Chemtrail Flights Radio Tracked in England

[Musicology]

I post this because the people of England are fed up with dozens, hundreds of planes dropping material in trails above populated areas every day. For years. With absolutely no public admission of them taking place. These flights are seen daily with the exception of a few days ago when flights were banned over British airspace because of the Icelandic volcano dust. The mass media simply refuse to acknowledge the fact of it. A number of British people are determined the public should see this. Here is one of the first attempts to monitor radio communications as these flights take place.

Taken in Kent, S.E. England -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZgJKQagSMo&feature=PlayList&p=F80F4092A5C43B34&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=33

The audio begins around 1 minute after the start.

[OrphanPip]

Is there any ridiculous conspiracy theory you don't believe in?

[Satan]

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4024/tinfoilhatw.jpg


For the curious: It's an M Night Shyamalan movie.

[Musicology]

Yes, but this is not one of them. The facts are right in front of us. Which part of it is theory ? Do tell us. Free your mind and think.


Is there any ridiculous conspiracy theory you don't believe in?

[papayahed]

See I have to believe that the people who are supposedly doing this would be smart enough to disperse things in the air without anybody noticing...Why not do it at night?

On a side note there is a bunch of farm land near my workplace. The owner/farmer/whoever uses a crop duster. It's crazy, the crop duster gets so low to the ground it's unbelievable. It's fascinating to watch him but I always cringe when he's doing his turns and dives. I'm always thinging I'm going to hear a boom and see smoke..

[dizzydoll]

http://www.skepticwiki.org/index.php/Chemtrails

[Lokasenna]

The simple answer to this (and pretty much every other consipracy theory) is to ask why? What possible reason could the governments of the world have for secretly burying their hatchets and spending a lot of time and money to shower the denizens of the world in freaky chemicals? It's just not rational.

[JuniperWoolf]

See I have to believe that the people who are supposedly doing this would be smart enough to disperse things in the air without anybody noticing...Why not do it at night?

Well really, if you were going to poison the general population, why the hell would you use planes in the first place? Wouldn't it be a lot easier and more discreet to just spike the water or something?

[DanielBenoit]

Oh boy another fun thread :D


Is there any ridiculous conspiracy theory you don't believe in?

Don't forget! 9/11 was an inside job, Clinton was a serial killer, AIDS was created by the CIA and the commies are contaminating our water!

For more information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY

[MarkBastable]

How do the people who are organising the dispersal of this stuff avoid the effects of it?

[Musicology]

There are MANY documented flights of chemtrail spraying at night. It can be compared to a 'blitz' of chemtrails. Daily. It's not unusual to have as many as 20 chemtrails in the sky across the London area on most days.

Here are just a few examples of night spraying -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpFLtXc9ZSY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZGCUyst6OI&feature=related


See I have to believe that the people who are supposedly doing this would be smart enough to disperse things in the air without anybody noticing...Why not do it at night?

On a side note there is a bunch of farm land near my workplace. The owner/farmer/whoever uses a crop duster. It's crazy, the crop duster gets so low to the ground it's unbelievable. It's fascinating to watch him but I always cringe when he's doing his turns and dives. I'm always thinging I'm going to hear a boom and see smoke..

I don't see the 'fun'. This subject is obviously not for you. Read another thread perhaps ?


Oh boy another fun thread :D



Don't forget! 9/11 was an inside job, Clinton was a serial killer, AIDS was created by the CIA and the commies are contaminating our water!

For more information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY

We don't know. It's happening in plain sight. So that leaves us two choices. Ignore them altogether or agree they are happening. The mass media says nothing about them. So, which is the mature, correct reaction to these facts ? Let's just ignore them ? Like everyone else.

I can tell you that during last week, when there were almost no planes flying in Britain, the skies were completely clear. Brilliant blue. With some small clouds. The best weather for the last 10 years, at least. 2 days after flights returned the normal sky is pale. With dozens of chemtrail flights each day over London.

Does that matter ? It's a question each person must decide. But they ARE happening. That is a plain fact.


Well really, if you were going to poison the general population, why the hell would you use planes in the first place? Wouldn't it be a lot easier and more discreet to just spike the water or something?

[Lokasenna]

We don't know. It's happening in plain sight. So that leaves us two choices. Ignore them altogether or agree they are happening. The mass media says nothing about them. So, which is the mature, correct reaction to these facts ? Let's just ignore them ? Like everyone else.

I can tell you that during last week, when there were almost no planes flying in Britain, the skies were completely clear. Brilliant blue. With some small clouds. The best weather for the last 10 years, at least. 2 days after flights returned the normal sky is pale. With dozens of chemtrail flights each day over London.

Does that matter ? It's a question each person must decide. But they ARE happening. That is a plain fact.

Global dimming, as partly caused by airplane contrails, is a highly persuasive theory (I avoid using the word 'fact', because it is only a theory, but the evidence is strong), and one I am inclined to accept.

But that is a natural effect created by the contrails that are an accepted product of an airplane's engines reacting with water molecules in the atmosphere. They aren't bizarre substances - they are simply a natural phenomenon. Indeed, there is some suggestion that contrails could be used to combat the effects of global warming, though I'm a little uncertain of that myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming

[Musicology]

These planes are NOT commercial jet aircraft. That's fact number 1. They are unmarked planes which operate from large and small airports. They criss-cross across areas that are not used by commercial jet airliner companies. They fly far lower than commercial jet airliners. They spray day and night. You cannot possibly have missed them. They are literally in every sky in the United Kingdom. They are there day, after day, after day. They are able to switch off and switch on their spraying. They spray even when there are no clouds. The effects of these sprays can often be seen from horizon to horizon.

They are not con-trails and anyone who is still confused only needs to ask anyone who grew up in the 60's, 70's and 80's. These are trails of chemical substances - beyond any fair and reasonable doubt. And they are happening right in front of your nose on a massive, global scale. So let's cut the crap. These flights are deliberate acts of spraying chemicals on the landmasses. And they are no longer disputed as occurring very widely.

The effect of this 'blitz' on England has been linked to the decline of bees and other insects. For years. There is ZERO public recognition of these massively costly flights taking place. They are taboo subjects. And they are occurring widely in the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. In Germany they are a documented, plain, indisputable fact. There is, in fact, no 'conspiracy' theory about them. They are spraying chemicals which, within hours, alter the quality of the air above us. As we can see daily after a whole week of clear skies.

Since the time when flights began again you can see their effect. Today (this morning) no less than 9 flights of them seen here in S.E. England in less than 2 hours.

Now, we have two choices. To simply ignore the fact of them or to make the public aware of them. But let us not bury our heads in the sand to their reality.

That is my point and it's time that some answers were forthcoming for the public who, beyond doubt, is paying for this nonsense.

90% of the population choose to be ignorant of them. That's not my problem.




Global dimming, as partly caused by airplane contrails, is a highly persuasive theory (I avoid using the word 'fact', because it is only a theory, but the evidence is strong), and one I am inclined to accept.

But that is a natural effect created by the contrails that are an accepted product of an airplane's engines reacting with water molecules in the atmosphere. They aren't bizarre substances - they are simply a natural phenomenon. Indeed, there is some suggestion that contrails could be used to combat the effects of global warming, though I'm a little uncertain of that myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming

[papayahed]

They are spraying chemicals which, within hours, alter the quality of the air above us. As we can see daily after a whole week of clear skies.

.......

[Musicology]

Yes, these ARE chemicals which often obscure the sky within hours of being laid.

As you can see for yourself. There is no longer a debate about their existence. There is only plain fact. There are people in every country who are examining these things. And have been, for years.

Chemtrails
Poisons in the Water Supply
Mass Vaccinations
Codex Alimentarius and Genetically Modified Foods

What do all of these have in common ? They have in common the fact that they are hazardous for human life. For nature. And for the wellbeing of our planet. And all of them are real, happening, and plain fact.



They are spraying chemicals which, within hours, alter the quality of the air above us. As we can see daily after a whole week of clear skies.

[papayahed]

What I was trying to say above about chemicals being in the air:



This is very easy to test you can do air monitoring to test out this theory. There are small private companies that can do this for you or you can do it yourself. If I was you I'd do like two or three samples at a time and send them to several different labs for corroboration. You will also need to make sure you test on enough clear days to ensure you have good baseline data.

[MarkBastable]

Okay - but how do the people who are organising the dispersal of this stuff by aeroplane avoid the effects of it themselves?

[papayahed]

Oh and if you can give me an idea of what type of chemicals you think are being dispersed I can help pick out the collection media.

[Musicology]

It is enough for us to all know, and be in no doubt that chemicals are being sprayed internationally, by unmarked planes. And that these are NOT contrails.

I think that message is now clear, unambiguous, and is a verifiable fact confirmed by literally thousands of proofs.

[Emil Miller]

Never one to automatically go with the herd I seldom dismiss something out of hand but, even if what you and others say about these trails is true, what purpose do you ascribe to them?

[papayahed]

It is enough for us to all know, and be in no doubt that chemicals are being sprayed internationally, by unmarked planes. And that these are NOT contrails.

I think that message is now clear, unambiguous, and is a verifiable fact confirmed by literally thousands of proofs.


No, we don't all know anything until you can prove elevated chemical levels in the atmosphere during/shortly after chemtrails. Now how about that testing?

[Lokasenna]

Sigh... here we go... and its a measure of how bored I am at the moment that I'm even bothering to answer you...


These planes are NOT commercial jet aircraft. That's fact number 1.

Is it? You can identify them from ground level, can you? They certainly aren't military craft, I can assure you of that. And, as someone who has previously done work for Airbus, I can assure you that the waiting list for new planes for commercial groups is too large for us to manufacture passenger planes for anyone else without an uproar!


They criss-cross across areas that are not used by commercial jet airliner companies. They fly far lower than commercial jet airliners. They spray day and night. You cannot possibly have missed them. They are literally in every sky in the United Kingdom. They are there day, after day, after day.

Apparently I have missed them. I don't get many planes passing over head here, and all of them seem to be at the same height. The only exception is military aircraft, but I do only live a short way from an RAF base, so that makes sense.


They are able to switch off and switch on their spraying. They spray even when there are no clouds. The effects of these sprays can often be seen from horizon to horizon.

Irrelevant. There is always moisture in the atmosphere, and it is its interaction with the engines that forms vapour trails.


They are not con-trails and anyone who is still confused only needs to ask anyone who grew up in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

What exactly am I supposed to ask them? I've gone with "those things you see coming out of plains - they're vapour trails, right?" I've had an affirmative answer from those to hand. I should also point out that my father is an aerospace engineer, whose most notable success was designing Concord's fuel pumps - trust me, the man knows basically everything there is to know about airplane engines.


So let's cut the crap.

Please.


These flights are deliberate acts of spraying chemicals on the landmasses. And they are no longer disputed as occurring very widely.

As to the first bit, let me see some proof - prefferably not from one of your lunatic websites. As to the second part, I'm not sure what you're saying - are you saying that, in our modern, globalised world of mass-transport, it is suspicious that there are lots of aircraft up there?


The effect of this 'blitz' on England has been linked to the decline of bees and other insects. For years.

Proof please!


There is ZERO public recognition of these massively costly flights taking place. They are taboo subjects.

In a time when climate change is the main topic of debate, you are suggesting that people from all areas of society aren't rigourously examining the airline industry? Or have Greenpeace been bought off as well?


In Germany they are a documented, plain, indisputable fact.

Where?


They are spraying chemicals which, within hours, alter the quality of the air above us. As we can see daily after a whole week of clear skies.

The sky was brighter, to be sure - I've already stated that global dimming is a mostly recognized phenomenon. The air quality is the same, apart from a bit more CO2 and some ice crystals.


Since the time when flights began again you can see their effect. Today (this morning) no less than 9 flights of them seen here in S.E. England in less than 2 hours.

According to your location, you're in London, which puts you in the proximity of Heathrow, Stansted and Gatwick - three massively busy airports, the first of which is recognized as the world's busiest. And you're surprised you have a lot of planes flying overhead? Here in Wales, I've been sitting by this computer all day, trying to write, and staring out the window when inspiration doesn't come - I haven't seen a single plane, nor is there any evidence of a vapour trail in the sky that I can see.


That is my point and it's time that some answers were forthcoming for the public who, beyond doubt, is paying for this nonsense.


Again, at a time when government spending is under huge scrutiny, you think the cost of having dozens of planes flying near constantly would be missed by the independent financial bodies that are coming down hard on waste?

[Musicology]

{Edit} I repeat that these are NOT commercial flights. They are unmarked flights. Do a Google search for Chemtrails and see how many links you find. Do a Youtube search for Chemtrails and see how much film evidence you find.
There are over 1,380,000 links to 'Chemtrails' on Google

There are over 900 Youtube clips of 'Chemtrails' on Youtube

Start there.

{Edit}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpYBIb5Ax_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1AjUNUZ1j0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1AjUNUZ1j0&feature=related


Thank You





Sigh... here we go... and its a measure of how bored I am at the moment that I'm even bothering to answer you...



Is it? You can identify them from ground level, can you? They certainly aren't military craft, I can assure you of that. And, as someone who has previously done work for Airbus, I can assure you that the waiting list for new planes for commercial groups is too large for us to manufacture passenger planes for anyone else without an uproar!



Apparently I have missed them. I don't get many planes passing over head here, and all of them seem to be at the same height. The only exception is military aircraft, but I do only live a short way from an RAF base, so that makes sense.



Irrelevant. There is always moisture in the atmosphere, and it is its interaction with the engines that forms vapour trails.



What exactly am I supposed to ask them? I've gone with "those things you see coming out of plains - they're vapour trails, right?" I've had an affirmative answer from those to hand. I should also point out that my father is an aerospace engineer, whose most notable success was designing Concord's fuel pumps - trust me, the man knows basically everything there is to know about airplane engines.



Please.



As to the first bit, let me see some proof - prefferably not from one of your lunatic websites. As to the second part, I'm not sure what you're saying - are you saying that, in our modern, globalised world of mass-transport, it is suspicious that there are lots of aircraft up there?



Proof please!



In a time when climate change is the main topic of debate, you are suggesting that people from all areas of society aren't rigourously examining the airline industry? Or have Greenpeace been bought off as well?



Where?



The sky was brighter, to be sure - I've already stated that global dimming is a mostly recognized phenomenon. The air quality is the same, apart from a bit more CO2 and some ice crystals.



According to your location, you're in London, which puts you in the proximity of Heathrow, Stansted and Gatwick - three massively busy airports, the first of which is recognized as the world's busiest. And you're surprised you have a lot of planes flying overhead? Here in Wales, I've been sitting by this computer all day, trying to write, and staring out the window when inspiration doesn't come - I haven't seen a single plane, nor is there any evidence of a vapour trail in the sky that I can see.



Again, at a time when government spending is under huge scrutiny, you think the cost of having dozens of planes flying near constantly would be missed by the independent financial bodies that are coming down hard on waste?

[Hurricane]

The evidence you've presented consists of:
-A youtube video of boring, average sounding ATC conversation. Even the guy who posted it changed most of his comments and realized most of what he thought was nefarious was really just due to an unfamiliarity with aviation.
-Personal Anecdotes: "There were lots of planes in the sky, then the weather changed!"
Forgive me, but neither of these are convincing.

Contrails are a generally accepted aftereffect of the hot exhaust from a jet engine meeting the much cooler air and forming condensation. For propeller aicraft, they can be not only from this, but from the wingtip vortex effect from their propellers. Paths through clouds are known as "distrails" (dissipation trails) and are created by the heated exhaust absorbing cloud moisture.

This video show some good condensation and contrails (plus it features the F-14 Tomcat, one my all-time favorite aircraft.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw9MjutMhLs
The trails from the wingtip (wingtip vortices) are from differing effects of temperature and pressure as the wing generates lift. This can also be seen in this picture:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/FA-18C_vapor_LEX_and_wingtip_1.jpg/120px-FA-18C_vapor_LEX_and_wingtip_1.jpg

(Picture is tiny because the original is ginormous and I don't feel like making it smaller right now.)

Also, why would anyone conduct drops from that height? Most chemical drops (firefighting, crop dusting, etc) are conducted at a low level in order to make their effects felt much more.
This video from operation Ranch Hand shows the sort of elevation that US aircraft flew at to deliver Agent Orange:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1djDlO2RZ1U
It's a little hard to see at the beginning, but in the side shot you can see that the aircraft is flying at several hundred feet at the most.
If one was to drop a chemical from any significant height, which it seems most "chemtrail" enthusiasts believe, it would be hopelessly dissipated and probably way off course at it fell to the ground. It's a pretty ineffective way to poison people.
And, on "unmarked planes"...If a commercial airliner is flying overhead at 30k feet, you probably won't be able to tell what its markings are. I'd wager that anything above 15k feet, it'd be hard or near impossible to tell. My school's under the flight path for BWI, and the only way we can tell what airline is flying above us is because it's Southwest (bright purple/orange 737s) and they fly pretty low (probably 5-10k).

Also, think about where you live. For example: you'd probably freak out if you lived at my house, since there's tons of contrails up there. However, that's because I live under the flightpath for Logan Airport in Boston. Even though that's over 50 miles away, I still see a lot of flight activity over my house.
By extension, of course there's going to be a ton of contrails over London, there's a huge international airport near there.

Number of Google hits or Youtube videos is not evidence. There are 500 videos on Youtube of cats pooping into toilets, and I'm pretty sure that represents nothing significant.*


*DISCLAIMER: This is not usually what I search for, but I thought of the most random thing I could and decided to check for it.

[applepie]

According to the national weather service:

To answer this question, lets first identify what a contrail is. A contrail is the condensation trail that is left behind by a passing jet plane. Contrails form when hot humid air from jet exhaust mixes with environmental air of low vapor pressure and low temperature. Vapor pressure is just a fancy term for the amount of pressure that is exerted by water vapor itself (as opposed to atmospheric, or barometric, pressure which is due to the weight of the entire atmosphere above you). The mixing occurs directly behind the plane due to the turbulence generated by the engine. If condensation (conversion from a gas to a liquid) occurs, then a contrail becomes visible. Since air temperatures at these high atmospheric levels are very cold (generally colder than -40 F), only a small amount of liquid is necessary for condensation to occur. Water is a normal byproduct of combustion in engines.

I have to say it makes a lot more sense that governments, around the world mind you :toetap05:, conspiring to drop chemicals on an unseuspecting populous. Let's also take into account that it isn't only the government, but it is also encompassing the airline industry. Oh yeah, and we'll not forget that anyone with a private jet, or any sort of a plane without props for propulsion are in on it as well. The entire thing sounds a bit ridiculous to me, but I'll confess I'm curious about what illogical conspiracy theory you'll post about next. I hadn't even heard of this one until you posted it. The whole world seems to have gone crazy and the government is controlling all the people mentioned above with mind probes stolen from the aliens :willy_nilly:

[Lokasenna]

I note with interest that you haven't answered a single one of my points. Furthermore, you have provided me with no proof.

If I type in 'Father Christmas' on Google, I get over 44 million results - does this prove he exists? He also get 11,700 hits on Youtube.

As for the videos, video camera footage of vapour trails is no proof - the fact that it has the voiceover from Half-Life 2 does nothing for its credibilty either. That, by no ones yardstick, qualifies as video evidence.


Has a generation more stupid ever existed in this world ??

If you are endeavouring to insult me, then believe me when I say you will incur the wrath of the moderators long before you incur mine. It really isn't worth it.

[Musicology]

Yes, Father Christmas has 44 million hits. You believe in Father Christmas, don't you ?

And 11,700 hits on Youtube confirms that he is believed by many people.

The difference is that you have been presented filmed, actual, documented evidence of chemical trails being created by unmarked aircraft. Haven't you. Which do not disappear within seconds (as contrails do). And contrails do not turn clear skies in to murky skies, do they ? But chemtrails do.

No, it's not a case of incuring the wrath of moderators. It's a simple case of your eyes firmly shut to the clearest possible evidence of facts.

Why insult you when you are so determined to insult yourself ?


I note with interest that you haven't answered a single one of my points. Furthermore, you have provided me with no proof.

If I type in 'Father Christmas' on Google, I get over 44 million results - does this prove he exists? He also get 11,700 hits on Youtube.

As for the videos, video camera footage of vapour trails is no proof - the fact that it has the voiceover from Half-Life 2 does nothing for its credibilty either. That, by no ones yardstick, qualifies as video evidence.



If you are endeavouring to insult me, then believe me when I say you will incur the wrath of the moderators long before you incur mine. It really isn't worth it.

Mkhockenberry,

Contrails disappear in seconds. Chemtrails do not. Show us some contrails which remain in the sky for minutes and hours.

Contrails can be compared with chemtrails in the same film footage.

Here is an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEFITGpXwZk

and here is another -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrN3QPnQUqo&feature=related

and here is still another -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRnT-NXGIPI&feature=related

Please provide contrary evidence and then we will be equal in terms of evidence. That's a fair and reasonable request, isn't it ?





According to the national weather service:


I have to say it makes a lot more sense that governments, around the world mind you :toetap05:, conspiring to drop chemicals on an unseuspecting populous. Let's also take into account that it isn't only the government, but it is also encompassing the airline industry. Oh yeah, and we'll not forget that anyone with a private jet, or any sort of a plane without props for propulsion are in on it as well. The entire thing sounds a bit ridiculous to me, but I'll confess I'm curious about what illogical conspiracy theory you'll post about next. I hadn't even heard of this one until you posted it. The whole world seems to have gone crazy and the government is controlling all the people mentioned above with mind probes stolen from the aliens :willy_nilly:

Hurricane has produced a single, still image of a con-trail. LOL :nod:

How about showing us some actual video of a contrail ? So that we can all see if it remains in the sky for minutes and hours. As chemtrails so often do.

Agreed ?

In the meantime -

Contrails can already be compared with chemtrails in the same film footage.

Here is an example from many hundreds of cases -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEFITGpXwZk

and here is another -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrN3Q...eature=related

and here is still another -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRnT-...eature=related


The evidence you've presented consists of:
-A youtube video of boring, average sounding ATC conversation. Even the guy who posted it changed most of his comments and realized most of what he thought was nefarious was really just due to an unfamiliarity with aviation.
-Personal Anecdotes: "There were lots of planes in the sky, then the weather changed!"
Forgive me, but neither of these are convincing.

Contrails are a generally accepted aftereffect of the hot exhaust from a jet engine meeting the much cooler air and forming condensation. For propeller aicraft, they can be not only from this, but from the wingtip vortex effect from their propellers. Paths through clouds are known as "distrails" (dissipation trails) and are created by the heated exhaust absorbing cloud moisture.

This video show some good condensation and contrails (plus it features the F-14 Tomcat, one my all-time favorite aircraft.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw9MjutMhLs
The trails from the wingtip (wingtip vortices) are from differing effects of temperature and pressure as the wing generates lift. This can also be seen in this picture:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/FA-18C_vapor_LEX_and_wingtip_1.jpg/120px-FA-18C_vapor_LEX_and_wingtip_1.jpg

(Picture is tiny because the original is ginormous and I don't feel like making it smaller right now.)

Also, why would anyone conduct drops from that height? Most chemical drops (firefighting, crop dusting, etc) are conducted at a low level in order to make their effects felt much more.
This video from operation Ranch Hand shows the sort of elevation that US aircraft flew at to deliver Agent Orange:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1djDlO2RZ1U
It's a little hard to see at the beginning, but in the side shot you can see that the aircraft is flying at several hundred feet at the most.
If one was to drop a chemical from any significant height, which it seems most "chemtrail" enthusiasts believe, it would be hopelessly dissipated and probably way off course at it fell to the ground. It's a pretty ineffective way to poison people.
And, on "unmarked planes"...If a commercial airliner is flying overhead at 30k feet, you probably won't be able to tell what its markings are. I'd wager that anything above 15k feet, it'd be hard or near impossible to tell. My school's under the flight path for BWI, and the only way we can tell what airline is flying above us is because it's Southwest (bright purple/orange 737s) and they fly pretty low (probably 5-10k).

Also, think about where you live. For example: you'd probably freak out if you lived at my house, since there's tons of contrails up there. However, that's because I live under the flightpath for Logan Airport in Boston. Even though that's over 50 miles away, I still see a lot of flight activity over my house.
By extension, of course there's going to be a ton of contrails over London, there's a huge international airport near there.

Number of Google hits or Youtube videos is not evidence. There are 500 videos on Youtube of cats pooping into toilets, and I'm pretty sure that represents nothing significant.*


*DISCLAIMER: This is not usually what I search for, but I thought of the most random thing I could and decided to check for it.

http://vodpod.com/watch/2647335-chemtrail-horror-like-wtf-part-1

http://vodpod.com/watch/2647750-chemtrail-horror-wtf-part-2

[papayahed]

Mod Note

Do not personalise your arguments.

Posts containing personal/inflammatory comments and/or showing intolerance towards others will be removed or edited without any further notice.

[Lokasenna]

Despite your lack of satisfactory answers on my previous points, let me make another:

You say that contrails disappear near instantly, while "chemtrails" hang around for ages, ostensibly for sinister means. According to my father, the amount of time that a vapour trail lasts, and the degree to which it disperses, are relative to the temperature of the air and the water content. Wind speed is also a factor, though the other two are the principle ones.

Just in case he is part of the conspiracy, I did have a glance on Google to see if anyone else agreed with him - they do, of course.

Since you seem determined to think of me as a child, have a play with my latest toy:

http://profhorn.aos.wisc.edu/wxwise/AckermanKnox/chap15/contrail_applet.html

[Musicology]

Lokasenna,

Here are the videos again - comparing contrails (which are short lived) with those which are definitely NOT short lived. There is a difference, isn't there ?

Contrails compared with chemtrails in the same film footage. Does it get more simple ?

Here is an example from many hundreds of cases -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEFITGpXwZk

and here is another case -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrN3Q...eature=related

and, just in case you still haven't seen it, here is still another -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRnT-...eature=related

Not forgetting cases like this -

http://vodpod.com/watch/2647335-chem...ike-wtf-part-1

http://vodpod.com/watch/2647750-chem...ror-wtf-part-2

Now, let's ask ourselves, which side of this discussion is providing actual verifiable, evidence and which side is not ? I think you have your answer. At least, it seems so to me.


/

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/B-17_Flying_Fortress.jpg



My father was a WW II fighter pilot (Lockheed P-38 Lightning) and I recall those glorious memories of high flying exploits he would share with me. He served in the Pacific theatre arriving somewhat late in the war. The allies had by that time gained air superiority which led to more “leisure” time in the air carrying out ground support missions and otherwise maintaining the peace in the air.

One story I recall involved a form of aerial tag or “follow the leader” shenanigans. The challenge was to follow a selected leader and see if you could hang onto to their tail. Of course the leader’s challenge was to utilize aerobatic maneuvers as well as clouds, in an attempt to shake loose the ones chasing.

Why am I sharing this? Well, there were times when this game would take them to such an altitude that contrails would develop thus creating a tell tale path to the leader. By the way, at lower altitudes “vapor trails” (instant clouds) would often form at wingtips for example, (see Hurricane’s F-14 Tomcat) that could give you away particularly in the humid environment of the Phillipines.
Mind you, when I say contrails, I am not talking about short lived trails that would dissipate soon after forming. Often times the contrails would remain in the sky for quite some time. It all depends on the atmospheric conditions at a given altitude.

I’m confident that the 100 octane aviation fuel they were pumping into the tanks of the P-38’s was not laden with some form of poisonous chemicals in an effort to wreak mass destruction. Keep in mind that this was 1944 through 1947.

It may be that what we are witnessing today is a deadly form of “chaff”. With the advent of radar just before the war and successfully implemented during the war, there was a need for a countermeasure. Soon it was realized that small strips of aluminum foil deposited form aircraft would interfere with the radar signals. “Chaff” was further developed into a fine aluminum powder and appeared as contrails when dumped out of the aircraft. It may be that your deadly chemical is actually a fine aluminum powder also known as “agent white”. There have been proven cases where aluminum powder has had deleterious affects on humans.

You may recall the movie; “The Wizard of Oz”. The actor Buddy Ebsen was originally slated to play the role of the Tin Man, but he nearly died from a severe allergic reaction to the aluminum powder used in his makeup.

Please scroll down to the “Wizard of Oz” segment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Ebsen

According to a neighbor who once worked at Boeing aircraft, the powder used on Buddy Ebsen was provided by Boeing. Boeing of course manufactured the B-17 Flying Fortress, B-29 Super Fortress, B-52 Strato Fortress, all three of which have utilized chaff as countermeasures during WW II, Korea and Viet Nam.


Here are a few videos showing the deposition of “agent white”:

Over Meopham in Kent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuDN4WNwmJ4&feature=related
The aircraft seen are likely Supermarine Spitfires or Hawker Hurricanes versus Messerschmitt BF 109’s or Focke Wulf 190.

A clip from a film about the famed B-17; “Memphis Belle”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfOrez6q7WM

Finally, modern footage showing two P-51 Mustangs laying down two trails of “Agent White”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFYzHfjTGtk&feature=related

Respectfully submitted,

Gilliatt

[papayahed]

Now, let's ask ourselves, which side of this discussion is providing actual verifiable, evidence and which side is not ?
/

Internet videos are not verifiable evidence. Now air monitoring on the other hande is pretty solid evidence.

[MarkBastable]

Thing is, Musicology, surely the people who are organising this are also poisoning themselves and their families?

[Lokasenna]

Now, let's ask ourselves, which side of this discussion is providing actual verifiable, evidence and which side is not ? I think you have your answer. At least, it seems so to me.


The model I've presented was devised by Profs. Steven Ackerman and John Knox, both of them eminent and respected meterologists, and who have published extensively.

Your evidence (and I use that term in its broadest possible sense) comes courtesy of 'Milne1990' and 'DanielofDoria,' amongst others. I'm sorry, but I know which source I'm more likely to trust.

Furthermore, you still haven't answered my points. I can only assume this is because you are unable to do so. Providing us with footage of planes producing vapour trails as proof of "chemtrails" is no more logical than showing us footage of a rainbow to prove there is a pot of gold at the end of it. You cannot provide an observable and explainable phenomenon as proof of something entirely different, simply on the grounds of resemblence.

[JuniperWoolf]

Thing is, Musicology, surely the people who are organising this are also poisoning themselves and their families?

Just for people who are keeping track, this would be the third time that she's ignored this point.

[applepie]

I've figured out the problem with thories like this. Lokasenna, you are right that the same evidence is being provided as evidence for both a theory of consipiracy and one of it being a perfectly natural phenomenon. Research has been done on the length of time that contrails can last. The only problem, and the reason that I've not put it here, is the research was conducted by the US Air Force which of course will bring us back to the validity of the source since it is a conspiracy perpetuated by the government *sigh*. There is no way to argue the point because any and all evidence will be suspect since the majority of research like this is conducted by the same people who are said to be using it to cover up more devious actions.

I can say that the government certainly does dump chemicals, if that is what you would like to refer to fuel as, but as far as dumping cheicals outside of those used in wars... I've yet to see any verifiable evidence, and as Papaya so blantantly put YouTube videos are far from proof. What I see is a contrail that may not be dissipating as quickly because of its density and other atmospheric conditions. The same condensed water vapor that makes up clouds is what makes up contrais. Musicology, can you show me evidence where clouds MUST dissipate after a couple of hours? Even cirrus clouds, which look remarkably similar to contrails in size and density, can last for days and weeks. Contrails are most frequently formed at the highest altitudes, so the water vapor can easily be expected to behave in a similar fasion.

[Musicology]

Lokasenna,

So, you have seen the following videos and you are still not convinced those aircraft are deliberately spraying material -

I will try one last time to show that, beyond reasonable doubt, these spraying operations are deliberate. That the material sprayed is not a naturally occurring contrail but is material being ejected deliberately. Able to be stopped and started by the pilot of the plane. From literally hundreds of examples (including letters of the alphabet being 'drawn' in the sky) etc.

'Contrails', my foot !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGBsqE_W2mQ&feature=related

Mkhockenberrry,

Since the making of trails in the sky by unmarked planes is a daily event above major cities worldwide, why are they NEVER refered to by mainstream media TV stations, newspapers, and politicians/governments ?

These unmarked planes can be seen virtually everywhere these days. And it has gone on for literally years.

It is not my job to convince people of their reality. Only to share the fact that, as usual, most people don't care, don't want to know, and don't give a damn anyway. What's new ?

We can add to this to -

Codex Alimentarius
Drinking Water being treated with Fluroide and other Chemicals
GM Crops (take, for example, 2 Scientific Reports on Iowa, GM wheat)

http://palashscape.blogspot.com/2010/04/fwd-medicalconspiracies-2000000-dead.html







I've figured out the problem with thories like this. Lokasenna, you are right that the same evidence is being provided as evidence for both a theory of consipiracy and one of it being a perfectly natural phenomenon. Research has been done on the length of time that contrails can last. The only problem, and the reason that I've not put it here, is the research was conducted by the US Air Force which of course will bring us back to the validity of the source since it is a conspiracy perpetuated by the government *sigh*. There is no way to argue the point because any and all evidence will be suspect since the majority of research like this is conducted by the same people who are said to be using it to cover up more devious actions.

I can say that the government certainly does dump chemicals, if that is what you would like to refer to fuel as, but as far as dumping cheicals outside of those used in wars... I've yet to see any verifiable evidence, and as Papaya so blantantly put YouTube videos are far from proof. What I see is a contrail that may not be dissipating as quickly because of its density and other atmospheric conditions. The same condensed water vapor that makes up clouds is what makes up contrais. Musicology, can you show me evidence where clouds MUST dissipate after a couple of hours? Even cirrus clouds, which look remarkably similar to contrails in size and density, can last for days and weeks. Contrails are most frequently formed at the highest altitudes, so the water vapor can easily be expected to behave in a similar fasion.

[anzki4]

However Musicology you still haven`t got any evidence, like Lokasenna said.

Picture or video or someone`s word is not an evidence.

I can show you plenty of videos and pictures about Father Christmas, and I can say he exist, but still, that is not evidence.

And even though those "Chemtrails" exist, there is no evidence it`s harmful.

It might as well be...testing a new ecological fuel for planes. :)

EDIT: And by though I mean "IF".
...

Or maybe it really is Chemtrail, that is meant to kill everyone. It must be the Nazis that have been living on the dark side of the moon, who have now returned on earth!

Be prepared for WWIII :)

...

[Musicology]

Anzki,

I think most people will agree film evidence of plane flights IS evidence. The source of Father Christmas films are also evidence. But nobody believes Father Christmas is real. Except children.

You agree that these films of plane flights are real. Because you say -

'And even though those "Chemtrails" exist, there is no evidence it`s harmful'.

So, on the one hand you deny these films are evidence of the existence of chemtrails but on the other hand you agree they (chemtrails) really exist !!!:willy_nilly:

Forgive me thinking you are contradicting yourself.

Anyway

Regards






However Musicology you still haven`t got any evidence, like Lokasenna said.

Picture or video or someone`s word is not an evidence.

I can show you plenty of videos and pictures about Father Christmas, and I can say he exist, but still, that is not evidence.

And even though those "Chemtrails" exist, there is no evidence it`s harmful.

It might as well be...testing a new ecological fuel for planes. :)

...

Or maybe it really is Chemtrail, that is meant to kill everyone. It must be the Nazis that have been living on the dark side of the moon, who have now returned on earth!

Be prepared for WWIII :)

...

[anzki4]

Oh! You`re right, but for that is to blame my English skills (=It is not my primary language), and perhaps my impatience. "Though" was meant to be "IF".

So sorry for this inconvenience, but still you didn`t answer my other points.

And I found this definition on net for though; (archaic) If, that, even if . :)

[Musicology]

Anzki,

Thanks for telling us English is not your primary language.

Let's try again.

Do you believe NO chemicals are being sprayed by jet planes ? i.e. You believe all 'chemtrails' are contrails ?

Here is some simple evidence of the obvious difference between contrails and chemtrails.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYTDeQALQG0

and again -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDR-r1ds9t8&feature=related

and again - (this time clear evidence of chemtrails being switched on and off by a plane) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEOod0LFDtI&feature=related

Contrails of jets disappear almost always within seconds. We have all seen them. But chemtrails remain in the sky, often for hours. The difference is obvious, isn't it ?



Oh! You`re right, but for that is to blame my English skills (=It is not my primary language), and perhaps my impatience. "Though" was meant to be "IF".

So sorry for this inconvenience, but still you didn`t answer my other points.

And I found this definition on net for though; (archaic) If, that, even if . :)

[Babbalanja]

Contrails of jets disappear almost always within seconds. We have all seen them. But chemtrails remain in the sky, often for hours. The difference is obvious, isn't it ?Which is exactly what we'd expect if chemtrails were evidence of sinister government/military poison testing. Isn't it obvious that the super-secret Star Chamber would want their poison chemtrails to be visible for hours, so people could take pictures and videos of them and thereby expose the sadistic government plot?

Regards,

Istvan

[Musicology]

Babbalanja,

Either chemtrails exist or they do not. But instead of agreeing they exist we are back to a 'sinister government/military poison testing'. Why not agree they exist ? Can we get to that first base, or not ? Because, as said at the start, the mass media ignores them. And there are posters here who believe the video/film evidence isn't evidence at all ! I mean, how simple does this get ???

Shall we describe that attitude as an 'emu sticking its head in the sand' and refusing to accept what is plain fact ? Tax payers are paying for these chemtrails made in the skies above us, day after day.

Chemtrails exist. And nobody is telling us what they are or what the material being sprayed is. Why ? Those are the facts. What does it cost to have hundreds of such flights made day and night ? A few cents or hundreds of millions ?



Which is exactly what we'd expect if chemtrails were evidence of sinister government/military poison testing. Isn't it obvious that the super-secret Star Chamber would want their poison chemtrails to be visible for hours, so people could take pictures and videos of them and thereby expose the sadistic government plot?

Regards,

Istvan

[Babbalanja]

Chemtrails exist. And nobody is telling us what they are or what the material being sprayed is. Why ? Those are the facts.:smilielol5:

[Musicology]

What do you think they are ? Cartoons ?? :willy_nilly: Mirages ?



:smilielol5:

[MarkBastable]

But what I don't understand is - if this stuff is being released into the atmosphere - surely the people behind it are poisoning themselves and their families along with the rest of the population?

[papayahed]

:bigear:deja vu

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Hello Musicology,

I hope you found a moment to read my previous posting on the subject. In the event that you may have missed it, I quoted it below. In the meantime, I found more images of “Agent White” being dispensed during World War II.

Oh, I learned that the term “Agent White” is credited to a leading proponent of the Chemtrail phenomenon and former Viet Nam bomber pilot. The term is a play off of “Agent Orange”; a chemical defoliant used in the Viet Nam war.
After further research, I learned that “Agent White” is none other than a highly refined form of Aluminum Anhydrous Tetra Chloride. It is interesting to note that it can only be dispensed in the mid to upper ranges of the troposphere.

So, here are the additional images I mentioned above:

“Agent white” over St. Paul’s Cathedral likely photographed in mid to late summer of 1941:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/Uncinus/SKhajpVp-YE/AAAAAAAAAIc/u2UpCM_aruM/s160-c/WWIIContrails.jpg


B-17’s laying down aluminum anhydrous tetra chloride trails over Germany (in addition to dropping a few bombs):

http://contrailscience.com/wp-content/uploads/topcoverphotow.jpg


“Agent White” during the Battle of the Bulge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q48AEDwFBoY&feature=related


Once again, for those who may question the effects of “agent white” on humans, one only has to look to Buddy Ebsen.

Regards,
Gilliatt





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/B-17_Flying_Fortress.jpg

...Why am I sharing this? Well, there were times when this game would take them to such an altitude that contrails would develop thus creating a tell tale path to the leader. By the way, at lower altitudes “vapor trails” (instant clouds) would often form at wingtips for example, (see Hurricane’s F-14 Tomcat) that could give you away particularly in the humid environment of the Phillipines.

...Mind you, when I say contrails, I am not talking about short lived trails that would dissipate soon after forming. Often times the contrails would remain in the sky for quite some time. It all depends on the atmospheric conditions at a given altitude...

It may be that what we are witnessing today is a deadly form of “chaff”. With the advent of radar just before the war and successfully implemented during the war, there was a need for a countermeasure. Soon it was realized that small strips of aluminum foil deposited form aircraft would interfere with the radar signals. “Chaff” was further developed into a fine aluminum powder and appeared as contrails when dumped out of the aircraft. It may be that your deadly chemical is actually a fine aluminum powder also known as “agent white”. There have been proven cases where aluminum powder has had deleterious affects on humans.

You may recall the movie; “The Wizard of Oz”. The actor Buddy Ebsen was originally slated to play the role of the Tin Man, but he nearly died from a severe allergic reaction to the aluminum powder used in his makeup.

Please scroll down to the “Wizard of Oz” segment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Ebsen

According to a neighbor who once worked at Boeing aircraft, the powder used on Buddy Ebsen was provided by Boeing. Boeing of course manufactured the B-17 Flying Fortress, B-29 Super Fortress, B-52 Strato Fortress, all three of which have utilized chaff as countermeasures during WW II, Korea and Viet Nam.

Here are a few videos showing the deposition of “agent white”:

Over Meopham in Kent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuDN4WNwmJ4&feature=related
The aircraft seen are likely Supermarine Spitfires or Hawker Hurricanes versus Messerschmitt BF 109’s or Focke Wulf 190.

Respectfully submitted,

Gilliatt

[Musicology]

Hi there Gilliatt,

Very interesting post. The truth is that the young these days are so firewalled behind the TV version of reality they struggle to see how corrupt mankind can be.

The effects of raining down very small chemical particles may take years to be felt. In a massive increase in respiratory and other illnesses. We do not know the exact composition of these materials. They may vary flight after flight. Forming compounds. Each of them individually of no real threat to health. But in combination falling to the ground, and staying in the air, to have effects upon nature and upon humans.

They talk of 'tin hats' and 'conspiracy theories' because it's so much easier to deny what is happening right in front of our noses. Time after time it's the same sort of answer. And the flights just continue, day after day. Above major cities worldwide. A friend of mine in Canada (an ex pilot) described 41 flights in a single day above his city recently.

I no longer want to argue with anyone on this issue. What would be the point of that ? On issue after issue we can only bring the attention of the public to these things. And allow them to sleepwalk in to the future they have chosen.

I don't even see it as a 'conspiracy'. But as a massive fact most people can't believe and won't believe. What's new ? I assume the minority get it. Whether we are talking of mass vaccinations, Codex Alimentarius, water supplies, or here, with chemtrails. The more 'scientific' we get the more absurd it gets.

As for myself I think we should take an interest in the sky above us, in nature, in our water being clean, and in eating healthy fruits and vegetables. That this is a reasonable thing for we who are stewards, in a sense, of the bees, the trees and the world in which we are living. And I know some people, everywhere, think the same. Young and old. Glad you care ! So do I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-DAodr6BxQ

Very best wishes

[MarkBastable]

Am I invisible?

[papayahed]

Am I invisible?

No but you look like a joker..:biggrin5:

:smilielol5:

[MarkBastable]

No but you look like a joker


That would not necessarily distinguish me in this thread.

[JuniperWoolf]

So hey, Musicology...

I was just sitting around, minding my own business and I got to wondering: how is it that the organizers of this conspiracy avoid poisoning themselves and their families along with the rest of the population? I'm not sure how this train of thought got into my head, must just be one of those things.

[anzki4]

Ok Musicology...

You haven`t still answered to all my points in my first post on this thread. (Among plenty other posters.) All you do is show videos, videos and even more videos. Still you haven`t got any evidences about their("Chemtrails") effect.

It is like saying:
-Lions can fly. Here is the evidence:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_v5NpUU55nxc/STe6ksBRngI/AAAAAAAAB2s/Ld6g9kyZoSk/s400/Lion-sleepTree-Taran5Au02-f.jpg
.

Even if the things you call "Chemtrail" exist, that doesn`t prove anything about their effects.

[Babbalanja]

The truth is that the young these days are so firewalled behind the TV version of reality they struggle to see how corrupt mankind can be...They talk of 'tin hats' and 'conspiracy theories' because it's so much easier to deny what is happening right in front of our noses...On issue after issue we can only bring the attention of the public to these things. And allow them to sleepwalk in to the future they have chosen. Conspiracy theories appeal to the kind of person who thinks nothing of announcing his contempt for anyone less credulous than him. I mean, what does it say about the objectivity of someone's research when he spends less time answering questions about his claims than accusing skeptics of being sheeplike, willfully ignorant, or even part of the conspiracy itself?

Regards,

Istvan

[The Atheist]

Just curious, but not curious to read the thread, has anyone asked how this stuff is loaded into the planes?

Given that they spend almost 100% of their time under floodlights or in broad daylight, parked outside a terminal building, surrounded by people, it must be fairly tricky to do.

And where is the release mechanism?

Cheers.

[Hurricane]

words words words...

I no longer want to argue with anyone on this issue. What would be the point of that ? On issue after issue we can only bring the attention of the public to these things. And allow them to sleepwalk in to the future they have chosen.

I don't even see it as a 'conspiracy'. But as a massive fact most people can't believe and won't believe. What's new ? I assume the minority get it.

words words words...

Very best wishes

But the problem here is, you can't prove that they are facts. You've presented a controversial opinion on what an observable phenomenon (contrails) is, so you're under the burden of proof to present the answers to the who/what/when/where/how/why questions.
For example, I could state as a fact (like Howard Zinn does in "A People's History of the United States"...I think he's wrong, by the way) that the founding of the United States was based largely, almost solely on the greed of the founding fathers. But for this view to be considered valid, I would have to give explanations for why this happened, who did it, and how.

[Musicology]

Anzki,

You haven't answered anything. The facts are there are thousands of films of planes spraying trails in the sky. The facts are these trails stay far longer than contrails. The facts are no matter how many thousands of them are filmed across the world you are unable to accept the fact of their existence. In such a case the problem is not mine but yours. I am showing videos because they are documentary evidence of chemtrails. Which, when you accept the fact of them is step one. You have got to step 1, haven't you ? If you have not, sleep on.

And, as for the inside of chemtrail planes, how about this ? Must be contrails, yes ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaQGSfAVAKo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FO4GHBu_Hs&feature=related

Of course they are, right ??

Just keep watching Hollywood, right ?

:willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:



Ok Musicology...

You haven`t still answered to all my points in my first post on this thread. (Among plenty other posters.) All you do is show videos, videos and even more videos. Still you haven`t got any evidences about their("Chemtrails") effect.

It is like saying:
-Lions can fly. Here is the evidence:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_v5NpUU55nxc/STe6ksBRngI/AAAAAAAAB2s/Ld6g9kyZoSk/s400/Lion-sleepTree-Taran5Au02-f.jpg
.

Even if the things you call "Chemtrail" exist, that doesn`t prove anything about their effects.

What would you say if you were told that airplanes were regularly spraying toxic aerosols in the skies above every major region of the world? That is exactly what a group of protestors were claiming outside of thennual American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) meeting that was held in San Diego from February 18-22. However, inside the convention center was a different story. The scientists gathered to discuss the “plausibility” of implementing various Geo-engineering campaigns throughout the world, all under the guise that the Earth has a man-made global warming problem that can be solved in-part by spraying aerosol aluminum and other particles into the sky to block the sun. When these scientists were asked about the possibility of existing aerosol programs; they stated that no aerosol spraying programs have been implemented to date. A little confused? Why would protestors gather outside of a meeting making claims that world-wide aerosol programs were under way if scientist were only now discussing the possibility of implementing these programs? Could it be that one of these groups is being deceived?

Mauro Oliveira, the Webmaster of Geoengineeringwatch.org, was one of the protestors. He claimed that the program for Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-engineering (SAG), AKA chemtrails, has been well under way around the world. As a matter of fact, Oliveira stated that witnesses from around the globe claim that heavy aerosol spraying is occurring almost every day over just about every city. He went on to explain the difference between a contrail and a chemtrail. He stated that when a jet airplane flies at a certain altitude, a visible trail of streaks of condensed water vapor sometimes form in the wake of the aircraft. This is called a contrail. Contrails are normal and usually dissipate in a few seconds. They are very similar to when we breathe in cold weather. According to Oliveira, what occurs behind a SAG plane spraying aerosols is quite different. What can be seen is a thick white line also called a chemtrail that lingers in the sky for several hours. The SAG lines are sprayed into the upper atmosphere and then spread out forming what then appear to be clouds. The particles from these aerosols then fall to the ground where they enter our soil and water and can also be inhaled.


Another group of protestors had traveled over 10 hours from a small Shasta County community in Northern California. They became concerned about SAG when many from this community began to see dramatic changes not only in the sky, but also on the ground. Trees were dying, grass was not growing and many farmers were having difficulty getting any crops to grow on their farms. The crisis prompted biologists from the community to take action by testing the soil. The results were shocking. Aluminum, barium and other elements were found to be up to thousands of times higher than normal limits. Such high quantities lead to unhealthy PH levels in the soil which can be deadly to ecological life systems. These shocking results led to additional testing of Lake Shasta with samples from the Pit River arm tributary that tested over 4,610 times the maximum contamination level of aluminum allowed in drinking water in the state of California. Also, peer reviewed scientific studies conclude that bio-available aluminum, now found in huge quantities in rain world-wide, is very harmful to flora and thus the eco-system. Ironically, these are the same substances the scientists are considering implementing in the various potential “future” aerosol spraying campaigns that were being discussed at the meeting.

A large number of other protesters became interested in SAG after experiencing burning eyes, migraine headaches, anxiety, irregular heartbeat, high blood pressure and other health problems on days that airplanes were allegedly witnessed spraying aerosols in the sky. Deborah Whitman, Founder and President of the non-profit environmental organization Environmental Voices and also Producer of the documentary “Sky Lines” is no stranger to these symptoms. She has been hospitalized over 51 times on what she calls “heavy spraying days”. Whitman has committed her life to helping people who claim to be experiencing similar problems resulting from aerosol spraying and gets calls from all over the U.S. in response to her website and documentary. Her recommended health tips can be found at www.environmentalvoices.org. Other indicators that possibly validate the claim that SAG is connected to health problems are the respiratory mortality rate, which has risen from eight on the list of mortality to third in the past five years, and the fact that Alzheimer’s and other illnesses linked to aluminum have continued to rise around the globe at astronomical rates since the inception of the alleged spraying.

The AAAS meeting hosted some of the world’s leading geo-engineering scientists. With years of education and even more experience in their respected fields, the scientists looked at geo-engineering issues from many angles. Workshop subjects ranged from, the effectiveness of geo-engineering to potential problems and even touched upon the issue of ethics. According to independent reporter Stewart Howe of Los Angeles, all of the scientists seemed to be looking for solutions to what they believe is the problem of global warming. Howe stated that the scientists appeared to be carefully weighing both the pros and cons of SAG when presenting potential campaigns to address the man-made global warming theory. Many were actually advocating alternative methods to combat this issue due to the potential risks of SAG that include droughts, ozone depletion, less solar power, decimated weather patterns, military use of technology and other various environmental impacts. Howe said, “after witnessing the aerosol spraying for years, I was surprised by the discourse among scientists.” Stewart went on to say that he believes that most of the scientists attending seemed to be separated from the knowledge of any current SAG deployment. As a matter of fact when asked about current SAG operations, leading geo-engineering scientist Ken Caldiera replied that he was unaware of any current aerosol spraying operations and when prompted to explain the long lingering trails left behind planes, he stated that they are simply normal contrails from jets.

David Keith, another leading scientist and expert in the field of geo-engineering, discussed the well-funded studies that have been conducted to predict potential future risks as well as benefits associated with geo-engineering. Some of the potential benefits include a cooler planet, and the reduction of melting sea ice and rising sea levels. Keith discussed what aerosol particles would be most effective in achieving the stated goals of the SAG program. He went on to say that initially sulfur was considered, however, aluminum is more effective and can be used by adding ten to twenty mega-tons per year into the stratosphere. When asked about health related studies that have been conducted to predict the potential risks of adding the particles in our air, Keith stated that many studies have been completed and indicate few risks. However, when asked specifically about the use of aluminum as an aerosol, he said “we haven’t done anything serious on aluminum, so there could be something terrible that we will find tomorrow that we haven't looked at." After the meeting, Keith showed consideration to the protesters by initiating a discussion about the SAG program outside where the protestors were standing. When confronted with concerns about SAG deployment from the group, he went on to say that he shared similar views and is against any deployment until proper research is completed to determine potential risks of aerosol spraying. He also went on to say that he is unaware of any current SAG operations, but, would be willing to look at any scientific proof if presented to him.

As the skies around our world continue to change, there is strong evidence that points toward current deployment of massive aerosol operations. Could it be that scientific data and studies are being used to implement pre-mature full-scale SAG programs with-out the knowledge of the top scientists who are involved with the research? If so, what kind of ethical considerations can we expect from the geo-engineering community in the future? It is hard to believe that the strange white lines in the skies witnessed around the world and the toxic elements found in the soil, water and air are from an unrelated source. We the people, in partnership with the scientific community need to challenge not only the environmental and health risks associated with SAG but also the numerous world-wide allegations about current deployment. It is imperative that we become educated and involved in uncovering the truth of this alleged crime against both nature and humanity.

[anzki4]

even if the things you call "chemtrail" exist, that doesn`t prove anything about their effects.

but what i don't understand is - if this stuff is being released into the atmosphere - surely the people behind it are poisoning themselves and their families along with the rest of the population?
.....
....
...
..
.

[keilj]

I was just sitting around, minding my own business and I got to wondering: how is it that the organizers of this conspiracy avoid poisoning themselves and their families along with the rest of the population?

simple - they have the antidote

[Musicology]

Another reason for the worldwide spraying of Chemtrails is to create illusions of aircraft or other objects in the sky. This is done by a technique called 'Holograms'. So almost everyone believes in an invasion of UFO's, or foreign planes etc. Done by filling the airspace with chemicals and reflecting images off of it.

Here is a scientific paper on that subject where Barium is used. Exactly the chemical found by many researchers in chemtrails -

''3-D Holographic Display Using Strontium Barium Niobate''

Authors: Christy A. Heid; Brian P. Ketchel; Gary L. Wood; Richard J. Anderson; Gregory J. Salamo; ARMY RESEARCH LAB ADELPHI MD

Abstract: An innovative technique for generating a three dimensional holographic display using strontium barium niobate (SBN) is discussed. The resultant image is a hologram that can be viewed in real time over a wide perspective or field of view (FOV). The holographic image is free from system- induced aberrations and has a uniform, high quality over the entire FOV. The enhanced image quality results from using a phase conjugate read beam generated from a second photorefractive crystal acting as a double pumped phase conjugate mirror (DPPCM). Multiple three dimensional images have been stored in the crystal via wavelength multiplexing.

Limitations: APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
Description: Progress rept. Nov 96-Aug 97
Pages: 21
Report Date: FEB 1998
Report Number: A094833

http://www.stormingmedia.us/09/0948/A094833.html

An example (almost certainly) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu8VOPCI_10

[Musicology]

First some more chemtrails. What chemtrails ??????? LOL !!!

1/4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3x81hb-Vk0&feature=related

And then comes the admission that projecting images into the sky as 'holograms' is already being used. Here is a scientific paper on the technique used to create a 3D image in the air. Note the use of the element Barium -

2/4

Another reason for the worldwide spraying of Chemtrails seems to be to create an environment where illusions of aircraft or other objects can be projected into the sky. This is done by a technique called 'Holograms'. So almost all televised people believe there is an ''invasion of UFO's'', or ''foreign planes'' etc. Done by filling the airspace with chemicals and projecting/reflecting images off of it. Once everyone believes in such 'alien invasions' they will need a GLOBAL response, of course !! Propaganda, of course. Lots of funding and serious military and social 'control' of the 'threat'. Kids will believe it and so will most people who don't know it's all a fake.

Here is a scientific paper on that subject where the chemical Barium is used. Exactly the chemical found by many researchers in chemtrails -

''3-D Holographic Display Using Strontium Barium Niobate''

Authors: Christy A. Heid; Brian P. Ketchel; Gary L. Wood; Richard J. Anderson; Gregory J. Salamo; ARMY RESEARCH LAB ADELPHI MD

Abstract: An innovative technique for generating a three dimensional holographic display using strontium barium niobate (SBN) is discussed. The resultant image is a hologram that can be viewed in real time over a wide perspective or field of view (FOV). The holographic image is free from system- induced aberrations and has a uniform, high quality over the entire FOV. The enhanced image quality results from using a phase conjugate read beam generated from a second photorefractive crystal acting as a double pumped phase conjugate mirror (DPPCM). Multiple three dimensional images have been stored in the crystal via wavelength multiplexing.

Limitations: APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
Description: Progress rept. Nov 96-Aug 97
Pages: 21
Report Date: FEB 1998
Report Number: A094833

http://www.stormingmedia.us/09/0948/A094833.html

//

3/4

And, finally two examples of what seem to be 'planes' being projected into the air using hologram technology. These filmed by many people over recent years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu8VOPCI_10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH8CWFANbpE&feature=related

And here, another -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAvpJL5DV48&feature=related

Conclusions -

Big public money is being spent on the making of Chemtrails internationally. One of whose components is the dangerous element Barium. And the using of hologram technology to make images of 'planes' and other 'aircraft' to give the impression of them flying. Developing, in fact, a tool of propaganda. Which could feature other scary images if it got in to the hands of evil men. 'Aliens' and 'monsters' etc. Lacing the sky with Barium chemtrails. And then projecting hologram images.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH8CWFANbpE&feature=related

And here, another -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAvpJL5DV48&feature=related

Part, at least, of the solution to the puzzle that is 'chemtrails'. No more a matter of debate but of plain, indisputable fact. With unknown costs on birds, bees, and human beings. Busted !!

[Lokasenna]

I can't help but notice that your film evidence is always taken from a rapidly moving car - I suggest that these 'hovering planes' are merely an illusion created by a constantly changing perspective.

Finally, what do aerial holograms have to do with these supposed chemtrails? You've previously asserted that 'they' are spraying poison all over us, but now they're deliberately painting kooky pictures on the sky? To what purpose?

[MarkBastable]

So almost everyone believes in an invasion of UFO's....


Almost everyone? I think that contention needs some documentary back-up.

Incidentally, if these chemicals are being released so braadly and indiscriminately, aren't they poisoning the families of the people behind it all?

[keilj]

Incidentally, if these chemicals are being released so braadly and indiscriminately, aren't they poisoning the families of the people behind it all?

see my previous post. They have the antidote


to you Englanders - aren't you all getting government-mandated microchip implants soon too??

[Musicology]

Oh my goodness !! What does it take to wake these people up ? I've just provided a scientific paper on the use of 3D projected hologram images using spaces that have been previously treated with Barium. I've produced proof of Barium being found in various chemtrails. And I've produced multiple images of 'planes' appearing to hover in mid-air. Conclusive proof of an association between at least some chemtrails and hologram technology.

And what does Lokasenna reply ? He refers to 'Constantly changing perspective'. :willy_nilly:

Why not do yourself a favour ? Get your watch out and time how many seconds the 'plane' is in sight as it is being filmed. Estimate, if you can, its speed. Just what does it take for you to realise, finally, at last, in the end, you have been fast asleep ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAvpJL5DV48&feature=related

Try this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f0aaksaRLU&feature=related

and what about this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQk8dx-neAs&feature=related

Where did you get your education from ? Countless examples now available from many sources.




I can't help but notice that your film evidence is always taken from a rapidly moving car - I suggest that these 'hovering planes' are merely an illusion created by a constantly changing perspective.

Finally, what do aerial holograms have to do with these supposed chemtrails? You've previously asserted that 'they' are spraying poison all over us, but now they're deliberately painting kooky pictures on the sky? To what purpose?

[Musicology]

Judging from your icon I think you've obviously be treated with the antidote, right ? I mean, what's the point of showing page after page of facts which you simply cannot handle ?

It's not your fault. Really. Go back to sleep.


Almost everyone? I think that contention needs some documentary back-up.

Incidentally, if these chemicals are being released so braadly and indiscriminately, aren't they poisoning the families of the people behind it all?

[hillwalker]

It would be fascinating to hear you answer WHY?

Why are the armed forces projecting holograms of aircraft in the sky??
Is it to trick some unidentified 'enemy'?
Is it to send us mere civilians scuttling back into our caves like superstitious idiots?

My mind boggles..... but not only at the display of pointless technology. At the whole pointlessness of such a bizarre exercise.

[MarkBastable]

Judging from your icon I think you've obviously be treated with the antidote, right ? I mean, what's the point of showing page after page of facts which you simply cannot handle ?

It's not your fault. Really. Go back to sleep.

You misunderstand. I'm not disputing the case. I'm assuming you're right. And that does give rise to the very logical and practical question of how these people are avoiding poisoning their families.

[Scheherazade]

The chemtrail threads have been merged as they deal with the same issue.

[applepie]

Judging from your icon I think you've obviously be treated with the antidote, right ? I mean, what's the point of showing page after page of facts which you simply cannot handle ?

It's not your fault. Really. Go back to sleep.

I would like to point out that YouTube videos and information provided by a webmaster to a site are a far cry from undeniable "facts". I could create an entire site which talks of darn near anything. This doesn't make my information any more reliable simply because I've put it into print. You have presented pages and pages of speculation, nothing more. As such it is perfectly reasonable to question the conclusion. You have yet to answer a simple question.

If there are harmful chemicals being sprayed into the atmosphere, how are the people involved protecting themselves? How does a scientific paper about the use of a chemical to help produce holograms in the air offer any proof towards chemtrails? All it illustrates is that things can be sprayed for different uses. You can see that if you've ever watched a crop dusting, or seen someone's name written in the air. This isn't a new revelation, but it is interesting that they can use a compound to make it possible to project a hologram into the air. It by no means is support that there are chemicals being sprayed into the air for nefarious purposes. I'll not argue the ability to spray chemicals because it has been done before. I will argue the logic surrounding the idea that it is being done since what you are talking of is not selective in who is being exposed and there would be little protection for the individuals behind the plot.

Even if it is barium (one of the chemicals that you yourself say have been found), there are no health problems associated with over exposure to barium dust other than the presence of a cough. It can build in the lungs creating a condition called baritosis, but according to multiple medical sites it has no interference with lung functions. The sediment that shows on the lungs will clear with time. What would be the point of spraying such a chemical? It causes no harm to the individual, so even if they are spraying it, it stands to logic that it isn't for the purpose of causing harm.

[The Atheist]

The chemtrail threads have been merged as they deal with the same issue.

That post and your sig go so well together in this thread.

{edit}

[Scheherazade]

~

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Posts containing personal remarks will be removed without further notice.

~

[Emil Miller]

I have followed this thread with interest and have also noticed the alleged chemtrails in the sky over a long period. Musicology has presented a body of evidence in support of his claim that chemicals that are deleterious to health are being regularly sprayed in the skies above Britain, but has consistently refused to answer Mark Bastable's question as to how the relatives of those responsible escape the toxic effects of such an operation. Until that question is answered the whole proposition remains shrouded in doubt.

[The Atheist]

Until that question is answered the whole proposition remains shrouded in doubt.

That's pretty generous of you.

I don't see any "doubt" involved as there is not a shred of evidence.

The premise is so absurd it isn't worth debating, but just to post some actual evidence, I note the following:

Aircraft have been leaving contrails since they could pass through 20,000 feet, and during WWII, there were frequent contrails over England and Europe. Here are some from a bombing raid, c1944:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s97/TheAtheist/contrail.jpg

The thing that amazes me most is that people try to say that planes at 35,000 feet are spraying people on the ground.

Nope - it just doesn't work like that. Even when there is no apparent wind, anything released from that height would end up several dozen miles from where it was intended, and in the case of UK, it would all fall into the sea. Maybe the idea is to poison fish??

Anyway, when anything is sprayed from an aeroplane, the plane must be at extremely low height to have any chance of the spray working, hence this photo from the 1990s, when moths were sprayed in Auckland and Hamilton:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s97/TheAtheist/rm15-02.jpg

There is just no way that anything released from 10,000m is going to hit the target.

What the "chemtrail" conspiracists need to do is show what chemicals are being used, how they're affecting the population, and most importantly, how they're loaded onto commercial jets then released from pressurised cabins without crashing the aircraft. It isn't easy to open a hatch at 10,000m at almost the speed of sound. This is why the high-altitude bombers left in use are turbo-propellor driven rather than jets, but don't let science stand in the way of a loony conspiracy.

Even one minute's worth of actual scientific enquiry shows the idea to be so preposterous as to be worthless.

The point conspiracists miss is that if the spray is being used, they are clearly getting the spray and it obviously doesn't work, because there are thousands of them writing on the internet and posting Youtube videos.

My pick for the next conspiracy is HAARP.

They cause earthquakes and tsunami, doncherknow...

[jocky]

Just to throw a bit of doubt into a thread that seems to be floundering. Why would any sensible person in this day and age believe any government ? Big bad Iran, how dare they produce nuclear capability, goodness sake their leader believes in the Twelfth Immam. We in the West have got more than our share of religious nutcases, in Scotland we cannot even travel to the Islands on a Sunday as it is the day of the Sabbath. At the end of the day being destroyed by a religion or a political ideology makes little difference, the end result is the same, death. Bollocks to the lot of them, I choose life. :)

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

.
.

Musicology,
I spoke with my neighbor, Mr. Roderick Surleeng, the retired Boeing aircraft engineer, about the dispersal of agent white during WW II. I showed him the photograph of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress I posted previously.
Here it is again for those who may not recall:




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/B-17_Flying_Fortress.jpg




Mr. Surleeng pointed out an interesting detail in the photograph. Notice the spiral pattern trailing behind each propeller. My neighbor told me that Boeing consulted with SAG agents and Hamilton Standard propeller company engineers to design a propeller with a single tube contained within each of the three propeller blades. Aluminum anhydrous tetra chloride was pumped through the propeller shaft. The centrifugal force of the spinning propellers would “sling” the toxic powder out of the tips. By distributing agent white through the propeller tips in conjunction with the traditional engine exhaust method, the evildoers were able to increase dispersal output by 150 percent.




Aircraft have been leaving contrails since they could pass through 20,000 feet, and during WWII, there were frequent contrails over England and Europe. Here are some from a bombing raid, c1944:


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s97/TheAtheist/contrail.jpg





It is interesting to note that SAG activists were very active during WW II. SAG apparently collaborated with both the Allied and Axis nations based on the irrefutable photographic evidence of agent white trails captured during the war as you and I have shown.
This past March my son and I spent three days camping at Chaco Canyon NHP in New Mexico. One afternoon I took a photograph of our tents and the cliffs beyond. Soon after taking the shot, I noticed a chemtrail overhead and became extremely distraught.
Please note the thin white line in the extreme upper right corner of the following picture -



http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Chaco%20Culture%20NHS%20and%20New%20Mexico/IMG_1439.jpg



After dragging myself out of the tent the next morning, I noticed a thin veil of white on the tent. It felt very cold to the touch (the temperature was 23 deg F). Certainly this was agent white that had settled overnight from the chemtrail we had seen. My son insisted that it was simply frost. I was not convinced and told him not to touch it.


Gilliatt

[jocky]

.
.

Musicology,
I spoke with my neighbor, Mr. Roderick Surleeng, the retired Boeing aircraft engineer, about the dispersal of agent white during WW II. I showed him the photograph of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress I posted previously.
Here it is again for those who may not recall:






Mr. Surleeng pointed out an interesting detail in the photograph. Notice the spiral pattern trailing behind each propeller. My neighbor told me that Boeing consulted with SAG agents and Hamilton Standard propeller company engineers to design a propeller with a single tube contained within each of the three propeller blades. Aluminum anhydrous tetra chloride was pumped through the propeller shaft. The centrifugal force of the spinning propellers would “sling” the toxic powder out of the tips. By distributing agent white through the propeller tips in conjunction with the traditional engine exhaust method, the evildoers were able to increase dispersal output by 150 percent.






It is interesting to note that SAG activists were very active during WW II. SAG apparently collaborated with both the Allied and Axis nations based on the irrefutable photographic evidence of agent white trails captured during the war as you and I have shown.
This past March my son and I spent three days camping at Chaco Canyon NHP in New Mexico. One afternoon I took a photograph of our tents and the cliffs beyond. Soon after taking the shot, I noticed a chemtrail overhead and became extremely distraught.
Please note the thin white line in the extreme upper right corner of the following picture -



http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Chaco%20Culture%20NHS%20and%20New%20Mexico/IMG_1439.jpg



After dragging myself out of the tent the next morning, I noticed a thin veil of white on the tent. It felt very cold to the touch (the temperature was 23 deg F). Certainly this was agent white that had settled overnight from the chemtrail we had seen. My son insisted that it was simply frost. I was not convinced and told him not to touch it.


Gilliatt

Aye Gilly, but you are getting carried away with the technicalties of killing machines. If I look at the mechanics of an SA80 Mark1 or Mark 2 the question arises is this going to work in the desert or cold conditions? Should I oil it more or less, are the rounds going to work or not ? At the end of the day it is little consolation for the poor sod on the other end of it. War, usually boils down to science and who can do the most damage with the least casualties. I vote for Sarah Palin. Are you going to the party , the Boston tea Party ? Google the 'Sentional Alex Harvey Band ' :)

[The Atheist]

After dragging myself out of the tent the next morning, I noticed a thin veil of white on the tent. It felt very cold to the touch (the temperature was 23 deg F). Certainly this was agent white that had settled overnight from the chemtrail we had seen. My son insisted that it was simply frost. I was not convinced and told him not to touch it.


Gilliatt

Heck, imagine how sick those athletes from the recent Winter Olympics will be - Agent White was EVERYWHERE!!11!!ELEVENTY!

[Musicology]

MarkBastable,

Consider ordinary table salt. This consists (mainly) of two deadly poisons. Sodium and Chloride. But, when combined and taken in small quantities they are harmless.

Again, the reverse may be true with other chemicals. A cocktail of some chemicals may become hazardous. They may be sprayed individually in stages. But when they combine on the ground or in the air they may become extremely hazardous. This would make it safe for pilots to use them.

There are many possibilities. We are now aware that widspread chemical spraying is occurring worldwide. And who will speak up for the bees, the insects, the plants etc ? All we can do is share our views, our observations and hope to have a statement from those who are (or should be) accountable for these flights.


You misunderstand. I'm not disputing the case. I'm assuming you're right. And that does give rise to the very logical and practical question of how these people are avoiding poisoning their families.

Thanks for that Gilliat Gurgle,

This is very useful information. Yes, a pilot in Canada reported that at least some of the contents of 'chemtrails' are fuel. Which is being dumped routinely to keep the price high. Not the only contents, of course. But one of the main contents. Together with other lightweight materials. So, as your neighbour suggests, it's not a new phenomenon but has been going on since WW2. I wonder what it was supposed to achieve during WW2 ? Why would they be dropping Aluminum anhydrous tetra chloride ? What was the purpose of that ? Maybe your friend knows that. Aluminum is of course very hazardous material.

Regards




.
.

Musicology,
I spoke with my neighbor, Mr. Roderick Surleeng, the retired Boeing aircraft engineer, about the dispersal of agent white during WW II. I showed him the photograph of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress I posted previously.
Here it is again for those who may not recall:






Mr. Surleeng pointed out an interesting detail in the photograph. Notice the spiral pattern trailing behind each propeller. My neighbor told me that Boeing consulted with SAG agents and Hamilton Standard propeller company engineers to design a propeller with a single tube contained within each of the three propeller blades. Aluminum anhydrous tetra chloride was pumped through the propeller shaft. The centrifugal force of the spinning propellers would “sling” the toxic powder out of the tips. By distributing agent white through the propeller tips in conjunction with the traditional engine exhaust method, the evildoers were able to increase dispersal output by 150 percent.






It is interesting to note that SAG activists were very active during WW II. SAG apparently collaborated with both the Allied and Axis nations based on the irrefutable photographic evidence of agent white trails captured during the war as you and I have shown.
This past March my son and I spent three days camping at Chaco Canyon NHP in New Mexico. One afternoon I took a photograph of our tents and the cliffs beyond. Soon after taking the shot, I noticed a chemtrail overhead and became extremely distraught.
Please note the thin white line in the extreme upper right corner of the following picture -



http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Chaco%20Culture%20NHS%20and%20New%20Mexico/IMG_1439.jpg



After dragging myself out of the tent the next morning, I noticed a thin veil of white on the tent. It felt very cold to the touch (the temperature was 23 deg F). Certainly this was agent white that had settled overnight from the chemtrail we had seen. My son insisted that it was simply frost. I was not convinced and told him not to touch it.


Gilliatt

[hillwalker]

The above hysteria could, of course, be as a result of witnessing cloud seeding experiments -

The upper reaches of the atmosphere are sprayed at great heights with silver iodide (silver and iodine are both poisons, obviously) and dry ice (frozen carbon dioxide - another poisonous gas) in order to accelerate cloud formation in moist air and produce subsequent precipitation over targetted areas that are possibly suffering drought.

Similar techniques have been used to reduce the potentially destructive forces of thunderheads by causing them to release rainfall ahead of schedule.
And the Russians used cloud seeding following the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in order to avoid toxic clouds reaching highly-populated areas.

Secret weapons? Against who, and how on earth would they be effective on a target on the ground?
So far no-one is coming up with any sensible answers. I wonder why.....

[dizzydoll]

The above hysteria could, of course,

be just like throwing sand from our sandpit into the air. lol. Dont mind them Walker, they just having fun on the LitNet playground.

http://serve.mysmiley.net/animated/anim_26.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)

[keilj]

why has no one yet asked: Shouldn't this thread be in the Un-Serious Discussion forum?? It's complete lunacy/fantasy (though it is fun to talk about)

[Hurricane]

This is very useful information. Yes, a pilot in Canada reported that at least some of the contents of 'chemtrails' are fuel. Which is being dumped routinely to keep the price high. Not the only contents, of course. But one of the main contents. Together with other lightweight materials. So, as your neighbour suggests, it's not a new phenomenon but has been going on since WW2. I wonder what it was supposed to achieve during WW2 ? Why would they be dropping Aluminum anhydrous tetra chloride ? What was the purpose of that ? Maybe your friend knows that. Aluminum is of course very hazardous material.

Regards

Fuel dumping isn't to poison people or keep the cost high, it has to do with weight restrictions. For example, when pilots go to land on an aircraft carrier, often they have to dump several thousand pounds of JP-8 to make landing limits because otherwise they'll be too heavy to land and catch the arresting wire without causing damage to their aircraft. Same applies for approaches on land, including those of large passenger jets.
Why would a company want to dump fuel to keep the costs high? It doesn't make any sense, they have to pay for it more too. Look at the high costs of air travel now: when fuel costs go up, they have to charge passengers more, so passengers choose other means of transportation. Four major air carriers have bankrupted since 2000. Though some of that could be attributed to the post 9/11 drop in business, a lot of it has to do with rising fuel costs. Unless some evil government compensated them for their lost costs, which the bankruptcies indicate isn't the case, it makes no sense for an airline to choose to dump fuel.

[applepie]

Hurricane, they also dump fuel because it helps take away some of the risk of explosion. Planes can still catch fire if there is an accident, but think of how much worse it could be if they are full of fuel.

[Emil Miller]

I take it that the majority of videos showing con/chem trails were taken elsewhere than in the UK which is more or less under cloud cover for most of the year. I have seen these trails some weeks ago on one of the rare clear days we enjoy but today the cloud has also dissipated and there are none visible from where I am sitting. If, as has been suggested, governments are using chemicals to try to offset global warming, why wouldn't they admit to it ? Anybody who believes the theory would surely welcome an attempt to solve the problem. If the chemicals were hazardous to health, in the case of the British government, they would merely be increasing their health service costs.

[MarkBastable]

This would make it safe for pilots to use them.

But even the pilots have to live somewhere, with their wives and families. Next door to me perhaps, or across the road from you. If you and I are being poisoned, so are they.

I find it difficult to understand how any pilot would risk poisoning his own children, even when faced with a direct order to do so.

And apparently we're not talking about one or two pilots here. This is happening on a massive scale daily - so there are a lot of fliers involved, not to mention ground crew, flight controllers, maintenance engineers. All of them, it seems, are conspiring to poison their loved ones.

I hope they're getting overtime.

[keilj]

I find it difficult to understand how any pilot would risk poisoning his own children, even when faced with a direct order to do so.

And apparently we're not talking about one or two pilots here. This is happening on a massive scale daily - so there are a lot of fliers involved, not to mention ground crew, flight controllers, maintenance engineers. All of them, it seems, are conspiring to poison their loved ones.



I don't think it's poison - I think they are airdropping chemicals that cause massive increases in skepticism in humans

[hillwalker]

What we fail to realise is that this has been going on for years. Anyone remember the fable of Chicken Licken, (aka Chicken Little or Henny Penny)?
She was right after all - the sky is falling on our heads, my friends.

[papayahed]

I don't know about you guys but I love the smell of Chemtrails in the morning.

[JuniperWoolf]

Smells like... victory.

(I bet now he'll think we're in on it)

[The Atheist]

Secret weapons? Against who, and how on earth would they be effective on a target on the ground?

Kalahari bushmen and Yorkshire sheep farmers.

The former, because they're used to living in desert conditions and constant rain will kill them; the latter because too much rain makes the lambs cry and all the Yorkshire farmers will go mad and cause riots, thereby enabling new and harsher laws to be brought into being!


I don't think it's poison - I think they are airdropping chemicals that cause massive increases in skepticism in humans

Alas, that, I can guarantee it ain't.

Hard data on "what humans believe" is rare - outside of theistic criteria - but what little there indicates that belief in things not supported by rational investigation is increasing.

Now, if you try to sell me on the idea that the mass-poisoning induces conspiracy theories, belief in "psi" and thinking the Loch Ness monster and Suzy the Saquatch are real, I'd think about it.


What we fail to realise is that this has been going on for years. Anyone remember the fable of Chicken Licken, (aka Chicken Little or Henny Penny)?
She was right after all - the sky is falling on our heads, my friends.

Yep. The internet has provided a good medium for them.

I bet followers of David Icke don't try to convince their fellow workers that Obama is really an alien, but they'll type pages and pages of it online.


Smells like... victory.

(I bet now he'll think we're in on it)

Depending what fantasy I'm attacking at the time, I get frequent accusations of being a paid rep for either Big Oil or Big Pharma.

I just wish they'd find me and send me the damn pay!

[keilj]

Alas, that, I can guarantee it ain't.

Hard data on "what humans believe" is rare - outside of theistic criteria - but what little there indicates that belief in things not supported by rational investigation is increasing.



i was making a joke

I think post #3 in this thread summed everything up. Everything since has been superfluous

[JuniperWoolf]

Depending what fantasy I'm attacking at the time, I get frequent accusations of being a paid rep for either Big Oil or Big Pharma.

I just wish they'd find me and send me the damn pay!

Hahaha, that's wicked. I was once accused of working for NASA (face-to-face, and I was clearly like fifteen years old).

[papayahed]

(I bet now he'll think we're in on it)

What do you mean think??? I've seen you at the meetings!:eek:

[The Atheist]

i was making a joke

Oh, I know. I was just lamenting the fact that it's wrong.


Hahaha, that's wicked. I was once accused of working for NASA (face-to-face, and I was clearly like fifteen years old).

:lol:

Lunacy knows no bounds. You might have been a boy genius!

[Musicology]

Hillwalker,

What is the opposite of hysteria ? Is it pointing out that hundreds, thousands of unmarked planes are daily spraying chemicals worldwide ? Who pays for this ? And does it bother you that chemicals have effects on the birds, bees, insects and humans who live on this earth ?

But no more 'hysterics'. Do tell us what's going on won't you ? This message is courtesy of the Austrian Tourist Board, Europe and also the human, animal and insect population -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2yw8BycEGw&feature=fvsr



The above hysteria could, of course, be as a result of witnessing cloud seeding experiments -

The upper reaches of the atmosphere are sprayed at great heights with silver iodide (silver and iodine are both poisons, obviously) and dry ice (frozen carbon dioxide - another poisonous gas) in order to accelerate cloud formation in moist air and produce subsequent precipitation over targetted areas that are possibly suffering drought.

Similar techniques have been used to reduce the potentially destructive forces of thunderheads by causing them to release rainfall ahead of schedule.
And the Russians used cloud seeding following the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in order to avoid toxic clouds reaching highly-populated areas.

Secret weapons? Against who, and how on earth would they be effective on a target on the ground?
So far no-one is coming up with any sensible answers. I wonder why.....

[prendrelemick]

Kalahari bushmen and Yorkshire sheep farmers.

The former, because they're used to living in desert conditions and constant rain will kill them; the latter because too much rain makes the lambs cry and all the Yorkshire farmers will go mad and cause riots, thereby enabling new and harsher laws to be brought into being!!

It seems to be working here in Yorkshire. (although its difficult to tell a mad farmer from a sane one)

[hillwalker]

Do tell us what's going on won't you ? This message is courtesy of the Austrian Tourist Board, Europe.

Austrian Tourist Board?????? Tosh.
That should encourage everyone to book their summer holiday in the Austrian Alps.

In all honesty all I see is a contrail - water vapour created naturally at high altitude by standard aircraft as exhaust gases escape each engine. The appearance of the contail 'switching on and off' is purely due to the variation in humidity levels of the upper atmosphere through which the plane is passing.

You still haven't answered the question - WHY would anyone choose to do this (and at such heights that any effects on ground level would be negligible anyway - so the bees should be safe)? and WHY are 'they' filling the sky with holograms of aircraft.

Neither seems to serve any purpose.

[Musicology]

Hillwalker,

As you get older you may learn an intelligent conversation consists of several parts - the first of which is -

1. Establishing that a subject exists which is worthy of discussion

AND ONLY THEN -

2. Discussing what causes or has caused the phenemenon under discussion.

It seems to me you have real problems to accept the subject of chemtrails exists and is worthy of discussion.

And what limits you to discuss it ? Your unbelief.

Keep your unbelief. You will always be in the majority. This will be enough for you. It will justify your attitude, forever. Never question anything. Accept only what everyone else wants to believe. Although it stares you right in the face and every bee and and every tree dies in front of your nose. Never wake up because you don't want to believe you are sleeping. The entire world is waking up to the pollution of chemtrails. But not you. There will never be documentary, film, chemical and other evidence enough.

Let the bees tell you. If you are prepared to see their testimony. Better still. Just keep watching the mainstream media. Which knows nothing about it. And nor do politicians, newspaper editors or anyone else.



Austrian Tourist Board?????? Tosh.
That should encourage everyone to book their summer holiday in the Austrian Alps.

In all honesty all I see is a contrail - water vapour created naturally at high altitude by standard aircraft as exhaust gases escape each engine. The appearance of the contail 'switching on and off' is purely due to the variation in humidity levels of the upper atmosphere through which the plane is passing.

You still haven't answered the question - WHY would anyone choose to do this (and at such heights that any effects on ground level would be negligible anyway - so the bees should be safe)? and WHY are 'they' filling the sky with holograms of aircraft.

Neither seems to serve any purpose.

[MarkBastable]

Hillwalker,

As you get older you may learn an intelligent conversation consists of several parts - the first of which is -

1. Establishing that a subject exists which is worthy of discussion

AND ONLY THEN -

2. Discussing what causes or has caused the phenemenon under discussion.

It seems to me you have real problems to accept the subject of chemtrails exists and is worthy of discussion.

And what limits you to discuss it ? Your unbelief.

Keep your unbelief. You will always be in the majority. This will be enough for you. It will justify your attitude, forever. Never question anything. Accept only what everyone else wants to believe. Although it stares you right in the face and every bee and and every tree dies in front of your nose. Never wake up because you don't want to believe you are sleeping. The entire world is waking up to the pollution of chemtrails. But not you. There will never be documentary, film, chemical and other evidence enough.

Let the bees tell you. If you are prepared to see their testimony. Better still. Just keep watching the mainstream media. Which knows nothing about it. And nor do politicians, newspaper editors or anyone else.


Hang on. If this is true....


Keep your unbelief. You will always be in the majority.

..this can't be...


The entire world is waking up to the pollution of chemtrails. But not you.


Which is it? Does no one believe it to be true, or can everyone see that it is? If the entire world is waking up to it, he won't always be in the majority, will he?

[hillwalker]

It seems to me you have real problems to accept the subject of chemtrails exists and is worthy of discussion.

Finally you get the message.

In fact, judging by the feeble and fabricated 'evidence' you present the world, any sane person would take your personal attacks against those of us who do not subscribe to your nonsense with a pinch of.....

Oh no, hang on. Salt's poisonous as well, isn't it?

Be happy!

:willy_nilly:

[Musicology]

Yes, the entire world is waking up to the fact of chemtrails. {edit}







Hang on. If this is true....



..this can't be...




Which is it? Does no one believe it to be true, or can everyone see that it is? If the entire world is waking up to it, he won't always be in the majority, will he?

[rabid reader]

No, salt is not poisonous. You even got that wrong, didn't you ?

But don't worry about it. Chemtrails don't exist. It's all exaggerated.

As for personal attacks, no, although I wonder what sort of human being can see documented, video evidence of huge chemtrails from every continent in the world (thousands of examples) and still deny they are being sprayed. This is clear evidence chemtrails don't exist, isn't it ? {edit}
:willy_nilly:

Probably the same one who can watch Avatar and realize it isn't a documentary the smurfs inhabiting one of Jupiter's moons. Or maybe they're the same people who notice exhaust pouring out of any combustion engine and feel know fear of poison, beyond cracking the window of their garage.

And by the way Salt is a combination of Sodium and Chlorine which in their isolated states are poisonous.

[Musicology]

Rabid Reader,

You may not have noticed it but we are talking about Salt, and NOT about the 'isolated' states of Sodium and Chlorine. Are we ? We are actually talking about Salt. A substance so essential to life if we use none we lose our lives. Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases. But there is a combination of them which makes water. I promise I won't go too fast for you.

Glad we sorted that out !!

LOL !!


Probably the same one who can watch Avatar and realize it isn't a documentary the smurfs inhabiting one of Jupiter's moons. Or maybe they're the same people who notice exhaust pouring out of any combustion engine and feel know fear of poison, beyond cracking the window of their garage.

And by the way Salt is a combination of Sodium and Chlorine which in their isolated states are poisonous.

[Musicology]

No, Salt is NOT poisonous. Salt is essential for life. {Edit}
And then, moving on to something real simple. Chemtrails are the trails left by planes which are releasing chemicals. I hope this is not going too fast for you also. {Edit}

Thank You



Finally you get the message.

In fact, judging by the feeble and fabricated 'evidence' you present the world, any sane person would take your personal attacks against those of us who do not subscribe to your nonsense with a pinch of.....

Oh no, hang on. Salt's poisonous as well, isn't it?

Be happy!

:willy_nilly:

[hillwalker]

Fear not, I have returned to this thread after a weekend off (alien abduction - again - you know how difficult it can be to drag yourself away).


No, Salt is NOT poisonous. Salt is essential for life.

But you said yourself,


Table salt.... consists (mainly) of two deadly poisons, Sodium and Chloride

Thank you, Musicology, my little demonstration of quoting information out of context has proved valid. In the same way, any argument that relies on preposterous, emotive statements will rarely influence intelligent people because it so often renders itself ridiculous.


the people of England are fed up with dozens, hundreds of planes

They are literally in every sky in the United Kingdom

anyone who is still confused only needs to ask anyone who grew up in the 60's, 70's and 80's

Well I grew up during those years (some spent in London) and I have no idea what you are going on about - nor am I fed up with all these aircraft you refer to.

And as far as anhydrous strontium barium niobate (SBN) is concerned - it has indeed been used in laboratory conditions; individual crystals of SBN have been identified as an excellent medium for generating holograms. But I can find no evidence that vapour created from this compound would possess similar properties on a large scale.

Which brings us back to the questions you are at such pains to avoid answering :

WHY would anyone want to spray such a vapour into the stratosphere? Conditions there are so unstable that any potential holographic image would rapidly deteriorate due to the distortion and eventual dispersal of the vapour clouds.

WHERE are the hundreds of laser-firing 'guns' hidden? You would need several to generate a hologram sizeable enough to create the illusion of a sky filled with aircraft or alien spaceships.

and WHY on earth would anyone go to such ridiculously impractical lengths to make us believe the sky is full of imaginary aircraft anyway?

Of course, the internet has been full of hoax reports of the 'chemtrail' phenomenon for years, and as more and more loonies jump on the bandwagon the rumours will grow rather than fade. But I do wonder whether the scientific repositories of 'You-Tube' are sufficiently accurate and unbiased to promote valued research.
I could put a hoax video on there proving that the moon is made of cheese - but it still would not make my assertion an absolute and irrefutable fact.

And as already stated, contrails (or 'chemtrails' to those still fixated on the non-existent) occur at such heights that fall-out to the ground is negligible, if indeed there is any at all. Bees and trees are more at risk from herbicides, insecticides, intensive agriculture and deforestation than any so-called bio-chemical warfare.

But even if it were true, WHAT do you suggest is going on? Are they really trying to poison us all? Mass-medicate us with atmospheric Prozac? Are they trying to patch up the ozone layer, or reflect solar rays back into space to reduce global warming? Or are they genuinely trying to create a huge hologram over Southern England?

The mind boggles. But having said that, it might just be true - a new form of advertising, visible only from space. Because on my way back from the mother-ship I was amazed to notice that London had vanished from the bottom right-hand corner of the UK. And in its place there was just this huge image of the McDonalds 'Golden Arches' and the words 'I'm Loving It' underneath. Now that's what I call a really sinister biological weapon.....

Peace! H

Oh, and hidden away in the depths of the Internet, amongst all the uncorroborated facts regarding 'chemtrails' I found this infallible solution we could all make use of. So all is not lost.

http://educate-yourself.org/ct/goodbyects10jan02.shtml

Panic over after all, phew!

[qimissung]

Hillwalker and Yanni, in reference to whether or not salt is necessary to life or is poisonous: it is both. Here is a link that describes how salt can kill us. People in ancient China used it as a method of suicide. I'm not saying this is a great site, but it does describe quite simply how salt kills.

http://www.freedomyou.com/addiction/salt%20addiction.htm

Now I''l let you get back to your discussion, which you do seem to be enjoying quite a bit. :D

[applepie]

No, Salt is NOT poisonous. Salt is essential for life. {Edit}


Is it really? By definition, salts are nothing more than a chemical reaction between an acid and a base. It's an interesting compound, but I can think of a number that you wouldn't like in your system. Take the salt used to clear roads of snow, eat a decent bit for a few days, and how do you imagine that you would feel? It can be quite poisonous :D

[Musicology]

What we need are lots more chemtrails. With or without salt. They are an essential part of our modern landscape. Pilots should be employed to do nothing except make vast trails of chemicals in our skies in their unmarked planes, day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year. It's a growth industry. Nobody will complain. Except the bees and the plants, the birds and the insects. And who is listening to them ?

We should, between sips of our chlorinated and poisoned water, tolerate those who think we are fools.

[applepie]

What we need are lots more chemtrails. With or without salt. They are an essential part of our modern landscape. Pilots should be employed to do nothing except make vast trails of chemicals in our skies in their unmarked planes, day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year. It's a growth industry. Nobody will complain. Except the bees and the plants, the birds and the insects. And who is listening to them ?

We should, between sips of our chlorinated and poisoned water, tolerate those who think we are fools.

:lol: The evil government is out to get us from every avenue. They've poisoned the water, they're poisoning our skies... no wonder they pass so many silly laws. It must be to hide all of their "Kill the World" schemes :willy_nilly:

I'm sorry, but the idea that anyone would do any of this is ridiculous. It is far more reasonable that chemtrails are nothing more than water vapor and a bit of exhaust from jets. The type of full scale operation that you are talking of would be virtually impossible to engineer. More importantly WHY???. No one is denying the ability to spray anything. It was done with Agent Orange during the Vietnam war, so it is obviously possible, but all the instances of spraying be it for chemical warfare or crop dusting are done at a low altitude. At the altitudes which these chemtrails are found, there would be no impact on the ground, so what is really the point??? You have yet to provide any reasonable answer for why someone, or some government, or rather all the governments of the world are conspiring to do this.

As for the water, there are chemicals in the water, but I'll address the two you mention. Fluoride to help make sure that people get enough to promote bone and tooth help. There is chlorine to kill parasites and bacteria in the water. Because of these two things, people are healthier than they were 200 years ago. There are less instances of contaminated water, and fewer water born illness than ever. More to the point, altering water for health is nothing new. Why do you think people primarily drank fermented beverages, alcohol? It's because it was safer than water.

[The Atheist]

Fluoride ...

Uh-oh.

[applepie]

Uh-oh.

Am I going to die from Fluoride poisoning from drinking the tap water :D

[hillwalker]

I very much doubt it - but if you do, at least you'll have a nice set of teeth so you leave us all with a cheerful grin on your face.

Some local authorities have questioned the government's right to impose fluoridisation on everyone regardless of choice in order to cut down on tooth decay and help strengthen bones. They say it should be left to individuals whether or not they choose to take supplements or used fluoride toothpaste. But, of course, some people just don't know what's good for them.

A major reduction in childhood tooth decay as a result of fluoridisation is perhaps a benefit worth sacrificing our individual power of choice for..... and in those parts of the UK where groundwater/supply is naturally fluoridised (Peak District in particular) there are no signs of unnatural deaths when compared to the rest of the country's population. So I would say cross this particular concern off your list of things to worry about.

H (and yes, I still have all my own teeth!)

[Emil Miller]

I very much doubt it - but if you do, at least you'll have a nice set of teeth so you leave us all with a cheerful grin on your face.

Some local authorities have questioned the government's right to impose fluoridisation on everyone regardless of choice in order to cut down on tooth decay and help strengthen bones. They say it should be left to individuals whether or not they choose to take supplements or used fluoride toothpaste. But, of course, some people just don't know what's good for them.

A major reduction in childhood tooth decay as a result of fluoridisation is perhaps a benefit worth sacrificing our individual power of choice for..... and in those parts of the UK where groundwater/supply is naturally fluoridised (Peak District in particular) there are no signs of unnatural deaths when compared to the rest of the country's population. So I would say cross this particular concern off your list of things to worry about.

H (and yes, I still have all my own teeth!)


It may be beneficial as you suggest but it is wrong that any government is able to impose it on the population without their consent. A government wanting to introduce such a measure should explain the pros, and cons if there are any, and then put it to a referendum; the result of which should be adhered to.

[hillwalker]

I agree, in that there is no individual choice to opt out. I assume it was carried out for the greater good based on sound scientific research, and perhaps this particular measure (begun over 50 years ago) has indeed been proven beneficial.
Unfortunately, where water treatment is concerned, it probably is a case of 'all or nothing'.

[The Atheist]

Am I going to die from Fluoride poisoning from drinking the tap water :D

Crikey. There's more pseudoscientific nonsense around fluoride in water than just about any subject. The only reason it isn't seen so much nowadays is that with technological and historical advances in conspiracies, 9/11, chemtrails and 'flu/'flu vaccines are so much more fun.

Also, when "authorities" have been fluoridating water for half a century in some cases and no deleterious effects are shown, it gets a bit hard to keep up.

When fluoride was added to water here - around 1970 - the tinfoil-hatters went berserk.


It may be beneficial as you suggest but it is wrong that any government is able to impose it on the population without their consent. A government wanting to introduce such a measure should explain the pros, and cons if there are any, and then put it to a referendum; the result of which should be adhered to.

I won't get on to the imposition, because that would involve a political discussion, so I will just note that it is quite possible to buy non-fluoridated water.

[NikolaiI]

Crikey. There's more pseudoscientific nonsense around fluoride in water than just about any subject. The only reason it isn't seen so much nowadays is that with technological and historical advances in conspiracies, 9/11, chemtrails and 'flu/'flu vaccines are so much more fun.

Also, when "authorities" have been fluoridating water for half a century in some cases and no deleterious effects are shown, it gets a bit hard to keep up.

When fluoride was added to water here - around 1970 - the tinfoil-hatters went berserk

A word of warning - don't date anyone who is seriously concerned by flouride in the water. :p It's really not fun when you have to hear "You're really going to poison yourself by drinking that tap water?"

[Emil Miller]

Crikey. There's more pseudoscientific nonsense around fluoride in water than just about any subject. The only reason it isn't seen so much nowadays is that with technological and historical advances in conspiracies, 9/11, chemtrails and 'flu/'flu vaccines are so much more fun.

Also, when "authorities" have been fluoridating water for half a century in some cases and no deleterious effects are shown, it gets a bit hard to keep up.

When fluoride was added to water here - around 1970 - the tinfoil-hatters went berserk.



I won't get on to the imposition, because that would involve a political discussion, so I will just note that it is quite possible to buy non-fluoridated water.

I have nothing personally against fluoride in water, just so long as everyone got a say as to whether it should have been be administered in the first instance.

[The Atheist]

I have nothing personally against fluoride in water, just so long as everyone got a say as to whether it should have been be administered in the first instance.

That's why we have governments. It's not likely that everyone is informed enough to make a rational decision

[Emil Miller]

That's why we have governments. It's not likely that everyone is informed enough to make a rational decision

That's why I said that the pros and cons of implementing such a step should be made known before a referendum is held.

[kilted exile]

ah well so long as it is just england and not the UK I dont have any issue with it

[hillwalker]

On checking further, I discovered that currently only 10% of English counties now have fluoridisation of their water supply (mainly centred on the West Midlands). A number of counties successfully repealed the legislation in the 70's.
Of course, as kilted exile will agree, the problem would not apply in Scotland even if the water here was fluoridised because most Scotsmen take their whisky neat!!

[kilted exile]

just as a clarification my technologist head began to hurt so I gave up reading this thread before my earlier post - let them fluoride the water all they like. but I still stand by my unconcerned approach to the big evil people with their chemtrails ot being a concern so long as stays in "england"

[dafydd manton]

Dagnabitt, Musky, 15 years in the aviation field, and nobody told me. Have you ever heard of condensation? It's when a hot substance, such as an aero engine, exhausts in to a cold atmosphere, such as the airspace over Britain for about 300 days of the year. Cars do it at ground level. Please also bear in mind temperature loss at 1 degree F for every 300 feet, give or take. Factor in adiabatic lapse rates (simple enough). Then apply Bernoulli's principle at wing-tips or propellor tips, take into account the relative humidity, and you get a nice simple reason for the marks in the air. Without the fact that they caused Princess Di's death, or the Hurricanes that Michael Fish failed to predict.

[MarkBastable]

Dagnabitt, Musky, 15 years in the aviation field, and nobody told me. Have you ever heard of condensation? It's when a hot substance, such as an aero engine, exhausts in to a cold atmosphere, such as the airspace over Britain for about 300 days of the year. Cars do it at ground level. Please also bear in mind temperature loss at 1 degree F for every 300 feet, give or take. Factor in adiabatic lapse rates (simple enough). Then apply Bernoulli's principle at wing-tips or propellor tips, take into account the relative humidity, and you get a nice simple reason for the marks in the air. Without the fact that they caused Princess Di's death, or the Hurricanes that Michael Fish failed to predict.


You're obviously in on it - so you would say that.

Incidentally - how do you avoid poisoning your family?

[dafydd manton]

You're obviously in on it - so you would say that.

Incidentally - how do you avoid poisoning your family?

In on it? Not at all. How do I stop poisoning my family? Avoid going to McD.......:out:

[The Atheist]

Shill. I can spot 'em a mile off.

[MarkBastable]

Shill. I can spot 'em a mile off.

Quite. They're all in it together. Aviators. The Welsh. People who don't eat at MacDonald's. It wouldn't surprise me at all to discover that so-called 'Dafydd' was a shape-shifting lizard projected from the lower fourth dimension, as revealed by the only clear thinker in modern politics, David Icke. If you doubt it, just take a look at manton's avatar! Coincidence??? I think not!!!?????? And yet, despite all this indisputable evidence, some choose to pretend none of this is happening??!??!?!??!??!??!?!??!? Haha. I suppose it must be blissful to be ignorant!!!!!!!! You fools!!!!!!!!!!!!????!??!?!??!??!??!??!??!??!?!?

[dafydd manton]

Damn! My cover is blown! Just as I was going to reveal myself as Baron Greenback and take over the entire civilised world, including certain bits of Essex. All of which is as likely to happen as chemical spraying over the country. By the way, how do those people who are carrying out this heinous crime avoid the stuff themselves when eventually they run out of Avgas and have to come back down to earth? Are they the ones we see in NBC suits and respirators in the Organic section in Tescos?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I've heard of chem trails. Is the a part of the conspiracy theory that governments control, or are attempting to control the weather?

[The Atheist]

I've heard of chem trails. Is the a part of the conspiracy theory that governments control, or are attempting to control the weather?

Nothing so weak, unfortunately, They're spraying us with mind-control drugs and poisons.

here is some good background. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory)

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE=The Atheist;1041549]Nothing so weak, unfortunately, They're spraying us with mind-control drugs. [QUOTE]

Why would they need to? They do it easily enough without them.