Existence

[Adolescent09]

How do you personally define it? The webster dictionary and the dictionary search results on google appear to have definitions for existence, but how do you personally define it?

[The Atheist]

How do you personally define it? The webster dictionary and the dictionary search results on google appear to have definitions for existence, but how do you personally define it?

That which can be measured empirically.

[mrv]

That which can be measured empirically.

That's it? Wow! At least someone's got it figured.

[blazeofglory]

Empiric cannot always define existence and for our empiricism is too narrow to define existence. Of course an empirical way is one of the thousands methods or tools for understanding existence. We cannot ignore religious or spiritual domains to understand existence and trying to delimit existence only on an empirical plane narrows its scope, for existence is more than a set of empirical theories or formulas

[Dodo25]

We cannot ignore religious or spiritual domains to understand existence and trying to delimit existence only on an empirical plane narrows its scope, for existence is more than a set of empirical theories or formulas

Why not? We can ignore the 'domains of Narnia', so why would it be any different with other 'domains' of which there is no evidence?

[The Atheist]

Empiric cannot always define existence ..

Correct - humans define it.

Science can never define it, because it's inherently indescribable, since everyone's existence is personal and we cannot match qualia between people.

Due to that inability to see others' minds, we must make an individual choice as to whether we believe that reality exists, or we are an entity on its own and everything is a dream - solipsism or realism?

Pretty easy choice.

Every shred of hard evidence - lots of it counter-intuitive - has shown that reality, or existence since that's the term in question, is actually real and continues to work exactly as expected.

Taking it a step back to qualia; even that defence is in extreme danger, because while people can argue the individual analyses of qualia, MRI testing proves that people claiming to be having a specific thought use the exact same connections in the brain, so it may not be impossible to prove that all thought is a process. At that stage, all defence of any form of existence other than the actual one will become pointless........

... but it won't stop some people thinking up ways around it!

:D


Why not? We can ignore the 'domains of Narnia', so why would it be any different with other 'domains' of which there is no evidence?

Don't get me started on CS Lewis..... just don't get me started.

Being a literature forum, I dread his name coming up, because once the gates open on that puling sack of.....

(See what I mean?!)

I do like your style - and that analogy, which is one of those doubleplusgood ones, having been penned by the ....{/automatic response disabler initiated}

[dreamtime]

Hello Beloveds:

I am sort of new to the boards here:

I think that existence is our unique relationship we develop with our awareness and all elements unfolding around us. to be or not to be, and what we conceive in our imagination is very real.

"to be or not to be"
love. love. love is all around

[LMK]

Personally, I probably re-define existence on a daily basis. That might be a bit of an exaggeration, but how I think about sentient beings now verses how I thought of them in my, say twenties is very different.

Today, I would say that my existence is my physical heart beating and lungs breathing as well as my mind experiencing thought, feeling and emotion. Taking in what is around me in the world and reacting (or interacting) with that which is outside me, as well as intra-action within myself; with the goal for all of this action (re- inter- intra-) to become effortless, to go with the flow, to do the right thing given the situation (not interested in having a situational ethics debate regarding this comment) and to allow for the interconnectedness of sentient beings and the connection to that which is all energy.

[Dekarto]

Existence - to be present in the Creation.

[Paulclem]

I don't think that the definition of reality as that which can be empirically measured tells the whole story. Our experience of reality differs from person to person. How can you measure emotions or loyalty, for example which may affect our experience of existence?

Doesn't it also depend on who is experiencing it? The phycisit will no doubt describe reality using mathematical formula, whist an ordinary person like myself would find this meaningless.

[The Atheist]

I don't think that the definition of reality as that which can be empirically measured tells the whole story. Our experience of reality differs from person to person. How can you measure emotions or loyalty, for example which may affect our experience of existence?

Measure isn't the right word when it comes to emotions, but we can certainly identify them.

Using MRI techniques, it is factual that emotions like love and hate elicit identical responses in the same part of the brain.

Accordingly, I don't believe there's anything which cannot be proven empirically. Outside of the barking mad, I don't think perceptions of reality actually differ that much from person to person. We see the same colours, hear the same sounds and see the same things - barring defects in the odd individual like colour-blindness.

[Paulclem]

I agree about perceptions of reality - we have a common experience. I wonder how MRIs cope with the more complex emotions like frustration or self consciousness.

I suppose that leaves us in the realm of ideas - like loyalty, which can colour our interpretation and reaction to situations, and which may not be common to others.

[dafydd manton]

The state of being there, I should have thought. This might be a crass over simplification, but grass exists, yet has no sense of its own identity. Concrete exists, but man made the revolting stuff. Cats, without a cerebrum, exist, but you don't find them queueing up outside churches, temples, synagogues, mosques or whatever. Is there not a slight risk of making something inherently simple into rocket science? I'm not sure whether believing in a God (and I do) makes any difference to the fact that I exist. I was procreated, as we all were, so therefore, we are. We live. We Exist. The origin of the species makes not a jot of difference, it would seem.

[The Atheist]

I agree about perceptions of reality - we have a common experience. I wonder how MRIs cope with the more complex emotions like frustration or self consciousness.

I suppose that leaves us in the realm of ideas - like loyalty, which can colour our interpretation and reaction to situations, and which may not be common to others.

They're all based on human emotions, though, but I agree that esoteric concepts are difficult to pin down.

Give 'em time.


The state of being there, I should have thought. This might be a crass over simplification, but grass exists, yet has no sense of its own identity. Concrete exists, but man made the revolting stuff. Cats, without a cerebrum, exist, but you don't find them queueing up outside churches, temples, synagogues, mosques or whatever. Is there not a slight risk of making something inherently simple into rocket science? I'm not sure whether believing in a God (and I do) makes any difference to the fact that I exist. I was procreated, as we all were, so therefore, we are. We live. We Exist. The origin of the species makes not a jot of difference, it would seem.

Bloody well said!

Any other option gets bogged down in insanities like Schodinger's cat.

[mazHur]

The state of being there, I should have thought. This might be a crass over simplification, but grass exists, yet has no sense of its own identity. Concrete exists, but man made the revolting stuff. Cats, without a cerebrum, exist, but you don't find them queueing up outside churches, temples, synagogues, mosques or whatever. Is there not a slight risk of making something inherently simple into rocket science? I'm not sure whether believing in a God (and I do) makes any difference to the fact that I exist. I was procreated, as we all were, so therefore, we are. We live. We Exist. The origin of the species makes not a jot of difference, it would seem.

don't you think 'faith' provides you with a 'Code of Life'??

[Paulclem]

It does, but a humanist code, or a code of ethics unrelated to God - such as the medical code - does too.

[mazHur]

It does, but a humanist code, or a code of ethics unrelated to God - such as the medical code - does too.

'medical code' is limited in scope, here we are referring to a 'code of life' which invariably covers ethics and everything!!

[Paulclem]

'medical code' is limited in scope, here we are referring to a 'code of life' which invariably covers ethics and everything!!

Just an example off the top of my head. The Humanist's code then.

[caddy_caddy]

That which I feel it does exist

[dafydd manton]

I feel that I had a code of ethics, a code of conduct, in those days where God meant nothing to me. It may have been refined in some sense later, I shouldn't like to say, but to suggest that a code of life is exclusively the right of those who believe is a shade worrying. Particularly in light of the horrible things that different religions have done to each other, and indeed are still doing. You know the sort of thing - priests on both sides in two world wars, invoking the name of God prior to wholesale slaughter of one christian by another. If that is an acceptable code of conduct, I really don't think I want it, thanks.

[mazHur]

I feel that I had a code of ethics, a code of conduct, in those days where God meant nothing to me. It may have been refined in some sense later, I shouldn't like to say, but to suggest that a code of life is exclusively the right of those who believe is a shade worrying. Particularly in light of the horrible things that different religions have done to each other, and indeed are still doing. You know the sort of thing - priests on both sides in two world wars, invoking the name of God prior to wholesale slaughter of one christian by another. If that is an acceptable code of conduct, I really don't think I want it, thanks.

Code of Life means how to live and what your attitude should be towards others?? This code encompasses every sphere of life and living....it may be one in one place and other in the other....Bushmen had their own 'code of life' , others their own. Religions provide you with the choice to choose and act accordingly!!


That which I feel it does exist

but many believe in seeing is believing, is that right??
then what's the color of water?? Why does a thirsty man in a desert 'see' a mirage as a spring of water?

[caddy_caddy]

No , not to me Mazhur . Seeing is not believing.

[mazHur]

No , not to me Mazhur . Seeing is not believing.

Oh, sorry, not to you offcourse.

[Haunted]

Cats, without a cerebrum, exist, but you don't find them queueing up outside churches, temples, synagogues, mosques or whatever.

Whatever cerebrum is, I don't know if even I have one! But cats are highly intelligent and they are awareness of their existence and death. if they're not queueing up outside churches, etc., that's just because they're not all that religious. But my cats definitely line up outside my door to be let in. They experience shame, guilt, embarrassment, happiness — a whole spectrum of emotions not too different from people. It won't surprise me that most animals have a sense of existence, they just can't speak to let us know that they know.

[mazHur]

Whatever cerebrum is, I don't know if even I have one! But cats are highly intelligent and they are awareness of their existence and death. if they're not queueing up outside churches, etc., that's just because they're not all that religious. But my cats definitely line up outside my door to be let in. They experience shame, guilt, embarrassment, happiness — a whole spectrum of emotions not too different from people. It won't surprise me that most animals have a sense of existence, they just can't speak to let us know that they know.

so correct!!:clap:

[Paulclem]

I feel that I had a code of ethics, a code of conduct, in those days where God meant nothing to me. It may have been refined in some sense later, I shouldn't like to say, but to suggest that a code of life is exclusively the right of those who believe is a shade worrying. Particularly in light of the horrible things that different religions have done to each other, and indeed are still doing. You know the sort of thing - priests on both sides in two world wars, invoking the name of God prior to wholesale slaughter of one christian by another. If that is an acceptable code of conduct, I really don't think I want it, thanks.

Sound sense Dafydd. It's a common assumption that a religious code is needed when clearly many people get along without one.

[mazHur]

Existence

A Sufi was sauntering leisurely along when he was struck from behind.
He turned round and said to the rogue who had hit him: "He whom you
struck has been dead more than thrity years." The rogue replied: "How
can a dead man speak? Be ashamed, you are not united to God. If you
are spearated from him even by one hair it is as if you were a hundred
worlds away."

When you are reduced to ashes, including your baggage, you will have
not the least feeling of existence; but if there remains to you, as to
Jesus, only a simple needle, a hundred thieves lie in wait for you on
the road. Although Jesus had thrown down his baggage, the needle was
still able to scratch his face.

When existence disappears, neither riches nor empire, honours nor
dignity, have any meaning.

--Fariduddin Attar
from the Conference of the Birds
C.S. Nott version