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coberst
03-23-2010, 01:17 PM
STOP ARGUING!!

I cannot count the number of times that my mother would shout “STOP ARGUING!” at one or more of my siblings and me.

Years later I learned that ‘argument’ had more meaning than was contained in those youthful experiences.

I obtained an engineering degree and then later studied philosophies before I learned the much broader and important meaning of the word ‘argue’. When I studied “Logic 101”, in philosophy class, my worldview expanded significantly. I did not realize until later that this expansion of my worldview was to change my life completely.

It seems to me that the forum members who participate in a thread approach the experience invigorated with much the same attitude as does a boxer entering the ring or a soldier going into battle.

Metaphor entailments (to transmit or to accompany) we live by:
He attacked my argument.
I have never beaten this guy in an argument.
If you do not agree with my statement then take your best shot.
I shot down each of his arguments.

We approach a forum response much like we approach a physical contest. We have a gut feeling about some things because our sense of correctness comes from our bodies. Our “gut feeling” often informs us as to the ‘correctness’ of some phenomenon. This gut feeling is an attitude; it is one of many types of attitudes. What can we say about this attitude, this gut feeling?

Metaphors We Live By, a book about cognitive science coauthored by Lakoff and Johnson, says a great deal about this attitude. Conceptual metaphor theory, the underlying theory of cognitive science contained in this book, explains how our knowledge is ‘grounded’ in the precise manner in which we optimally interact with the world.

“The essence of metaphor is understanding one kind of thing in terms of another…The metaphor is not merely in the words we use—it is in the very concept of an argument. The language of argument is not poetic, fanciful, or rhetorical: it is literal. We talk about arguments that way because we conceive of them in that way—and we act according to the way we conceive of things.”—Lakoff and Johnson

Let us say that in early childhood I had my first fight with my brother. There was hitting, shoving, crying, screaming, and anger. Neural structure was placed in a mental space that contained the characteristics of this first combat, this was combat #1. Six months later I have a fight with the neighbor kid and we do all the routine thing kids do when fighting.

This is where metaphor theory does its thing. This theory proposes that the characteristics contained in the mental space, combat #1, are automatically mapped into the mental space that is becoming combat #2. The contents of combat #1 become a primary metaphor and the characteristics form the fundamental structure of mental space combat #2.

This example applies to all the experiences a person has. The primary experience is structured into a mental space and thereafter when a similar experience is happening the primary experience becomes the primary metaphor for the next like experience. This primary metaphor becomes the foundation for a concept whether the concept is concrete experience or abstract experience.

What I am saying is that for some reason the Internet discussion forum member considers engaging in a forum thread is a competition, it is a combat, and the primary combat metaphor is mapped into the mental space of this forum experience and thus the forum experience takes on the combat type experience. It seems to that is why lots of forum activity gets very combative.

Is it any wonder that the adrenalin starts pumping as soon as we start reading the responses to our post?

Do you feel like you are in a battle with me after reading my claims?

Is this why most replies are negative?

Another way that argument resembles war is that both in war and in arguments there is a great deal of bluff and bluster with little intellectual activity.

billl
03-23-2010, 01:25 PM
Excellent post. Glad to see you back!

coberst
03-23-2010, 05:35 PM
Thanks for missing me!

JuniperWoolf
03-24-2010, 03:49 AM
You're absolutely right... I've been debating older, wiser people than myself from the age of thirteen. It was always such a rush, I thought of it exactly as a battle (in fact, whenever someone would ask about it I would say something like "oh, I'm just fighting with some Americans about healthcare").

Even though I didn't know (or really care) at the time though, I really WAS bettering myself with debate (my knowledge base, competency and my awareness were vastly improved).

Great post!

The Comedian
03-24-2010, 07:44 AM
Excellent post. Glad to see you back!

I just wanted to say the same -- I don't always reply to your posts, but I read them.

coberst
03-24-2010, 09:23 AM
I just wanted to say the same -- I don't always reply to your posts, but I read them.

I post in the hope that my work might arouse the curiosity of the reader to the extent that the reader will go to the books to discover more about the subject.

kurious
03-24-2010, 10:13 AM
Hey Coberst, glad to see you are posting again, missed you.

coberst
03-24-2010, 04:56 PM
Hey Coberst, glad to see you are posting again, missed you.

Thanks for missing me.

dizzydoll
03-29-2010, 12:21 PM
Thanks for missing me.

You dont know me, but what's not to miss? You are very creative in your expression. :thumbsup:

Lote-Tree
03-29-2010, 12:39 PM
Is it any wonder that the adrenalin starts pumping as soon as we start reading the responses to our post?


Not at all. I'm quite calm in this respects.



Do you feel like you are in a battle with me after reading my claims?


Not all all. I prefer people who debate with passion.



Is this why most replies are negative?


What do you mean by negative?

Challenging it should be.



Another way that argument resembles war is that both in war and in arguments there is a great deal of bluff and bluster with little intellectual activity.

In arguments people don't usually die - in war people do.

dizzydoll
03-29-2010, 12:43 PM
In arguments people don't usually die - in war people do.

Agreed, and I enjoy watching a passionate debate while I learn.

btw, enjoy the full moon tonight too :gnorsi: ain't he so cute

AuntShecky
03-29-2010, 02:14 PM
The "competition" you mention or oneupmanship might be one of the reasons the U.S. is in the mess it's in. For instance, the free-for-all gameplaying on Wall Street
that nearly destroyed the economy.

There's nothing wrong with presenting an argument, provided that the person taking a particular side backs it up with the proper "ammunition," so to speak. The effectiveness of the argument depends on how cogent his or her points are, not on "passion," or deep-seated beliefs, or knee-jerk ideological positions or ad hominem name-calling.

As the old saying goes, "Everybody has the right to his own opinion, but nobody has the right to his own facts."

Oniw17
03-29-2010, 02:31 PM
Arguing over things that didn't matter is actually almost the sole thing I did to keep form being bored during basic training. People always complianed because I could make an argument which was absolutely erroneus seem logical with the skills that I gained from internet debates and playing off the slight ignorance of my competitors in certain subjects. So many times my fun could've been foiled if someone had only known what made their position right and mine wrong. however, i would never say that I never lost an argument, I was doing that almost half the time from when I was 10 to halfway through my 16th year... that's what made me start constructing my arguments so completely instead of just saying whatever comes to mind. It's funny though, now when I go on the internet I just talk about myself and am amused by my narcissism. It's not so much about the competition any more.