Dancing in "Burnt Norton"

[Mr Mahmoud]

Eliot, we are told, was fond of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events, and other concerns. He usually employs the symbol of the "dance" in his "Burnt Norton". This raises two questions:
- Why do you think Eliot used the symbol and image of "dancing" in the poem?
- What are the connotations of this symbol?

In our Arabic culture, we see dancing as suggesting deception and fraud, or maybe futility and nothingness as in our proverb " like the one who danced in the middle of the stairs, neither seen by those above nor by those below"

So what does it mean in English culture in specific and the Western culture in general? ....Waiting for your opinions

[Mr Mahmoud]

13 views and no single reponse? Is my question that hard?!!!!

[Virgil]

13 views and no single reponse? Is my question that hard?!!!!

Actually Mr. Mahmoud it is a hard question. First of all most people haven't read the poem, and even for me, who has read the poem many times, I don't know if I can answer the question.

I take it you are referring to this passage:


At the still point of the turning world. Neither flesh nor fleshless;
Neither from nor towards; at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement. And do not call it fixity,
Where past and future are gathered. Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline. Except for the point, the still point,
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.
I can only say, there we have been: but I cannot say where.
And I cannot say, how long, for that is to place it in time.
The inner freedom from the practical desire,
The release from action and suffering, release from the inner
And the outer compulsion, yet surrounded
By a grace of sense, a white light still and moving,
Erhebung without motion, concentration
Without elimination, both a new world
And the old made explicit, understood
In the completion of its partial ecstasy,
The resolution of its partial horror.
Yet the enchainment of past and future
Woven in the weakness of the changing body,
Protects mankind from heaven and damnation
Which flesh cannot endure.

My thought is that the dance represents pattern and the habit of life, and at that "still point of the earth" where movement stops, then the pattern of life stops. I take that still point to be the point of eternity with God. At least that's how I read it. But I cannot confidently say that is a correct reading.

If you go to Part V of Burnt Norton, Eliot says this:


The detail of the pattern is movement,
As in the figure of the ten stairs.
Desire itself is movement
Not in itself desirable;
Love is itself unmoving,
Only the cause and end of movement,
Timeless, and undesiring
Except in the aspect of time
Caught in the form of limitation
Between un-being and being.
Sudden in a shaft of sunlight
Even while the dust moves
There rises the hidden laughter
Of children in the foliage
Quick now, here, now, always—
Ridiculous the waste sad time
Stretching before and after.

Somehow I see the pattern of this section as similar to the dance of that other section.

[NikolaiI]

It's not what the word "dance" means in English because it means different things.

Here...

At the still point of the turning world. Neither flesh nor fleshless;
Neither from nor towards; at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement. And do not call it fixity,
Where past and future are gathered. Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline. Except for the point, the still point,
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.

In the first point, it seems to mean "here the play is," and it's seemingly the play of everything. Where it happens. The second time Eliot uses it, it seems to mean all existence - the dance being all movement, and all creation. The still point of the turning world is like the hub of the wheel of life.

Garlic and sapphires in the mud
Clot the bedded axle-tree.
The trilling wire in the blood
Sings below inveterate scars
Appeasing long forgotten wars.
The dance along the artery
The circulation of the lymph
Are figured in the drift of stars
Ascend to summer in the tree
We move above the moving tree
In light upon the figured leaf
And hear upon the sodden floor
Below, the boarhound and the boar
Pursue their pattern as before
But reconciled among the stars.

This is a beautiful stanza. Here the dance is the intricate weave of the veins; the lymph. Or rather it seems that the dancers are now tiny; it seems that the poet has joined the echoes in size, too... now the poet is dancing along with the echoes which he originally set out to trace.

The dance along the artery
The circulation of the lymph
Are figured in the drift of stars

The dance is compared to the drift of the stars, or in other words, the set of them and their pattern.

Ascend to summer in the tree
We move above the moving tree
In light upon the figured leaf

And this is a beautiful dance... beautiful poem, and I think it is meaning the poet is dancing on the surface of the leaf in the same way light does. How literally that is, I am not sure.

And hear upon the sodden floor
Below, the boarhound and the boar
Pursue their pattern as before
But reconciled among the stars.

Here he reconciles a previous line, and solidifies the emphasis of the similarity of life here, (boarhound and boar), and the pattern of the stars. Analysing it kind of breaks up a beatiful peace of artwork; but what I got from reading this live, as it flowed, was that this was the poet's own reconciliation with the stars, or the universe, as well. Just my opinion... I feel that I can't explain what I felt from reading this poem, but in it, dance was the point, the beautiful movement, play, and affirmation of everything.

[billl]

Eliot, we are told, was fond of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events, and other concerns. He usually employs the symbol of the "dance" in his "Burnt Norton". This raises two questions:
- Why do you think Eliot used the symbol and image of "dancing" in the poem?
- What are the connotations of this symbol?

In our Arabic culture, we see dancing as suggesting deception and fraud, or maybe futility and nothingness as in our proverb " like the one who danced in the middle of the stairs, neither seen by those above nor by those below"

So what does it mean in English culture in specific and the Western culture in general? ....Waiting for your opinions


I think that the "dance" described in this poem would not be a particularly apt representative of the normal sense of "dance" in "English" or "Western" culture (let me say, I am nowhere near prepared to speak for Western culture as a whole, because that could get pretty broad in scope, and be riddled with disagreements on any particular issue, and I have no monopoly on English culture either--but I'll stick with the phrase, because I understand your point. This long parenthetical explanation is simply to forestall those who want to embark on the, perhaps VERY relevant, exploration of this issue. I'm leaving it aside for this post.)

I make this point simply because you have mentioned Arabic culture, and seem interested in "Western culture's" views on what dancing might symbolize. I think Eliot's "dance" is a somewhat unorthodox idea, within Western culture. It is connected to a sort of esoteric/mystical experience, sometimes described as a "dance" in mystical traditions worldwide (I can't help but include Sufis in this, but of course the Taoists, Buddhists, and others, as well) and not a distinctly Western notion at all. In writing this poem, Eliot isn't really echoing common Western notions--he is exploring an unconventional one (although, again, it is one that could be connected to prior mystics and spiritual traditions across the globe, including in the West).

For Eliot's idea of what "dance" means as a symbol in this poem, I think Virgil and Nikolai do a good job of basically explaining what is probably going on. Actually, they are perhaps also pointing to some things I'm going to discuss below, but I'm going to try and take a particular focus on "dance" and type a lot (sorry) about what I think it might mean in "English" or "Western culture".

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I once spent some time studying how to dance Merengue and Salsa, but probably wouldn't impress anybody. Perhaps a more talented dancer could comment on what actual dancing (with a partner, in performance, or in other manners) might "really" be like, and what they think it represents in everyday "Western" culture/society.

But, as far as symbolism in the wider Western world of Eliot's time, and even today, I don't think that "dance" would've automatically brought (or brings) ideas of "deception and fraud, or maybe futility and nothingness." It is a flexible symbol, and is MUCH more likely to represent "partnership," "beautiful coordination," or "a natural fluidity," among other things.

artfulness in motion
One interesting reading of "dance" as a symbol might be something like "artfulness in motion." (And I'm not talking about Eliot's poem anymore, here, although it might in some sense still be applicable.) I think that this is something pretty interesting, and might bear somewhat on your description of how your culture views the word/symbol.

On the one hand, artful motion would be fluid, and there is a sense in which the highest form of such motion would be spontaneous. However, a dance might be prepared in advance, and be all the more impressive for it. Indeed, when most of us think of particularly artful dance, we probably picture forms in which there is some planning or tradition of movements, at least, and perhaps planning to some great degree indeed.

preparedness and variability
I think the interesting point is that "planned dancing" (e.g. ballet, perhaps, being near one extreme) might only reach its greatest expression when accomplished with some sense of natural spontaneity. It would be human, warm, natural, and in no way 'dishonest' or deceitful, I don't think. And it would not be a representation of 'nothingness' or 'futility'. The next performance of the choreographed performance would provide few surprises beyond the performers' relative abilities or moods on that particular night. A certain intention and meaning would remain, openly expressed in prepared and practiced movement--but each performance would be unique. It is performed again, not frozen in time. There would be "rules", as well as a human, somewhat variable expression within them. And the variability would carry some meaning, in a good performance.

On the other hand, the "natural spontaneity" that makes for the execution of an excellent planned/choreographed dance could be carried to another extreme. Here, a planning out of the dancer's moves would (in the ideal extreme) not exist at all. The ultimate inspiration for the dance might be a mystery to the audience, as might its "meaning." There might not even be any music! Is the hidden nature of the inspiration a "deception"? Is the unplanned nature of it, and the ambiguity of its meaning somehow representative of "nothingness" or "futility"? And, as a symbol, might "dancing through life" represent a breaking away from commitments to others in one's society, and our meaningful connection to them? By "dancing between the stars" can the dancer's motions only take on a (dangerous) illusion of meaning?

Well, I think that it might be easy to fear such things, but I don't think that many people/dancers would ultimately conclude that our "purpose" here is to simply vanish into spontaneity without some tether to our history (of relationships, and past experiences), and without some consideration of what is best for others. I think that cases of "dancing between the stars" would be pretty rare. Even predominately spontaneous dancing involves a great deal of prior practice, learning (perhaps very basic) techniques and manners of communicating, which might later be applied "spontaneously". The achievement of "nothingness" in art is a pretty rare thing (to say the least...).

a celebration beyond words
These ideas of naturalness and spontaneity are very important, I think. We need these if we are to actually live as dignified, free individuals. We should, of course, have some interior life beyond the reach of others, but we do not always want to be afraid of expressing our truest feelings, in moments that we have them, in the ways that we choose. I believe that life should not always be a solemn chess game, for then it is more about the rules, and our fear of those rules, than it is about us. But we should also retain our respect, and social connection to others (and, even more, to those closest to our hearts), and not dissolve into a spontaneous and selfish series of self-justified, irrational whimsies.

A culture that completely rejects dance might likely (and I am simply speculating, I know little of this, really) be thinking in terms of one of the extreme aspects of "artful motion"--perhaps the more spontaneous aspect? Thus the concerns about "nothingness and futility" somehow looming on the horizon, or even closer... But, when dance is done well, I think this spontaneous aspect is more symbolic of very human experiences. For example: a sudden expression of grief, the unfolding of conversation, a child wriggling in mother's arms, a skillful hop across stones in a stream, the catching of a pencil that's just rolled off the desk.

[Mr Mahmoud]

- I'm sorry friends. I've just remembered something. Dancing in our culture means also joy and rapture. When one greatly succeds in doing something, one dances/jumps out of joy and so on.

Thanks very much all of you for furnishing me with some good background.

[billl]

You know, Mr Mahmoud, I'm not sure which country you are from, but (I myself had forgotten this, sort of like you might have forgotten in your case!), but I now remember some Saudi Arabian men once teaching a traditional Saudi dance to the rest of us in an ESL class here in the U.S. So there is another example. :-)

[NikolaiI]

- I'm sorry friends. I've just remembered something. Dancing in our culture means also joy and rapture. When one greatly succeds in doing something, one dances/jumps out of joy and so on.

Thanks very much all of you for furnishing me with some good background.

It's okay, Mr Mahmoud... I was really pretty sure it did but I didn't want to correct you. :)