Is fidelity the real worth of a virtuous woman?

[blazeofglory]

This is indeed a disgusting question and I know I will be opposed. But the fact I am at liberty to ask any question since it does not specify particular persons. I am in a world torn between two values at the same time. Man craves for a chaste woman for his wife and so does woman. But it is truer of man. Virginity is divinized and most men notwithstanding their educational backgrounds and modern outlooks still yearn for women who are unadulterated. I may sound rude to those who have extra matrimonial affairs or having relationships outside their marital bonds.
It is really fascinating to share some of the quirks prevailing in different cultures. Of course values change with time and we do not think the way our grandpas thought. We assimilate newer values. We have greater challenges. We cannot ignore the fact that so many matrimonial ties break up specially but in less developed economies they turn out well. The reason is man meets his expectations and hopes in his wife and there is a little renunciation or self-denial. Women try to maintain chastity and this becomes a testimony of her feminist temperament. Of course woman too expects her husband to be loyal yet the trustiness of woman is a greater virtue, an asset that sustains her significance. That is why chastity or faithfulness has always propped up wedded family members in the eastern world and there comes a tad distortion in these values over time as there is more global integration everywhere as people trade not only in merchandise with global but also values and cultures.
I do not think what I have written should incense any westerners for it is not a bigoted idea. I do not support any. I of course grew up in such a cultural setup and my ideas of chastity; fidelity is built around this ideology.
Today we venerate feminism and feminine activism is a norm and they raise high-pitched voices for woman’s emancipation even in developing economies and the female league is so powerful now that there is a reversal of the age-old value. A widow is getting social recognition, and of course gradually family recognition too. Just a couple of decades ago, not even 1 % of the population was not prepared to let a widow remarry and now many new and well educated youngsters are prepared to have matrimonial relationships with widows and widowhood is not considered a curse but a circumstance. I may be somewhat ambiguous since I come from a different culture and would make myself more clear in my subsequent posts here
I leave it for open discussions

[The Comedian]

I can't wait for the responses here. I'm gettin' my marshmallows ready for roastin', 'cause I predict a bonfire. ;)

[MarkBastable]

I can't wait for the responses here. I'm gettin' my marshmallows ready for roastin', 'cause I predict a bonfire. ;)

You get the marshmallows - I'll go pop some corn and shove a sixpack of beers in the fridge.

[applepie]

I'm afraid that I'm a little confused by your question. Are you asking if a woman is only virtuous if she comes to her marriage bed a virgin? Or are you asking more in regards to remaining faithful to her wedding vows?

I personally think it is important to remain faithful to a partner once promising to do so in a marriage ceremony. I don't suppose that it has much to do with being virtuous to me, but it has everything to do with trust an honesty. Throwing away the vows that you make before your family and god proves your lack of trustworthiness. I have no belief in divorce, though I do acknowledge in some cases that it is necessary. In the situation of abuse then I can support it, but I knew that I would never be willing to take that as a way out.

Given that I took marriage seriously, even at a very young age, I didn't place a lot of value on virginity. I wanted to be sure that I would have physical chemistry with my future husband. I would not have been able to marry someone who had a large number of sexual partners in their past, but I didn't expect chastity out of either of us. I did expect that neither of us would have had 50 people in the past when we were only 18 and 21.


I can't wait for the responses here. I'm gettin' my marshmallows ready for roastin', 'cause I predict a bonfire. ;)

If you and Mark have brought marshmallows and beer, I suppose I'll get the hotdogs ;)

[dizzydoll]

Firstly my friend Blaze, as women we are no longer offended by a post like yours in the West because Thanks God we have our freedom. Now try to take it away from us.. then you have no idea what high-pitched voices really will sound like.

Personally I am more happy with the men of the West because of their openness to woman's civil rights for their daughters and grand daughters sakes. I dont know one man in the West who would get married to a virgin today, not one.. and I am not surprised. Marriage is a big step even tho its easy to get divorced.

I notice men from the East are allowed [if not expected to have] as many sexual partners as they wish, whether they be married or not. I believe this double standard in values and respect is their downfall.

Anyway when it comes to the East I am more interested in the differing spiritual belief systems than I am in the men per se. But that is perfectly natural, a tall blonde really does look better on a Westerners arm. Dont you think?


Women try to maintain chastity and this becomes a testimony of her feminist temperament.

In this statement lies total contradiction, definitely in the West.

feminist temperament = freedom to express.
maintain chastity = controlled sexuality.

Women the world over have been owned, sold, viewed as unpure, discarded for not providing a son, voiceless +++... since the beginning of time until just recently. I believe its time our Eastern sisters began to see their own true value and worthiness for a change and break free to explore her own independence and personal growth. They have far more power than men would have them believe, after all it is they who can choose whether or not to have children. She can cripple a nation if she wants... but "she" is too pure to do so and "he" is too insecure to see this or her worthiness.

In some Arab countries women are worth less than mens camels or horses. As well women have less rights than her 13 year old son.

Yes, its only been about 60 years that women in the West have been allowed to grow in independence, own property, own a bank account, to vote, allowed to inherit from her fathers estate +++... and for all this I am truly grateful. Now WE can look forward to 50/50 equal governance in parliaments worldwide in the future. "One gender to watch the other" lol, the way of the future, surely it will cut out a lot of corruption. We need future generations of women to educate themselves in order to sniff out the halls and corridors of justice to make it FAIR for all.

[Annamariah]

I dont know one man in the West who would get married to a virgin today, not one.. and I am not surprised. Marriage is a big step even tho its easy to get divorced.

Even they are a small minority, there are still people who are against premarital sex even in Western countries. Most of them are religious, but I've heard of some atheists who share this opinion too. And in this case chastity is expected not only from women, but from men also.

But generally speaking, yeah, most people nowadays think it's a crazy idea to get married before a "test run" in the bedroom.

[BienvenuJDC]

This is the words of King Solomon of Israel. He describes in his wisdom what he considers a virtuous woman.

Proverbs 31:10-31

10 Who can find a virtuous wife?
For her worth is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband safely trusts her;
So he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good and not evil
All the days of her life.
13 She seeks wool and flax,
And willingly works with her hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
She brings her food from afar.
15 She also rises while it is yet night,
And provides food for her household,
And a portion for her maidservants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
From her profits she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength,
And strengthens her arms.
18 She perceives that her merchandise is good,
And her lamp does not go out by night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
And her hand holds the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor,
Yes, she reaches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of snow for her household,
For all her household is clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes tapestry for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies sashes for the merchants.
25 Strength and honor are her clothing;
She shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She opens her mouth with wisdom,
And on her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She watches over the ways of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and call her blessed;
Her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “ Many daughters have done well,
But you excel them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing,
But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands,
And let her own works praise her in the gates.

Take notice that there is no mention of how the woman was in respects to chastity when she came into the marriage. However, one could delve into the Jewish customs of the time to understand that virginity for women was assumed to be the norm. Polygamy was practiced at that time, allowed by God, but as Jesus later points out in Matthew 19, from the beginning it was not to be that way (referring to Genesis 2). However, from the strictest interpretation of the Scriptures given to the Israelites, not only was the woman to enter the marriage relationship as a virgin, but also the man.

Even though one should not be judged as not virtuous in respects to entering the marriage bond, it is my consideration that both parties ought to consider it a virtuous thing to marry as a virgin.

[OrphanPip]

I'll echo Mk on this, if you mean fidelity in marriage or a relationship, certainly. I don't think people need to go the marriage bed virgins. However, I should probably admit that I don't particularly care for the institution of marriage anyway, as if legal contracts make relationships somehow more significant.

[applepie]

However, I should probably admit that I don't particularly care for the institution of marriage anyway, as if legal contracts make relationships somehow more significant.

:D If you were to ask me why my husband and I married you would likely get the response that it seemed like the thing to do for any number of reasons. Don't get me wrong, we had been together for a couple of years, but we just sort of looked at each other maybe 6 months after he joined the military and asked "why not make it permanent". It was a bit of a whim, and we just sort of fell into it. We were married in a month, and that's history. I don't think that being married really changed us and our relationship any more than living together would have. The only difference is that we would have had an easier time of walking away when things got hard. The promises we made each other are what's important, and that is what we worried about breaking. The piece of paper is irrelevant.

[Jozanny]

Tagging onto mk's post, and perhaps also my shocking concession to suburban mores and mentality, is the observation that a marriage can be more than the union of its parts. I broke my engagement literally weeks before the wedding, and I lost something more than a fiance--although it took me years to realize on the balance that losing my status as a married woman was probably the right thing--but a family is more than a sexual union, and something intangible gets broken if the relationship between a legally married couple breaks with it.

[JuniperWoolf]

Like MK, I'm really not sure what you're asking, but you seem to be implying that women should try to maintain this lifeless, slave-like image of virginity (and I use the word "image" conciously - before women in Europe gained independance, they used to insert bladders filled with chicken blood into their vaginas on their wedding night... "ouch! Oh, it hurts so much honey!" Haha).

Why should there be different standards for women than for men?

[Paulclem]

Blaze, here in the UK, the question of virginity just doesn't figure in relatinship unless the people involved are practising Christians. Twenty odd years ago it was the same when I was a young chap. It never crossed mine or my associates, minds, male or female - ever. It was no-ones business but your own.

Fidelity is different, and there is the strong expectation that you will be faithful to your partner.

Having said that, in western countries there is the infrastructure of adultery, by which I mean we have pubs and clubs etc etc where a person can cheat on their partners.

I know that in a number of countries, they don't have this infrastructure, or have cultural prohibitions against women frequenting them. In Turkey ,for example, you may see many men in cafes etc, but no women. (Or rather this was the case when I was last there in 1990).

Can I enquire as to why you are asking?

[Revolte]

Yes, its only been about 60 years that women in the West have been allowed to grow in independence, own property, own a bank account, to vote

AKA to pay taxes.

[The Atheist]

Virginity is divinized and most men notwithstanding their educational backgrounds and modern outlooks still yearn for women who are unadulterated.

I've always wondered why that is - not that it's much of a question in the west, anyway.

I'd much rather have a woman who understood sex rather than have to play teacher.


This is the words of King Solomon of Israel. He describes in his wisdom what he considers a virtuous woman.

No irony in a bloke with 1000 concubines writing that.

[TurquoiseSunset]

Well, see, it's that whole 'double edged sword' thingie again. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...unless you're a Christian :D


I dont know one man in the West who would get married to a virgin today, not one...

My fellow South African, from this I assume you are not an Afrikaner? :D I know MANY guys like that. In my culture (Afrikaner culture) calvinistic influences still play a role. Usually virginity is only an issue when you are a Christian, but not neccesarily. I know for a fact some guys, who are not very religious, will still be pleased as punch to get a girlfriend who's a virgin (though it would be a little inconveniet). Whether or not she stays that way is not always an issue. However, Afrikaners aren't as conservative as they used to be, so now virginity is becoming a grey area. Some people expect you to stay a virgin, but oddly, if you become older and remain one you are wierd or to be pittied (like it happened to you and not like you chose it :lol). So then it's okay to have sex, but if you want to marry a Christian it's probably better to not have sex. It's super confusing...whether you're doing it or not, and I encouter that confusion every day between my friends and acquaintances...married, unmarried, single, atteched, virgin or not.

I'm a Christian, and I can see many benefits to staying a virgin, but personally, I don't think it's neccesary. Having sex is okay if it's done in a serious and committed relationship. Also, maybe it's a good idea to leave off from having sex until you're an adult. In that case I don't think it makes a woman or a man less virtuous. It's just my opinion though...use it or lose it.

[dizzydoll]

I know MANY guys like that. In my culture (Afrikaner culture) calvinistic influences still play a role.

That is changing fast, just speak to the 13 and 14 year olds in school today. Its totally different these days. Dont get me wrong I wish kids would wait until they get out of school to have sex but no amount of wishing will turn this clock back.. its a worldwide phenomenon. I blame the media, but since I chose not to have kids myself I am eternally grateful to not have this headache. I am really really free, its so cool... I can pack up anytime and go anywhere my heart desires, its too cool.

[TurquoiseSunset]

That is changing fast, just speak to the 13 and 14 year olds in school today. Its totally different these days. Dont get me wrong I wish kids would wait until they get out of school to have sex but no amount of wishing will turn this clock back.. its a worldwide phenomenon. I blame the media, but since I chose not to have kids myself I am eternally grateful to not have this headache. I am really really free, its so cool... I can pack up anytime and go anywhere my heart desires, its too cool.

I hear you. Things are changing and that's what makes it a confusing subject to navigate. Although, I blame the parents, not the media (that plays a role too obviously). I know a few (and know of a few) 12 to 18 year olds who at least share my opinion on the issue, i.e. that pre-marital sex is okay, but in a committed relationship.

I must say that I will like to have kids one day (if possible and practicle), but would like to raise them to think things through and to take repsonsibility for themselves and their choices at all times. Then, hopefully, the choices they make will be good for them irrespective of what they might be.

[*Classic*Charm*]

I blame the media

Urgh I'm so tired of everyone blaming "The Media" for everything!! What about the parents?! Teach your kids to think for themselves and they won't feel the need to look elsewhere for guidance! </endrant>

Back to the task at hand...

The circumstances surrounding why a woman remains a virgin are something that makes a difference, are they not? Yes, there are women who actively choose to not have sex until marriage. That seems to turn most men off. But there are also women who pass the usual age but are not actively choosing not to per se; they simply haven't found the right set of circumstances. Does that make a difference in turning men away?

For example, a friend of mine is 22 and a virgin- not because she's making an effort not to have sex but because she hasn't been in a relationship in which she felt comfortable to take that step. Let's face it- being a 22-year old virgin is pretty unusual these days. So much so that my friend is embarrassed by it.

That seems pretty contrary to Blaze's initial post stating that virginity is a good thing. When did it become something to be embarrassed of?

[Revolte]

I think it's normal for kids to have sex at a young age. It might not be the safest thing, but I still think its natural. It's no ones fault other then sex drive itself. You can't really teach some one not to have sex, you can try to inforce it, but that will only so far, instinct is instinct.

[BienvenuJDC]

I think it's normal for kids to have sex at a young age. It might not be the safest thing, but I still think its natural. It's no ones fault other then sex drive itself. You can't really teach some one not to have sex, you can try to inforce it, but that will only so far, instinct is instinct.

Are you trying to say that self control cannot be taught? That is a rather ridiculous notion.

[OrphanPip]

I'm going to have to agree with Bien on this. We should be promoting delayed sexual initiation in kids, but we have to make sure to do it in the proper way. I don't think teaching kids that sex is bad is the way to go though, I think responsible behavior will follow naturally from teaching the risks and responsibilities that come along with sex.

As to adults, whether they want to remain a virgin or not is their personal business and I don't think it means much if someone is a virgin or not. Looking for sexual experience in a partner is probably indicative of a bad attitude towards relationships to begin with.

[dizzydoll]

Urgh I'm so tired of everyone blaming "The Media" for everything!!

Well its no good getting tired of the truth my dear. Magazines with their airbrushing and touch ups, Television and Movies with violence and sexual visuals mislead the kids into what is real and what is not, what is acceptable and what is not. So I am sick and tired of it, due to this I dont buy the magazines anymore, I dont watch the television or movies for that matter. If more people stopped buying into this Media-BS the world WOULD be a much better place. So yea, I will continue to state that I blame the Media and have as much contempt for them, [who are only interested in their back pockets] as I do for drugs that cause as much damage to our fledglings.

You know for all societies intellectual abilities, stupidity escapes us not. We eat poison and we feed our kids poison on every level imaginable. Very very stupid. As for parents, they cant be there all the time... you and I know ALL kids do what they should not. Try to imagine the world without Magazines, its looking better already... to me.

[Revolte]

Are you trying to say that self control cannot be taught? That is a rather ridiculous notion.

Nah thats not what I was trying to say, my thoughts are scatterd today. My point was you cant teach someone not to WANT to have sex. Though to be honest I'm not sure self control can be taught to certain levels, nor do I think it's healthy to do so, its not really self control if its taught though is it? unless its self taught. Then again I suppose you can after all, its so easy to scare people into doing your wishes so.. If you count scaring someone into not having sex as teaching then, yeah its possible, other wise I need an argument for it, that has nothing to do with installing fear.

p.s. im not thinking straight right now so tear this apart at will lol.

[TurquoiseSunset]

Let's face it- being a 22-year old virgin is pretty unusual these days. So much so that my friend is embarrassed by it.

That seems pretty contrary to Blaze's initial post stating that virginity is a good thing. When did it become something to be embarrassed of?

Blaze's culture, even if more liberal these days, is still more conservative than yours, which I assume is Western. So in some cultures it's "embarrassing" and in other's it's not. Anyway, I think it's narrowminded of people to treat others like weirdos for waiting. Even if your friend became a forty year old virgin, what iffenrece would that make? It's good that she's waiting for someone special or the right circumstances instead of just doing it and regretting certain past partners...


Are you trying to say that self control cannot be taught? That is a rather ridiculous notion.

Indeed. Sex is not a reflex, even if it's natural, it's a choice.
Also, I completely agree with OrphanPip.

Why is it that some people put so much value on experience? Just because someone has experience doesn't necessarily make them any good. And really, it's not that complicated...you'd swear it's like flying a bloody jumbo jet.

[Revolte]

Why is it that some people put so much value on experience? Just because someone has experience doesn't necessarily make them any good. And really, it's not that complicated...you'd swear it's like flying a bloody jumbo jet.

hahaha. I agree with that. But it's the same old "practice makes perfect" idea that brings that into play. If you ask me it's more like riding a horse, some people, no matter how many times they try, are just no good at it.

[ktm5124]

We cannot ignore the fact that so many matrimonial ties break up specially but in less developed economies they turn out well. The reason is man meets his expectations and hopes in his wife and there is a little renunciation or self-denial. Women try to maintain chastity and this becomes a testimony of her feminist temperament.


Whoa whoa whoa, there. It is quite a loaded statement to say (or imply) that marriages function better in less developed economies. If you're talking about countries where divorce is forbidden by the prevailing religion, then you can't really say whether those marriages turn out well or not. Also, in marriages where the wife is subjugated, well, it's not as if the wife's voice is even heard in the first place...



Of course woman too expects her husband to be loyal yet the trustiness of woman is a greater virtue, an asset that sustains her significance. That is why chastity or faithfulness has always propped up wedded family members in the eastern world and there comes a tad distortion in these values over time as there is more global integration everywhere as people trade not only in merchandise with global but also values and cultures.


I don't understand this at all - you're saying that a wife's fidelity sustains her significance? as in, she has to prove herself in order to be significant? This seems like a gross debasement of human worth.



I of course grew up in such a cultural setup and my ideas of chastity; fidelity is built around this ideology.


If you grew up elsewhere - let's say, if you grew up in America (and, let's make things interesting) under the roof of a Jewish family, would you still arrive at the same ideas regarding chastity?



Today we venerate feminism and feminine activism is a norm and they raise high-pitched voices for woman’s emancipation even in developing economies and the female league is so powerful now that there is a reversal of the age-old value. A widow is getting social recognition, and of course gradually family recognition too.


I don't think it's the case that we venerate feminism, at least not in America. A lot of people are actually starting to get tired of it, especially when it comes to things like affirmative action, etc. Feminism has actually become the butt of a lot of jokes here in the States.

I personally think that while there is such a thing as "misdirected feminism," it is still indeed an important issue in America. And then it is quite blatantly a global issue, but this is complicated by religion.

It is hard to argue against the subjugation of women by a religion, because then you have to argue against that religion. However, consider this - the world's most developed countries are the countries that offer women the most equality. Is this just coincidence? Or is it that sound government dictates sound policy?


I'm going to have to agree with Bien on this. We should be promoting delayed sexual initiation in kids, but we have to make sure to do it in the proper way. I don't think teaching kids that sex is bad is the way to go though, I think responsible behavior will follow naturally from teaching the risks and responsibilities that come along with sex.

As to adults, whether they want to remain a virgin or not is their personal business and I don't think it means much if someone is a virgin or not. Looking for sexual experience in a partner is probably indicative of a bad attitude towards relationships to begin with.

Well, you can't delay it any longer than college. When kids go to college, they're going to have sex, and there's no stopping it. It's better to focus on preparing kids for the freedom they'll have in college.

I believe that the "fast crowd" these days is starting to have sex around the ages of 13-15, at least in the suburbs. In poor, inner-city neighborhoods it's even younger - perhaps 11-13. And even if you're not in the "fast crowd," the average suburban high school student probably has sex before he or she leaves high school.

I don't think that kids having sex between the ages of 13-15 is a problem in itself. I think it's the symptom of a problem. For one, it is the symptom of bad parenting. And by "bad parenting," I don't mean to say that parents aren't giving a good enough "sex talk". I mean to say that parents are not teaching their kids to think for themselves as intelligent beings.

The early age of the "fast crowd" is also a symptom of problems in public education. Schools, like parents, should teach kids to think for themselves, to be intelligent beings. They detain our kids for all of twelve years - they ought to teach them something!

But the media is not to blame. There always have been, and always will be, pernicious external forces. Back in the 20th century there was Hitler. I'd take the media over Hitler any day.


Are you trying to say that self control cannot be taught? That is a rather ridiculous notion.

You have to keep in mind that the reason sex has historically come at a later age is because of religion. And historically, religion has repressed people. Perhaps it is most natural to have sex at the age people today are having it. Perhaps this is the natural consequence of relieving Western repression.

I don't think that the virtue of self-control applies so much to the sex drive as it applies to other things. It certainly applies to things like saving money, eating healthily, not partying too much, etc., but these things do not present us with hormones and impulses, programmed into our bodies, that say otherwise. When it comes to sex, I think your idea of self control is repression.

[dizzydoll]

I don't think it's the case that we venerate feminism, at least not in America. A lot of people are actually starting to get tired of it, especially when it comes to things like affirmative action, etc. Feminism has actually become the butt of a lot of jokes here in the States.

I really dont care two hoots how many men refer to my "freedom" from their control, as the butt end of their jokes... THEY dont count in my life nor many other women's lives who have been denied freedom, from the beginning of time. No-one will take away our choice to freedom... not ever.

But more importantly, your daughters and grand daughters are free now to educate themselves, travel on their own, decide if and when they will have kids.. or marry at all. These days your daughters and grand daughters could even be successful leaders and decision makers of any country in the future if they wish.

As far as the media is concerned, I disagree with you there too as my earlier post states.



Indeed. Sex is not a reflex, even if it's natural, it's a choice.
Also, I completely agree with OrphanPip.

Precious little is known about this complex organ called the brain, but psychologists do know that a child's brain is only fully developed at 21 years old. The last part of the brain to develop is its reasoning ability and judgement, this is why the law is strict in making parents responsible for their child's behavior. Its very difficult cos kids play with fire without their parents being aware of it.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Well its no good getting tired of the truth my dear. Magazines with their airbrushing and touch ups, Television and Movies with violence and sexual visuals mislead the kids into what is real and what is not, what is acceptable and what is not. So I am sick and tired of it, due to this I dont buy the magazines anymore, I dont watch the television or movies for that matter. If more people stopped buying into this Media-BS the world WOULD be a much better place. So yea, I will continue to state that I blame the Media and have as much contempt for them, [who are only interested in their back pockets] as I do for drugs that cause as much damage to our fledglings.

You know for all societies intellectual abilities, stupidity escapes us not. We eat poison and we feed our kids poison on every level imaginable. Very very stupid. As for parents, they cant be there all the time... you and I know ALL kids do what they should not. Try to imagine the world without Magazines, its looking better already... to me.

Of course all those things are present, the airbrushing and whatnot, but is it not the responsibility of the parents to teach their kids that that's fake? Of course we see things about others that we envy, but one should always know that when these things are found on magazine covers they're simply not real. And to say that television and movies are the primary source of values and practices is irresponsible. Yes, the media is an ever-fixed presence, but it's my firm belief that young people only turn to it as a source of guidance when guidance from a more appropriate source is lacking.

You've said that if people stop buying into media BS, we'd be better off. You blame the media as though it's inescapable, but then you say we should stop buying in. That's what I'm saying- it's not the media's fault, it's our own for falling for it.


Blaze's culture, even if more liberal these days, is still more conservative than yours, which I assume is Western. So in some cultures it's "embarrassing" and in other's it's not. Anyway, I think it's narrowminded of people to treat others like weirdos for waiting. Even if your friend became a forty year old virgin, what iffenrece would that make? It's good that she's waiting for someone special or the right circumstances instead of just doing it and regretting certain past partners...

Oh, I wasn't in any way criticizing Blaze's culture, I'm simply comparing it to my own, which is indeed western. I agree with you completely about treating others like weirdos for waiting- it's said that being a virgin in western culture now seems to have a bad stigma attached to it. And I agree that she's right in waiting instead of throwing it away. I was simply putting the situation to men of western culture who say that they wouldn't want to be with a virgin- I wanted to know if the circumstances have an effect on that opinion.

[dizzydoll]

Of course all those things are present, the airbrushing and whatnot, but is it not the responsibility of the parents to teach their kids that that's fake? Of course we see things about others that we envy, but one should always know that when these things are found on magazine covers they're simply not real. And to say that television and movies are the primary source of values and practices is irresponsible. Yes, the media is an ever-fixed presence, but it's my firm belief that young people only turn to it as a source of guidance when guidance from a more appropriate source is lacking.

In reference to what I have bolded... wow, I cant believe anyone would believe that.

As to the rest of your comment quoted above, perhaps you didnt see my earlier comment [below] explaining that kids dont have a capacity to discernment at such young ages, like 13 years old.

Precious little is known about this complex organ called the brain, but psychologists do know that a child's brain is only fully developed at 21 years old. The last part of the brain to develop is its reasoning ability and judgement, this is why the law is strict in making parents responsible for their child's behavior. Its very difficult cos kids play with fire without their parents being aware of it.

No sweat, we agree to disagree.

[*Classic*Charm*]

In reference to what I have bolded... wow, I cant believe anyone would believe that.

Why? If you don't mind explaining :)



As to the rest of your comment quoted above, perhaps you didnt see my earlier comment [below] explaining that kids dont have a capacity to discernment at such young ages, like 13 years old.

What do mean they don't have a capacity for discernment? Are you saying that they aren't capable of figuring out that the images presented by the media are fake? That's simply emphasizes my point- they can't figure it out, so their parents should teach them that it's fake. Otherwise, how will they know?

[dizzydoll]

I think you are a tad too idealistic which is understandable at your age. Since when do children listen to their parents? Most of them, including me when I was growing up, felt our parents were just old fossils who were not up to speed with modern society.

And as I said earlier, there is more than enough proof that childrens brains are only fully developed at 21 years old... again the last part of the brains development is their judgement and reasoning abilities and since their parents are not with them 24/7 they are exposed to a lot more than can be explained every day of their lives.

The media is bombarding everyone with BS all day every day, even parents are sucked into it and many times dont make the correct choices for themselves, especially when it comes to what they eat and feed their families -- let alone much else. How many women would love a face lift? I wonder where on earth the notion came from that surgery can make them stay young forever? This is just the tip of the iceberg.....

[*Classic*Charm*]

My age is not an excuse for anything. Seeing as the world isn't quitein a state of complete anarchy, I'm going to say that to some extent, children must be at the very least following the moral guidelines outlined by their parents. That's not to say that when parents say "Johnny, you're not allowed to have sex until you're 20", Johnny's going to follow that. But I think for the most part parents are teaching their kids that sex is something to be taken fairly seriously, that precautions should be taken, etc. Something must be sticking, seeing as we're not all knocked up by the time we're 16, no?

I'm not arguing with your numbers for when the brain can be considered fully developed, but it doesn't go from having no judgment before that time to being fully mature when that day comes. Some reasonable judgement is present, which is why, at least in the west, sexual education begins around age 10. And since we're talking about sex in this thread, that seems to be something worth considering, does it not?

If children are being taught starting from the age of 10 by their school and even moreso their parents that their virtue is something to be taken seriously, should that not be enough to combat the pressure of the media, who is less of a constant influence?

[dizzydoll]

I sense you have a good heart Charm and in no way was I underestimating you by your age, not at all. I hope I didnt come across like that. I encourage the youth and am proud of their accomplishments. Young people are our future and you would make a good mum I am sure.

[TurquoiseSunset]

Precious little is known about this complex organ called the brain, but psychologists do know that a child's brain is only fully developed at 21 years old. The last part of the brain to develop is its reasoning ability and judgement, this is why the law is strict in making parents responsible for their child's behavior. Its very difficult cos kids play with fire without their parents being aware of it.

Yip, I know about that, but like I said, it's not a reflex but a choice. So I have to agree with Classic Charm in that even when their brains aren't fully developed yet "some reasonable judgement is present". Sometimes they might be blinded by hormones and brain changes, but not always. Anyway, as adults we still make mistakes and bad judgement calls.


Of course all those things are present, the airbrushing and whatnot, but is it not the responsibility of the parents to teach their kids that that's fake? Of course we see things about others that we envy, but one should always know that when these things are found on magazine covers they're simply not real. And to say that television and movies are the primary source of values and practices is irresponsible. Yes, the media is an ever-fixed presence, but it's my firm belief that young people only turn to it as a source of guidance when guidance from a more appropriate source is lacking.

I completely agree.


Oh, I wasn't in any way criticizing Blaze's culture, I'm simply comparing it to my own, which is indeed western. I agree with you completely about treating others like weirdos for waiting- it's said that being a virgin in western culture now seems to have a bad stigma attached to it. And I agree that she's right in waiting instead of throwing it away. I was simply putting the situation to men of western culture who say that they wouldn't want to be with a virgin- I wanted to know if the circumstances have an effect on that opinion.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were criticizing Blaze's culture AND I misunderstood what you said there anyway :D. Anyhoo, only the first two sentences was directed at you, and the rest was my general opnion on your friend's story. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.


My age is not an excuse for anything. Seeing as the world isn't quitein a state of complete anarchy, I'm going to say that to some extent, children must be at the very least following the moral guidelines outlined by their parents. That's not to say that when parents say "Johnny, you're not allowed to have sex until you're 20", Johnny's going to follow that. But I think for the most part parents are teaching their kids that sex is something to be taken fairly seriously, that precautions should be taken, etc. Something must be sticking, seeing as we're not all knocked up by the time we're 16, no?

I'm not arguing with your numbers for when the brain can be considered fully developed, but it doesn't go from having no judgment before that time to being fully mature when that day comes. Some reasonable judgement is present, which is why, at least in the west, sexual education begins around age 10. And since we're talking about sex in this thread, that seems to be something worth considering, does it not?

If children are being taught starting from the age of 10 by their school and even moreso their parents that their virtue is something to be taken seriously, should that not be enough to combat the pressure of the media, who is less of a constant influence?

I totally agree with this as well. I believe parents' example and how they raise their kids are more influential than the media. At least it's my experience and what I see around me.