Book Buddies: The Alienist

[papayahed]

If you would like to take part in the group discussion of this book, please get your copies ready! We'll start reading on April 1.:auto:

[kasie]

Please may I join you? I have ordered a copy from Amazon but they are not promising delivery before April 6th, though they have been excelling themselves lately, so it may arrive before then.

[papayahed]

Please may I join you? I have ordered a copy from Amazon but they are not promising delivery before April 6th, though they have been excelling themselves lately, so it may arrive before then.

Of course!!:hurray: April 6th is plenty of time.

[Scheherazade]

I have got my book so ready to go as soon as you guys wave the flag!

[Scheherazade]

Some information on the book:
Some things never change. New York City, 1896. Hypocrisy in high places is rife, police corruption commonplace, and a brutal killer is terrorising young male prostitutes. Unfortunately for Police Commissioner Theodore Roosevelt, the psychological profiling of murderers is a practice still in its infancy, struggling to make headway against the prejudices of those who prefer the mentally ill - and the 'alienists' who treat them - to be out of sight as well as out of mind. But as the body count rises, Roosevelt swallows his doubts and turns to the eminent alienist Dr Laszlo Kreizler to put a stop to the bloody murders - giving Kreizler a chance to take him further into the dark heart of criminality, and one step closer to death.

[kasie]

My copy arrived from amazon yesterday but - so did The Girl who Kicked the Hornets' Nest from Waterstone's and it got here first so I started on that....But I'll catch you up soon...

Read the opening chapter and it's a good 'hook'.

[papayahed]

I started last night, so far I'm digging it.

[JuniperWoolf]

I'm still waiting for my copy to come in through the library. Should be any day now.

[Scheherazade]

I started last night, so far I'm digging it.Same here.

Read the first four chapters only but I am already hooked.

What I would like to know is that how much of this book is biographical and how much of it is fictional. Did a quick read in Wiki and Roosevelt's first wife Alice did die in the way it is described in the book and he indeed worked for the Police Department, reforming it.

However, are the other characters involved fictional or real? How about the incidents?

[kasie]

I'm just about half way through - took a little while to adjust to the pace of the writing but am now into the rather more leisurely pace of it, leisurely for a thriller, that is. And just for once, do not feel inclined to take a peep at the end to find out whodunnit. Well, maybe just a peep... but it didn't mean anything....hmmm, several characters have not turned up yet...

Scher - like you, I wondered how much is 'true' and how much is 'fiction'. I did a bit of back reading on Rooseveldt, as well. Perhaps Papaya can tell us Europeans how much is 'general knowledge' for the average American reader? I've recognised some other names, James of course, and some of the incidents would be verifiable, the newspaper stories of the day, for example, but I don't know how much fictionalised information is there as well. I also wonder how much of the glut of information is there to show how the character are picking the wheat from the chaff and/or how much is information overload so that we overlook vital clues.

I think I've spotted a bit of 'misdirection' at the end of Chapter 6. I'm not sure how far the rest of you have got in your reading: shall I go into it or wait until you have all passed that point.

Papaya, can you also give us a bit of background information about the book itself, if possible, please? A quick look at the publishing history tells me it must have made quite an impact around 1994/5 - first published, presumably in hard-back, in '94, then in paperback in '95 with three re-printings in the same year. Was there any reason for that?

Hope the rest of you are enjoying it as well.

[Scheherazade]

I didn't realise you had already got the book, Kasie. I was taking a bit slow so that we could start reading together in earnest.

I am finding the style captivating - even though I have to re-read some sentences.
I think I've spotted a bit of 'misdirection' at the end of Chapter 6. I'm not sure how far the rest of you have got in your reading: shall I go into it or wait until you have all passed that point.If you put a "spoiler warning", I am sure it would be OK to make comments.

SPOILER

Does anyone else find it interesting that Moore was in London during the Jack the Ripper episode?

[papayahed]

The main characters and the events surrounding the murders I believe are made up but I think the descriptions of the era, the places, and of course the historical figures are correct.

I read up a little about the author, on wiki it said the story is somewhat autobiographical. He grew up with an abusive father and was always interested on how childhood traumas/situations affected adults.

[JuniperWoolf]

Alright, I finally got it today. I'm going to start reading it now.

[kasie]

Sorry, folks - I forgot to say I had gone on ahead with the reading: I have actually finished it now but promise not to give anything away.

Thanks, papaya - if he is writing from 'personal experience', wow, that makes me shudder.

SPOLIER

End of Chapter 6: why don't they follow up who knew Kreisler et al were at the HQ - only a limited number of people could have thrown the missile into the cab.

re: SPOILER

It is mentioned though only briefly but I think it could be what piques his interest in the case.

[papayahed]

SPOLIER

End of Chapter 6: why don't they follow up who knew Kreisler et al were at the HQ - only a limited number of people could have thrown the missile into the cab.

re: SPOILER

It is mentioned though only briefly but I think it could be what piques his interest in the case.

It seemed odd at the time, and still does why Lazlo would let Moore just throw the "missile" out the window when it could have been very relevant. And it gets weirder when later Laszlo says he thought it was wrapped in the victims chemise..

[Scheherazade]

I am absolutely loving the book... Especially finding out about an aspect of New York that is not get covered much. Most fictional from those days concentrate on aristocratic or rich life styles. At times, the scenes I read (not necessarily the violence but the general cruelty and depravity) make me put the book down for a little while.

I am puzzling with the missile incident as well. It was something to do with Laszlo's writings, right?

Another puzzling thing for me: How did Sara know about their secret and offered to be the liason? Was she in the loop?

Do we know how tall Moore is?


Do we know how tall Moore is?Or Laszlo for that matter?

So, on a different note, who would you cast for the movie? :D

[Scheherazade]

I have read 2/3 (fell asleep on the sofa while reading tonight :-/) and it is becoming more or more interesting; especially the involvement of the churches and financial world.

I was thinking that the killer might be the illegitimate son of a priest or even a nun but seems like that is not the case.

As for casting... It is proving a little tricky as all the leading characters need to be more or less same age...

Laszlo - Robert Downey Jr?

[kasie]

[QUOTE=Scheherazade;876900]....Another puzzling thing for me: How did Sara know about their secret and offered to be the liason? Was she in the loop?......QUOTE]

Sara works at the police HQ as a secretary - she seems to be a personal appointment by Roosevelt himself as he wants to encourage the promotion of women. She meets Moore on his arrival at police HQ and seems to know the reason for his visit, presumably because she works for Roosevelt, and so can deal with the chance meeting with Kelly and Ellison. She then insinuates herself into the investigation by asking Moore to allow her to accompany him to visit the Santorellis, afterwards impressing Kreizler with her observations, which seems to be the reason he has her appointed to act as the liason between the investigation and Police HQ, as Roosevelt and Kreizler had agreed that they needed someone who would not be suspected by the old guard and who would suspect a woman!

It seems to me that her addition to the team completes the classic composition for an investigatory team: the Expert - Kreizler; the Chronicler - Moore; the police contacts/procedural experts - the Isaacson brothers; the contacts with the 'criminal world' - Cyrus and Stevie, who are also the useful gophers/drivers/odd job men; the Female Angle - Sara, who also acts as the person with insight and/or the different, 'outsider's', point of view. Roosevelt is not part of the team, as such: I think his role is Facilitator, the one who enables the team to get together and proceed with the investigation. The team in its turn enables Roosevelt to proceed with his agenda of dragging the Police Force into modernity and probity.

I have a problem with Connor - at what point does he leave the Police Force and why? He is a detective who discovers the Santorelli boy's body then all of a sudden he seems to be part of Ellison's team of enforcers.

[Scheherazade]

Finally I managed to finish it (even though I had to stay up till 2 am last night). It was an excellent holiday reading for me and I want to thank Papaya for recommending it :)

Kasie> Thanks for the explanation. I had to go back and read that part again. I overlooked the fact that she knew about their meeting when Moore went to meet Roosevelt.

I like the way you sum up the team composition.

I think Connor left the Police force after the confrontation with Roosevelt on the night of Santorelli murder.

*** SPOILER ***

Very upset about Mary... Why, oh, why?


Laszlo - Robert Downey Jr

Kirsten Dunst - Sara

I would like to see Ed Norton in this movie but not sure which part... Moore?

[kasie]

*** SPOILER ***

Very upset about Mary... Why, oh, why?.........

Oh dear, yes, I felt the same.

But structurally, it took Kreizler out of the investigation for a while and enabled the others to realise they could function without him and

****SPOILER******

it gives a reason for Connor's death in the final showdown.

But harsh, I do agree.

I'd like to thank papaya as well for bringing this book to my attention - my book-sharing friend says she has it but has not got round to reading it, so goodness knows when she might have got round to passing it on with a recommendation!

[Scheherazade]

How do you feel about books which bases what is fictional on factual? Like having "real" characters like Roosevelt in stories that are purely based on author's creativity?

I find a little hard to adjust while reading such stories; also, there might be many people who take such stories on their face value and accept them as facts.

[kasie]

Usually I don't much care for 'faction' with real people in imaginary situations - Shakespeare in Love sets my teeth on edge, for example. Friends laugh at me banging on about 'NO, no, no - that just would not happen!' but my point is exactly the one you make - that many people do indeed take the story as real because it's 'History'.

Here, however, I can accept Roosevelt as a character in the story because he is in the background most of the time: having set the team up, he then retires from the forefront of the story. Setting up the team with the desire to bring modern detecting methods into the NYPD seems to be in character for him, as he is portrayed in the book. Or is it that I accept him because my background knowledge of him as an historical person is shadowy, to say the least?

Has anybody read any of Frank Tallis' books about Leibermann - Mortal Mischief, Vienna Blood, Fatal Lies so far. They are an almost exact parallel, set in Vienna of the 1890s. The Investigating Officer, a very likeable man of many years' experience in the Vienna Police Dept, calls in the help of a young psychologist, Leibermann, who is working under Freud but does not always agree with the analyses of The Master. Together they tackle some intriguing and apparently insoluble crimes. They are very well written - the characters are as interesting as the puzzles: I raced through the second book, I was so concerned that Leibermann should not marry the wrong girl, then went back and read it more slowly because I had not been taking in the stages of the detection of the central crime!

[Scheherazade]

Here, however, I can accept Roosevelt as a character in the story because he is in the background most of the time: Actually this is why I am wondering why the author picked Roosevelt. The book was not based on him as such so why not pick a random name and make it all together fictional? Using Roosevelt's name so loosely makes it seem like he has been chosen for sake of sensation to me.

Has anybody read any of Frank Tallis' books about Leibermann - Mortal Mischief, Vienna Blood, Fatal Lies so far. Haven't read them, I am afraid.

I am wondering if this is really how the first female police officers were introduced into the system as well.

[kasie]

You may be right but the character that Roosevelt has been given - go-ahead, reforming, modernising, desire for probity - fits what is required for a Police Chief to do something as radical as make use of the services of a psychologist/alienist, who were regarded with suspicion at the time. And he was actually in the post at the time, so the author can't be accused of stretching history for the sake of the story. I don't know much about the character of the historical Roosevelt - perhaps our American Buddy can fill us in?

[Jay]

I am finding the style captivating - even though I have to re-read some sentences.
It took me a while to get used to the style, especially the 1st person narration part (not a fan) but it worked for this book. I found the multitude of episodic bits distracting (wanted Carr to get on with it already and not to keep me waiting ;)) since not all of them were relevant for the story, felt like spoon-feeding me the suspension unnecessarily, I was already there ;)


SPOILER
Does anyone else find it interesting that Moore was in London during the Jack the Ripper episode?
To me it seemed like pretty much the only reason to keep him for the investigation since as a reporter, what qualifications other than witnessing something like that before would he have? Being friends with the chief of the police and the mastermind might not be enough. At least from the beginning it seemed like it. I wouldn't say Moore wasn't helpful in the investigation but he was more of a sidekick who got to write down what he's lived through and providing the 'normal' angle since everyone else was an oddball compared to others.


How do you feel about books which bases what is fictional on factual? Like having "real" characters like Roosevelt in stories that are purely based on author's creativity?

I find a little hard to adjust while reading such stories; also, there might be many people who take such stories on their face value and accept them as facts.
Didn't bother me one bit that the chief of police was called Roosevelt. Sure, first person coming to my mind when reading the name was Roosevelt the president but other than there later being mentions about him going into politics the similarity ended there for me. I opened the book as a piece of fiction and was reading it as such. Sure, it did make me wonder if stuff mentioned in the book were based on facts, like the murder and serial killers, but it didn't make me go off and research 'till the wee morning hours :). Although, the mention of Holmes did make me grin but for a different reason... Supernatural nuts anyone? ;)

All in all I enjoyed the book although I wasn't very happy with the ending, it went downhill after Mary died, I didn't feel like Kreizler leaving the team was such a great thing. Would've been fine if in the end Kreizler had not made such a fuss about it... the last couple of pages just didn't do it for me, the book was great until they killed Mary off.

How did you guys feel about the (anti)climax?