July '10 Reading: Walden by Thoreau

[Scheherazade]

In July, we will be reading Walden.

Please post your thoughts and questions in this thread.

[Lost_Souls]

I don't yet know who 'we' is, but Walden is one of my all time favourites. I didn't grow up on it, nor was it pressed upon me. I just love the simplicity, the independent philosophy and love of nature that it contains, even if (or because) it is fictional.

[The Comedian]

Wow - I can't believe Walden won. But I'll be gladly participating in this discussion. And maybe I'll even read though Walden for the second time this year (read it in Fall).

I'll just throw this out there for anyone interested: When I read Walden, I whisper it to myself. I don't just read silently as I would a novel or magazine. The prose and ideas and joy of Walden ask for a slightly slower pace. And I've found that a quiet whisper help me to hit that mark that makes the joy of reading Walden all the more like a summer afternoon after the appointment book has been burned.

[Virgil]

Oh I would love to re-read this, but I don't have the time unfortunately. It's a great read. Possibly the best non-fiction work of literature that I can think of.

[applepie]

I'm going to give it a shot. I'll see how it goes once I have a copy :D

[ladycolleen]

Hello! I'm a newbie. Been looking for a book club. Glad you picked Walden. Haven't read it since high school. Looking forward to checking it out again.

[L.M. The Third]

I'm very glad it won! I'll begin it as soon as possible. That's interesting about how you whisper it, Comedian. I tend to do that with poetry, and sometimes with prose. I think I'll take my copy out to the woods and read it to the dogs!

By the way, I've never joined a book club discussion before. How do you usually go about it?

[ElBennet85]

hello!!I am new!I haven't read the book yet but I'll try reading it and share my opinion!Thanks for the nice forum!:smilewinkgrin:

[The Comedian]

Hello! I'm a newbie. Been looking for a book club. Glad you picked Walden. Haven't read it since high school. Looking forward to checking it out again.

Welcome to the forum!


I'm very glad it won! I'll begin it as soon as possible. That's interesting about how you whisper it, Comedian. I tend to do that with poetry, and sometimes with prose. I think I'll take my copy out to the woods and read it to the dogs!

By the way, I've never joined a book club discussion before. How do you usually go about it?

Just post what you like/don't like, questions, or discussion points about the book. Usually the discussion follows pretty naturally after that. I'll probably post some stuff about the first chapter, "Economy" tomorrow.

One of the things that I think is always under appreciated about Walden is it's humor: like Algebra or Shakespeare, people take Thoreau too seriously sometimes. Often, in Walden he makes fun of himself, makes nerdy word jokes, all sorts of stuff.

I do think that when reading Walden that we see his going to the woods as an "experiment": more than all the other nature-boy, hippie stuff that's been associated with the book, Walden is full of playful experiments with trying to live a spiritual, complete life. And it's full of failures.

I'm glad that you're joining the discussion L.M. -- High summer is a great time to take Walden outdoors and whisper it to the trees, brook, or dogs. :smile5:

[Janine]

How fortunate for me it's Walden. I have the book and I just got the audiotape set free from my library - they must be phasing them out. I restrained myself and only took this one and it happens to be the one we are reading - what luck!

[grace86]

Sweeeeet!! I've been just kind of meandering through it here and there. From what I do read of it though I love it! Count me in! I love the chapter on reading! I may be out of the conversation though if I take it with me to Guatemala.

[L.M. The Third]

Thanks for the explanation, Comedian. I've just been looking through the Introduction today.

[Dark Muse]

I have to admit I always presumed that Walden would prove to be a rather boring and tedious read but what I read in the description about it did sound like it could be intriguing and I figured I would give it a try for this discussion and I am surprised how much I am enjoying it thus far, and I have only just started reading it.

It really is quite enjoyable to read as well as surpassingly easy to read, the only problem I have is that because the book does sometimes have a bit of a rambling feeling to it, it makes my mind start to wander if I try to read too much of it all in one siting, my attention will start to stray.

Some books, most particularly books that are written as 1st person narration just have a certain rhythm to them which causes my mind to be distracted while reading, I guess it is sort of trance like.

LOL maybe it is because it is like listening to someone talk, and I do get impatient with people when they take too long to get to the point of what they are saying and after a certain point start to tune them out.

[Aragorn Elessar]

I should be able to get the book within a couple weeks. Looking forward to the read.

[Pensive]

I think I shall give it a shot! Hopefully would begin it tomorrow... :)

[ladycolleen]

I've started reading - just a few pages in. It took me a bit to get used to his English. I must say that I am now looking at this in a different way than I did when I was a 60's hippie! He was so revered by that group. But now, as an older person with more life experience, I see it somewhat differently!

[Dark Muse]

I have to say I am loving this book more and more as I read, I have to say that I find myself in complete agreement with the points that he makes about so called "civilization."

I absolutely loved his thoughts about clothes, as I found much of his thoughts so true even today, people do spend why too much time worrying about what they wear and how they look and spending ridiculous amounts of money on thier clothes.

[L.M. The Third]

The last few days have been busy, so I must confess I'm only half way through the first chapter. :blush:. I'm finding it a good, thought-provoking, read.



I absolutely loved his thoughts about clothes, as I found much of his thoughts so true even today, people do spend why too much time worrying about what they wear and how they look and spending ridiculous amounts of money on thier clothes.

I fully agree. "As for clothing, perhaps we are led oftener by the love of novelty, and a regard for the opinions of men, in procuring it, than by a true utility... The head monkey at Paris puts on a traveller's cap, and all the monkeys in America do the same."

Here are some of my favorite quotes:

"To stand on the meeting of two eternities, the past and future, which is precisely the present moment..."

"The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run."

"It is never too late to give up our prejudices. No way of thinking or doing, however ancient, can be trusted without proof."

"The finest qualities of our nature, like the bloom on fruits, can be preserved only by the most delicate handling. Yet we do not treat ourselves nor one another thus tenderly."

There are more, but I'd better not type out the whole chapter!

[Dark Muse]

I am finding his economy to be absolutely fascinating, and so much of what he says is still so relevant to today's world in the way in which people do become a slave to their luxuries and spend so much money on things of which they do not truly need. I particularly found it rather provoking when he was speaking of housing, and comparing so called civilization with "savages" and the way in which in what can be viewed as more primitive societies it is true that no individual goes without shelter while in civilization leaves many people poorer than the "savage."

I also loved his thoughts on communication. How with developing a quicker means of communicating with each other people may find they have less to say, or less of any real meaning or importance. Those ideas can be applied to social networks popular today such as Facebook in which people do spend so much time putting out such meaningless information simply because they can or because they feel the need to do so sense the means is there, while the truly important things seem to be lost.

[L.M. The Third]

Speaking of man becoming the slave to his possessions, I've just been visiting an uncle who is a great collector of anything which he may get his hands on. He is a slave to his house and possessions, to the exclusion of a higher life. And yet, even among the more 'sophisticated' and 'intellectual', we see a slavery to the pursuit of possession, such as Thoreau speaks of.

And, DM, the Facebook reference is so very appropriate!

[L.M. The Third]

Does anyone know what are some of the ideas about the “hound, bay horse, and turtle dove” in chapter one?

“The life which men praise and regard as successful is but one kind. Why should we exaggerate any one kind at the expense of the others?”
All through chapter one, Thoreau is showing us the worthlessness, and even detrimental effect, of the things society often values most. Yet he discounts art and philanthropy as anything other than the fruits of what is in the heart. So, what do you think Thoreau believes is the “higher state” referred to in the following quote?

“We have built for this world a mansion, and for the next a family tomb. The best works of art are the expression of man's struggle to free himself from this condition, but the effect of our art is merely to make this low state comfortable and that higher state to be forgotten. … “

[Dark Muse]

Based upon his overall theories and ideas, and his remarks that if a man were to jump into the Nile and drown it would be more admirable than those who slave away to build the pyramids, and his comments that he would be more interested in meeting the people who did not work on making the buildings, I think that the higher state he speaks of would be one of man who was completely free.

A man who follows his own path and does finds his own way and is not dependent upon others for means of his survival, nor one who confines himself within his walls, of which he had no hand in making himself, and surrounds himself with countless necessary items.

He speaks about for him the truest and greatest education would come from the student that labored for himself and did not just drain others of money paying for his tuition, but more the idea of a student of life and experience who contributed something rather than costing others.

So I think the higher state would be that of man who lived for himself and of his own means and by the sweat of his own brow who was not replying upon others to support him. And someone who had a complete and intimate understanding of the cost of their living.

[The Comedian]

I've always loved Thoreau's humility and humor, in addition the wisdom and descriptive capabilities.

While rightly criticized sometimes for his boasting, his humility gets overlooked. Here's one of my favorite lines from early in "Economy":


Here is life, an experiment to a great extent untried by me.

I cannot tell you all how much I admire and try to live the metaphor of life as an experiment, a testing ground for ideas, experiences, and feelings. But what touches me about this line in relation to the whole book is that Thoreau sees his life as really not having been lived in this spirit -- that all those "people" he was/does rail against. . .well, he's one of them.

Or this simple, but elegant word play:


for my greatest skill has been to want but little

here "want" means both "to desire" and "to lack" -- and that he calls this a "skill" suggest that it's not an innate quality but one that must be worded for, but the payoff is big. . . or maybe small. ;). . .or maybe just peaceful.

[Dark Muse]

I've always loved Thoreau's humility and humor, in addition the wisdom and descriptive capabilities.

While rightly criticized sometimes for his boasting, his humility gets overlooked. Here's one of my favorite lines from early in "Economy":

There are times where he does strike me as being a bit contradictory between the things he says and does, but I do believe there is a point within the story in which he openly admits to the contradictions.

[The Comedian]

There are times where he does strike me as being a bit contradictory between the things he says and does, but I do believe there is a point within the story in which he openly admits to the contradictions.

He does contradict himself -- but, even in saying that, I think that when we use "contradict" to describe Thoreau at Walden, we are being inaccurate. He sees his life at Walden as an experiment at living simply. And as an experiment, he's not exactly sure what the results will be. If you look at his inventory lists, he'll note something to the extent of "all of these experiments failed".

I guess, to speak well of Thoreau, he's not going to Walden to live simply -- he's going there to see if he can discover what living simply is and what, if any, benefit it will have on his mind, spirit, body, and pen.

[Dark Muse]

I have to say he lost me a little bit in the chapter "Reading."

For one thing I did find that to be a particularly tedious chapter to read and I just fail to see where it fits into the rest of his theories which thus far have revolved around his ideas of simple living and his economy and his ideas about the way in which man is burdened by his civilization and dependent upon others, imprisoned by unnecessary items of luxury.

Speaking of being contradictory it seemed some of his ideas expressed in the "Reading" chapter were at odds with his what he had said in the previous chapter. In fact I even thought that in "Economy" he had made some critical mention about those who read instead of living life for themselves.

As well he had made some harsh attacks upon the world of Academia and standard education, and yet at the end of the chapter of "Reading" it seems almost he says just the opposite when he suggests the need for greater education.

[ladycolleen]

I am not very far into this yet, but one of the things that bothered me in Economy is how little value he seems to place on labor. He says, for instance, that some people have "no time to be anything but a machine."

I think of, perhaps, a carpenter who loves his work and expresses himself through his work. I find this carpenter's work to be of great value. It is labor, but not the labor of a "machine" at all.

Or of the homemaker who spends countless hours doing things like cooking, cleaning, etc., but who loves doing these things for her family. That work is not the work of a "machine," but of a woman loving her family and expressing this love through the work she does for them.

I guess he covers this when he speaks of his audience as being those "who are discontented" and not those "who are well employed." I assume the contented homemaker and carpenter would not be his audience. But, I still feel like he is devaluing labor.

[ladycolleen]

I am enjoying his humor. I didn't remember much humor from the first time I read it. For example:

"The luxuriously rich are not simply kept comfortable warm, but unnaturally hot; as I implied before, they are cooked, of course a la mode." (Economy)

Or this one - from the section in Economy where he is mocking a farmer who says that you cannot live on vegetable food alone:

"...walking all the while he talks behind his oxen, which, with vegetable-made bones, jerk him and his lumbering plow along in spite of every obstacle."

[Dark Muse]

I am not very far into this yet, but one of the things that bothered me in Economy is how little value he seems to place on labor. He says, for instance, that some people have "no time to be anything but a machine."

I think of, perhaps, a carpenter who loves his work and expresses himself through his work. I find this carpenter's work to be of great value. It is labor, but not the labor of a "machine" at all.

Or of the homemaker who spends countless hours doing things like cooking, cleaning, etc., but who loves doing these things for her family. That work is not the work of a "machine," but of a woman loving her family and expressing this love through the work she does for them.

I guess he covers this when he speaks of his audience as being those "who are discontented" and not those "who are well employed." I assume the contented homemaker and carpenter would not be his audience. But, I still feel like he is devaluing labor.

The way I say it, when he speaks of labor he is thinking primarily of those who are slaving away simply to support the wealthy or to earn more money for themselves so that they themselves could then become chained to luxury items.

For example in speaking about labor he also spends a great deal of time talking about the Irish who worked upon the railroads, and those were not people who were working out of a labor of love, they were slaving away for underpay at work that often costs them their lives and they are doing it for a service in which when complete they themselves will not be able to enjoy because they won't be able to afford it.

He also talks of those that dedicate themselves to building houses, temples and tombs for the wealthy.

People who do not actually enjoy their own life but instead sacrifice themselves so others can have things of which they don't need.

He also talks about those that collect a bunch of extra stuff only than to become a slave to that stuff as when talks about having something just so that you must spend the rest of your life dusting if off, when you could have lived just as well without it. And when he refuses the mat someone offers him because he did not want than to have to take the time to always be cleaning it off once he had it.

[ladycolleen]

Dark Muse-

Thank you for your reply. And, I do agree with what you said. But, Thoreau also seems to have a bias against manual labor in general. For instance:

"Most men...are so occupied with...coarse labors of life that its finer fruits cannot be plucked by them. Their fingers, from excessive toil, are too clumsy and tremble too much for that." (Economy)

Man is capable of more than manual labor, but manual labor in itself can be a noble occupation.

It just bothered me to read these sentiments right at the beginning of this book.

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse-

Thank you for your reply. And, I do agree with what you said. But, Thoreau also seems to have a bias against manual labor in general. For instance:

"Most men...are so occupied with...coarse labors of life that its finer fruits cannot be plucked by them. Their fingers, from excessive toil, are too clumsy and tremble too much for that." (Economy)

Man is capable of more than manual labor, but manual labor in itself can be a noble occupation.

It just bothered me to read these sentiments right at the beginning of this book.

My impression is that he is against working in general. I do not think he would see any occupation in which a person is chained down to others, or chained down to their own greedy desires as being "noble" he is brutally critical of the wealthy and merchants as well.

He believes in completely free and independent living in which a person lives purely for themselves. Because he also says that he would not advise anyone else to live the way he lives either, because he thinks each person needs to individually choose their own way, and so he would not want to be the means of another choosing to live in a way that is not born purely from their own desire and choice.

He starts out with the example of manual labor, but I do not it as simply an attack upon labor, because by the end of the chapter her pretty much tears down every institution and occupation of the civilized world. He sees it all as being interconnected and all of it as a way of keeping people as slaves and preventing them from truly thinking for themselves of behind independent individuals.

But rather as being trapped in this cycle in which they feel as if they have to work in order to by the stuff they are led to believe that they need.

For example in the case of the cabinet maker, while I don't know if Thoreau would "approve" of the trade, as well he seems to be generally against trade in general and those concerned with making a profit, but I tend to think he would have more respect for the craftsman who made furniture because it is what gave him pleasure in life, then he would for the more industrialized labourer who saw only the profit and worked himself to death in work that was meaningless to him.

[Darcy101]

Am going to start it tonight!:smile5: am very much looking forward to it having read the remarks so far.

[ladycolleen]

Thanks again, Dark Muse for your thoughts. I haven't gotten very far yet, so I will reserve further comments until I read more.

But his thoughts so far do remind me of something that I used to say to my mom when I was a teen in the 60's. I used to say that everyone works so hard, at a job they don't like, in order to buy enough food, to keep them alive, so that they can go to work again at a job they don't like.

I know it sounds depressing, but it is how some people live- at least those who do not like the work they do.

[Dark Muse]

I am curious does anyone know Thoreau's religious beliefs?

He seems to be critical of the organization of the church, but does not appear to be an artist seems strongly influenced by Eastern philosophy.

This with this experiment in living simply off the land and away from civilization makes me think of transcendentalism.

[The Comedian]

I am curious does anyone know Thoreau's religious beliefs?

He seems to be critical of the organization of the church, but does not appear to be an artist seems strongly influenced by Eastern philosophy.

This with this experiment in living simply off the land and away from civilization makes me think of transcendentalism.

I don't think he has any particular religious beliefs. He's much more a student, more entertained by the questions than the answers, than he is a proponent of any particular belief. Even transcendentalism, something for which he is associated, is only a passable label for he beliefs at Walden. I think that you can see at Walden pond that Thoreau seeks to discover what living a spiritual life, in the most practical sense, means.

[RaoulDuke]

I've read Walden numerous times and enjoy it no less every time I do. I am completely beguiled by Thoreau's philosophy of self reliance, solitude, contemplation and being close to nature, and by his fearless dedication to it. But more than that; I love how he gets his thoughts across. The chapter Sounds where he is listening to the owls and letting his imagination run wild has to be one of my favourite sections of prose ever written. I find the whole book inspiring because it speeks to the rover in me, it feeds my wanderlust and it scrathes my itchy feet.

[Dark Muse]

I've read Walden numerous times and enjoy it no less every time I do. I am completely beguiled by Thoreau's philosophy of self reliance, solitude, contemplation and being close to nature, and by his fearless dedication to it. But more than that; I love how he gets his thoughts across. The chapter Sounds where he is listening to the owls and letting his imagination run wild has to be one of my favourite sections of prose ever written. I find the whole book inspiring because it speeks to the rover in me, it feeds my wanderlust and it scrathes my itchy feet.

Thus far Sounds and Serenity are my two favoirte chapters in the book. I agree that the prose in Sounds is truly quite remarkable and was wonderful to read.

[The Comedian]

I'll let you in on a little personal fanboy-dom of mine. I own four copies of Walden. All of which I have read many times. In the chapter "Sounds", mentioned above, I have underlined the line "I rejoice that there are owls" in each copy. And next to each underline, I have annotated as follows:


"Me too! I remember the Great Northerns in the Wyoming nights"

"Pray. We are blessed".

"Thankful for everyday miracles. I should read this line everyday"

And, last, (with apologies to Scher)


"Yee haw! ****in' a right".

[L.M. The Third]

I loved "Solitude", but I've got to confess that I was a little bit disappointed in "Sounds". Reading by a river in the Yukon, listening to water rushing over rocks, the occasional splash of fish, or the chatter of a squirrel, I was expecting something to parallel and enhance the experience. Yes, there were beautiful parts of the chapter, but I think I need some help appreciating the long exposition on the railroad. At one point he seems to be mourning all the labor, without a higher cause, put into the railroad, and the next he is praising the industry of the workers, etc.

[IceM]

I was, unfortunately, a bit late in starting my reading of this book, so pardon me for being a bit late in responding to some posts.


Dark Muse-

Thank you for your reply. And, I do agree with what you said. But, Thoreau also seems to have a bias against manual labor in general. For instance:

"Most men...are so occupied with...coarse labors of life that its finer fruits cannot be plucked by them. Their fingers, from excessive toil, are too clumsy and tremble too much for that." (Economy)

Man is capable of more than manual labor, but manual labor in itself can be a noble occupation.

It just bothered me to read these sentiments right at the beginning of this book.

I think you're being too literal here. Thoreau had to engage in manual labor to support himself at Walden Pond, both for wages and manual labor to get firewood, catch food, etc etc. Also remember that the Lowell system for manufacturing textiles originated perhaps thirty years prior to the publish of Walden. People were underpaid and advancement was non-existent. Job security was only guaranteed as long as consumer interest was high. While not a direct response to this economic structure (which was reflected in other industries, just not as prominently), Thoreau seems to comment more that Man should not engage in jobs that restrict him from gaining an understanding, either of himself or Life in general. After all, he does comment that "the fall from the farmer to the operative is as great and memorable as that from the man to the farmer." While, in the strictest, most literal sense of the text, you can call it a distaste of manual labor, Thoreau is just warning Man not to labor himself to blindness.


There are times where he does strike me as being a bit contradictory between the things he says and does, but I do believe there is a point within the story in which he openly admits to the contradictions.

You have to remember that, while eventually edited (posthumously, my copy said) by family members and publishers, more than anything else, Walden is a compilation of thoughts from his experiences at Walden Pond. While some "contradictions" are there, I tend to see them as Thoreau presenting the vices of his world, not just to justify his actions but to, although he claims not directly, implicitly guide Man towards finding himself.

[The Comedian]

I loved "Solitude", but I've got to confess that I was a little bit disappointed in "Sounds". Reading by a river in the Yukon, listening to water rushing over rocks, the occasional splash of fish, or the chatter of a squirrel, I was expecting something to parallel and enhance the experience. Yes, there were beautiful parts of the chapter, but I think I need some help appreciating the long exposition on the railroad. At one point he seems to be mourning all the labor, without a higher cause, put into the railroad, and the next he is praising the industry of the workers, etc.

You bring up a really good point L.M. -- he does both because, I think, he feels both. Walden, the book, is a document of an experiment. And for all the hype that he lives far out in the woods, he really doesn't. Nor does he claim to. He notes many times that the railroad is just on the opposite edge of the pond. And that he "wears a trail to town" in his two year living in his "house". -- He only refers to his residence there as "cabin" once, all other times he refers to it as a "house" which I feel is significant.

Anyway, I got distracted there. Thoreau does appreciate the train and the great human endeavor that it stands for. Sometimes. Other times, he wonders if all that beautiful human effort and energy couldn't be put to better purposes than transporting goods and services -- that maybe if we put such effort into living a more beautiful life, even if only for a couple of years, we the human condition would grow.

The train in Walden is a lot like the Internet of today. Sometimes we love it. Sometimes we hate it. But the truth of the matter is that we are conflicted about it. It's a guilty pleasure, a necessary evil, and a beautiful transport of fellowship and communication all at once. And I think that Thoreau is showing you not his final thoughts about technology and the wild, but the natural paths of his thinking about such things.

"Solitude" is a beautiful chapter too, by the way. I think tomorrow I'll quote some of my favorite lines.

My personal favorite chapter is "The Bean Field". I adore the wild/agricultural/mock-heroic flavor of the whole chapter. And the wonderful experimentation of it.

[Dark Muse]

You bring up a really good point L.M. -- he does both because, I think, he feels both. Walden, the book, is a document of an experiment. And for all the hype that he lives far out in the woods, he really doesn't. Nor does he claim to. He notes many times that the railroad is just on the opposite edge of the pond. And that he "wears a trail to town" in his two year living in his "house". -- He only refers to his residence there as "cabin" once, all other times he refers to it as a "house" which I feel is significant.

That is a good point. He really is not out roughing it in the wilderness, though he does live self-sufficiently, he also is still quite close to idealization. And while in the chapter "Solitude" he speaks of nature being his best company, and of how far away his nearest neighbors are, and glorifies the idea of being isolate from society and paints this rather romantic picture of life alone with nature.

I just started reading the chapter "Visitors" which seems to suggest that he did in fact quite frequently have people over for company, though who all these people are that would just pop up at his cabin I don't know, but it does seem as if in fact he did quite frequently have a good deal of human contact in spite of his praises of the pond and the owls being such great companions to him.

[The Comedian]

That is a good point. He really is not out roughing it in the wilderness, though he does live self-sufficiently, he also is still quite close to idealization. And while in the chapter "Solitude" he speaks of nature being his best company, and of how far away his nearest neighbors are, and glorifies the idea of being isolate from society and paints this rather romantic picture of life alone with nature.

I just started reading the chapter "Visitors" which seems to suggest that he did in fact quite frequently have people over for company, though who all these people are that would just pop up at his cabin I don't know, but it does seem as if in fact he did quite frequently have a good deal of human contact in spite of his praises of the pond and the owls being such great companions to him.

Exactly. He does live in "solitude" when compared to many of his townsmen and women, but he doesn't live alone. In fact, he enjoys company. But what he has at Walden, he learns, is freedom. I believe in "Solitude" he says something a long the lines of "there was a time when I thought that it was impossible to live away from human society and to still live a human life". (I'm going off of memory with that "quotation" so it may be off a bit). But we see this idea throughout the entire book: thoreau seeks to find the best balance, or idealization, as you say, of human society and natural harmony.

[Dark Muse]

I just finished reading the chapter "Visitors" and there was one thing of which I was not entirely certain about.

First he talks all about the woodcutter who would visit with him and than later on he mentioned a half-wit that he encountered, and I could not quite till if he genuinely admired what he viewed as their natural innocence, and their simple way of seeing things, how they were uncorrupted by society and civilization, or if he was patronizing them for their lack of intellectual thought.

[Dark Muse]

I just finished "The Bean Field" and agree it is a great chapter, I really enjoyed it, but is it just me or does Thoreau seem to be a bit obsessed with woodchucks? I think a person could start a drinking game based on how many times he mentioned the word woodchuck.

[L.M. The Third]

"Visitors" has been my favorite chapter yet. And I'm getting to really appreciate Thoreau's humor and honesty even when he may be slightly contradictory.

DM, I didn't gather that he feels patronizing towards these characters. Although, I did gather that they are something of a puzzle to him, because, of course, while he believes in the "simple life", development of the intellect is very important to him.

By the way, how do you think his thoughts in "The Bean Field" on labor and agriculture tie into what he expressed earlier? I found it reassuring. I took from it that his problem is with the labor and agriculture which pinches the mind and potential, and which becomes all absorbing. He could work hard on his land, yet it did not own him and bind his life.

[Dark Muse]

By the way, how do you think his thoughts in "The Bean Field" on labor and agriculture tie into what he expressed earlier? I found it reassuring. I took from it that his problem is with the labor and agriculture which pinches the mind and potential, and which becomes all absorbing. He could work hard on his land, yet it did not own him and bind his life.

I really enjoyed reading about his experiences with the Bean Field and in many ways I think that it serves to support the thoughts he expressed within Economy. It was always my feeling that his issue with labor and work was in the more industrial and commercialized way. I do not think that he was just against any form of physical labor.

In the Bean Field he displays how he works upon the land, but how the work is not all consuming to him, it does not distract from his leisure time, he works to support himself thus in his labor he is free and independent, he is working for himself.

During his thoughts on his working on his own little farm he criticizes commercialized agriculture and he works the land according to when and how he wants to do it, as he illustrates how the professional farmers try to instruct him on who to plant, when to hoe, and so forth, but he works at his own pace in the way that best suits him.

He is unwilling to become a slave to the work and let the work define who he is.

[L.M. The Third]

That's the impression I gained too, Dark Muse. It wouldn't make sense for someone like Thoreau, who wants to return to a natural life, to shun physical labor. But having, for example, a commercial farm, can control one's time, life, and mental state. It could cramp the mind into worries about the land and what it will yield.
Thoreau works, yet he also lets nature take its course, without fretting.

[Dark Muse]

I just finished "The Village" and I loved that chapter. I thought it was quite amusing the way in which he would walk into the village and study the people there the same way in which he would watch the animals in the woods around his place. And I loved the descriptions of traveling the woods in the darkness.

There is one thing of which I have been curious about. Throughout the book Thoreau alludes heavily to Homer, and The Odyssey, in addition to other classical Greek works. But it seems Homer most specifically comes up several times during the reading, and though in "Reading" he does talk about his reverence for Classical Greek literature, I was wondering just what particular significance does Homer have in relation to his own experiment and philosophies? I cannot quite draw a connection between them.

[applepie]

I broke down and picked up the audio book for this. I've not had any time to read, but I figure this way I can at least give it a shot ;) Am I going to miss much by listening instead of reading?

[The Comedian]

I broke down and picked up the audio book for this. I've not had any time to read, but I figure this way I can at least give it a shot ;) Am I going to miss much by listening instead of reading?

No problem -- I'd love to have you part of the conversation.

I just wanted to post a few things from the book that I enjoy:

Here's one from "The Bean Field"


By avarice and selfishness, and a grovelling habit, from which none of us is free, of regarding the soil as property, or the means of acquiring property chiefly, the landscape is deformed, husbandry is degraded with us, and the farmer lives the meanest of lives.

I love how Thoreau includes himself in this indictment -- "none of us is free" -- and how he hopes to rekindle the ancient idea of "husbandry" to both the land, but the landscape -- in the 1840s, that he thinks this ecologically is remarkable.

Or his mock-heroic hoeing of beans. .


Consider the intimate and curious acquaintance one makes with various kinds of weeds -- it will bear some iteration in the account, for there was so little iteration in the labor, -- disturbing their delicate organizations so ruthlessly, and making such invidious distinctions with his hoe, leveling whole ranks of one species, and sedulously cultivating another. . . .


that's Roman wormwood. . . .
http://www.herbaluna.com/images/artemesia.jpg


that's pigweed. . . .
http://www.bluestemprairie.com/.a/6a00d834516a0869e20115701d19c2970c-800wi


that's sorrel. . . .

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1155/698958323_a902768b6c.jpg

And, finally, the last paragraph of the bean-field is prose at its finest. .


We are wont to forget that the sun looks on our cultivated fields and on the prairies and forests without distinction. They all reflect and absorb his rays alike, and the former make but a small picture which he beholds in his daily course. In his view the earth is all equally cultivated like a garden. There fore we should receive the benefit of his light and heat with a corresponding trust and magnanimity. . .these beans have results which are not harvested by me. Do they not grow for woodchucks partly?

In this final passage I love how he sees the natural world not as wild, but as a garden -- something whose growth has intention and meaning and value. And, despite the obvious (mock) bravado of his earlier passages, I find Thoreau particularly humble in the book. His lesson of the bean field is as simple as it is timeless and spiritual: that we should treat everything with "a corresponding trust and magnanimity" and a humble mystery that his beans have purposes beyond his intentions.

And yes, DM, he does have thing against woodchucks. :lol: But he does give them some credit! :lol:

[Dark Muse]

I have been reading the book online, and originally I was reading it via Project Gutenberg when all of the sudden when I tried to open it up the file could no longer be found so I had to find another online version of the text and I happened upon this version that throughout includes photographs and illustrations of the places, people, wildlife and so forth of which Thoreau speaks of, including a few photos of Walden Pond.

For anyone who is interested here is a link:

http://thoreau.eserver.org/walden00.html#toc

[applepie]

I'm going to start listening tonight. Given that it is 10 hours+ for an audio book, I'm not sure I'm really saving any time, I think I'm just making it easier to multitask:D

[Dark Muse]

I absolutely loved the chapter Walden Pond. I myself have always been partial to lakes and I love the idea of a mountain lake. I thought the way in which he described the colors of the water was spectacular as well as such an accurate depiction of the water. There was so beautiful prose work and descriptions of the water and the wildlife around the water.

I loved the way he talked about the different types of fish that lived in the lake, I find fish to be strangely fascinating creatures and love to watch them, and the descriptions of the ripples across the water caused by the insects.

He captured everything so pristinely and so wonderful with such vivid detail.

[Aragorn Elessar]

Just started Walden the other day, and it's already the end of the month. Where has the time gone? But I must say, it's a good book so far!

[L.M. The Third]

I know it's already a new month, but the discussion seemed to wane a lot. Is the discussion over?

[JuniperWoolf]

FINALLY finished it. Took a while, eh? I had to read it veeeeery slooooowly, and now I have to read it again. I loved it.

[Odette68]

I thought Walden was so inspiring..Thoreau speaks of such a gentle time..He had no need for things to be happy.