Are animals homosexuals?

[blazeofglory]

This sounds a serious question. Doesn’t it? In fact today homosexuality is not a disconsolate idea and they have a society of their own and they have got enough recognition. A few years ago the idea of homosexuality suffered bowdlerization. But today they have a league of their own, and is a power, a force and they are a pressure group and have their associations and pacts globally.
Rather than ignoring it studying it at its very root is the need of the day. Now the issue is different. As questioning is a very exciting thing whether or not we can find the answer. I love questioning.
Now suddenly a question arises in me: Are animals homosexuals. Homosexuality is an urge, a drive within an animate being.
Of course the best way to arrive at truth is questioning and to this end to put questions to many persons.
If it is proved that animals too are homosexuals then homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. And its acceptance in society will grow eventually. Let us unfold the science of it
Today we live in a different era and there has come a sea change in our values. Today there has been great progress in a number of disciplines, whether it is science, or technology or philosophy or psychology or sociology or ethics. Of course we do not think the way our grandfathers thought and of course our sons and grandsons think differently. This is an evolutionary process.
Today we never leave anything unaddressed or unquestioned. We live in an age of doubt. Whether it is about the existence of God or any other ethical questions or sex we never refrain from asking. This is the age of science and our children were born in the eve of it and their logical minds always love questioning.
What makes them distinguishably scientific minded is their birth at a time which is scientifically and technologically significant in point of fact. And the age demands more daring from them

[Katy North]

Why yes, Blaze, certain kinds of animals do have homosexual relations:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p4021223452r617q/

[Jozanny]

What is this with the constant focus on same sex orientation? I find the question offensive and think the OP needs to reconsider how he wishes to promote discussion. I seriously doubt that any animal, even the apes most related to us, cognate on sexual activity as good or bad, right or wrong.

[OrphanPip]

Well compared to the other primates, which are our closest relatives and thus the most important to look at, homosexual acts are completely common place in pretty much all the other primates.

Chimps - yes
Bonobo - yes
Gorillas - yes
Orangutans - yes

Then you get some other examples
Sheep - amongst males yes
Dolphins - yes
Several species of birds - yes

In general it seems to be a trait associated with group living. It's adaptive benefit in different species is debatable. In dolphins and primates it is largely a bonding behavior used for social cohesion.

Now whether this were "natural" or not in humans is completely irrelevant in my mind. However, if pressed to give an answer I would definitely say, yes it is natural. Moreover, every year there is more and more evidence supporting a hereditary cause. Male homosexuals have more maternal male homosexual relatives than paternal, they are more likely to be born later in life, and they are more likely to have older siblings. There are also other correlations like the length of the index finger being longer in homosexual populations. What this evidence seems to point towards is a genetically determined maternal effect. Environmental effects and upbringing still play a part though, as we see a great deal of diversity in human sexual behavior and even classifying people as homosexual or heterosexual usual is forced to rely on standards of self-identification.

[Jozanny]

There are also other correlations like the length of the index finger being longer in homosexual populations.

But that correlation is not in and of itself evidence of any kind of set determinism, and I still think the OP is committing a fallacy in asking one huminoid species to put labels on other species on the evolutionary ladder.

Anyone with pets know most animals live in the moment. They have not developed religions or moral guilt. That is our baggage.

[OrphanPip]

But that correlation is not in and of itself evidence of any kind of set determinism, and I still think the OP is committing a fallacy in asking one huminoid species to put labels on other species on the evolutionary ladder.

Anyone with pets know most animals live in the moment. They have not developed religions or moral guilt. That is our baggage.

Not much in human behavior is going to be set deterministically, it's just too complex, but the existence of physical correlations is indicative of a genetic cause at some level.

Anyway, I fully agree that there is no way to draw any moral or ethical decisions out of what occurs in nature. I'm not labeling animals that practice homosexual acts as gay in the cultural sense, just merely pointing out that the acts occur in other animals. I don't think human behavior is all that removed from animals for comparisons to be completely meaningless in explaining our behavior. After all, most of what we know about human cell biology and embryology is extrapolated from experiments conducted on mice. Animals are useless if we want to learn HOW we should live, but they are very useful for determining WHY we live the way we live.

[BienvenuJDC]

What is this with the constant focus on same sex orientation? I find the question offensive and think the OP needs to reconsider how he wishes to promote discussion. I seriously doubt that any animal, even the apes most related to us, cognate on sexual activity as good or bad, right or wrong.

I would agree with Jozanny on this one.

[Paulclem]

The OP seems to think that homosexualty in animal seems to validate human homosexuality. I disagree that any comparison with animals can claim such validation - human issues are too complex, but my main objection is why should it matter? Adults make the choices they make, and I don't see why any justification is needed.

[The Atheist]

What is this with the constant focus on same sex orientation?

When a culture has been told that homosexuality is bad for thousands of years, the cultural construct becomes pretty hard to deconstruct in minds which have been thoroughly indoctrinated. The christian god killed a couple of cities for it, so it is clearly a Bad Thing. Most cultures have a bit a downer on it.

On the other hand, I'm a believer that we're all a little bit like Tom Sawyer, who frequently felt gay!

Surely, the example of men separated from women entirely proves this beyond a shadow of doubt? Some blokes in jail would kill you if you called them gay, but they will practice sodomy as an alternative to doing it for themselves. Boys in boarding schools? Sailors?

If you feel a little bit gay but the biggest daddy in the universe says gayness is a Bad Thing, for which you will be killed or sent to hell - or both - it probably causes some pretty strange feelings.

To see animals doing it will help with them understand that there is really no "natural" when it comes to sex.

I'm ok with that.

Of course, they could just go out and buy a dog!

:lol:


I find the question offensive and think the OP needs to reconsider how he wishes to promote discussion.

I'm sure Blaze meant nothing defamatory in the way these questions are being asked - he's one of the good guys. :D

He also is using English which infinitely better than my Nepalese, plus, he comes from quite different cultural norms.

[Katy North]

Of course, they could just go out and buy a dog!

Tis true!

We have two neutered male dogs.

They both seem to think that the other is da sexiest being on the planet.

I keep trying to explain to them that they can do anything they like to each other, as long as they do it behind closed doors.

Neither of them seems to listen... :frown2:

[RingoLass]

I believe, as an anthropologist, that we are all, as human beings, bisexual. This sounds shocking at first, but it really isn't. If we are honest with ourselves and consider humans as the animals that we truly are, we must make evaluations. The bonobo chimpanzees that we share 98% of the same DNA with are "hypersexual" or bisexual animals. If we add in the variable of culture to the hypersexual habits of human beings, we are NOT all considered homosexual but I think some of us connect ourselves with hypersexual instincts. So, what I am trying to get at is that animals are not homosexual as much as they are hypersexual.

[OrphanPip]

I believe, as an anthropologist, that we are all, as human beings, bisexual. This sounds shocking at first, but it really isn't. If we are honest with ourselves and consider humans as the animals that we truly are, we must make evaluations. The bonobo chimpanzees that we share 98% of the same DNA with are "hypersexual" or bisexual animals. If we add in the variable of culture to the hypersexual habits of human beings, we are NOT all considered homosexual but I think some of us connect ourselves with hypersexual instincts. So, what I am trying to get at is that animals are not homosexual as much as they are hypersexual.

I don't think we can really say that humans are naturally pansexual. The capacity for sexual malleability is not necessarily indicative of a blank slate shaped entirely by culture. The common chimpanzee is just as related to the bonobo as we are, yet they don't display identical sexual behavior either.

[Paulclem]

I believe, as an anthropologist, that we are all, as human beings, bisexual. This sounds shocking at first, but it really isn't. If we are honest with ourselves and consider humans as the animals that we truly are, we must make evaluations. The bonobo chimpanzees that we share 98% of the same DNA with are "hypersexual" or bisexual animals. If we add in the variable of culture to the hypersexual habits of human beings, we are NOT all considered homosexual but I think some of us connect ourselves with hypersexual instincts. So, what I am trying to get at is that animals are not homosexual as much as they are hypersexual.

The DNA argument doesn't hold up. The % DNA similarity is close to a number of animals. Also, I am unconvinced about the human/ animal behaviour relationship. So some aspects of Bonobo activity may resemble human activity. But, separated as we are by a million years (?) in evolutionary terms, how close is he totality of Bonobo behaviour to human behaviour- a lot less than 98% I reckon.

[Nightshade]

We had gay cats... unfortunatly both were unneutered and only indoor cats and well it got very very smell so we ended up getting rid of them when they started competing with spraying everything

The OP seems to think that homosexualty in animal seems to validate human homosexuality. I disagree that any comparison with animals can claim such validation - human issues are too complex, but my main objection is why should it matter? Adults make the choices they make, and I don't see why any justification is needed.

Paulclem I think what blaze is pointing out is that in alot of cultures where homosexuality is seen as wrong it is seen as 'unnatural' but if it occurs in nature then it can't be unnatural right? Also carrying that possible thread of thought forward (and before this upsets anyone I want to say this - this is only one way of looking at it and if you really look at a religion any religion it not this simplistic at all) God created nature perfectly the only creature with free will and choice being human. Animals can not sin. Animals practice homosexuality, therefore homosexuality can not be wrong. Obviously though religious views on sexuality and sexual orientationn are far far far more complicated and conveluted than that.

[*Classic*Charm*]

I think the real issue behind this question lies within the fact that there are only about two species other than humans that have sex for pleasure instead of reproduction. Animals don't look for romantic love the way people do, so an animal that may exhibit homosexual tendencies does not do so for the same reasons as a homosexual person. It's a scientific fact that homosexuals cannot have a child together, thus, their relationships are based on something outside the desire to reproduce. When animals exhibit sexual behaviour there is a biological or behavioural/psychological reason for it, not because they are seeking the romantic love/pleasure that is sought by humans.

Edited to add that I by no means mean to sound like homosexuals are a different species haha, nor am I saying that what I've referred to as "homosexual tendencies" are chosen/ consciously done. Upon re-read, it sounded kind of harsh so I thought I'd try to clarify :)

[Jozanny]

If there is one instance in which I miss the freedom of my ascerbic tongue as I freely applied it in the past, then this thread has got to be it. Homoerotic psychology makes for great melodrama within literary trajectories, as does conventional romance, and sex is important--indeed, one of the *dirty laundry* secrets in the disabled community is the premium birth crips place on finding able male or female partners, but it isn't that important, especially after menopause, at least from where I'm sitting. Orgasms are wonderful, and they ought to be given the high cost of pregnancy and child rearing, and good sex as an expression of intimacy is even a sacrament within certain Christian tautologies,tossing the Jesus lovers a bone--but after a while sticking a little burst in the bubble might be useful.

After awhile, really, who cares which part goes where? In the animal kingdom, mating generally exacts a high toll on males, be it elephant seals, lions, herd animals, or hamsters, who usually die in exhaustion after coitus, and in us, tacky becomes the norm eventually. I find Schama's lectures on art more interesting than my ex-fiance's lip drool, quite frankly.

[*Classic*Charm*]

All I'm saying is that when a female cow in estrus mounts another female or stands to be mounted by another female, it's not because she's sexually attracted to her, it's because she's signaling to the males that she's ready for them. This is not the case in homosexual people, therefore the entire subject is moot.

If you have a problem with something that has been said Jo, why not send the person in question a pm about it instead of passive-agressively accusing everyone of being melodramatic :)

[Scheherazade]

R e m i n d e r

Please neither personalise your arguments.

It would be a shame to close a thread on homosexual animals.

[Jozanny]

Sche's sense of humor is delightful, as always, and my mood swings are under double indemnity of late, but stop to think for a moment, if we arranged a Litnet meet at a tasteful restaurant like The Black Cat http://www.blackcatbistro.com/

Wouldn't the gender neutral portobello mushroom burgers in vinaigrette sauce be a more delectable topic of conversation?

Given the crowd that this forum caters to, and given my own experience with personal struggle, I would hope that a student who might be struggling with *coming out* would find more empathy in this community than this topic would seem to indicate, and yes, I will now go find a nicely flavored bar of soap and exit stage left.

Have fun.

[Paulclem]

We had gay cats... unfortunatly both were unneutered and only indoor cats and well it got very very smell so we ended up getting rid of them when they started competing with spraying everything


Paulclem I think what blaze is pointing out is that in alot of cultures where homosexuality is seen as wrong it is seen as 'unnatural' but if it occurs in nature then it can't be unnatural right? Also carrying that possible thread of thought forward (and before this upsets anyone I want to say this - this is only one way of looking at it and if you really look at a religion any religion it not this simplistic at all) God created nature perfectly the only creature with free will and choice being human. Animals can not sin. Animals practice homosexuality, therefore homosexuality can not be wrong. Obviously though religious views on sexuality and sexual orientationn are far far far more complicated and conveluted than that.

Hi Nightshade - I take your point on that - and sorry Blaze if I did not pick that up in your OP. The question is then about the cultural attitudes to animals. Would homosexuality in animals then validate homosexuality as natural in that culture? With the scientific perspective quite prevalent in Western democracies, we can assume this to be so. What about other cultures though? Do they equate the same human animal relationship?

[blazeofglory]

Confusion arose here and so were incongruent expressions about homosexuality. I have never supported or opposed them. Mine were objective views in point of fact. We must agree that homosexuality exists in nature and in human society. There were insurgences building about this question. Now they are not treated acerbically and of course they deserve our understanding and sympathy. There is nothing wrong or right about it. There is wrongness in our attitudes towards them; maybe our psychological bends, the way we have educated. If we are Christians or Muslims our educational values were as such sex was an abominable passion and the most righteous way is to avoid it. That eventually turned so many our priests, popes homosexuals, some rapists, paedophilic. When hormonal level rises within us we feel aroused and that is why even a cow mounts another cow. Somebody posted here that she is expressing her desire for a bull or a male. This is ludicrous. Sexual urges are powerful always seeking expression or enactment. Man masturbates when extremely aroused and this is not possible with animals. At times even for them, though sex is free there unlike in our Biblical, Hindu or Islamic social systems, yet coming across opposite sexes becomes not easy there as well and to gratify their pressing sexual urges they have to copulate with someone.
Let us think and do not mix it with our cultural issues. Somebody here commented: I am from a different culture. He indirectly criticized that my English was not good enough. This has nothing to do with what I had written. I just wanted to put across the audience here and if they could understand my OP that would gratify me.

[soundofmusic]

I'm pretty sure animals also masturbate.

[The Atheist]

Blaze - many animals do indeed masturbate.

No disrespect, but if you'd just get a dog for a few weeks, all these questions would be answered!

:D


Let us think and do not mix it with our cultural issues. Somebody here commented: I am from a different culture. He indirectly criticized that my English was not good enough.

I think you're referring to me, as I commented on it.

I certainly wasn't criticising your English; the exact opposite in fact - which is why I pointed out that it's a hell of a lot better than my Nepalese!

Your English is excellent, but as a non-native speaker, your style is different from those who have used it all their lives.

[soundofmusic]

Blaze - many animals do indeed masturbate.

No disrespect, but if you'd just get a dog for a few weeks, all these questions would be answered!
.

Yes, my neutered cat spends way too much time cleaning himself; he also frequently jumps on a stuffed toy cat...We hear him making these horrid sounds in the middle of the night; I used to think he was dying...No, he was making love with his stuffed girl:ihih:

This reminds me of a study on monkeys that I watched on a pbs channel years ago:

Researchers would give the monkeys coins for performance; the monkeys could trade the coins for treats. At the end of the day, all of the coins were collected. The researchers began to notice that the monkeys were not returning all of the coins; so they began to video tape their after hours behavior.
The male monkeys were taking their saved coins and offering them to the females; after receiving the coins, the females would have sex with the males:confused5:

[Jay]

LMAO!!! :p :D

[soundofmusic]

LMAO!!! :p :D

Thank you.