Read the bible before reading Dante?

[Evaril]

I'm not too familiar with Dante to tell if I should read the bible first in order to understand the Divine Comedy intelligently. But I'm dying to read him and I don't have the patience to go through the bible at the moment. I am familiar with a good number of biblical characters and stories, and my translation of Dante (John Ciardi's) seems to have rather expansive notes.

Sorry if this has been asked before. I can't seem to find any old post on it.

[mal4mac]

I'm half-way through Paradise and haven't felt my not having read the Bible to be a problem at any stage - Mandelbaum provides sufficient notes. If you take the approach of reading the texts that influenced Dante first then you would need to read a library of books from Ancient Roman and Greek culture, Italian history, and more - not just the Bible!

I'd read some parts of the Bible that Dante mentions but had forgotten the details and needed the notes anyway. So you would not only have to read the Bible, but study it until you knew it backwards. That would be the equivalent (at least!) of taking a degree in Bible studies - so don't expect to do anything else for the next three years if you take that route... and then you'd have to spend another decade studying the classics of Ancient Greece and Rome.

Of course, you could make a lifetime reading plan that involves reading all the classics from the beginning, and get to Dante sometime in the 2020s. You would probably still need notes, but your reading would probably be richer because you would be closer to having Dante's level of culture.

But you might be hit by a bus tomorrow, which (I think) is the clinching argument for starting now... and you can always re-read Dante in the 2020s, when you have read all the earlier classics, and if you have avoided buses...

[loe]

If you would like to have more information before reading the Divine Comedy I would recommend a biography of Dante and then just start reading the Comedy (with notes).
Alongeside you can look up things in the bible or other books.

I would consider this more useful than reading the whole bible before and as mal4mac mentioned you would have to read many many more books before getting started with Dante and would still need the notes.

Best regards

[JCamilo]

You do not need to read the bible or any of the more relevant books (Dante himself, Agustine, Virgil, etc) to read The Divine Comedy. And nobody understands it in the first reading anyways, it is not meant to.

[keilj]

I think reading the Bible, or at least some of the books in the Bible, aids in understanding quite a bit of literature. Many authors have references, or use symbols, to the Bible - Steinbeck in East of Eden, much of Twain, so on

I guess my point is, I think the Bible is a part of the literary hierarchy, and having some familiarity of it is pretty essential

[togre]

Just remember....


Dante does not = Bible.


Reading the Bible will help, but Dante's images of afterlife and theology represent ideas not found in the Bible. He draws on some classic Roman Catholic theology, but even then he fills in blanks or changes things. You know, like an artist. :)

I guess I just don't want your opinion of the Bible to be based off anything but the Bible.


PS. Dante interesting, but not easy. I know I made it through Hell and Purgatory, but I think I wussed out in Heaven.

[kiki1982]

Reading the bible is useful, but, like others have said, it is not so that you will know it as well as Dante did. On top of that there are a few historical figures who do not feature in the bible (popes and such) and a number of Classical authors and figures who, naturally, do not feature in it either.

As long as you know a little about Heaven-Puratory-Paradise and stuff then it is ok. Just go along and look things up in the course of the book, with good notes that merely highlight stuff, you should be ok. If you want to get into it, you will be able to.

[Pryderi Agni]

Well, subjectively speaking, I don't think you need to go through the Bible to read Dante. Rather, I think you should brush up on your pagan myth and Greco-Roman history, because there a lot of characters from the pagan period that pop up throughout. That'll help you more; as far as the Bible is concerned, Dante's work itself serves as an intro to Christian eschatology, so reading the Bible would just be repetitive, not to mention superfluous.

[Evaril]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not as worried about the Greco-Roman myths and culture part, having already read the major antiquity texts (Homer, Virgil, a good chunk of Plato, Hesiod, Ovid, the dramatists, some histories, Seneca) as I am about the bible. Speaking of which, was Dante very much influenced by the Greeks directly? I'm not too knowledgeable about this, but weren't Greek texts rather new and inaccessible during his time? I'm assuming that most of his knowledge concerning the Greeks he acquired from the Romans?

[kiki1982]

Oh, I think he might have read some, but do not forget that 'translation' in those days was rather subjective. Where we now decide to make the soul of a text come across, the middleages way of translating was rather to have the 'truth' (=God is in the world) come across, so they might have translated things differently from say Plato than they would now. Because of that, when Constantinopel was sacked by the Turks, there came into existance a divide between translations in Western Europe and translations in the Arabic world of the same writers. Some of which have helped to reconstruct original texts. But some philosophy for example was not directly available, but was seen through the interpretations of others like maybe Saint Augustine (?). So, then you have one philosopher who tells his readers that Socrates said this that and the other, where the Arabs understood a totally different thing.

Beside which medieval people also interpreted certain things in different ways, all connected with God. Even mathematics :rolleyes:, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were strange interpretations of philosophers in there, but I can't tell you for sure...

[JCamilo]

If I am not mistaken, Dante didnt read greek texts, he read roman texts and versions and of course, Virgil and Ovid.

[stlukesguild]

If I am not mistaken, Dante didnt read greek texts, he read roman texts and versions and of course, Virgil and Ovid.

Yes. That is one reason he places Virgil above Homer. He's read Virgil in the original. Homer he only knows through Latin translations. Greek literature as a whole doesn't really make an impact until later in the Renaissance when scholars begin making a serious study of the texts and the books even go into publication with Aldus.

[JCamilo]

Yes, no wonder the 6 great in the limbo were himself, homer, virgil, ovid, lucan and Horace (Correct if I mistaken someone) and not any of the dramatists, hesiod, pindar, etc. and how his (and ours) versions of helenic myths are 99% of Ovid and not really, lets say, Hesiod.

[mal4mac]

If you would like to have more information before reading the Divine Comedy I would recommend a biography of Dante and then just start reading the Comedy (with notes).
Alongeside you can look up things in the bible or other books.


Careful! I tried that route by first taking "Dante: The Poet, the Political Thinker, the Man" by Barbara Reynolds out of the library. This is perhaps the most well known recent biography. She's a *very* respected Dante scholar and this is a very good, but terribly detailed, work of scholarship. It has far more detail than you need on reading the poem for the first time. I started reading Dante after slogging through the first few chapters of Reynolds and found the poem an easier read! In any case, I found the notes more useful than Reynolds because they put across the main points, including biographical facts, without burying them in a welter of detail. You might read Reynolds *after* you have read the poem, if you want to become a Dante expert.

[mal4mac]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not as worried about the Greco-Roman myths and culture part, having already read the major antiquity texts (Homer, Virgil, a good chunk of Plato, Hesiod, Ovid, the dramatists, some histories, Seneca) as I am about the bible. Speaking of which, was Dante very much influenced by the Greeks directly? I'm not too knowledgeable about this, but weren't Greek texts rather new and inaccessible during his time? I'm assuming that most of his knowledge concerning the Greeks he acquired from the Romans?

I've read Homer, Plato, and Seneca but that didn't help much! Given the number of references to Virgil and Ovid I kind of wish I had read them first. Virgil for obvious reason, but also Ovid, because Dante mentions many strange & interesting myths found in Ovid. The notes *do* summarise them, so it hasn't stopped me reading on... Can anyone recommend a good translation of Ovid? I have Ted Hughes's highly recommended translation and I'll be turning to that after Dante - but it's not complete. (Is it complete 'enough'?)

[mal4mac]

Almost all of Aristotle's works were translated into Latin in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. But only one work by Plato--the Timaeus--was available, partially, in Latin translation. Next to the Bible, he was the most important authority for two of Dante's favourite Christian thinkers, Albert the Great and Thomas Aquinas, both of whom strove to validate the role of reason and to sharpen its relationship to faith. But Dante probably read all of Aristotle available to him, whom he greatly admired ("the master of those who know".) Dante mentions nine Greek philosophers at the end of Inf. Canto IV, but he probably got most of the names from Aristotle, who produced a potted history of Greek philosophy .

P.S. I wouldn't read all of Aristotle & Aquinas before reading Dante, like the Bible, they are not fun reading... and remember that bus...

[March Hare]

I haven't watched it myself but Yale (oyc.yale.edu) has a Dante course that may be an aid. The course on the American novel since '45 was very good.

[WuWei]

There's a whole bunch of reading one should ideally do before approaching the Comedy, same as with every "encyclopaedic" work (from Faust to Ulysses). Bottomline is you can't, and scholarly notes usually do a pretty good job filling the blanks, so I wouldn't worry too much about the stuff you don't know.

I studied the Comedy in high school (I'm Italian, you see), and most certainly liked it, then studied it again as a college student, after having delved deep in Medieval philosophy, poetry and history. Did I enjoy it more? Yes, but honestly I think that is because I had grown up and was more interested in appreciating Dante's greatness to begin with. In other words, I took it more seriously.

If you have the correct attitude reading it (that is, if you're concious of the incredible difficulty it involves) and devote it time and effort, I'm absolutely sure you can compensate for whatever cultural prerequisite you think you lack.

Also, while we're at it, I honestly don't know how reading it in translation would work, but if you are to spend some time on it anyway, please, try to sneak a peek at the italian every now and then. It's really worth it, trust me.

[JBI]

If I am not mistaken, Dante didnt read greek texts, he read roman texts and versions and of course, Virgil and Ovid.

Yes. That is one reason he places Virgil above Homer. He's read Virgil in the original. Homer he only knows through Latin translations. Greek literature as a whole doesn't really make an impact until later in the Renaissance when scholars begin making a serious study of the texts and the books even go into publication with Aldus.

True, but then again, the so called "lots of reading" required for Dante Mal proposes is probably 50 or so books. The tradition is there, but I doubt that Dante had read many more than that, if even that. Spenser too, who is just as intertexted, only seems to have had 50 or so at his disposal (and strangely enough, not even Dante, though he mentions him in a few places).

The number of texts people at this period read is significantly less than one might think - they most certainly were not reading 1000 books, well maybe Erasmus later, but he was the most educated and literary person around 1500, this is earlier, before press.


I think the bulk of it is actually a collection of contemporary poets, and of books that reference, rather than contain the originals. In that sense, footnotes should be adequate. The Bible helps, Virgil helps, and a general history of the scholastic tradition would be beneficial, but knowing all of the Greek poets? Better to just read a general history of his time period than even read Homer, who I am not even sure he had read at all, and most certainly not in the original.

[SPQR]

I haven't read the entire Bible (who has??) but I've taken courses designated to the study of it--and with my limited knowledge--I was able to grasp Dante's Inferno pretty well. However, not only does Dante make references to biblical texts but also roman history, poets, and many other authors and literary works. When I read Dante, I relied on the notes of my translation and information from others who had read it, to attempt to grasp everything being mentioned.

Good luck! Let us know what you think of The Inferno.


Just remember....


Dante does not = Bible.


Reading the Bible will help, but Dante's images of afterlife and theology represent ideas not found in the Bible. He draws on some classic Roman Catholic theology, but even then he fills in blanks or changes things. You know, like an artist. :)

I guess I just don't want your opinion of the Bible to be based off anything but the Bible.


PS. Dante interesting, but not easy. I know I made it through Hell and Purgatory, but I think I wussed out in Heaven.

Excellent point!! Dante's Inferno is quite different than the Bible in many ways, especially the New Testament where the wrath, fire, and brimstone of the Old Testament is gone.


If I am not mistaken, Dante didnt read greek texts, he read roman texts and versions and of course, Virgil and Ovid.

Yes. That is one reason he places Virgil above Homer. He's read Virgil in the original. Homer he only knows through Latin translations. Greek literature as a whole doesn't really make an impact until later in the Renaissance when scholars begin making a serious study of the texts and the books even go into publication with Aldus.

Unrelated to the thread--but when you say, "Greek literature as a whole doesn't really make an impact until later in the Renaissance"--would the subject matter published in the Medici Library not include Greek lit? Curious to know what others have to say about this as well, I'm always interested in learning something new!

[mal4mac]

Unrelated to the thread--but when you say, "Greek literature as a whole doesn't really make an impact until later in the Renaissance"...

Aristotle certainly had an impact on Dante - though in translation. Of course then you have to ask if what we have is literature?! The remaining texts by Aristotle are thought, by most scholars, to be Aristotle's lecture notes, or notes taken by his students. Bloom only lists 'Nicomachean Ethics' and 'Poetics' in his Western Canon - probably because of their influence on subsequent literature rather than any inherent readability. Plato is a much easier read, and being 'finished' works has a much greater claim to literature - and Dante did read some Plato as well (though only part of one dialogue...)

Dante missed reading some great Latin poets as well - I've seen several commentators lament that he didn't read Lucretius, as he would surely have thought up a choice torment in Hell for him :)


True, but then again, the so called "lots of reading" required for Dante Mal proposes is probably 50 or so books...

But many are *really* long and hard, so it still seems like "lots" to me...

[JCamilo]

I believe what Stlukes means as Greek literature is the original works, in greek. They certainly had an impact, but mostly thru the lens of Latim authors. Not Plato, but Plotinus. Not Homer, but Virgil. This due of course, the fact that Latim was the idiom that was spread, not greek. Just like the arabic influences for Dante are most likely second hand.

[JBI]

Aristotle certainly had an impact on Dante - though in translation. Of course then you have to ask if what we have is literature?! The remaining texts by Aristotle are thought, by most scholars, to be Aristotle's lecture notes, or notes taken by his students. Bloom only lists 'Nicomachean Ethics' and 'Poetics' in his Western Canon - probably because of their influence on subsequent literature rather than any inherent readability. Plato is a much easier read, and being 'finished' works has a much greater claim to literature - and Dante did read some Plato as well (though only part of one dialogue...)

Dante missed reading some great Latin poets as well - I've seen several commentators lament that he didn't read Lucretius, as he would surely have thought up a choice torment in Hell for him :)



But many are *really* long and hard, so it still seems like "lots" to me...

I meant 50 to get every reference (assuming you retain 100% of what you read). The Wasteland is dependent on far more texts than that; quite simply put, to need to go beyond the footnotes and grasp 90% of the textual stuff, 5-10 books would be more than sufficient - to get the a) interpretive readings, which suggest certain personages represent others, you may need more, and to get the argumentative debates Dante raises and brushes upon, there are hundreds of thousands of books of Dante scholarship. Simply put though, a general Greek encyclopedia as one would find online, a reading of the Bible and of Virgil, and one book of Roman history, one book of Italian (Florentine) history, and one book of Church history would suffice, with a text on scholasticism thrown in for a greater understanding of the structure and greater arguments. From there, everything else is really just picking at individual footnotes, most of which are more than adequately covered in the editions people seem to mention. Truth be told, it is not a difficult text in terms of intertext, rather in terms of layering, and the fact that the poem can be read like the Bible, in terms of the way Dante's contemporaries were reading the Bible - that is where the art is, and where time and lots of reading come into play, but most people just want the gist of it - one wouldn't spend their life studying Dante in English anyway.

[JBI]

I haven't read the entire Bible (who has??) but I've taken courses designated to the study of it--and with my limited knowledge--I was able to grasp Dante's Inferno pretty well. However, not only does Dante make references to biblical texts but also roman history, poets, and many other authors and literary works. When I read Dante, I relied on the notes of my translation and information from others who had read it, to attempt to grasp everything being mentioned.

Good luck! Let us know what you think of The Inferno.



Excellent point!! Dante's Inferno is quite different than the Bible in many ways, especially the New Testament where the wrath, fire, and brimstone of the Old Testament is gone.



Unrelated to the thread--but when you say, "Greek literature as a whole doesn't really make an impact until later in the Renaissance"--would the subject matter published in the Medici Library not include Greek lit? Curious to know what others have to say about this as well, I'm always interested in learning something new!

Like Saint Lukes said, Greek Lit. doesn't really make it into wide circulation or understanding until later, particularly around the time of Erasmus and just before Luther - when Greek is "rediscovered" and undercuts much of Latin culture (mainly by destabilizing the Bible and rendering the Vulgate "imperfect" and bringing the reemergence of rhetorical understandings of text). This is done, essentially by Aldus who takes advantage of the vehicle to pull this off, print (though books were still godawfully expensive).

The big move of texts comes with the decline of Byzantium, so I am made to understand, where Greek scholars who have control of the language and history, as well as have manuscripts available to them, bring them over to Western Europe.

The Medici's themselves though don't exactly come into prominence until after Dante's death, and their library expanded with their influence of course.

[mal4mac]

Do you really need even 5-10 books to get the "textual stuff" adequately? Mandelbaums notes are giving me sufficient understanding, but they are dry and lacking in colour.

If you read, say, Ovid in a good translation don't you think that would add to the experience of reading Dante? When Dante makes references to myths in Ovid then (hopefully) they will spring back to mind in "full colour" if you have actually read Ovid - just reading the notes is unlikely to inspire the same aesthetic effect.

So, if you decide to read 5 books to enhance your re-reading of Dante, as an aesthetic experience, what should they be? I'd be most tempted to get good selected collections of:

Aristotle
Virgil
Ovid
Lucan
Horace

[milktea]

Dante didn't write the Bible?!

I was surprised when I first read Inferno to see all the aspects of hell that when I was a child made me tremble and sweat each time I told lie. Dante's Hell isn't in the bible and neither is his Purgatory. (I can't speak for Paradise as by the time I finished Purgatory I was so overwhelmed by the work that I stopped reading it and haven't got around to trying again) You can safely get by on footnotes if you're well versed in the classics. I finished the KJV long before reading the Divine Comedy, but found that the classics I had read (all listed on Bloom's canon list) were what really lessened my dependence on footnotes.

[milktea]

Can anyone recommend a good translation of Ovid? I have Ted Hughes's highly recommended translation and I'll be turning to that after Dante - but it's not complete. (Is it complete 'enough'?)

If you have a basic grasp of Latin, then the Loeb translations might be your best bet--at no bargain though >_< I shelled out about 50 bucks for just two of the books in the Ovid collection. I like Mandelbaum's translation of the Metamorphoses a lot, but Mandelbaum, Fagles, and Fitzgerald are my favorite translators so I'm biased.

[JBI]

Do you really need even 5-10 books to get the "textual stuff" adequately? Mandelbaums notes are giving me sufficient understanding, but they are dry and lacking in colour.

If you read, say, Ovid in a good translation don't you think that would add to the experience of reading Dante? When Dante makes references to myths in Ovid then (hopefully) they will spring back to mind in "full colour" if you have actually read Ovid - just reading the notes is unlikely to inspire the same aesthetic effect.

So, if you decide to read 5 books to enhance your re-reading of Dante, as an aesthetic experience, what should they be? I'd be most tempted to get good selected collections of:

Aristotle
Virgil
Ovid
Lucan
Horace

Not at all. Aristotle doesn't need to be read, and neither does Lucan, Horace perhaps not either. Dante, from what I can gather, was working more from catalogue style books of references rather than original texts anyway. A big study on his sources will give much more than the texts themselves, which in Dante are so modified from the original anyway.

[JCamilo]

I think people are confuding the difficulty of interpretation of the Comedy with lack of textual literal information. Telling who is Ungolino is not helpful, does no change anything, but the way Dante composed it, is what is hard.

[Babak Movahed]

I personally didn't find it necessary when I read it but it is vital to understand all the allusions in it. As you read through each level of hell you'll encounter specific people from different works and periods in history, the significance of the people in hell won't make any sense unless you research who they were or unless you have a really well annotated version of the work itself. Another I would pay attention to if I were you would be its form, to be specific examine the importance of the number 3. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to give much away but its pretty good, well at least the inferno is.