought them there, there were absolutely no mammals in Australia, and the marsupials filled the 'niches' mammals would normally fill in other parts of the world.
Furthermore, the geographical distribution of animals and fossils, and their relatedness, matches up perfectly with the theory of continental drift. If for instance we found different groups, families of organisms with similiarities, yet they naturally live on continents which are now far apart from each other, continental drift LATER (another prediction coming true) explained that these land masses were ones joined together.

JuniperWoolf
07-12-2010, 03:03 AM
Finally, a fresh and original subject of discussion.

OrphanPip
07-12-2010, 04:06 AM
Some people will never be convinced, it just makes me feel like hitting my head against a wall, because the fact of evolution seems so blatantly obvious to me.

Mostly, there's nothing I heavily disagree with here. Except mammals emerged around 120-70 mya not 300, which would be the first appearance of land animals, if my memory serves me right.

Also, I think a scientific theory is best described as a framework of tested hypotheses and predictions that explain a specific set of phenomena. Thus, theory is being used here in the sense of "a body of knowledge." This sense is often used in classroom settings where there is a theoretical aspect of a course and a practical aspect, the theoretical here referring to the knowledge required to be learned for a class. The constant confusion by layman of the meaning of the word theory is just a sad indication of the failure of our education system. So, the theory of evolution is the collection of hypotheses and predictions that explain the observed phenomena of evolution (change in allele frequency in populations over time).

Moreover, species concept is mostly an artificial construct that has stuck around from earlier days when we had a much less developed understanding of biology. It is best to think of evolution within clades, thinking only in lines of descent rather than groups of distinct species.

People should also consider the fact that a genera of bacteria like Chlostridium, gram-positive spore forming bacteria, are much more distantly related genetically to a gram-negative bacterium like E.coli than a human being is to a turnip. That means those bacteria have been around for a hell of a long time to get that different from each other.

Dodo25
07-12-2010, 07:28 AM
Mostly, there's nothing I heavily disagree with here. Except mammals emerged around 120-70 mya not 300, which would be the first appearance of land animals, if my memory serves me right.

There were already dinosaurs at 270 mya, so it can't be the appearance of land animals. It is of course a gradual transition and it's difficult to say when it began/ended.. I googled it and found 285 for first mammal-like organisms and 200 mya for first 'true' mammals. It's definitely closer to 200 mya than 300 mya.



Moreover, species concept is mostly an artificial construct that has stuck around from earlier days when we had a much less developed understanding of biology. It is best to think of evolution within clades, thinking only in lines of descent rather than groups of distinct species.

Interesting, I have heard the term 'cladist' a lot, especially in the context of heated arguments about classifications of fossils. The way you describe it, it actually makes a lot of sense. So with hindsight, it could then be possible that organisms of the same species belong to separate clades, if there is a speciation event about to happen.



People should also consider the fact that a genera of bacteria like Chlostridium, gram-positive spore forming bacteria, are much more distantly related genetically to a gram-negative bacterium like E.coli than a human being is to a turnip. That means those bacteria have been around for a hell of a long time to get that different from each other.

Very good point, I think it's fascinating and humbling how many phyla there are and how 'animalia' is only one of them.

k.brignell
12-14-2010, 05:59 AM
I really needed to read this so thank you ever so much for taking the time and energy to write it. I have recently abandoned the christian faith due to its seeming contradictions with basic truths and have been told that I haven't enough faith by some and that I shall burn in hell by others, and so it is refreshing to read an article that is not only intellectually satisfying but confirms and comforts the decision I have made. So again, Dodo25, my most sincere gratitude. Yours K.B

kiki1982
12-14-2010, 06:39 AM
I don't see why it should be discussed as it is a known fact anyway. And like OrphanPip said, some people will never be convinced. I find that just sad and it must be so scary, living in a world which you do not understand.

@ k.brignell:

While I have written as above, I do not see why anyone should abandon any faith whatsoever because it does not agree with evolution. I think in Europe there must be more people who are religious and know about evolution/consider it true nad the only truth. I for one. Ok, don't go to church, but still believe in God. I don't go to church because to me it is boring. From the moment I find an interesting priest who preaches interesting things and not mainstream, nice songs and not overly Christian people going to church, I might think about going again. Still, I do believe in God. Anyone who would dare to tell me that I was going to burn in hell or that my faith is no faith at all is, to me, not worthy of God (to use that age-old argument), who is infinitely intelligent and has created us in His own image. Why would you want to insult such a being by insulting your own intelligence, which ultimately comes from Him?
Don't want to sound too carried away, but I just find those arguments ignorant.
One can believe and go for evolution because one can choose how to interpret Genesis. There are Christian communities in universities for example the Catholic University of Leuven in Belgium, which are peopled with scientists. There has never been anyone who claimed evolution wasn't true, yet they do read Genesis. That's the beauty of it, you can bend it to your own purpose, like Creationists can. And that is at the same time the problem.
Who believes the Greek myth, who believes the Germanic, Chinese, any myth? Who takes Genesis literally?

MystyrMystyry
12-14-2010, 08:39 AM
Why take it without a sense of humour? The Ancient Greek and Norse myths were sidesplittingly hilarious. I'm not an authority on any others, but even the Bible is full of jokes and jokers. The scene where Lot's trying to strike a bargain with God to save Gommorah - it strikes me as a Woody Allen nebbish - anyway read it if you haven't yet.

Then there's the opposite arguments of the Intelligent Design quotient.
Why do we have two feet?
One for the accelerator and one one for the brake.

Why do we have two ears?
So our spectacles don't fall off.

I mean they've got be joking, right?

Right?

I was forced to Sunday School when I was a kid and found it the longest most boring hour of the week.

They told bible stories that were meant to impart some moral message, but these stories didn't relate to me at all. Just some random colection of dumbdowned nonsense that was supposed to be interesting, but just wasn't.

That's why I preferred school; I was learning stuff that MADE SENSE!

Anyway the church experience for me was horrible and when I was too old for SS I didn't go again. I now understand it in an historical perspective but give me science, art, literature, great music, philosophy, theatre, real history, well rounded people willing to try and learn new things - not that mindnumbing atempt at spirit stultification...

Alexander III
12-14-2010, 09:09 AM
I never understood why religion and evolution cannot coexists. Cannot god be the answer to why, and evolution to how?

kiki1982
12-14-2010, 10:36 AM
I totally agree with that! Why not?

MystyrMystyry
12-14-2010, 11:19 AM
I never understood why religion and evolution cannot coexists. Cannot god be the answer to why, and evolution to how?

Becuse it's not an answer, and to an enquiring expansive mind it will never be satisfactory.

First, if God created the universe and everything in it, did He create Himself?Is He His own father? If not, where did S/He come from? Another even Greater God? Then why don't we praise the Greater God over this lesser God?

But Hang on - where did the Greater God come from? A Meta-God? And where did the Meta-God come from? Surely not a Hyper-God?

See where this is going?

If you say Only One God, and He was always there, then perhaps the reverse is equally true. The Universe created itself, and also God.

Why did the Universe need to create Itself, and also a God?

No, I think you'll find that Mankind created God to answer the unexplained phenomena that was going all around him - and remember different cultures created different pantheoms of familial Gods that were as valid to them as monotheism is to us today. It's just been largely unchallenged for two thousand years (though I hear the Flying Spaghetti Monster is gaining a bit of street-cred lately)

Now, these days we are a lot cleverer than we were two thousand years ago. We have electron microscopes and know all about the DNA molecule and how it is able to reproduce itself. The less you know about it the more it seems like Whiteman Magic, but the more you study it the more it makes sense (like anything).

In fact it makes such ingenius sense that you could easily be led to believe that some Higher Power had a hand in it.

But stop and think. Wouldn't it be even more amazing if it did in fact happen entirely by accident? The right chemical soup and atmospherical conditions and by complete chance - life!

But not just life, reproducing life. from just one molecule that periodically creates an imperfect reproduction, that in turn periodically creates an imperfect reproduction,,, ,,,

And on till there are sufficient molecules in the pond to somehow realise the strength in numbers concept and form into the first fully functioning cell, a cell which itself is reproducing itself, and peridically creating imperfect reproductions, until there are lots of different sorts of cells which begin realising the strength in numbers concept.

Enough of these cells and you have a rudimentary plant, a rudimentary fungus, and a rudimentary animal.

The three types of life - all related to each other from the very first DNA molecule, and all by complete happy accident.

kiki1982
12-14-2010, 11:54 AM
Becuse it's not an answer, and to an enquiring expansive mind it will never be satisfactory.

First, if God created the universe and everything in it, did He create Himself?Is He His own father? If not, where did S/He come from? Another even Greater God? Then why don't we praise the Greater God over this lesser God?

But Hang on - where did the Greater God come from? A Meta-God? And where did the Meta-God come from? Surely not a Hyper-God?

See where this is going?

Sorry, don't see where it is going. God is not a being, so cannot have been created. He is. Or it is, really, because it has no gender either. But some call it Father.

Who was talking about lesser, meta- and hyper-Gods? There is only one. ANd before you argue that there used to be polytheism and there is still in pockets (not Hinduism, though), all those Gods came ultimately from the one, Mother Earth.

Before the universe existed, there was nothing. So where does the matter that is now in the universe come from?
At the same time, if God did not exist or was not, where did the matter in the universe come from? And why did the universe decide to create itself, if anything like that can decide at all?


Why did the Universe need to create Itself, and also a God?

That is exactly the question you proposed could not be answered by God, but which you do not answer yourself either. Apart from the fact that mankind created Him. However, that says nothing about the universe and the reason why that was created at all long before mankind actually made its entrance.


But stop and think. Wouldn't it be even more amazing if it did in fact happen entirely by accident? The right chemical soup and atmospherical conditions and by complete chance - life!

No Christian I know makes a problem about that.

And why would the right chemical soup come into existence? That is what Alexander III was referring to. Accident I find such an empty explanation. It only answers the question 'how', not 'why'?

For the record, I do believe evolution is a fact. But, the greatest question of all, namely why anything living at all came into existence, the very small cells that started to cling together to make the first organisms, that, in my opinion cannot be answered.

The rest is accident, yes, or survival of the fittest.

Still, it is probably a question that can never be answered as 'accident' is a very inadequate assessment of a human mind which cannot consider eternity, and as the real 'why' is probably of a much more eternal nature than a human mind can ever conceive, whether it is connected with a God or no.

Haunted
12-14-2010, 12:09 PM
I never understood why religion and evolution cannot coexists. Cannot god be the answer to why, and evolution to how?


I totally agree with that! Why not?


And I'm thinking, where does evolution come from?
Cells? Where did cells come from?
etc etc

DanielBenoit
12-14-2010, 12:11 PM
One time I was debating a creationist and he asked me that if evolution is true why hasn't a monkey given birth to a human yet?! Answer me that ehh?

MystyrMystyry
12-14-2010, 12:57 PM
Ah Kiki.

You make a statement a riddle, an observation a conundrum.

But I still like you, so if you'll permit me and my expansive enquiring braincell another sweeping statement that may or may not be true (depending upon how open your mind may be)

Are you familiar with a gentleman, one of your countrymen, Mr Albert Einstein? Well back in 1911 he hypothesised that E(energy) = M(mass) multplied by C(speed of light), squared.

Also, are you aware that the loss of energy when a nuclear bomb explodes is the weight of a dollar bill (though money has nothing to do with this) - about a gram. The rest of the energy dissipates but does not disappear.

Consider the Universe. Why is it expanding? Why is every large object from planet to star to galaxy to megagalaxy slowly moving away from everything else.

And moreso, how? If the Universe is a set (admittedly very large) size, but it is self-contained, where is it expanding to?

Which might beg also the question where is it expanding from?

Some very clever physicists who have very large brains indeed, have hypothesised that in the very beginning the Universe was a very small very hot ball of pure energy - the stuff that atoms and elecrtricity and and light and gamma radiation and x-rays and magnetism and everything without form compressed so tightly under the weight of itself that it couldn't move.

Energy doesn't naturally like to be compressed into this state and so a brief nanosecond after it found itself like this it exploded. The biggest explosion the universe had ever seen.

Except for the explosion that happened about a bazillion trillion (just pick a really big number) aeons before that produced the previous universe.

Yes! The previous universe.

See, what happens is every time the plasma ball explodes (big bang) it at first expands exponentially (really fast) and creates almost infinitillium simple hydrogen and helium atoms that scatter all over the place, some (megagazillions) of these atoms cluster together (a natural state of matter within a vaccuum) to form huge gas clouds then very dense gas clouds, then very large gas planets and then when the pressure is too great they self combust.

Have you ever noticed how hot the sun is even though it's millions of miles away, so far away that the sunrise you see in the morning has taken a whopping eight minutes to get here - and it's moving at the speed of light!

Well that's called atomic fusion. What happens is that every second inside the sun there are thousands of explosions the size nuclear bombs but self-fuelling. Because of the sun's enormous mass it takes weeks for the energy of every explosion to reach the surface.

Every day may be a new day but actually it's last month's news.

Anyway there is a side-product to all these hydrogen bomb explosions. They create different forms of matter. All elements heavier than hydrogen and helium were created in the suns.

You're thinking but if that's so, how did they get from there to Earth?

Earth - and all the planets - were created from the sun.

What! How! When! Why wasn't I told!

You see when we look up at the nightsky and it seems quite static apart from the twinkling stars it's still a pretty violent place. Stars and galaxies explode quite regularly but so far away we can rarely tell. They don't do it to prove anything to us, they do it because of astrophysics - you know, just because it's time to...

Anyway about four 1/2 billion years ago, another sun on a completely different trajectory to us (our galaxy is moving through space) passed by our sun and the gravitational pull of the two suns ripped a whole lot of stuff out of both of them and hurled it spinning around our sun.

Over time this dust and rock and metal and gas started clustering together and formed a few rock planets, a few gas giants (Jupiter is primarily hydrogen and helium, it's core is made of hydrogen compressed so much that is beyong liquid, but metallic hydrogen)



Isn't science amazing?

kiki1982
12-14-2010, 01:42 PM
Ah Kiki.

You make a statement a riddle, an observation a conundrum.

I do not do that. That is what it is in philosophic terms. It is not at all a conundrum or a riddle, it is only that if one is not willing to consider it that way.


But I still like you, so if you'll permit me and my expansive enquiring braincell another sweeping statement that may or may not be true (depending upon how open your mind may be)

Are you familiar with a gentleman, one of your countrymen, Mr Albert Einstein? Well back in 1911 he hypothesised that E(energy) = M(mass) multplied by C(speed of light), squared.

[and all the other scientific things you were so kind to provide us with; just for room's sake]

I know all that. That is not the answer to the question why though. It is a fact, yes. I don't dispute that, but the reason is another matter.


What! How! When! Why wasn't I told!

I was told, long ago, in my teens, *in my Catholic school*!

Still, it is no answer to the question why. And for that matter, one could go back the whole way, past all the former universes and at some point there would be a point where it stops. Or not?

Mind you, I am in no way saying that 'there is a God'. No-one can be sure about that, because we cannot see Him and will never be able to do that, but some people believe and some not.

I have always wondered why people absolutely want to convince the rest of their own opinion and why the other's opinion cannot be right either.

MystyrMystyry
12-14-2010, 03:13 PM
I'm with you Kiki.

You want to know where, why and how God was created?

Well You're in luck that MystyrMystyry the Poet had emerged.


God was created in the Human Heart.

A long time ago when there were many unexplained phenomena ruling our lives and fates, storms brought fear, chill winds passed through you like spirits of the dead. Earthquakes rocked the world. Volcanoes erupted without warning. Crops failed. hunting became scarce.

These though were extraneous phenomena. There was another far more powerful force in the Universe than these demonstrations of nature. It came from the essential need of humans for companionship. Since the dawn of time we have lived, loved and died.

And that's what God is.

A metaphor for LOVE.

So we stylise the process of companionship and relationship, we religionise to expediate the process of courtship and marriage, to give our loving blessing to the offspring of the lovers, so that we all grow old together.

To this is the guarantee that the youth will return the love and not kick us out of the tribe when we are too old to fend for ourselves - but not purely, in turn we derive enjoyment in our winter years of youth reminding us of our summers.

What sane person wants to grow old and die alone?

But Love exists - it may be a fiction or a friction for an unfortunate few but for those of in the Know we wouldn't haven't any other way.

You may anthropomorphise God, that's your prerogative. I'm not telling you not to enjoy the things you derive pleasure from - far from it.

I just didn't really understand what you meant. I thought you were referring to the crazy arbitrarily vengeful nutjob of the Old Testament.

But you meant the God of LOVE of the New Testament...

And I love you

Alexander III
12-14-2010, 07:36 PM
I think that to eaither strongly believe that there is a god, or that there is no god; is naive. Quite frankly there could be a god just as likley as there could be no god. And then the irony is that that god, if he does exists, will be so different to our notions of god that we would be unable of realizing that it was a god, god may seem more like no-god than our imaginations on the nature of god.

And I think we often forget the limitations of science. Science is a human product and thus its limitation is mankind, it can go only so far as man can take it. And if we consider how small and short lived we are compared to the universe and existence which is infinite and eternal, well then a prokaryotic cell is just as likely to understand Human society as we are to understand the true and essential nature of the universe, reality and god.


* My entire post is made with the sentiments that God and Religion are two separate entities which should not be confused.

k.brignell
12-15-2010, 04:35 AM
Sorry I didn't make myself clear, my recanting the christian faith does not mean that I have no belief in a god/ deity/ supernatural existence... It is just that the Genesis account of creation seems written to be taken seriously, not as a metaphor or as symbolism. It appears that the whole of the Bible, new and old testament, rests on a literal translation of the creation as told in the first book of the bible. Jesus often quoted from the old testament which would mean that he accepted its authority, thus we cannot dismiss the old testament and yet believe in the new testament. Accepting the christian faith and Jesus as the son of God surely means accepting the WHOLE bible as the divine inspired word of God? And as I read it the literal biblical account of Genesis does not allow for evolution? However, I am a lover of truth and open to listening and thinking seriously about anyone who feels /thinks that they know the truth...

Gladys
12-15-2010, 05:18 AM
It is just that the Genesis account of creation seems written to be taken seriously, not as a metaphor or as symbolism.

The Genesis account was certainly written to be taken seriously. But do you really imagine that either the writers of Genesis or its erudite readers, men deeply committed to serious enquiry a millennium before Christ, would yearn first and foremost for scientific edification?

kiki1982
12-15-2010, 05:55 AM
I think that to eaither strongly believe that there is a god, or that there is no god; is naive. Quite frankly there could be a god just as likley as there could be no god. And then the irony is that that god, if he does exists, will be so different to our notions of god that we would be unable of realizing that it was a god, god may seem more like no-god than our imaginations on the nature of god.

And I think we often forget the limitations of science. Science is a human product and thus its limitation is mankind, it can go only so far as man can take it. And if we consider how small and short lived we are compared to the universe and existence which is infinite and eternal, well then a prokaryotic cell is just as likely to understand Human society as we are to understand the true and essential nature of the universe, reality and god.


* My entire post is made with the sentiments that God and Religion are two separate entities which should not be confused.

I think that's a very intelligent statement.

I also think, extrapolating on that, that in order to at least make the impression to understand, people project their finite conception on It (let's call it It). As in the Jewish faith, the Islamic faith, the Christian, the Hindu... To list the most known and practiced.


Sorry I didn't make myself clear, my recanting the christian faith does not mean that I have no belief in a god/ deity/ supernatural existence... It is just that the Genesis account of creation seems written to be taken seriously, not as a metaphor or as symbolism. It appears that the whole of the Bible, new and old testament, rests on a literal translation of the creation as told in the first book of the bible. Jesus often quoted from the old testament which would mean that he accepted its authority, thus we cannot dismiss the old testament and yet believe in the new testament. Accepting the christian faith and Jesus as the son of God surely means accepting the WHOLE bible as the divine inspired word of God? And as I read it the literal biblical account of Genesis does not allow for evolution? However, I am a lover of truth and open to listening and thinking seriously about anyone who feels /thinks that they know the truth...

I tend to disagree. I find that, sorry for the expression, fundamentalist, wanting to believe that God created the universe in seven days, exactly, and that He created man the way it says in the story. Six days though to be precise and the seventh was for rest. I mean, a day can be taken in a number of different ways:

1. Literal day like we know it now, 24 hours long. As I said that's totally out of the question for a scientific person.
2. The length of a 'day', through the history of our earth, has fluctuated tremendously according to the speed our earth took to spin round its own axis. At any rate, what is a 'day' in terms of the universe? Which star and which planet will we take as a measure? Hold on, a day is only identified as the amount of time it takes a place on a planet to have first light and then go through the night to first light again (=24 hours for earth but other planets have different timing). That is of no concequence to other solar systems though. There are millions of them, which one defines the 'day' in the story of Creation? And was the initial day before the existence of light a day at all or not? And what with the time before the creation of the earth? Maybe earth wasn't the last to be created, but nor was it the first in all probability. No day without light, or a very long one indeed. Or is there a day in space at all, though, as the sun and other stars go through atomic fusion constantly. So are we then stuck in a permanent day, or a permanent night?
3. One can see the 'day' as a metaphorical time period of no real limited duration. Let's say, the phases of creation. And that does add up.

In any case, the seven days was probably introduced later, when the thing was written down. It is likely (to me) that there was a totally different amount of days in the very first Creation stories as people did not have an organised way of living. As symbolic rites took over, the last day of the week, the sabbath (talking Jewish here), was a day of rest and thus God rested on the seventh day.
God gave man the world to cultivate it or keep it thriving. If that is so, then, my scientific mind says that at the dawning of man (Neanderthals and his earlier versions, even homo erectus, why not even the very ape himself?), God left the world up to evolution to thrive and man to cultivate it. So yes, in my opinion Genesis definitely allows for evolution if one does not take the words in the story too literally and if one thinks a little further. There is, by the way, to my knowledge, never ever anyting that says that God thought that phase of His creation was perfect. Only that it was good. That can be at any stage, even the most primitive, can't it?

Then to Jesus. Naturally he quoted from the Old Testament as he was a Jew and had been raised a Jew, though he said he came to complete the Jewish religion (introducing the God of love instead the God of fear or whatever you can call it). Obviously not everyone believed that. I am with Saramago (cfr The Gospel according to Jesus Christ) in the fact that Jesus could be seen as sent by God, that is what we still believe, but that he was really a human being. A bit like sect leaders now, I imagine, whitout wanting to commit sacrilege. The New Testament is still a human production and was not, to my knowledge, dictated to the evangelists by God Himself. It was inspired by great faith in tumultuous times, but made a lot more magical or 'truer' than the original gospels were in medieval times. Arabic translations that were stuck in the Islamic world for a long time have shown that the original texts were much much more human on the Jesus front than the gospel we read now.
So I prefer to see the miracles (Lazarus, the blind, the lame, the lepres) as metaphors for being stuck in a faith which kills, blinds, mames, makes ill, not as literal miracles. The people featured probably existd, but Lazarus was probably seemingly dead (which an happen) and there will be explanations for the blind, lame etc. Though the same metaphores are still used in literature now for being reborn or reconsidering one's ways.

But I concede, there are a lot of people about who would prefer to believe the simple way and one should find the community that suits one, not suit one's faith to one's community.

This my conception of it though, not the truth, as that is something really absolute.

YesNo
12-15-2010, 09:22 AM
Evolution makes NO claims about how life began in the first place.


I agree with you about evolution and creationism. Evolution describes how some changes occur in the system and the creationists are wrong.

Creationists use Genesis as an axiom system rather than the collection of stories that it is.

So let's forget about the creationists. The question science needs to answer is how something new enters the system. That's why I quoted the sentence you posted above. To say this all happened "by accident" is fundamentally no different than to say "God did it". It basically says that we don't know yet.

OrphanPip
12-15-2010, 11:48 PM
So let's forget about the creationists. The question science needs to answer is how something new enters the system. That's why I quoted the sentence you posted above. To say this all happened "by accident" is fundamentally no different than to say "God did it". It basically says that we don't know yet.

Well scientist don't say that it happened by accident. However, there is something scientist won't do that creationist are quite happy to do, which is say with authority that we know what occurred. There are numerous reasonable hypotheses of abiogenesis, which we test as best as we can through the creation of experiments. We can never say with certain what the early Earth was like, but we can develop a reasonable idea that is based on evidence. We have evidence that suggest the early Earth was a reducing atmosphere, so complex molecules could have built up naturally. We have evidence that asteroids and comets contain many of the necessary building blocks for life, so they could have accumulated in the oceans of the early Earth. We know certain conditions could have acted as catalyst. We know from the Urey-Miller experiments that all the necessary amino acids can be generated spontaneously in reducing environments.

I favour explanations with some logical reasoning rather than just-so stories that have no evidential support at all.

MystyrMystyry
12-16-2010, 04:02 AM
Think about the DNA molecule (which reproduces itself imperfectly - there's a really good animated video of this somewhere but I don't have a link). It's reproducing itself not in a little pond but rather a large lake. Don't think about a few of them spontaneously forming a cell shortly after the first one appeared, think of the permutations millions, billions, even zillions of DNA molecules all reproducing themselves imperfectly floating around this lake unhindered not in danger of predators or anything.

To make imagining easier some are green with a red tip, some are blue with a yellow tip, some are black with a purple tip etc


Well it's out of these zillions that a few found themselves perfectly suited to form a cell - zillions I say.


It may have taken a year - a hundred years -to get that many, it may have taken a thousand years. A million years.

But the odds of a tiny few forming a cell (being attracted to each other and being able to function efficiently) aren't actually that remote considering how many there were all in essentially the same place with all the time in the world to get it together.

You just have to get used to thinking in big numbers.

MystyrMystyry
12-16-2010, 05:23 AM
Yeah, I know, double post, and you all think I love the sound of my own voice anyway:yesnod:

Well I just thought of a really good example of how our perceptions are skewed.

Think of The Beatles - you hear the name and you hear the tunes and see what they look like, and remember the songs, but it's all a sort of a general jumble.

Please Please Me mixes up with Hard Day's Night and I Am The Walrus and The Long And Winding Road - because there's so many memorable songs and you want to hear them all (if you're human)

Well, the thing is historically when they wrote She Loves You Yeah Yeah Yeah
they didn't know that in ten years time they would be writing Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band or Abbey Road or Magical Mystery Tour.

We think of them all as happening back then and clump them together as all good - which they were. But we largely neglect thinking of them individually in a cohesive time-line.

We grow up in villages, towns and cities that have already been built and have been in place for a long time before we were born, so we don't tend to think of what's wrong with them - just that they're home, therefore there's nothing wrong them.

We don't tend to wonder what the forest they chopped down to make room for the town might've been like, how many different sorts of trees and animals lived there, and quite possibly nowhere else (because it's not part of our experience so it may as well never have existed.

In fact we don't often think about what our Great Grandparents lives may've been like, let alone our Great Great Grandparents.

Everyone on this forum was born into a world that was already suffering from the strain of overpopulation, but we are all used to it. If the news came over that the last hippopotamus or giraffe has died because starving tribesman ate them for survival, should we really be surprised?

It's a possibility that that news will come over in our lifetimes...

Anyway you know that the Beatles broke up in 1970, so what? But if you were there at the time, you would probably be like WHAT! NO!

YesNo
12-16-2010, 06:32 AM
I favour explanations with some logical reasoning rather than just-so stories that have no evidential support at all.
I just wanted to say that I agree.

kiki1982
12-16-2010, 06:58 AM
I also.

MystyrMystyry
12-16-2010, 02:48 PM
A long time ago, insects evolved from trilobyte-like crustaceans. It's in the fossil record.

A suborder of these insects developed flight. Some became social bees, some became social wasps, some became butterflies, and others moths.

Being a bee or wasp is dangerous with birds of prey around as they can zero in on steady movement from miles away and swoop down for liunch. Some of these developed stripes which also indicated their poisonous nature - and they also became the dominant types, as the others were gobbled up. To a bird they probably taste awful anyway, but birds are immune to certain poisons that can kill other animals.

But butterflies developed a different system which was to flutter erraticly all over the place. For a straight aiming bird this is very frustrating and virtually impossible snack (unless they get very lucky - apparently butterflies are yummy).

Moths developed the ability to camouflage themselves by landing on similarly coloured and textured bark and rock, and fly semi-erraticly - but also at night
when most birds don't fly.

But unfortunatly for some there is a moth eating mammal that also flies at night and has developed semi-erratic flight and sonar detection and hunts in packs - bats!

The moths response was to to increase its egg laying capacity and ultimitely outnumber their daytime cousins by 99 - 1.

Incidentally, the reason moths fly into candles is because they have simple compound eyes that are really good at high contrast nightvision. The effect of a bright light source to one side of therir head makes the other side seem extremely black. They are actually trying to fly into the darkest area, but as they fly away from the flame the contrast diminishes, and no longer seems the darkest area, so they return to increase the contrast and unfortunately too often fly too close.

See, candles are a fairly recent development, and the poor moth hasn't had time to evolve a proper solution to them.

Sweeping changes in evolution take a really long long time. Minor changes happen all the time from mother to child, or egg, or joey.

Dodo25
12-21-2010, 12:54 AM
I forgot about this thread.


I really needed to read this so thank you ever so much for taking the time and energy to write it. I have recently abandoned the christian faith due to its seeming contradictions with basic truths and have been told that I haven't enough faith by some and that I shall burn in hell by others, and so it is refreshing to read an article that is not only intellectually satisfying but confirms and comforts the decision I have made. So again, Dodo25, my most sincere gratitude. Yours K.B

You're very welcome! 'Intellectually satisfying is exactly why I'm so fascinated by it.


I never understood why religion and evolution cannot coexists. Cannot god be the answer to why, and evolution to how?

There's a reason why creationists fight it so stubbornly. There's also a reason why among all scientists, biologists tend to be the most atheistic.

While it's of course possible (as demonstrated by scientists like Francis Collins or Kennet Miller), the two just don't work well together. Evolution shows an intellectually fulfilling world view where no creator is needed. The creator becomes obsolete, he has about as much reason being there as unicorns or leprechauns. Or actually even less if one considers the complexity argument (which has been alluded to with meta-God and hyper God and all these).

And you did well to not capitalize the word 'god' in your post. While I can understand deists, I don't really understand why people call themselves Christians if they accept evolution. I mean, a lot of these believers are so moderate they don't even believe that Jesus was divine, so why call yourself Christian? And if they do believe it, why completely ignore scripture one time, while blindly following it another time? It's either ignorance (lots of Christian have no clue what the Bible OR evolution is all about), or utter hypocrisy. That's how I see it, though I'm afraid this might be counter-productive to the aim of this thread..


I think that to eaither strongly believe that there is a god, or that there is no god; is naive. Quite frankly there could be a god just as likley as there could be no god.

So just because there are two alternatives means that odds are 1 in 2? By that logic, odds are that out of 'unicorns, leprechauns, spaghetti monster and Peter Pan', two of them exist. Clearly, something is missing, namely an estimate of probability. Things for which there is no evidence have an vanishingly small probability. Furthermore, complex things have a smaller probability than simpler things. God is both unfounded in evidence and complex (that because he's 'does' lots of things). So it doesn't really look good.



And I think we often forget the limitations of science. Science is a human product and thus its limitation is mankind, it can go only so far as man can take it. And if we consider how small and short lived we are compared to the universe and existence which is infinite and eternal, well then a prokaryotic cell is just as likely to understand Human society as we are to understand the true and essential nature of the universe, reality and god.


Seems rather pessimistic. I think Emily Dickinson was right about 'The Brain is Wider than the Sky'. Science is effective, and it has an impressive track record. Neither is the case about religion (nvm you're not advocating religion anyway, only 'god'). Our senses are limited because we evolved to reproduce and survive, not to ponder questions about the universe. Yet still, the logic and methology behind science enables us to learn from mistakes and confirm new knowledge through extensive testing. With technology, we can quantify reality instead of only being able to make quality guesses.


I tend to disagree. I find that, sorry for the expression, fundamentalist, wanting to believe that God created the universe in seven days, exactly, and that He created man the way it says in the story. Six days though to be precise and the seventh was for rest. I mean, a day can be taken in a number of different ways:

The day issue is not even half the problem. Yet even then, you're letting the moderates off the hook too easily. Days are days. Why suddenly interpret it another way? Why is the time period split anyway? There certainly wasn't one seventh of time without evolution after the appearance of man. Actually, our species exists for less than a hundred thousandth of time!

Furthermore, the order in which things appear in the Genesis account is seriously wrong. Not to mention that there are two contradicting versions of it in the Bible anyway. And since it's "and in his own image He created them.", are we to assume that god had ape ancestors as well?

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"

This means 'Be consistent and do not cherry-pick.'


So let's forget about the creationists. The question science needs to answer is how something new enters the system. That's why I quoted the sentence you posted above. To say this all happened "by accident" is fundamentally no different than to say "God did it". It basically says that we don't know yet.

As OrphanPip said, scientists don't assume it was by accident. Of course, at the ultimate level, it's either accident or directed, but they don't mean that whole cells or DNA jumped into existence in one step. It's thought to have started with smaller steps, where each step represented improvement over the previous one. And yeah, in the very beginning, somehow there must have formed a self-replicating molecule or molecule cycle. There are more than a hundred billion planets in this galaxy, and about a hundred billion galaxies in the universe. There's also plenty of time to work with. It doesn't seem too outlandish that some improbable configuration of atoms might stabilize itself if the sample in question is so very vast. Still, science admits it doesn't know, it only makes smart guesses.

And anyway, how is 'God just did it' gonna help here? At least admit it if you don't know the answer. And who just did God anyway? (Hmm that sounded wrong.)

MystyrMystyry
12-21-2010, 03:25 AM
Quite. Actually I envy non-biologists - they can just say 'God did it' and be satisfied.

I have to think how bees became social and developed the specialist heirarchy of Queen, drone, worker, some to feed honey to others who vibtate their wing muscles to bring the hive warmth up to 42 degrees.

How did they collectively decide on one Queen and one spare?

How did they arrive at the honeycomb shape? Did they try square and thought 'Not nice enough!'

How did they become exclusively pollen munchers and where did those satchels on their sides come from? Did they eat something else before?

Keep you awake at night, bees

YesNo
12-21-2010, 10:50 AM
I think the following YouTube video illustrates something that goes beyond the evolution/creationist debate. It is about orchids, as a group, tricking wasps into helping them get pollinated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h8I3cqpgnA

So, if you watched it, here are some questions:

1) How does the orchid know what the wasp looks like? It doesn't have any eyes.

2) Assuming it does have eyes or some other form of consciousness, how does the orchid know what will sexually interest the wasp? I've got eyes, and I wouldn't know what that is.

3) How did the orchids as group coordinate this magnificent scheme?

Edit:

Thanks to MystyrMystyry for mentioning "bees" which reminded me of this one.

Dodo25
12-21-2010, 10:56 AM
It's called co-evolution. The orchids don't 'know', the ones who, by accident, best fit the shape of insects manage to spread more of their pollen. And there's always a certain distance, or a ability of insect sight, that allows it to be fooled. It doesn't have to start from perfect mimicry!

Here some videos explaining the concept further:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW1rVGgFzWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHGIJIc1rag

YesNo
12-21-2010, 01:44 PM
Here some videos explaining the concept further:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW1rVGgFzWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHGIJIc1rag
I enjoyed the videos especially the second one about the cow that wanted to be eaten. :)

MystyrMystyry
12-22-2010, 05:42 AM
I was watching QI and they just said there were more molecules in a glass of water than grains of sand in the entire world.

Not DNA molecules, granted, but it gives you an idea of how many