Deepwater Horizon

[Lulim]

Since the explosion and sinking of "Deepwater Horizon", 800000 l (800.000 liter = 211 337.6418 gallone) of crude oil are daily spilling out of the leaks, a vast oil slick drifting towards the southern US coasts, threatening to destroy both, livelihood of men, and the environment.

What do you think about it? Are European media, as usual, making too much of a fuss about it?

Who is suffering most from this accident? BP? The families of the eleven killed workers? The fishing and tourism industry? The environment?

Who is to be blamed -- if anyone?

What should be the consequences -- if any?

Do you consider it a case where some collateral damage has just to be accepted, for the sake of securing employment, and access to energy sources?

[JuniperWoolf]

I've had to clean oil-covered sea birds.... poor babies. It sucks for them most of all I think.

[papayahed]

What do you think about it? Are European media, as usual, making too much of a fuss about it?

Who is suffering most from this accident? BP? The families of the eleven killed workers? The fishing and tourism industry? The environment?

Who is to be blamed -- if anyone?

What should be the consequences -- if any?

Do you consider it a case where some collateral damage has just to be accepted, for the sake of securing employment, and access to energy sources?


No, I'm in Louisiana and it's a big deal here as well. The spill could have a huge impact on the gulf coast:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2952340/the_2010_bp_gulf_oil_spill_could_be.html


I live in the northern part of the state where they found one of the largest deposits of natural gas ever. Drilling companies have been popping up everywhere. Everybody thought it was the best thing since sliced bread when the oil companies were buying landowner's mineral rights but now the reality has set in and the wells are loud, there's tons more truck traffic and just recently several neighborhoods were evacuated for about a week because of high pressure on a well head and gas leaking into the water supply.

[JuniperWoolf]

Well, I'm freaking out about this.

It seems to me like no one really knows what the hell is going on. The solutions that I've read about so far sound infantile and ineffectual. I don't think that people really understand yet how serious this is, to absolutely every living creature on earth. Ecology is such a fine balance, something small (say, the introduction of sea urchins to an area where they don't belong) could change everything on a global scale. This isn't something small, this is huge. This is going to throw off every ecological niche on earth.

Every single marine foodchain is SCREWED, and without the bottom-most foodsourse (krill, diatoms, tiny little sensitive things like that which are RIGHT NOW dying off in massive numbers) there will be nothing for the other animals to eat. There are many land-animals that eat sea-animals (including us) and THEIR survival will be thrown into a tailspin as well. Then of course, the animals which feed on those animals and so on and so on... ****. This is really ****ing serious. I thought that the geniuses who developed the rigging mechanism in the first place would have stopped the geyser of oil long before this.

[BienvenuJDC]

I'll say this one thing. I am very impressed that Actor and Environmentalist Kevin Costner is putting his money where his mouth is. If you haven't heard of his efforts to help create a solution, google "Ocean Therapy". Talk is cheap and there are many celebrities who talk a big talk, but Kevin is actually doing something productive.

[DanielBenoit]

*sigh*

If there is a God, it must be sad sitting back and watching mankind kill itself. We must seem so pitifully stupid. Like a colony of ants collapsing their hill because they put too much sand on it.

[keilj]

There is blame to be shared all around. The oil companies and their colossal incompetence at having no failsafes or contingency plans, the people and their rampant consumerism and gluttonous lifestyles, the politicians, who will give lip service and feign indignation while being in the oil men's pockets, the incredible apathy and ignorance of how devastating this will be to the ecology, sea life, local fishermen and local seafood restaurants in the gulf.

overall the whole thing is so sickening to me that I don't even like to talk about it around the water cooler

[BienvenuJDC]

*sigh*

If there is a God, it must be sad sitting back and watching mankind kill itself. We must seem so pitifully stupid. Like a colony of ants collapsing their hill because they put too much sand on it.

As tragic as this is, I think that is an over dramatic approach...

[keilj]

1488


......................


As tragic as this is, I think that is an over dramatic approach...

Not really. man has poisoned and pillaged his way across the earth. From everything to fossil fuels to living things like whales and elephant tusks. Take a look at the history of whaling in the U.S., the national parks, currently we are still strip foresting in the Appalachians and also slicing the tops off of mountains in the Appalachians as well. Look at the ecological disaster that happened in TN a couple years ago - the biggest in U.S. history and it was barely even reported

[Virgil]

Good God. There's a reason I don't join in any of these discussions any more. People get so hysterical and over react. This is certainly not a good thing, and my heart goes out to the people and wildlife affected, but no one, and I repeat no one of any sanity, is going to turn the clock back to pre-industrial life. Oil is the life blood of the modern world. Your standard of living is based on it. I doubt anyone is going to give up their cars, electricity, winter heat, summer air conditioning, and electrical items. You are all consumers. This will have to be corrected, learned from, and better measures implemented in the future.

[plainjane]

Here is a link to ABC News video featuring Philippe Cousteau Jr. and some of his comments. http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/cousteau-jr-this-is-a-nightmare-a-nightmare-20009724;_ylt=AqzTsM5peJWYykMBb3PpGqKz174F;_ylu=X3 oDMTE3Z2Y2ZmV2BHBvcwMyBHNlYwNtb3N0LXBvcHVsYXIEc2xr A2NvdXN0ZWF1anJ0aA-- He said he'd never seen anything so bad.

[DanielBenoit]

Good God. There's a reason I don't join in any of these discussions any more. People get so hysterical and over react. This is certainly not a good thing, and my heart goes out to the people and wildlife affected, but no one, and I repeat no one of any sanity, is going to turn the clock back to pre-industrial life. Oil is the life blood of the modern world. Your standard of living is based on it. I doubt anyone is going to give up their cars, electricity, winter heat, summer air conditioning, and electrical items. You are all consumers. This will have to be corrected, learned from, and better measures implemented in the future.

I don't think anybody here was really suggesting that we'd going back to a pre-industrial society, not even close. (Though I can only speak for myself.)

This thread will probably be closed in the near future, as it is bound to get into current politics (how can it not?), but I will like to say that despite oil being the life blood of modern society, that is not entirely a good thing.

Because oil is such a vital source of energy and money, it has caused many very unfortunate things in recent decades, both political, environmental and economical.

I remain unspecific so as to not get my post removed, but oil has brought with its many benefits that we take for granted, an equal amount of disadvantages. Current alternative energies do not hold all of the answers either, but I think it should be a priority that we seek out to improve the technology so that we can cut-off our dependence on oil completely, which I admit is a overly optimistic and idealistic goal which has no chance of being fulfilled even in the next few decades.

[Lulim]

(...) but I think it should be a priority that we seek out to improve the technology so that we can cut-off our dependence on oil completely, (...)

As oil is running out, probably within this century, there will be no choice anyway.

[Virgil]

I don't think anybody here was really suggesting that we'd going back to a pre-industrial society, not even close. (Though I can only speak for myself.)

Well their hysteria implies it. The only reasonable alternative to oil is nuclear energy and that brings it's own issues. I welcome both. If you think we have economic and political problems now, just try to live in a world of limited energy souces. Then you will see economic and political problems like never before.


As oil is running out, probably within this century, there will be no choice anyway.

I've seen estimates (and not by whacky environmentalists but people in the oil industry) that we have probably consumed less than 20% of all the oil in the earth, and that's going back almost two hundred years of use. Sure we use more now because more nations are industirialized, but I bet we have at least several centruies of oil to use. We are stumbling over oil everywhere. Doesn't it amaze you that oil is discovered almost in all parts of the world? Oil has been a blessing. We would be living like people did two hundred years ago, with wood and possibly coal for heat. Everytime you turn on your electricity (and that includes your computer and ipod and DVD players) or get into a car you are reaping the benfits of oil. Love it. Embrace it. It's the life blood of the modern world. :D

[BienvenuJDC]

I know what they taught in school (which is mostly a bunch of misinformation). But have there been any estimates on how long it takes for oil to be produced in nature? We were always taught that coal took MILLIONS of years to form, but it has been discovered in the past few decades that vegetation can become coalified in a matter of just decades. So what is the truth about oil?

[DanielBenoit]

As oil is running out, probably within this century, there will be no choice anyway.

Exactly. . . . . .


Well their hysteria implies it. The only reasonable alternative to oil is nuclear energy and that brings it's own issues. I welcome both. If you think we have economic and political problems now, just try to live in a world of limited energy souces. Then you will see economic and political problems like never before.

. . . . . .which is why this is unavoidable.

Economic and political problems like never before? I'm not going to say that alternative energies are going to fix everything but one must not get hysterical either ;)

There's no clear solution to anything here, but it's always helpful to be informed. Here are some interesting articles I found. (Note: These links are not meant to be rhetorical, just enlightening. Though if you have any information that discredits something in the article, please do post it :) )

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/january7/power-010709.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/news/2690341

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/business/energy-environment/29renew.html?_r=1

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1028_041028_alternative_energy.html


I've seen estimates (and not by whacky environmentalists but people in the oil industry) that we have probably consumed less than 20% of all the oil in the earth, and that's going back almost two hundred years of use. Sure we use more now because more nations are industirialized, but I bet we have at least several centruies of oil to use. We are stumbling over oil everywhere.

So you prefer to take the word of individuals working in the oil industry, whose dollars depend on its continued existence over "whacky environmentalists", most of whom are scientists?

*SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST*

[keilj]

So you prefer to take the word of individuals working in the oil industry, whose dollars depend on its continued existence over "whacky environmentalists", most of whom are scientists?

*SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST*

brilliant

:iagree:

[NikolaiI]

I've seen estimates (and not by whacky environmentalists but people in the oil industry) that we have probably consumed less than 20% of all the oil in the earth, and that's going back almost two hundred years of use. Sure we use more now because more nations are industirialized, but I bet we have at least several centruies of oil to use. We are stumbling over oil everywhere. Doesn't it amaze you that oil is discovered almost in all parts of the world? Oil has been a blessing. We would be living like people did two hundred years ago, with wood and possibly coal for heat. Everytime you turn on your electricity (and that includes your computer and ipod and DVD players) or get into a car you are reaping the benfits of oil. Love it. Embrace it. It's the life blood of the modern world. :D

Only time will tell and I'm not really going to wrack my brain to find out how many years or centuries we have left, it's not that important to me.

However, everything you say about oil is true. It's a resource more powerful than any other we have.

So, what is the best thing to do with something that is more valuable as a resource than anything else? The best thing to do is use it when you need it. I know not everyone will change their lifestyle. But I honestly think that the oil we have we should, as a collective, conserve until we really need it - and by need it, I mean need in terms of a global crisis of some kind. Or invading aliens. What if there are aliens watching us and waiting until we are crippled by being out of oil? Then they attack, and all we have are sunlight powered weapons, which are a lot weaker? I know, I know, it's a significant hyperbole.

However, the priniciple remains the same. And I know that talking about 'should's are almost as bad as 'should have's - maybe much worse when we are talking about a seemingly unstoppable collective momentum. In the end, I am not going to worry except to try to be conservative with energy but simply because that's the best thing to do, not necessarily because of the current oil disaster. I cannot help but get the impression that we, as a collective, are blowing through our most precious resource like Chris Moneymaker went through the 60 K of his and his dad's off-shore account in college. Sorry just couldn't think of a better analogy.

The last thing I will say... is regardless of the impossibility of our changing everything in our lifestyle is just this... a feeling...

The next hole they are drilling (and they are drilling another one, nearby to that one) they will be going down not only the 5,000 ft. of water, but another 18,000 ft. of rock. To me.. this is just gotten beyond us. We can't do it and we should not drill that deep, not through 18,000 ft. of rock below another 5,000 ft. of water. We simply should not. I just know it in my gut.

It's a recipe for disaster which the immediately recent explosion has shown us. Even if we are more careful next time... The water is freezing, the pressures are enormous, and you still have 18,000 ft. of rock to go. Have fun.

[kilted exile]

actually virg is correct there are still vasts amounts of untapped oil - the issue relates more to the types of deposits available a lot are in deeper areas such as the well which leaked or in tar sands such as Alberta and Siberia.

I have a decent amount to say here and this post may go off on tangents at various times but I will keep that to a minimum as far as possible.

Firstly regarding the actual disaster: This is not an issue with the use of fossil fuels as an energy source, it is an issue of lack of safeguards, shoddy engineering, lack of response, and regulatory oversight. I have worked in engineering risk management and the main issue here that I can see is the lack of forethought regarding how they would fix this event if it happened. Then there is the slow response regarding permits for louisiana to build sand berms to protect the marshes and there is just a general confusion as to what is going on and who is exactly in charge (something not helped by 24 hour news coverage by many anchors who frankly dont really understand the processes involved and are more comfortable in a political rather than scientific knowledge base). The technology itself was not the issue just the design.

Secondly addressing the idea of replacing fossil fuels with other sources of energy - We are in no position to start doing that anytime within the next 50 years by my estimates. It is all well and good to talk about how we should look at wind, solar, or hydroelectric sources of power but it just is not feasible. The best replacement method is nuclear but the vocal minority (eg greenpeace) cause so much fuss about that it is almost impossible. Even wind power is turning into a bogeyman in some areas, so this leave us with solar and hydroelectric as "acceptable" and with hydroelectric I expect the next fuss to be regarding building dams and diverting natural process of rivers etc.

Finally we have virg's inteeligent point regarding how bad it would be economically if we got rid of the industry. Wake up people, think about how much of the worlds economy is dependent on oil and how many jobs are related to it - not to mention the impact on everything people buy going up by 200% to cover increased transportation costs - We cannot afford to get rid of fossil fuel use in the current climate.

[BienvenuJDC]

I am surprised (not really) that no one commented on the positive post that I made early in this thread.

Isn't it awesome that someone like Kevin Costner has put forth such an effort to fund and spend 15 years developing a machine that will help in the cleanup of oil spills?

It is called "Ocean Therapy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2heGyZUFP8)".

[NikolaiI]

Yeah, Bien - I agree with you, and you did a lot of good by even posting about it. I just also think that simply, we need to know our restrictions... and also quit saying it is impossible to stop acting like a young teenager blowing through their first sizable chunk of cash... Or, like an addictive personality anything going through their resources. That's seriously what it seems like to me. So let's stop saying it's impossible to change, and to fix things.

I'd say 18,000 ft of rock, at the beginning of which is in an incredible pressure at the bottom of the ocean, of freezing temperatures water, the bottom of 5,000 feet... I'd say that's a good limitation to set for ourselves, would you not agree?

How about, 5,000 ft. of water, where it is freezing and have huge pressures, plus 17,000 ft. of rock.... Let's just go for that oil... and leave the rest for a while, for a few centuries perhaps... Why not?

Let's conserve, eh?


actually virg is correct there are still vasts amounts of untapped oil - the issue relates more to the types of deposits available a lot are in deeper areas such as the well which leaked or in tar sands such as Alberta and Siberia.

I have a decent amount to say here and this post may go off on tangents at various times but I will keep that to a minimum as far as possible.

Firstly regarding the actual disaster: This is not an issue with the use of fossil fuels as an energy source, it is an issue of lack of safeguards, shoddy engineering, lack of response, and regulatory oversight. I have worked in engineering risk management and the main issue here that I can see is the lack of forethought regarding how they would fix this event if it happened. Then there is the slow response regarding permits for louisiana to build sand berms to protect the marshes and there is just a general confusion as to what is going on and who is exactly in charge (something not helped by 24 hour news coverage by many anchors who frankly dont really understand the processes involved and are more comfortable in a political rather than scientific knowledge base). The technology itself was not the issue just the design.

Secondly addressing the idea of replacing fossil fuels with other sources of energy - We are in no position to start doing that anytime within the next 50 years by my estimates. It is all well and good to talk about how we should look at wind, solar, or hydroelectric sources of power but it just is not feasible. The best replacement method is nuclear but the vocal minority (eg greenpeace) cause so much fuss about that it is almost impossible. Even wind power is turning into a bogeyman in some areas, so this leave us with solar and hydroelectric as "acceptable" and with hydroelectric I expect the next fuss to be regarding building dams and diverting natural process of rivers etc.

Finally we have virg's inteeligent point regarding how bad it would be economically if we got rid of the industry. Wake up people, think about how much of the worlds economy is dependent on oil and how many jobs are related to it - not to mention the impact on everything people buy going up by 200% to cover increased transportation costs - We cannot afford to get rid of fossil fuel use in the current climate.

Solutions to the world's problems must be very good, both in practical and theoretical nature. There are millions upon millions working to help with all of our problems with a truly boundless range of activities and projects.

They are doing things in all fields, and in all nations, and in all neighbourhoods. This is a good thing. This is one reason I say that we absolutely need to stop thinking that to make this world what we want it to be is impossible, is out of reach.

However, nuclear energy should be known to be the slow suicide of earth that it is. Nuclear power creates chemicals which are impossible to eliminate safely, with any of our current technology. The best we can do is contain it, while it will last thousands upon thousands of years.

If there is any leak, serious problems. There are some ideas which are just bad. Replacing our energy with nuclear is one of them.

Now - your points about safety are well taken. That's definitely a problem. Is it going to be fixed? Some real measures need to be taken because the industry is not under anyone's reigns at the moment. If you trace the causes of this catastrophe, it certainly comes from many safety regulations being ignored or cheapend or cut in half. If you trace it back a few years, it goes to one of the slimiest slugs to ever enter political power... It's really tied to him, he's got a definite part in what happened, in the chain of events.. I won't say his name though in the prayer that I don't contribute to this thread's closing. It's a vital issue that needs to be discussed.

And it doesn't matter who caused it, who is to blame, I really believe that it is not that important. What is important is that we do everything we can so that it does not happen again.

And Bien - I just wanted to mention Kevin again, just for you, so you don't feel ignored in the least... :) As Bien mentioned Kevin for one is really helping... so let's do what we can as well.

Any time a life form dies, it's loss is a part of the larger play - and if it is billions or trillions of life forms, then the more so... even if they are a "tiny" organism such as krill.

I don't think we should feel guilty overly... Even if we killed all life on earth we shouldn't feel guilty.. I only say this because guilt isn't what I feel, what I think is necessarily best... All that's needed is an awareness of the repercussions ... or rather the fact that we can't always know the repercussions to all our actions. It's one life-boat we got, so let's not dry it all up.

And if I have gone on too long, or if I have seemed to bleeding-heart liberal, that is not the main issue! The focus must be on us all generating the sanest, soberest, views of the crisis. And then come up with the soundest course of action.

Check out Guitar George,
He knows all the chords,
but he's strictly rhythm,
he doesn't wanna make it cry or sing.
Yeah and old guitar is all he can afford
when he gets up under the lights to play his thing.
And Harry doesn't mind if he doesn't make the scene..
he's got a day time job, he's doing alright.
He can play the honkey-tonk like anything,
Saving it up for Friday night.

[Scheherazade]

I have come here to close this thread but, after reading the last three posts, am inclined to give it another chance; maybe there is still some hope for humanity.

Some posts have been removed and this is the final reminder.

[Virgil]

[B][CENTER]I have come here to close this thread but, after reading the last three posts, am inclined to give it another chance; maybe there is still some hope for humanity.


I take it there's no hope for me? :wink5: Or am I not considered human? :D

[BienvenuJDC]

:eek: Am I to believe that my latest post might have saved this thread?

[NikolaiI]

:eek: Am I to believe that my latest post might have saved this thread?

No it was my random leaping off into Dire Strait's lyrics. :p

[BienvenuJDC]

No it was my random leaping off into Dire Strait's lyrics. :p

Now THAT makes sense... :coolgleamA::nod:

[BienvenuJDC]

I was totally impressed that Costner has spend like 15 years and $24 million for something that he believes in. If I had something to offer, I most definitely would. But I do try to conserve as much as I can in respects to fuel consumption. I hate wastefulness. However, I will say one thing...I will patronize Kevin Costner for any movie he makes even more so now.

[kilted exile]

I know of the range of projects and activities being carried out in attempts to find solutions to the dependence on fossil fuels (I studied a wide variety of them at college whilst gettting my environmental engineering tech) The problem is that nuclear is the most viable alternative, it is the sane sobre alternative and what we really should be doing. The problem is more one of scaremongering by various groups with different agendas which has people constantly worrying about the prospect of another chernobyl or about what happens if it leaks.

Where I live currently is about 50 km from a nuclear power plant and also a DGR (deep geologic repository) where nuclear waste from a large number of facilities throughout the continent are stored. There is no concern because correct management practices are being carried out an safety checks are in place. I have never seen even one letter to either of the local newspapers in town here about any resident worrying over nuclear, I do however see at least one letter a week by residents decrying the wind turbines that have been installed and the impact on human health from vibration and noise, not to mention the effect on local wildlife.

PS it was quite clearly my post which saved the thread.

[keilj]

I was totally impressed that Costner has spend like 15 years and $24 million for something that he believes in. If I had something to offer, I most definitely would. But I do try to conserve as much as I can in respects to fuel consumption. I hate wastefulness. However, I will say one thing...I will patronize Kevin Costner for any movie he makes even more so now.

Costner is the man for doing that. Sean Penn has done a ton for Haiti. I just wish the sand castle kicking adults of the world would stop piling up disasters for others to have to work hard to rectify (quake in Haiti obviously does not apply)

[BienvenuJDC]

PS it was quite clearly my post which saved the thread.

In retrospect, I can clearly see that...:biggrin5:

[NikolaiI]

I know of the range of projects and activities being carried out in attempts to find solutions to the dependence on fossil fuels (I studied a wide variety of them at college whilst gettting my environmental engineering tech) The problem is that nuclear is the most viable alternative, it is the sane sobre alternative and what we really should be doing. The problem is more one of scaremongering by various groups with different agendas which has people constantly worrying about the prospect of another chernobyl or about what happens if it leaks.

Where I live currently is about 50 km from a nuclear power plant and also a DGR (deep geologic repository) where nuclear waste from a large number of facilities throughout the continent are stored. There is no concern because correct management practices are being carried out an safety checks are in place. I have never seen even one letter to either of the local newspapers in town here about any resident worrying over nuclear, I do however see at least one letter a week by residents decrying the wind turbines that have been installed and the impact on human health from vibration and noise, not to mention the effect on local wildlife.

Kilt - I typed a reply but created a new thread because I didn't want to detract from this discussion. It's over in the Serious Discussions thread, as this one should be as well.