The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!

[yanni]

Alternative Title: The Manufactures of Beethoven and Goethe (In continuation of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46636 The Manufacture of Mozart)

This is an open invitation to all musicloving readers to participate in solving the title's puzzle

IE

to find the identity of the franciscan monk "Wiilibald Koch" said to have taught piano to Beethoven sometime before 1781, his possible family link to his contemporary lexicographer Heinrich Christoph Koch (a musicology puzzle himself), or to the other many Beethoven related Kochs, a family owning a high class tavern known as the Zehrgarten in Bonn run by the widow Koch(Anna Maria),around 1790,where the Beethovens used to dine or his/their link to a highly admired (Weimar, Leipzig, Hamburg and Vienna) theaterman, Gottfried Heinrich Koch (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Gottfried_Koch) or, finally his/their eventual link to a "Samuel von Cocceji (ursprünglicher Name: Koch oder Cocq)".

Clue:

A letter by Ludwig's brother quoted herebelow

to the publisher Johann André in Offenbach:
Vienna, 23 November 1802
Dear Sir:
We have received your letter asking for some of my brother's pieces, for which we thank you very much.
At the moment we have nothing but a symphony and a grand piano concerto, each priced at 300 florins.[5] If you should want three piano sonatas I shall have to have 900 florins for them, all in Viennese currency, and these you cannot have immediately, but one every five or six weeks, as my brother doesn't bother much any more with such trifles, but writes only oratorios,[6] operas, etc.[7]
We would expect eight copies of any piece you might print. In any case, whether you care for the pieces or not, please answer, because otherwise I would be delayed in selling them to somebody else.
We also have two adagios for violin with complete instrumental accompaniment[8] which would cost 135 florins, and two little easy sonatas of two movements each which are yours for 280 florins. Please give my best wishes to our friend Koch. Your most humble
K. v. Beethoven
R. k. Treasury Official[9]

Note: Johann André relates to the creation of Mozart myth having "collected" the greatest part of Mozart's correspondence following his 1791 "death". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Andr%C3%A9

Prize: The winner may chose between a box of turkish delight or a bottle of greek ouzo!

Good luck.

[Musicology]

Any link between Herr Willibald Koch (organist of the Franciscans at Bonn) and Gioacchino Cocchi would certainly be of interest. Especially since Gioacchino Cocchi died on 11th November 1796. The letter you have quoted dates from 1802.

For the record, the Koch family are known to have been organ builders for centuries. In Moravia and Eastern Europe.

Perhaps more interesting is one F.X. Kuhac (Koch). Croatian musicologist and music critic. (1834-1911). He pointed out the Croatian origin of several of Beethoven’s and Haydn’s themes -

‘Beethoven i hrvatske narodne popover’ - Beethoven and his use of Croatian folksongs‘, Prosvjeta, ii (1894), 17–19

Frankly, I do not see any link between G. Cocchi (d.1796) and the organist Koch associated with early Beethoven. But maybe you can surprise us. I do not rule it out but it seems unlikely for the above reason.

In my opinion there were different branches of the Koch family. Not just one. Who were musically active over centuries. Unless you have hard evidence that the Koch of Bonn was one and the same person as G. Cocchi I don't see any progress on this issue. I remain convinced we are talking here of a network of composers, editors, publishers and propagandists. This is as true of Mozart as it is of early Beethoven. Since they shared the same patrons etc.

Anyway, you might tell us if you have some information. As I will do the same.

Regards

[Musicology]

Here is an entry from the website of the Beethovenhaus museum in Bonn -

In autumn 1792 Beethoven left his hometown Bonn to move to Vienna. On his departure his friends presented him with a Stammbuch (farewell album). The second album belonged to Babette Koch, who later became Countess Belderbusch, with whom Beethoven was closely associated in his youth. It is bound in blue silk and contains 41 entries. These albums form an important addition to the few documents pertaining to Beethoven's youth in Bonn.

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php/35591

[Musicology]

And here is a painting of Babette Koch (1771-1807). She was therefore around the same age as Beethoven himself at the time when that album was made.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Babette_Koch.jpg

Belderbusch of Anna Barbara, nee Koch (June 28th 1771 in Bonn, † November 25 1807) was a childhood friend of Ludwig van Beethoven and the wife of Anton Maria Karl von Belderbusch.

Babette named Anna Barbara Koch, came from the host family of the inn on the square Zehrgarten of Bonn, which included also a small bookstore. Many guests were students at the Rheinische Friedrich-Wilhelms University, Bonn, as well as members of the * reading society*, including Ludwig van Beethoven, with whom she had friendly relations. June 1802 married Count Anton Maria Karl von Belderbusch and lived with him at Castle Miel. Sie verstarb 1807 bei der Geburt ihres vierten Kindes. She died in 1807 at the birth of her fourth child.

Of people and life in Bonn, at the time of the young Beethoven and Babette Koch Belderbusch. Neue Forschungserkenntnisse . New research findings. In: Bonner Geschichtsblätter 23/1969 . In: Bonner Geschichtsblätter 23/1969. S. 51-121. P. 51-121.
Max Braubach (Hrsg.): Die Stammbücher Beethovens und der Babette Koch . Max Braubach (ed.): The stock books of Beethoven and Babette Koch. Bonn 1995, ISBN 3-88188-008-9 . Bonn 1995, ISBN 3-88188-008-9.
Josef Niesen: Bonner Personenlexikon . etc.

//

We know for certain the Bonn Reading Society was an Illuminatist meeting place. That Waldstein and others (noted patrons of the young Beethoven) were associated with it, as was the Bonn music publisher Simrock, and also Ch. G. Neefe. So that the Koch family moved in those circles. And that there is clear evidence of British aristocratic support for the Bonn elector coming from England. Then we also know that Beethoven's family were financially helped by the British through George Cressner, the British representative to Bonn around the time of Beethoven's childhood.

When we reduce these things to their most basic state, we are left with the fact that the 'secularisation' of those times, culturally, involved patronisation from within the Holy Roman Empire and also from elites of the British mercantile empire of the musical careers and reputations of Haydn, Beethoven and also Mozart.

Later still was association in Bonn with Mozart's career through numerous fraternal people. Including Baron Knigge. (Who, we know for sure, was patronised financially - and his father before him - by the royal family of England). This is the same Baron Knigge who is credited with writing the first German text of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' (later published at Bonn by Simrock). Or, at least, his daughter. Though this too is disputed.

//



//

[yanni]

You'll never solve any puzzle like this, halfheartedly and at a loss whom or what to trust, what's right, what's wrong.

Before touching Weimar's "Cocqs"-a prerequisite for any beginner's initiation-check, verify and confirm:

a)Cocchi's year of death: 1796, you say but there are certain trustworthy sources online who claim he died post 1804 (following my relative wrong input some three years ago) and your source is "Grove", hah-hah.
Cocchi (or a younger brother perhaps but on a 10% propability) died 1819 in Vyborg.

b)"Belderbusch", who is included in the french lexicon of famous aliases (the book's actual title fails me but it pops up when you google for the name), Caspar Anton von der Heyden genannt Belderbusch (* 5. Januar 1722 in Montzen; † 2. Januar 1784 auf Schloss Miel bei Bonn) war Deutschordensritter und Premierminister in Kurköln ......and another alias of Cocchi, but we'll leave that lie a while, along with the missing "Koch leaves", the mysterious music autographs"!!

c)Organ builders family, as you rightly say, but the first "Kochs" came to Bohemia from Mugello, Tuscany (and some other Cocchis from Livorno), all florentine Cocchinis-Caccinis, bringing their instruments and music archives along!

d)Anyone remotely associated with music may easily link and identify Heinrich Christoph Koch to/as Rousseau, Gluck, Grimm, Philidor and many other "etceteras" since "they" all shared the same revolutionary-reformist new opera theories and furthermore musicology today totaly, absolutely and miserably fails to explain the broad and deep opera music knowledge of any and all the above. There are countless indications of "their cooperation" in specific operas, some of which have already been highlighted. Their use of winds and later flute introduction (look for relative Koch museum-items, specificaly a 10 or 14 Horns-Harmonica combination) are other strong indications. The french (Caussin or Cochin)are well known still as violin manufacturers.

e)We already discussed Knigge and his relations to "Saint Germain" and the german Illuminati (as we did Goethe's relations to von Gleichen-Russwurm) and I'll certainly not discuss "Mozart's" Figaro again.

All the above are neccessary only in the absence of an "all aliases mastertimeline" which confirms, beyond reasonable doubt, that Cocchi, omnipotent and tireless indeed, is the father of "modern european opera", his (Gluck's) operas the grandchildren of Giulio Caccini's Novela Musica and Orpheo!

"Love never dies", as the phantom now claims, but, instead of a prize, I'll have to charge you a fee if you keep on asking for guidance.

BTW There propably was one and only Waldstein: "Mine", ie Casanova's/Myslivecek's, ie "Koch" Cocchi who was provided a cover (as Waldstein serving in India etc) when his biography was written, much later.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I am not trying to solve any 'puzzle' about Koch. You are. Because you invented the puzzle yourself.

I have taken the time to give you some information about Koch, inn-manager in Bonn. Who was friendly with Beethoven's father. Whose daughter was friendly with the young Beethoven.

So it's less than 24 hours and you have again invented another alias.

Because you believe the Franciscan monk in Bonn (also named Koch) was the same person as Gluck. Alias Rousseau. Alias Baron Grimm. etc.

So now there are no less than two Kochs in Bonn. Both of these (we assume) aliases of the same person. The organist at Bonn, Willem Koch. And he is a different person from Koch, the inn manager at Bonn, isn't he ? Or is he still another alias ? Why use the name of Koch if he wishes to hide his 'alias' (Cocchi) ? Why not 'Smith' or something else. It gets more silly by the minute.


I tried to help you with the above information. And now I'm a little busy. Believe as you please. You have no information any of these people were G. Cocchi (alias Rousseau, Gluck, etc etc etc etc).

If you find any information on the third Koch, the musicologist who published a book on contemporary music in 1793 (also another alias ?) do let us know. Because this is silly. G. Cocchi died in Venice in 1796. His wife had died some years earlier. The grave site is still there in Venice and can be seen. In fact, an inscription marks the place in the church (of S Giovanni Grisostomo) where he and his wife lie buried, close by the theatre where he made his Venetian début. Honest ! Would you like a picture of it ?

And here are lots more Kochs - (no doubt further 'proof') -

Christian Julius Andreas KOCH [Parents] was born on 14 Nov 1809 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He died on 15 Feb 1882 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He was buried on 18 Feb 1882 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He married Friederike Johanne Louise Hedwig NÜSSE on 6 May 1838 in Dassensen now Einbeck.

Friederike Johanne Louise Hedwig NÜSSE [Parents] was born on 13 Nov 1813 in Dassensen now Einbeck. She died on 5 Mar 1865 in Dassensen now Einbeck. She married Christian Julius Andreas KOCH on 6 May 1838 in Dassensen now Einbeck.

They had the following children:

F i Johanne LOUISE Wilhelmie KOCH was born on 26 Jun 1838 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M ii Heinrich Carl Christian WILHELM KOCH was born on 17 Dec 1840 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M iii CHRISTIAN Friedrich Wilhelm Ludwig KOCH was born on 6 Oct 1842. He died on 3 Apr 1925.
M iv August CARL Ludwig KOCH was born on 27 Oct 1844 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
F v Johanne Wilhelmine Louise Charlotte KOCH was born on 13 Dec 1846 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M vi Ernst August Wilhelm KOCH was born on 20 Feb 1849 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He died on 24 Apr 1849 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M vii Heinrich Wilhelm Ernst AUGUST KOCH was born on 27 Mar 1851 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He was buried on 24 Feb 1883 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
F viii Johanne Louise FRIEDERIKE KOCH was born on 11 Aug 1854 in Dassensen now Einbeck.


/

[yanni]

You miserly failed to comment in detail to my points and, as expected, selected to focus on the wrong Coqs exclusively, trying deperately to avoid the evident size of whole issue that will haunt -mainly british written-18th cent "history" for ever.

Furthermore you still exhibit the same diversifying tactics in a very unwellcome and crude manner failing to add to your "other Kochs", "botanist" Wilhelm Daniel Joseph Koch, for obvious reasons:

(March 5, 1771 - November 14, 1849) was a German physician and botanist from Kusel, a town in the Rhineland-Palatinate.

Koch studied medicine at the Universities of Jena and Marburg, and afterwards was a Stadtphysicus (state physician) in Trarbach and Kaiserslautern (1798). In 1824 he became a professor of medicine and botany at the University of Erlangen, where he remained for the rest of his life. At Erlangen he was also director of its Botanical Gardens. In 1833, he was elected a foreign member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.

He best known written work was a treatise on German and Swiss flora titled Synopsis florae germanicae and helveticae (1835-37). Another noteworthy publication of his was Catalogus plantarum florae palatinae (Catalogue of Palatinate Flora) (1814).

The plant genus Kochia from the subfamily Chenopodioideae is named after him. (Wiki).

A pitifull fool's performance cannot go on forever: Get lost!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You theory is half-baked. You have succeeded in confusing everyone who has come in contact with it.

So now we have 3 Kochs. One is an organist in Bonn. Another is a hotel manager (whose daughter was friendly with the young Beethoven). And a third is a musicologist who, in 1793, wrote a work on contemporary music.

Not forgetting Wilhelm Daniel Joseph Koch (botanist) who was born in 1771. Was he Gluck also ? And Rousseau ? And Baron Grimm ? And G. Cocchi ?

One tries, hard, to understand what you are actually saying. And, having tried, one retires to ponder on the workings of your mind in respect of Cocchi and the rest of the universe.

The 'wrong' Kochs were refered to ? But they were introduced by you, weren't they ?

'I who was once lost........'

JSB
Cantata 39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbywKZVYZ1s&feature=related

And finally, since you no longer welcome discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyCTYtL5A-M&feature=PlayList&p=66E67B09C0508DC5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=60


Regards



You miserly failed to comment in detail to my points and, as expected, selected to focus on the wrong Coqs exclusively, trying deperately to avoid the evident size of whole issue that will haunt -mainly british written-18th cent "history" for ever.

Furthermore you still exhibit the same diversifying tactics in a very unwellcome and crude manner failing to add to your "other Kochs", "botanist" Wilhelm Daniel Joseph Koch, for obvious reasons:

(March 5, 1771 - November 14, 1849) was a German physician and botanist from Kusel, a town in the Rhineland-Palatinate.

Koch studied medicine at the Universities of Jena and Marburg, and afterwards was a Stadtphysicus (state physician) in Trarbach and Kaiserslautern (1798). In 1824 he became a professor of medicine and botany at the University of Erlangen, where he remained for the rest of his life. At Erlangen he was also director of its Botanical Gardens. In 1833, he was elected a foreign member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.

He best known written work was a treatise on German and Swiss flora titled Synopsis florae germanicae and helveticae (1835-37). Another noteworthy publication of his was Catalogus plantarum florae palatinae (Catalogue of Palatinate Flora) (1814).

The plant genus Kochia from the subfamily Chenopodioideae is named after him. (Wiki).

A pitifull fool's performance cannot go on forever: Get lost!

[yanni]

Why did you fail to mention Prussia's (Frederick the Great's) chancellor, Samuel Cocceji, and "his son", theater manager Gottfried Heinrich Koch (ie Carl Ludwig Cocceji, years ago identified as "Comte de Saint Germain" elsewhere)?

Was their link to Caspar Anton von der Heyden genannt Belderbusch (* 5. Januar 1722 in Montzen; † 2. Januar 1784 auf Schloss Miel bei Bonn)....Deutschordensritter und Premierminister in Kurköln not obvious enough or, on the contrary, too obvious for you to research or at least repeat and hence highlight?

There is no other "valid method" to establish the identities of his aliases (he was powerfull enough to have all church registers altered- he owned churches- and there is evidence he did, faking most of his marriages and all of his deathes but one) but a detailed timeline!

The more aliases are added to my list (after testing them in my mastertimeline) the easier it gets for any sincerely interested researcher to dispute them by proving anyone's presence at a different time-place than any other of Cocchi's aliases.

Go ahead and do it (but you repeatedly chickened out my pevious re calls, didn"t you?) or verschwinde!

[Musicology]

Well, I did try.

Best wishes with your family history research. It seems to get more complicated by the moment. Anyway, I've given my opinion.

Regards

[yanni]

On the contrary, the initiative you took, to participate in this site because of my threads on Cocchi and the relative debate that followed forced me to address his music side -that I had rather neglected previously as of secondary importance-and was thus able to "simplify" and complete my relative research irrespectively of your expressed opinions and whatever motives.

Very few people indeed would today dare suggest current-even!-politics, diplomacy and secret services may be "simply" explained and, until you came along, there has been noother on record, ever (except perhaps "Foucault's pendulum" author), who made it (simplicity) a prerequisite in solving two, at least, major 18th century puzzles, those of "Le comte de Saint Germain" and "The phantom of the Opera", both highly political, diplomatical and.....secret!

Saint Germain is rumored to have used some 1000 aliases and I really never counted how many I have discovered thus far, many because of you (acting as the bear). I'll propably open an aliases-list thread shortly herein.

My compliments for being so instrumental in solving most other 18th cent music mysteries as well, along with your "manufactured Mozart".

I do thank you and best of luck with your simple book!


Furthermore, addressing all "Koch" genealogy researchers: I am willing to accept a modest bet, say 500 EUR, that the "widow" Koch of Vienna, Anna Maria, was one of Cocchi's-Koch's wives (posssibly Gluck's Maria Anna Bergin), that Daniel Koch, the botanologist, one of his (von Gleichen's) sons and that he (Bonn's "late" Koch) was the same man as Wiilibald Koch, von der Heyden-Belderbusch, lexicographer Heirnich Christoph Koch and Weimar's theaterman Gottfried Heinrich Koch. The bet will still be valid and settled even in the case of a Cocchi brother among them.

My Regards and best wishes to all, including all music loving american Kochs :Angel_anim:, needless to say!



Well, I did try.

Best wishes with your family history research. It seems to get more complicated by the moment. Anyway, I've given my opinion.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The entire history of mankind has been the search for and the discovery of (or the rejection of) its underlying and fundamental simplicity. A court may wade through a ton of evidence to find and establish the truth of a matter. But, when it finds it, and when it establishes it there is the truth before them.

The difference between the things men invent and that which is real, is that all man makes within his world becomes ever more complicated, while all we discover of creation (which is the context within which his rebellion is made) is seen to be ever more elegantly simple. So simple our process of searching begins all over again to find yet more simplicity. Since human nature resists reality.

I cannot agree our method should be one of complexity. It should be one of simplicity proving, over and over again, that it, simplicity, is the only method we can sensibly use when we are navigating through this complicated (man-made) world in which we live.

Best wishes. I will not bet with you on Cocchi and the Bonn innkeeper's daughter. I say instead you might, in a moment of simplicity, focus on her, and establish what is simple about her in respect of the subject that engages your time and talents. Since that simplicity would certainly be worth you and I knowing. And sharing. For sure.

Regards

[yanni]

In your search for simplicity you propably never met a Terese from Missolonghi, an alleged widow who has stolen my heart and mind long ago, so go ahead and ask for yourself the hand of Bonn inkeeper's daughter, Babette Koch, from her godfathers, famous musicoilogists today in USA!

Alternatively you may indulge in reading "North German opera in the age of Goethe" by Thomas Baumann, to learn everything required "Ueber die Kochische Schauspielergesellshaft" and their repertorio (or shall I say repertoire?) the unexpected loss, Jan, 1775, of their manager Koch (who had a flare for tragedy but preferred comic opera for his german audience-and , from another source, a ballet master brother*-husband of Franziska) and his wife, Franziska Koch, a famous singer of her time who drowned her sorrow to sing then (in tune but on and off only) with Wieland and Benda "Romeo and Juliette" and "Alceste", the first german opera seria. Gluck is also frequently mentioned in this book but there is no apparent relation to Mme Koch or Wielands "Alceste" whatsoever.

When finished, you may then Google for "Goethe+ Koch" to find the roots of sturm und drang (et tu, Johann Georg Hah-hah Hamman?)and "Doctor Faustus"-Koch who taught Goethe history and constitutional law in Strassburg (a few elementary lessons only I fear)....besides elementary music and drama as well.

As simple as that (excepting composer Anton Schweitzer-as swiss as Gaspard, yes!-whose extensive and well sourced biography may trouble you for a while http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Schweitzer)

....and, btw, "Carl Ludwig Cocceji", Bohemia's president, was very much alive in 1802 and celebrated his 50 year service jubileum.

Here is a what he looked like then: http://www.peusshares.com/aukdo/AukDetail.php?id2=2&TaskId=5&ik1=00033&ik2=Auktion_378-379&id1=639267

Good luck, best regards..and Please give my best wishes to our friend Koch ("letzter version" below). Your most humble :Angel_anim:

http://de.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=ADB:Koch,_Heinrich_Gottfried&oldid=1002644 (Version vom 14. März 2010, 05:46 Uhr UTC)


*Gasparo Angiolini or "Giuseppe Canziani", known also as a composer, already identified by Yanni as another "Cocchi" in previous posts. An Angiolini, his son or perhaps his nephew Pietro, a choreographer(+1830), sold some Casanova writings to Brockhaus around 1820.



:driving:

[Musicology]

From my perspective (as a reader of your posts) the difficulty is not in the mechanical collection of individual bits of information on people named Cocchi, or even their association with the cultural/musical world of the 18th century. It is to distill this information in to a coherent account of how, if at all, this has any bearing on the lives and careers of the real Beethoven and Mozart. Since an intensive study of a family named 'Brun' or 'Schmidt' could achieve similar results. And, as you say yourself, if a man uses dozens, even hundreds of pseudonyms your task becomes ever more complicated, and not less so.

Therefore, I suggest (and already have) you should focus, if you can, on the connections between the Cocchi's of early Beethoven's time. Those associated with his early career. So that we might see from you, Yanni, a rare and useful report on their role in the life and career of, say, Beethoven, or Mozart. But, outside of that, the subject has no interest for me personally.

Regards

[yanni]

On second thoughts, reader of my posts (what happened to musicology I wonder?), you did earn your turkish delight afterall!

As soon as I finish "The founder of Neoclaccisism", "The real Rousseau", "The real comte de Saint Germain", "How a Francogerman alliance created USA", "Raynal's Napoleon and v.v" and "What Casanova had in mind when chosing this specific alias" (to name but a few at random) I'll then come back to the manufacture of your Mozart, Beethoven and Goethe, as required, for sure!

Or shall I perhaps resurrect Tolstoy to rewrite his lethargic War and Peace?

:smilielol5::smilielol5: (Brun and Schmidt)



From my perspective (as a reader of your posts) the difficulty is not in the mechanical collection of individual bits of information on people named Cocchi, or even their association with the cultural/musical world of the 18th century. It is to distill this information in to a coherent account of how, if at all, this has any bearing on the lives and careers of the real Beethoven and Mozart. Since an intensive study of a family named 'Brun' or 'Schmidt' could achieve similar results. And, as you say yourself, if a man uses dozens, even hundreds of pseudonyms your task becomes ever more complicated, and not less so.

Therefore, I suggest (and already have) you should focus, if you can, on the connections between the Cocchi's of early Beethoven's time. Those associated with his early career. So that we might see from you, Yanni, a rare and useful report on their role in the life and career of, say, Beethoven, or Mozart. But, outside of that, the subject has no interest for me personally.

Regards

[Musicology]

Yanni,

If an obscurantist is awarded a Nobel Prize I will write to complain bitterly against that decision - showing by your numerous posts they are ignoring your own prodigious talents in that field.

:yesnod:

[yanni]

Your bitterness will go away soon as you taste the prize you rightly won!

It's time you get busy checking and rewriting your http://www.italianopera.org/articoli/newmanCONCERTI.html: Most if not all of your "unknowns" have disappeared (via Carl Ludwig Cocceji-Belderbusch and his absolutely revealing -for me as well-relations to elector Max Frantz among other).

"Carl Luwig Cocceji-Belderbusch" fully explains Beethoven's as well as Luchesi's devotion and indebtness to him eversince Maximilian Friedrich's office as Kurkoeln Elector.

(As Thayer reports) "...he was a good-natured, friendly man who left it to his minister, Kaspar Anton von Belderbusch, to reduce expenses and to turn the Electorate of Cologne into one of Germany's most flourishing states".

Beethoven's grandfather Ludwig was his choice for Kappelmeister in 1761.

Does Cocceji-Belderbusch fit my "all aliases mastertimeline" for the specific year?

With Calzabigi's , Luchesi's, Leopold Mozart's etc, assistance it does, as follows:

1761

Cocchi's Tito Manlio 7.2.1761 London KT

Hennin* a Saint Foix Varsovie, 10th Feb 1761

Februar: Waffenstillstand zwischen Preußen und Russland, im Mai verlängert bis 27. 5.

In February 1761 Ranieri Calzabigi, a friend of the adventurer Giovanni Giacomo Casanova*, visited Vienna. His libretto for Orfeo ed Euridice, partly based on the theories and practices of such literary men as D. Diderot, F.M. von Grimm*, Rousseau*, and Voltaire, was enthusiastically greeted by Gluck’s* friends...

Maximilian Friedrich von Königsegg-Rothenfels,Erzbischof....politisch uninteressiert, ernannte Belderbusch* bereits am 9. Mai 1761 zum Hofkammerpräsidenten

Baron Alexander, (Stroganov)* ….Count of the Holy Roman Empire 29.5.1761,

When the Marquise d’Urfé informed Choiseul of the Count’s (Saint Germain)* presence, he responded, “I am not surprised, because he spent the night in my chamber.” (supposed to have happened in May but is propaby "planted").

September, 1761 One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay*, 1737-1820.

LETTRE DE VOLTAIRE A P. M. HENNIN*. Aa Château de Ferney, a6 octobre 1761

Cocchi's Allessandor nell'Indie (13.10.1761 London KT)

......Calzabigi, a somewhat unknown librettist who advocated the mixing of French and Italian serious opera to make a new genre better than either. Since this was also an idea that interested Durazzo*, he may have been the person who introduced Calzabigi to Gluck*.The two probably worked together on a ballet, Don Juan, which was premiered on October 17, 1761.

(Rousseau*, "secluded" in Montmorency, published his Nouvelle Heloise in 1761 but is otherwise offscreen )

G: Le Cadi dupé (9.12.1761 Wien B) [Der betrogene Kadi]

*Gioachino Cocchi's alias


Best regards.

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni,

That is interesting. This is more focused, for sure.

Here is a short break. Greetings to the kind and brave people of Greece, who are struggling against the ruthless, corporate, globalist takeover of their nation.

Jim Croce
'Old Man River'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw_jU_WEK60


Your bitterness will go away soon as you taste the prize you rightly won!

It's time you get busy checking and rewriting your http://www.italianopera.org/articoli/newmanCONCERTI.html: Most if not all of your "unknowns" have disappeared (via Carl Ludwig Cocceji-Belderbusch and his absolutely revealing -for me as well-relations to elector Max Frantz among other).

"Carl Luwig Cocceji-Belderbusch" fully explains Beethoven's as well as Luchesi's devotion and indebtness to him eversince Maximilian Friedrich's office as Kurkoeln Elector.

(As Thayer reports) "...he was a good-natured, friendly man who left it to his minister, Kaspar Anton von Belderbusch, to reduce expenses and to turn the Electorate of Cologne into one of Germany's most flourishing states".

Beethoven's grandfather Ludwig was his choice for Kappelmeister in 1761.

Does Cocceji-Belderbusch fit my "all aliases mastertimeline" for the specific year?

With Calzabigi's , Luchesi's, Leopold Mozart's etc, assistance it does, as follows:

1761

Cocchi's Tito Manlio 7.2.1761 London KT

Hennin* a Saint Foix Varsovie, 10th Feb 1761

Februar: Waffenstillstand zwischen Preußen und Russland, im Mai verlängert bis 27. 5.

In February 1761 Ranieri Calzabigi, a friend of the adventurer Giovanni Giacomo Casanova*, visited Vienna. His libretto for Orfeo ed Euridice, partly based on the theories and practices of such literary men as D. Diderot, F.M. von Grimm*, Rousseau*, and Voltaire, was enthusiastically greeted by Gluck’s* friends...

Maximilian Friedrich von Königsegg-Rothenfels,Erzbischof....politisch uninteressiert, ernannte Belderbusch* bereits am 9. Mai 1761 zum Hofkammerpräsidenten

Baron Alexander, (Stroganov)* ….Count of the Holy Roman Empire 29.5.1761,

When the Marquise d’Urfé informed Choiseul of the Count’s (Saint Germain)* presence, he responded, “I am not surprised, because he spent the night in my chamber.” (supposed to have happened in May but is propaby "planted").

September, 1761 One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay*, 1737-1820.

LETTRE DE VOLTAIRE A P. M. HENNIN*. Aa Château de Ferney, a6 octobre 1761

Cocchi's Allessandor nell'Indie (13.10.1761 London KT)

......Calzabigi, a somewhat unknown librettist who advocated the mixing of French and Italian serious opera to make a new genre better than either. Since this was also an idea that interested Durazzo*, he may have been the person who introduced Calzabigi to Gluck*.The two probably worked together on a ballet, Don Juan, which was premiered on October 17, 1761.

(Rousseau*, "secluded" in Montmorency, published his Nouvelle Heloise in 1761 but is otherwise offscreen )

G: Le Cadi dupé (9.12.1761 Wien B) [Der betrogene Kadi]

*Gioachino Cocchi's alias


Best regards.

[yanni]

The question of Willibald and Heinrich being the same person has already been settled by Robert Tompkins in December 2006 (His work on Beethoven's opus identifying Heinrich Koch's principles in Beethoven's work).

http://digital.library.unt.edu/search/?q=%22Tompkins%2C%20Robert%22&t=dc_creator

Old man river is to my liking, classical music is not and, from a philosophical viewpoint, so are calls to greek "bravery" at a time of, to put it mildly, gross and worldwide imbalance!

Here is another "focused" timeline abstract:

1784 (Treaty with England ratified by Congress. Bavarian Monarch Carl Theodore outlaws secret societies. Cagliostro moves to Lyons from Bordeaux to found the Mother Lodge of Egyptian Masonry. Royal Commission in Paris, including Franklin and Guillotine as members, investigates Mesmerism and returns a negative report.)

Caspar Anton von der Heyden genannt Belderbusch † 2. Januar 1784 auf Schloss Miel bei Bonn.

3 January , Gluck’s Orpheo and Eurydice first performed at the Smock Alley Theatre, Dublin
(check a Thomas Jefferson, famous irish actor with links to Richmond VA, London, Garrick, Haymarket, Covent Garden, Drury Lane during and after the Stuart rebellion)

Jefferson To Chastellux Annapolis, Jan. 16, 1784
The greatest difficulty we find is to get money from them….But enough of America it’s politics & poverty.—Science I suppose is going on with you rapidly as usual. I am in daily hopes of seeing something from your pen which may portray us to ourselves. Aware of the bias of self love & prejudice in myself and that your pictures will be faithful I am determined to annihilate my own opinions and give full credit to yours.
(Although reluctant to let go of the project, by January, 1784, the clamor to see the manuscript had grown so great that he informed the Marquis de Chastellux that he intended to print up "a dozen to 20 copies to be given to my friends, not suffering another to go out." The cost of American printing, however, was so high that the publication did not actually appear until after he was appointed Minister Plenipotentiary to France on May 7, 1784)

February Saint Germain “dies” in Schleswig Holstein.

March 1784 Cardinal de Rohan meets Marie Antoinette in Versailles.

April, 1784, Daly produced Gluck's opera, Orpheus and Eurydice, with Tenducci and Mrs. Billington as the stars. (On July 9th of the same year the famous "Douglas" riot occurred. when the Duke of Rutland was present on a command night at the Theatre Royal.)

April 1784 Jefferson notes on the Establishment of a Money Unit and of a Coinage for the United States..

Figaro’s nozzes, April in Paris, by Pierre-Augustin Caron Beaumarchais.

Another Belderbusch, possibly his nephew*, is appointed agent of Max-Frantz in Paris 1785 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_L%C3%A9opold_Von_Heydes_de_Belderbusch

*In 1802, this other Belderbusch became deputy for Oise, north of Paris, Duc d'Orleans former "property", headed by:

CASSINI Jacques Dominique, dit CASSINI DE THURY 2 juillet 1800

LEHOC Louis Grégoire 17 mai 1802

DELAHANTE Étienne Henri 3 juin 1806

CASSINI Jacques Dominique, comte de, dit CASSINI DE THURY 28 avril 1817
(Liste des présidents du Conseil Général de l'Oise at http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histoire_de_l%27Oise)

IE The other Belderbusch is the same person as Cassini de Thury!!

Regards.

[Musicology]

Yes, Yanni. I rate this American singer/songwriter/guitarist (Jim Croce) as one of the finest musicians of the last few decades. He only made a few LP's. His songs in my view equal to Schubert or any other musician of the 18th or 19th centuries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USVvxcaa4OA&feature=PlayList&p=6C3E3CDE3BFF8BF2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HR6dG8GGu8&feature=PlayList&p=6C3E3CDE3BFF8BF2&index=6&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

[yanni]

Of interest your shift of focus to 20th century "soul" music.

Für die Musikgeschichte hat Max Franz von Köln insofern Bedeutung, als er die Ausbildung Beethovens bei Joseph Haydn ermöglichte.....while Belderbusch ,at the pianoforte, accompanied him and his viola.

Of interest:

Mozarts »bestes Werk« ...

Mozart hat sein "Quintett in Es-Dur für Klavier und vier Bläser" (KV 452) am 30. März 1784 in sein »Verzeichnüß aller meiner Werke« eingetragen. Zu dieser Zeit war er endgültig in Wien angekommen, und hatte innerhalb von sechs Wochen als Klaviervirtuose und Komponist bei 22 Akademien mitgewirkt, daneben seine Schüler bzw. Schülerinnen unterrichtet und natürlich komponiert. Denn das Wiener Publikum wollte stets etwas Neues von ihm hören. »Nun können sie sich leicht vorstellen, dass ich nothwendig neue Sachen spielen muss […]«, schrieb er dem Vater. Neu war in Wien aber auch die »Harmoniemusik«, ein Ensemble aus acht Bläsern (2 Oboen, 2 Klarinetten, 2 Hörner und 2 Fagotte).

Mozarts Quintett, das er im k. k. Burgtheater am 1. April 1784 in einer eigenen Akademie den Wienern vorstellte, ist in diesem musikgeschichtlichen Zusammenhang zu sehen.

(You may place it in the timeline above yourself).

Yes, global "blasen" began then, in 1784.

:Angel_anim:

[Musicology]

Yes Yanni. I'm having a little break from Mozart. I'm hoping to get in to some intensive work on him starting next week. So it's just a pause.

Yes, this last post of yours is interesting too.

(The posts on Jim Croce were hopefully OK).

[Musicology]

And here's some Doc Watson -

'Deep River Blues'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VAbrnjdtYw

And Leo Kottke -

'Last Steam Engine Train'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E_s4vQJx-k&feature=related

(Regarding Mozart etc. there is the House of Savoy too).

Robert

[yanni]

Here is a little Beethoven trio to cheer you up, courtesy of "Koch" (2/3).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJbhClb0iGk

[Musicology]

Thanks Yanni.

And here again - Doc Watson and Leo Kottke together

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGbhVHrAcmo&NR=1

[yanni]

For finale (unless you have something other to contribute on the subject) here is

"Μάλιστα κύριε" grk for Yes Sir(in the sense: "Such is the state of things, pal") by greek national poet Zabetas singing it and playing his buzuki.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pciCx9qUho&feature=related

[Musicology]

Very, very nice ! I like it a lot !!!

I really like this too -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30MC7aPD7jU&feature=related




For finale (unless you have something other to contribute on the subject) here is

"Μάλιστα κύριε" grk for Yes Sir(in the sense: "Such is the state of things, pal") by greek national poet Zabetas singing it and playing his buzuki.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pciCx9qUho&feature=related

[yanni]

The one and only Markos ("Your eyelashes shine"-"Sunrise minore").

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxkfrABTzAg&feature=related


(a fitting wake up call to english Wikipedia etc:
H. C. Koch
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.

and german wiki article on him is false

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Christoph_Koch
)

[Musicology]

Yes Yanni,

And here's some music from my own country. Scotland -

Road to the Isles
Andy Stewart

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDz6clakhXw&feature=related

[yanni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OxInaB-zT0

(or you could, I suppose, now focus on Beethoven Piano Quartets, WoO 36: in E; in D; in C and
explain to your colleagues their provenance!)

[Musicology]

Yanni,

As already said on this forum there are numerous works that are wrongly attributed to the young Beethoven. Which are said to be Beethoven's. Amongst the more ridiculous examples are the two great cantatas of state, WoO87 and WoO88.

But since you refer to instrumental music I might also refer to WoO4, a keyboard concerto, which has also been attributed to the young Beethoven. But which cannot possibly be his. (The surviving score is not in Beethoven's hand and it is written on paper of a special kind which was simply not produced after 1784) .See as proof of this articles such as 'L. van Beethoven 'Atti del convegno internazionale di studi' - Verona 1988, p. 41.

That particular watermark was known as 'Nic Heisler' and is also found in the 'Paris' symphony score of 'Mozart' !! (See. A Tyson's 'Studies of the Autograph Scores', p. 109). That paper comes from the Bonn area and was in use there until around 1784 at the latest. And it was also used at Mannheim.

And even some of the paper used in the Beethoven sketchbook known as 'Grasnick 1' (which is said to belong to Beethoven's period in Vienna after 1792) is refered to as 'Viennese' in an article by Dr. A. Chiarelli (1992) although it cannot possibly be from Vienna. Nor can it be as late as 1792. It surely dates before 1786. It too is 'Nic Heisler' watermarked paper.

She writes - 'We find the same watermark with the name 'Nic Heisler' in the Ludwig van Beethoven's Vienna sketchbook 'Grasnick 1'

In respect of the 3 quartets WoO36, also the Trio WoO37, the Hess Serenade 13 etc. - all of these works coming from Bonn - here too there are major problems. First because contemporary writer Ferdinand Ries refused to accept as genuine Beethoven WoO36 in a publication of 1832. And modern researcher Andreas Holschneider even writes 'the first preserved Beethoven's autographs are absolutely NOT in Beethoven's own handwriting'.

The situation becomes even more laughable with the attribution to W.A. Mozart in 1905 when two works KV25a and KV511a were said to be Mozart's. And when this was shown to be untrue they were later credited to.... the young Beethoven ! Although they are in the hand of neither. Nor were they ever credited to Mozart or to Beethoven during their entire lifetimes.

Luchesi, Kapellmeister at Bonn, is the obvious connection between Beethoven, Mozart and the late official career of Josef Haydn. And so this proves to be. These works undoubtedly come from the network of composers who were creating music for all 3 at different times. With Bonn being a vitally important place for both Haydn and Mozart's careers. Involved was Andrea Luchesi, who was of course the Kapellmeister at Bonn. Whose own music has so mysteriously disappeared. Wholesale. G. Taboga of Italy has done outstanding research on the life and career of this almost unknown Andrea Luchesi. In fact, Taboga's research on these issues is perhaps the most outstanding. Luchesi is a man whose entire career has been ignored by the music industry because it contradicts the icons of the modern music industry. Since Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven are major 'gods' of that music industry.

[yanni]

As I, at least, learned while in this thread, a franciscan monk Koch is said to have taught Mozart music and a Heinrich Koch was the first to comment on pupil Mozart and, as it has already been noticed elsewhere, Beethovens re quartets are, curiously, Mozartean in style.

And the two Kochs were one and the same with pianoplayer Belderbusch (and propably with Beethoven's Waldstein to), remember?

Koch's "modern" (1760-1780) composition theories and their influence on Haydn have already been highlighted by Elaine Rochelle Sisman ("Haydn and the classical variation").

...and I am certain his principles can be verified in his own operas (Gluck's) but "nobody" has ever thought doing so!

....and no musicologist has ever traced the provenance of "Koch's" deep theoretical music knowledge, obviously the result of long years of composition practice!

...and what a coincidence(!!): A rather mozartean Joseph Niesen publishing his Bonner personnen book in 2007 giving details on Beethoven's Babette Koch-Belderbusch!

Don't let these details delay you however, your holy cows must be served or else they'll turn against their creators.

Heil whatshisname!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You can be sure Cocchi will not be absent from 'The Manufacture of Mozart'. Though not perhaps as prominent a feature as you would like. Still, highly important, for sure.

Yes, these early 'Beethoven' quartets are curiously Mozartean in style. That is certainly true. And it has often been pointed out to the Mozart industry. Who look at their watches and have an urgent appointment somewhere else ! They were well known at Bonn. And it was from Bonn those musical scores first came. They existed at the time Beethoven was a student there. He was familiar with them. But he did not compose them. The same Bonn which was visited by Josef Haydn both before and after both his tours of England. The same Bonn where Mozart had hopes of becoming Kapellmeister (but which post was of course already held by Andrea Luchesi and which was never realised). The same Bonn where the score of 'Mozart's' 'Magic Flute' was sent, even before its premiere in 1791. (Loaded as it is with music by Clementi, Paul Wranitsky and various others). The same Bonn whose musical archives (some of them) are today held at the Estense Library in Modena, Italy, including scores of many symphonies and masses attributed by tradition to 'Haydn' and also 'Mozart', although the musical records of Bonn show not a single 'Mozart' work in their achives in 1784. (This made at the time of the last music inventory made of that music archive). It was also from Bonn where the Grossmann theatre group (long associated with and employed by the Bonn Hofkapelle) emerged. Under the management of Andrea Luchesi. Which, in 1784 became a private touring company. The same theatrical and operatic group which, in 1785, at Frankfurt, staged 'Le Nozze di Figaro' (fully a year before the 'Mozart premiere' in Vienna on 1st May 1786). Again, hardly recognised by the Mozart industry. It was to Bonn, that the two Reicha's (Anton etc) came from serving earlier at the court of Oettingen Wallerstein in 1784 - shortly after the arrival in Bonn of the new elector, Mozart's friend and patron, Max Franz. And it was Oettingen Wallerstein where Rossler was based (whose Requiem Mass was performed in honour of Mozart and even in 'Mozart's' name when it was performed in Prague in late 1791 at the memorial service for Mozart). The mass of evidence clearly shows Bonn was a vital link in the network which presided over the manufacture of the iconic status of Josef Haydn, W.A. Mozart and even early Beethoven.

And, to illustrate how the music industry works and has worked since the early 19th century onwards, during the time when Beethoven was already being given legendary status (prior to his death in 1827) an equally famous composer of chamber music George Onslow (1784-1853) was in just as great demand as Beethoven ! Although he, today, is virtually unknown, unperformed and virtually nobody has ever heard of him or his music !! George Onslow was rated by Schumann and by numerous other writers of the time as the finest composer of chamber music in all of Europe. Even above Beethoven. A view shared by numerous German and other music publishers where his music was instantly published and was very famous.

The musical 'amnesia' of the priests who edit and polish the musical statues on Easter Island is amazing ! Here is a rare chance to hear some of Onslow's music. A major composer of Beethoven's own mature period. With a known association with Vienna and Beethoven's own circle of influence.

You might listen to Onslow's 2nd and 3rd Symphonies ! If they are not equal to those of Beethoven and very often strikingly similar I am Chinese !!!

The bottom line is this. What we believe and are taught of that crucial era (from Mozart to Beethoven) is highly invented and suppresses vast amounts of information. I will try to get parts of Onslow's symphonies put here soon.

So, yes, certainly. We are describing here an entire network of composers, publishers, publicists, managers, patrons and propagandists whose value judgements and whose influence accounts for the construction of the musical icons which literally dominate our understanding of 'musical history' - especially in the Hadyn, Mozart, Beethoven period. We have only, so far, scratched the surface.

My aim is not so much to attribute famous works of that 'holy trinity' to any particular other composer in areas where there are real doubts. But to show, from many kinds of evidence these works are definitely not those of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven in spite of 200 years of tradition and invention. Focusing, as said, on the legendary life and career of W.A. Mozart. And showing (by information that is almost never appreciated) how that status was invented and raised to giant, dominating size. The one we know today.

Not forgetting the contribution made to both Mozart and Beethoven's reputations by Cartellieri. Virtually forgotten also.

Here are two movements from Onslow's Op. 79

George Onslow (1784-1853)

Op. 79/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sZc4z1YzjA&feature=related

Op. 79/3 (Scherzo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1aA9SJkPg&feature=related



As I, at least, learned while in this thread, a franciscan monk Koch is said to have taught Mozart music and a Heinrich Koch was the first to comment on pupil Mozart and, as it has already been noticed elsewhere, Beethovens re quartets are, curiously, Mozartean in style.

And the two Kochs were one and the same with pianoplayer Belderbusch (and propably with Beethoven's Waldstein to), remember?

Koch's "modern" (1760-1780) composition theories and their influence on Haydn have already been highlighted by Elaine Rochelle Sisman ("Haydn and the classical variation").

...and I am certain his principles can be verified in his own operas (Gluck's) but "nobody" has ever thought doing so!

....and no musicologist has ever traced the provenance of "Koch's" deep theoretical music knowledge, obviously the result of long years of composition practice!

...and what a coincidence(!!): A rather mozartean Joseph Niesen publishing his Bonner personnen book in 2007 giving details on Beethoven's Babette Koch-Belderbusch!

Don't let these details delay you however, your holy cows must be served or else they'll turn against their creators.

Heil whatshisname!

[Musicology]

Here is a remarkable movement from Onslow's last (4th Symphony) -

George Onslow (1784-1853)
Symphony No. 4
Opus 71

1st Movement
Hanover Philharmonic Radio NDR
Germany
J.Goritzki
(Introduzione/ Largo/Allegro spirituoso)

http://www.mediafire.com/?nz2nommdm4b

[yanni]

Your difficulty to really understand and live with, as a musicologist, the issues arising from demasking the phantom can but be excused: An alltogether different world, not just in music!

George Onslow's biography is somehow limited in details, his blood connection to his own father already doubtfull. Around 1787 Chastellux was also married (for the nth time) to an english girl (name Plunkett if I remember correctly) and a son came to life later but there is no record of what happened to him.

Regarding "François-Jean de Beauvoir*** de Chastellux's" later life marriage to Marie-Josephine-Charlotte-Brigitte de Plunkett and their son Alfred: A separate chapter will follow later on herein, once relative research is sufficiently completed. http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index/p...ial/clist.html
(post #4 of "Melchior Grimm revisited" herein)

She came from Duc d'Orleans circle.


Good luck with your book.

Best regards.

[Musicology]

Yes, it was a great difficulty for years. But, like an onion, its layers eventually peeled away.

Duc d'Orleans ? He was the sponsor for the French printing of the famous 'Violin School' - a work published in the year of W.A. Mozart's birth, 1756, (first in Austria/Germany) and later in that Paris edition and dutch in Holland, text based on the plagiarised and still unpublished violin treatise of Tartini. That book appearing in the name of none other than a certain Leopold Mozart. Just a coincidence, of course ! As is the link between Leopold Mozart and various music publishing journals and agencies. Leopold Mozart had an extensive network of contacts through these musical journals and acting as a sales agent for music in Salzburg. The same Duc d'Orleans was an active occultist. And friend of the Mozarts in Paris. As you say yourself, 'the circle around Duc D'Orleans'. Which included Barons and patrons of Mozart in Venice, Italy, Germany and Austria. Including England.

Onslow was far too clearly associated with the elite aristocracy of the British Empire. (aka East India Company). So he and his musical career had to be virtually edited out of books on music history. It was a vast network. You are right about Onslow's 'pedigree'. Rather a giveaway so he and the music associated with him are today virtually unknown.

And then there is of course Thomas Linley/Bath/the British elites of that time surrounding the patronage there of art and music. And the circumstances surrounding Linley's accidental death at that castle lake in 1778. The 'English Mozart', no less.

Best regards



Your difficulty to really understand and live with, as a musicologist, the issues arising from demasking the phantom can but be excused: An alltogether different world, not just in music!

George Onslow's biography is somehow limited in details, his blood connection to his own father already doubtfull. Around 1787 Chastellux was also married (for the nth time) to an english girl (name Plunkett if I remember correctly) and a son came to life later but there is no record of what happened to him.

Regarding "François-Jean de Beauvoir*** de Chastellux's" later life marriage to Marie-Josephine-Charlotte-Brigitte de Plunkett and their son Alfred: A separate chapter will follow later on herein, once relative research is sufficiently completed. http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index/p...ial/clist.html
(post #4 of "Melchior Grimm revisited" herein)

She came from Duc d'Orleans circle.


Good luck with your book.

Best regards.

[yanni]

A question often overlooked (because of the impossibility of an answer) is that of the fate of 18th elite's "children born out of marriage".

Some were trained as musicians propably, like Onslow and maybe Beethoven as well (a previous baby Ludwig dying and rumors of Ludwig #2 as an illegitimate child of a king or other) and with "Koch-Bache-Figaro" always ready to accomodate all, no wonder so many composers were produced at the time, all sharing the same more or less "principles".

"Koch" was Duc d'Orleans chief spy, hence the many aliases he used.

Regards.



Yes, it was a great difficulty for years. But, like an onion, its layers eventually peeled away.

Duc d'Orleans ? He was the sponsor for the French printing of the famous 'Violin School' - a work published in the year of W.A. Mozart's birth, 1756, (first in Austria/Germany) and later in that Paris edition and dutch in Holland, text based on the plagiarised and still unpublished violin treatise of Tartini. That book appearing in the name of none other than a certain Leopold Mozart. Just a coincidence, of course ! As is the link between Leopold Mozart and various music publishing journals and agencies. Leopold Mozart had an extensive network of contacts through these musical journals and acting as a sales agent for music in Salzburg. The same Duc d'Orleans was an active occultist. And friend of the Mozarts in Paris. As you say yourself, 'the circle around Duc D'Orleans'. Which included Barons and patrons of Mozart in Venice, Italy, Germany and Austria. Including England.

Onslow was far too clearly associated with the elite aristocracy of the British Empire. (aka East India Company). So he and his musical career had to be virtually edited out of books on music history. It was a vast network. You are right about Onslow's 'pedigree'. Rather a giveaway so he and the music associated with him are today virtually unknown.

And then there is of course Thomas Linley/Bath/the British elites of that time surrounding the patronage there of art and music. And the circumstances surrounding Linley's accidental death at that castle lake in 1778. The 'English Mozart', no less.

Best regards

[Musicology]

Ah, yes, this is a major subject. There are 'rumours' about Beethoven. For sure. And we have the strange early life story of Beethoven's Vienna colleague Antonio Casimir Cartellieri (who, after he shared a concert in Vienna became associated with 'editing' Mozart stage works for performance in Bohemia for Lobkowitz). Cartellieri suddenly turned up in his youth in Vienna as a music pupil of Antonio Salieri. In fact, the first surviving musical work of Cartellieri is a chamber work dedicated to Antonio Salieri by Cartellieri.

Then we have the strange childhood of Anton Reicha. Who turned up in Bonn with his uncle from Oettingen Wallerstein to join the same orchestra as the young Beethoven c. 1782/3. Reicha later becoming a composition professor at the Paris Conservatory.

Not forgetting an earlier child of the Mozart family (also named Amadeus) who died not long after his birth, this a year or so before Wolfgang's own birth.

And, of Beethoven, there is the story of how he supposedly dedicated his 3rd Symphony, Opus 55, the ‘Eroica’ to Napoleon Bonaparte, only to scribble it out in disgust once Napoleon had himself crowned Emperor. (Or so goes the story, at least).

In fact the title of the first (London) publication of the score of Beethoven’s ’Eroica’ Symphony which first uses this dedication dates from not earlier than 1809 to an un-named hero ("Sinfonia Eroica composta per celebrare la morte d'un Eroe") but later reads "per festeggiare il sovvenire di un grand'uomo". Apart from the famous theory about the work being dedicated to Napoleon, Beethoven's acquaintance with one Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, who was revered as a hero by his contemporaries and killed in a battle with French troops in 1806 has also been considered as another candidate for that strange dedication. Still others have suggested Beethoven might have had an purely imaginary hero in mind

I’d like to suggest the ’hero’ Beethoven had in mind in that dedication was none other than this little known musical colleague and friend of his early Vienna period Antonio Casimir Cartellieri (who had died in the service of Prince Lobkowitz, patron of Beethoven, on 2nd September 1807 at such a young age). Prince Franz Joseph Maximilian von Lobkowitz was a great music lover and passionate violinist and had a private orchestra and employed excellent musicians for a string quartet. He certainly became one of the most important patrons of Ludwig van Beethoven and was interested in performing new works of the composer in his palace. His father before him was a patron of Mozart. Particularly noteworthy is Beethoven's Third Symphony, the so-called "Eroica" was rehearsed several times at the Prince's palace in Vienna before its first public performance. Lobkowitz was the same employer, in fact, of that same almost unknown C.A. Cartellieri who, records clearly show was a close musical associate of Beethoven for some years. As for Onslow, again, there are questions.

We know too Cartellieri was described shortly after his arrival in Vienna as a 'pupil of Abbe George Vogler'. The same Vogler who was associated with Mozart at Mannheim. He was a member of the Order of the Golden Spur, the same as Mozart. (In fact, he was a papal chamberlain, virtually the same rank as a Cardinal). And this same Vogler (whose official story disguises his real significance in the history of music) was even described as the 'teacher' of Cartellieri in those first days in Vienna. In fact, a great symphony by Cartellieri was performed at the Vienna concert where both he and Beethoven were the featured composers. The name of Cartellieri is largely forgotten today although, at the time, he made a tremendous impact. As much as Beethoven himself, in fact. The two were closely associated. Through the same Prince Lobkowtiz. Who snapped him up for service in Bohemia shortly after that concert. Where he remained until his sudden death at an early age.

The fact that the concert impresario of Joseph Haydn (Salomon) lived in the same house as young Beethoven at Bonn is, well, sheer coincidence, of course (LOL).

The coincidences are remarkable, for sure !!

[yanni]

Certainly.....but you "failed mentioning" Beethoven's other patron, Count Oppersdorf and his chateau in upper Glogau with an orchestra and a theater big enough to stage his oppern in his (Carl Ludwig Cocceji's) Dorf.

(http://www.mattnaughtin.com/Beethoven-Symphony4.pdf)

He is, most propably, the same man as Prince Lobkowitz, owner of another chateau famous for its theater and links to opera musiciens, the Jezeri-Eisenberg chateau (in Sagan, Bohemia) were Gluck was allegedly raised .

Did you know that another alias he used was "Montferrat" ie "Eisenberg"?

Anyway FERDINAND Philipp Apostol Joseph Johann Nepomuck Adalbert Anastaz 6.Fürst von Lobkowicz, Herzog von Sagan had a theater and an orchestra in his bohemian chateau too and he did die in Wien 14.1.1784 (hah-hah), his Sagan property then sold by his successor, JOSEPH FRANZ MAXIMILIAN Fardinand Karl 7.Fürst von Lobkowicz, last Herzog von Sagan after 3.5.1786 to Birons von Kurland (then serving his Russia).

Emperor Joseph II bestowed upon the 7th Prince Lobkowicz, Joseph Franz Maximilian Lobkowicz (1772-1816), the title Duke of Roudnice in 1786.Joseph Franz Maximilian remains best known as a great lover of music and patron of Beethoven, who dedicated numerous works to Lobkowicz, including the 3rd (Eroica)(!!), 5th and 6th (Pastoral) Symphonies, the Opus 18 String Quartets and the Triple Concerto.

IE Mozart's and Beethoven's one and only "Lobkowicz" was "Waldstein" who introduced Beethoven to russian prince Lichnowicz (his neighbogh in Eisenberg-Sagan but in their biographies they share the same chateau).

(He also had a son "Gleichenstein" btw)

Life is less worth living without fairytales and as such you should never forget(hah-hah) Oppersdorf and his Seven Dwarfs....

...mit Gluck!

:driving:

[Musicology]

Yes,

You refer to the Jezeri-Eisenberg chateau (in Sagan, Bohemia) where Gluck was allegedly raised. Owned by Lobkowitz. I've made quite a study of the Lobkowitz patronage of Mozart and Beethoven. That estate was one of two in Bohemia where Cartellieri spent much of his short life. And the extraordinary circumstances of Cartellieri's death are recorded in an unpublished document made by his son, who later was employed by the same Lobkowitz family in Prague. (In fact, the whereabouts of the vast music archives of the Bonn Hofkappelle were for years manipulated after their evacuation from Bonn in 1794), arriving at Prague. Though the truth of that is concealed behind much misinformation. Those music archives (formerly held at Bonn) provide some of the most devastating evidence of entire symphonies and masses being falsely attributed to Haydn and Mozart. Many of these documents today at Modena, in Italy. What little has been written about them tends to be false. The 'official' story is they were made in the early 19th century. But the watermarks clearly show they come (for the most part) from Bonn. And they include remarkable evidences of many 'Mozart' symphonies having existed years before they were supposedly 'composed', by him. The same can be said of numerous symphonies and masses attributed to 'Haydn'. Each has its own story. But their orchestration and watermarks (plus other evidence) show beyond reasonable doubt these were manipulated. The music archives of the Lobkowitz's at Jezeri-Eisenberg are just as vital. Here we find evidence of work being done on 'Mozart' operas even before their first publication. (During the time Cartellieri and his musical colleague Anton Wranitsky were working there. The other Wranitsky (Paul) being the 'manager' of the musical estate of Mozart after 1791 with the collaboration of Constanze Mozart).

And which person conducted the premiere of Beethoven's 'Eroica' in Vienna ?

Another important patron of Cartellieri (also associated with early Beethoven) was Count Oborski/Oborsky). I believe it was from Oborsky that Cartellieri first went in to service with Prince Lobkowitz. The ancestor of Count Oborsky was one Bishop Tomasz Oborski at Kalwaria Zebrydowska near Krakov in Poland. Who declared a Marian image in 1656 that had been donated to the church there as miraculous and consented to its public exposure in the church. Around which grew the cult known today at Kalwaria Zebrydowska. Mikolaj Stanislaw Oborski: 1576-1646, Jesuit and writer, joined the Jesuit order in 1602. Investigated the miracles of Stanislaw Kostka and associated with art and culture of the counter-reformation.

Again, the composer Vanhal (close associate of Mozart in Vienna but largely hidden from appreciation) was similarly associated with religious communities. As was Josef Haydn. There is powerful evidence the careers of both Josef Haydn and Mozart were 'managed' by interests of the Holy Roman Empire at virtually every stage. Indeed, at Esterhazy that musical regime became closely associated with a religious community nearby that was of vital importance to Josef Haydn throughout most of his career. The same in Vienna. Many tours of young Mozart in western Europe would have been logistically impossible without a network of monasteries and 'hospitals' that existed right across the Holy Roman Empire. These huge tours of the Mozarts were not so much arranged by Leopold's contacts in correspondence with far away patrons and music managers, as we might suppose. They were arranged mostly through this wide and obvious network of church properties. In effect, the close fraternity surrounding Mozart used the resources of the Catholic Church widely. Which explains the absence of much correspondence between Leopold Mozart and his supposed 'patrons' prior to those tours. And the close association of Mozart's final years with monastery musicians. (Abbe Maximilian Stadler and Sussmayr, for example, whose role at that time in managing Mozart's official career is indisputable. The same Stadler undoubtedly associated with later creation of the 'Requiem' together with various others).

Lobkowitz was, of course, a member of the Order of the Golden Fleece. Reserved for the Catholic aristocracy. So that only within the context of the Holy Roman Empire do the background of these careers begin to make sense.

Yes, the connection between Beethoven's 'Eroica' and Lobkowitz. This is explained by the fact that Lobkowitz, resident in Vienna for much of the year and home in Bohemia at other times, had the services of both Cartellieri and Beethoven. Again supporting the view that the dedication on that Beethoven symphony is to his recently lost musical colleague, Cartellieri.

That most of the piano concertos of 'Mozart' were put together for publication after Mozart's death is, to me, a certainty. The same is true of bringing the operas to a form that they were able to be published in his name. Again, this occurring in the years after 1791. The concertos involving much work at places such as Salzburg and, later still, Offenbach with the publisher Andre. So that they finally appeared in print often a decade after Mozart's death in 1791, but not before. This great music involving the input of several composers. And, as for arriving at their final forms, in terms of the operas, there are the 'Mozart' opera manuscripts at Florence.

The whole story is huge. But the broad outlines are clear enough. The careers of these individuals were hugely 'managed' by vested interests who, from the 19th century onwards, became the music industry and who, to this day, preside over 'musicology' (so-called). J.N. Forkel would have laughed. But then, Forkel anticipated exactly what would come if the forces of commerce, conservatism and of popular fashion began to dictate what is taught and believed in these areas.

Regards



Certainly.....but you "failed mentioning" Beethoven's other patron, Count Oppersdorf and his chateau in upper Glogau with an orchestra and a theater big enough to stage his oppern in his (Carl Ludwig Cocceji's) Dorf.

(http://www.mattnaughtin.com/Beethoven-Symphony4.pdf)

He is, most propably, the same man as Prince Lobkowitz, owner of another chateau famous for its theater and links to opera musiciens, the Jezeri-Eisenberg chateau (in Sagan, Bohemia) were Gluck was allegedly raised .

Did you know that another alias he used was "Montferrat" ie "Eisenberg"?

Anyway FERDINAND Philipp Apostol Joseph Johann Nepomuck Adalbert Anastaz 6.Fürst von Lobkowicz, Herzog von Sagan had a theater and an orchestra in his bohemian chateau too and he did die in Wien 14.1.1784 (hah-hah), his Sagan property then sold by his successor, JOSEPH FRANZ MAXIMILIAN Fardinand Karl 7.Fürst von Lobkowicz, last Herzog von Sagan after 3.5.1786 to Birons von Kurland (then serving his Russia).

Emperor Joseph II bestowed upon the 7th Prince Lobkowicz, Joseph Franz Maximilian Lobkowicz (1772-1816), the title Duke of Roudnice in 1786.Joseph Franz Maximilian remains best known as a great lover of music and patron of Beethoven, who dedicated numerous works to Lobkowicz, including the 3rd (Eroica)(!!), 5th and 6th (Pastoral) Symphonies, the Opus 18 String Quartets and the Triple Concerto.

Life is less worth living without fairytales and as such you should never forget(hah-hah) Oppersdorf and his Seven Dwarfs....

...mit Gluck!

:driving:

[yanni]

I can't read polish but it looks as if "Stanisława Kostki" (Wypis z procesu kanonizacji św. Stanisława Kostki) and his contemporary, father Nicholaus "Caussin"-Cocchi, had a great deal in common!

You may forever and perhaps wisely avoid issues raised by yourstruly but if fairytales were neccessary to comfort those living then, the truth is, for me at least, the only way to live today and tommorow.

You are attacking "church" but they used it, just like music, as a tool to influence and govern, much like they do today!

[Musicology]

I again agree with what you say here.

It was of course the state/organised church alliance which underpinned much of western European history from the start. The extent of that influence in the careers of Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart (in particular) is deliberately hidden because moves towards a 'secularised' society of the kind pushed by the 'enlightenment' could not admit to its true origins - being none other than the same vested interests as before. So that these iconic composers appear to 'float' through the society and the musical world of their own times, disembodied and rarely appreciated within their real musical and other contexts. The average music lover hears little, if any of the music of their 'lesser' contemporaries and their own influences. It's deliberate and it's relentless. So dozens, even hundreds of names are buried, deliberately edited out of the 'official' history, regardless of their own talents, often their clear association with the 'giants', with all the absurdities this creates.

Easter Island is far from where most people live. So too are the icons 'they' have created. They are very, very far, from the musical, social and other realities of those times.

Yes, I thought Stanisława Kostki would be of interest.

According to Macek, the first performances of Mozart operas at the residences of Lobkowitz took place at Raudnitz in Bohemia in the fall of 1798, thus before the theatre itself was actually completed. An ensemble of singers from Prague, organized by Franz Strobach, Kapellmeister at the Lobkowitz Loretto Church, was invited to perform Die Entführung aus dem Serail and Cosě fan tutte; the orchestra was enlarged with the addition of local amateur players.

Here is music equal to anything of Beethoven in Onslow's 4th (last) symphony -

Georg Onslow
Symphony No. 4
3rd Movement
(Andantino molto cantabile)

http://www.mediafire.com/?2ntzty2ni4h

Regardless of what we think about composers and the true origins of music that is associated with them, I don't think anyone would disagree this music deserves to be recognised and heard alongside that of Beethoven and others.



I can't read polish but it looks as if "Stanisława Kostki" (Wypis z procesu kanonizacji św. Stanisława Kostki) and his contemporary, father Nicholaus "Caussin"-Cocchi, had a great deal in common!

You may forever and perhaps wisely avoid issues raised by yourstruly but if fairytales were neccessary to comfort those living then, the truth is, for me at least, the only way to live today and tommorow.

You are attacking "church" but they used it, just like music, as a tool to influence and govern, much like they do today!

[yanni]

Many Lobkowiczs are listed in the list of knights of Golden Fleece including our previous "pair" linked to Beethoven, Mozart and indirectly Goethe (and there is as well, perhaps in another site, the first Lobkowicz on record an "Adam Gallus" of same chronology as father "Mikolay" Caussin-Kostki, highly revered by the Kalwaria Zebrydowska-Loretto cult).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Knights_of_the_Golden_Fleece.

The order remained loyal to Rome (opposing Henry the 8th) until Napoleon's fall (with Wellington joining its ranks then):

"Reform" had an alltogether different meaning already by late 1780's however, the fields of America ready and waiting to be ploughed (as Matheus "Kostkiusco"- among others-would surely attest).

If only I could be given access to Napoleon's views on/correspondence with "Raynal"! That's the only unclarified and hence intriguing part of my hero's story.

...and...no, classical music was access restricted to those "initiated few" ...and it was a much smaller world then, don't let the great number of aliases (or your ideefixes) confuse you!

As such a list of his aliases is a must.

...and your Onslow was, well, Onslow, half "galiani" as well!






I again agree with what you say here.

It was of course the state/organised church alliance which underpinned much of western European history from the start. The extent of that influence in the careers of Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart (in particular) is deliberately hidden because moves towards a 'secularised' society of the kind pushed by the 'enlightenment' could not admit to its true origins - being none other than the same vested interests as before. So that these iconic composers appear to 'float' through the society and the musical world of their own times, disembodied and rarely appreciated within their real musical and other contexts. The average music lover hears little, if any of the music of their 'lesser' contemporaries and their own influences. It's deliberate and it's relentless. So dozens, even hundreds of names are buried, deliberately edited out of the 'official' history, regardless of their own talents, often their clear association with the 'giants', with all the absurdities this creates.

Easter Island is far from where most people live. So too are the icons 'they' have created. They are very, very far, from the musical, social and other realities of those times.

Yes, I thought Stanisława Kostki would be of interest.

According to Macek, the first performances of Mozart operas at the residences of Lobkowitz took place at Raudnitz in Bohemia in the fall of 1798, thus before the theatre itself was actually completed. An ensemble of singers from Prague, organized by Franz Strobach, Kapellmeister at the Lobkowitz Loretto Church, was invited to perform Die Entführung aus dem Serail and Cosě fan tutte; the orchestra was enlarged with the addition of local amateur players.

Here is music equal to anything of Beethoven in Onslow's 4th (last) symphony -

Georg Onslow
Symphony No. 4
3rd Movement
(Andantino molto cantabile)

http://www.mediafire.com/?2ntzty2ni4h

Regardless of what we think about composers and the true origins of music that is associated with them, I don't think anyone would disagree this music deserves to be recognised and heard alongside that of Beethoven and others.

[Musicology]

Yes. So what we have are members of the various fraternities of the now 'secularised' enlightenment also being members of the fraternities of the conservatives of the old Holy Roman Empire ! Including Lobkowitz and others. Proving beyond reasonable doubt the 'enlightenment' was really a period of transition within society. From virtually the time of 'British' Freemasonry onwards (1717).

You are also right both Napoleon and Wellington were members of the same Order of the Golden Fleece ! Proof positive of just how deeply the facts of the British feudal 'establishment' really go. (All the way back to the Norman invasion of 1066 and the feudal system imposed at that time in England).

The fraternities virtually controlled the music industry in England from the early 18th century onwards.

I hope you get a chance to hear that Onslow music.

Cheers !


Many Lobkowiczs are listed in the list of knights of Golden Fleece including our previous "pair" linked to Beethoven, Mozart and indirectly Goethe (and there is as well, perhaps in another site, the first Lobkowicz on record an "Adam Gallus" of same chronology as father "Mikolay" Caussin-Kostki, highly revered by the Kalwaria Zebrydowska-Loretto cult).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Knights_of_the_Golden_Fleece.

The order remained loyal to Rome (opposing Henry the 8th) until Napoleon's fall (with Wellington joining its ranks then):

"Reform" had an alltogether different meaning already by late 1780's, the fields of America ready and waiting to be ploughed (as Matheus "Kostkiusco" and not only would surely attest).

If only I could be given access to Napoleon's views on/correspondence with "Raynal"! That's the only unclarified and hence intriguing part of my hero's story.

...and...no, classical music was access restricted to those "initiated few" ...and it was a much smaller world then, don't let the great number of aliases (or your ideefixes) confuse you!

As such a list of his aliases is a must.

[yanni]

You cannot deny that financial interests define "change" (Church included) and you don't really still support a "Russeau/Gluck-antireformist" theory, do you?

As for classical music: No, I never liked it (for the fate of my grandfather who also sang Faust while touring the lands of The Golden Fleece, Krakow included).

[Musicology]

In a post of earlier today I mentioned -

According to Macek, the first performances of Mozart operas at the residences of Lobkowitz took place at Raudnitz in Bohemia in the fall of 1798, thus before the theatre itself was actually completed. An ensemble of singers from Prague, organized by Franz Strobach, Kapellmeister at the Lobkowitz Loretto Church, was invited to perform Die Entführung aus dem Serail and Cosě fan tutte; the orchestra was enlarged with the addition of local amateur players.

I might also note this same Loretto Church in Prague - which has a long musical association with the careers of Haydn and Mozart (owned by the Lobkowitz family) was a very active centre of musical 'work' in the years after Mozart's death. It was the place where the music archives of Bonn eventually came to after their evacuation from Bonn in 1794. Around the same time as Beethoven's visit there with Lobkowitz (and the visit of Constanze Mozart). The start there in Prague of the first biography of F.X. Niemetscheck (1794-1798). Those music archives of Bonn were doctored before being transfered to Modena in Italy and elsewhere. (In many cases their covers often being ripped off if that gave away their true origins and all trace of their real composers purposely removed). In numerous textbooks these scores now at Modena are said to be of very recent origin. When, in fact, they are among the oldest of them all. As we see by watermark and other internal evidence. With their contents now 'sanitised' and numerous symphonies and masses now officially credited on those pages to 'Haydn' and 'Mozart' before eventually arriving there at Modena in Italy. A similar sort of thing to what was happening with stage works at the Lobkowitz estate in Bohemia, in Paris, Italy and elsewhere. Not forgetting London and the careers of Viotti, Lorenzo da Ponte etc under the 'artistic management' of Gallini etc). The King's Theatre and that unfortunate fire which destroyed it. Shortly before the token visit there of organist Abbe Georg Vogler, that is. LOL !

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I think there are two different things which are often confused. There are actions and then there are reactions. Actionaries and reactionaries. Who can doubt there was a Reformation ? And that there was a Counter-Reformation ? The latter took lots of money to achieve. To perpetuate the power and interests of the empire.

So, I really doubt financial interests define change as such. They are characteristics of the system of reaction. But nothing else. Reality happens and the spin merchants go in to operation to suppress it or misrepresent it. At least, that's what I think. 'History being written by the winners' etc.

We've been through a lot of counterfeit stuff. But reality just keeps appearing. It's a feature of our time. Something to be encouraged and welcomed, I believe. Not so much money as such. But the 'love' of money.

As for money, who can doubt that it changes men ? Sometimes without them knowing it. I've seen examples of it happening. The stuff tends to corrupt, for sure.



You cannot deny that financial interests define "change" (Church included) and you don't really still support a "Russeau/Gluck-antireformist" theory, do you?

As for classical music: No, I never liked it (for the fate of my grandfather who also sang Faust while touring the lands of The Golden Fleece, Krakow included).

[yanni]

Financial interests define change just as technological "progress" does (and there are always the conflicting interests of the privileged few vs hoi polloi's).

All the above social "facts" however run against the one and only truth of "creation" as history and science (should) recognize.

And of course "money's" own history is one of geometrical decline, almost parallel to "progress", particularly so during the last few centuries.

Greetings.

[Musicology]

Yes indeed. The bubble has burst. But the doctrine of progress has to be maintained to keep the illusion going. Any other 'history' is forbidden. Social Darwinism, in fact. The engineering of society. At every level. Including the academic world. So that the myth of progress is equated with the empires they wish to build.


Financial interests define change just as technological "progress" does (and there are always the conflicting interests of the privileged few vs hoi polloi's).

All the above social "facts" however run against the one and only truth of "creation" as history and science (should) recognize.

And of course "money's" own history is one of geometrical decline, almost parallel to "progress", particularly so during the last few centuries.

Greetings.

[yanni]

(Quoted from a sonetto by Nicholo di chocho donati, scriptore, dedicated to Piero de Medici and his wife, Mona Lucrezia, the pair having survived a Pitti revolt, July 1466).

Of interest re "change as applicable":

Cocchi Fr. Nicolaus, Viterbiensis, Theol. Bacc., acri ingenio et probitate clarus, sua studiorum curricula Arimini, Ravennae, Bononiae, Perusiae egregie perfecit ab an. 1780 ad an. 1790, quo die 17 decembris renuntiatus fuit Lector, et tribus post annis Anconae Bacc. Deinc Romam accitus, cum esset Collegialis, an. 1795, studiorum moderatore P. Ioanne Augustino Carabelloni, suam Ex novo testamento Syllexim Exegetico - Hermeneutico- Polemico-Empirico criticam exposuit, quamque Cardinali Andreae Ioannetto Archiepiscopo Bononiensi dicavit atque editit, Romae, 1795, Typ. Giannelli, in 4. Reliquit insuper Logicam et Metaphisicam, quae mss. asservantur in archivo Ordinis, et in Cod. 427 Bibl. Angelicae Urbis, inter ff. 1-173. In eodem codice vero ff. 1-518 habentur etiam eiusdem, sub nomine tamen Fr. Nicolai Coccia: In Praedicamenta Aristotelis disputationes sex, quae inc.: "Disputatio I. de Ente rationis ebiectivo. Philosophiam haec labes invasit". Expl: "Finis. Laus Deo Deiparaeque. Si Pater Adam, materque est omnibus Eva cur ergo non sumus nobilitate pares. Fr. Nieolaus Coccia".

Also of interest, Novara's Coccia theater (Carlo Coccia, composer) and the late 18th evolution of "Cocchi" to "Coccia".

Best wishes for your book.



Yes indeed. The bubble has burst. But the doctrine of progress has to be maintained to keep the illusion going. Any other 'history' is forbidden. Social Darwinism, in fact. The engineering of society. At every level. Including the academic world. So that the myth of progress is equated with the empires they wish to build.

[Musicology]

Yes, Yanni.

You may be aware Aristotelian philosophy was that of an oligarchical society. In Venice (a territory which was supposedly independent of Rome) the ruling elites there always studied it. It's chief university (one used by Contarini - the Venetian Cardinal who supported the creation of the Jesuit Order) was Padua, nearby. In Italy proper. In fact, Contarini himself was educated in Aristotle at Padua. So was the Venetian advisor to the English King, Henry 8th at the time of his divorce, one Francesco Zorzi. Who encouraged the break with Rome taken by the same Henry over his divorce, encouraged by these very same Aristotelian Venetians. Out of which came trading alliances between the mercantile English and these Venetians and the early founding of shipping companies. Leading, gradually, to formation of the British Empire. With their full assistance. The full cost of which was the infiltration of England and its government. These (in the 1570's) including formation of first the 'Turkey Company', and then the 'Venice Company' who both merged after becoming the 'Levant Company' to form the early British East India Company. Further expansion led to the Bank of England. In fact, the Venetian influence was massive in England from that time onwards. So that the occultist/Jesuit movement working out of Venice was now in alliance with English mercantile elites and the English monarchy was now a rival to Rome. And Rome was of course a rival to Protestant England as a whole. This all before the Spanish Armada of 1588. In fact, the first head of the British East India company, Smyth, was himself a student of the Aristotelian system of government at the same Padua University. Same as these Venetians themselves.

So the above information on Cocchi's association with Aristotle does not suprise me. The Cocchi clan were undoubtedly associated with this emerging Jesuit/occultist/Venetian movement. Who were developing strong links with the emerging British Empire through their shipping empire. One product of which was the British East India Company. And it would not suprise me to learn Cocchis were students at Padua university in Italy. In fact, it was from the 'Giovani' movement of Venice that came the nucleus of early Freemasonry in England. Whose head oversaw the introduction of it into England. Paolo Sarpi.

Regards

[Musicology]

And, as for the origins of Freemasonry, further reading has confirmed this too definitely emerged out of Venice. From the 'Giovani' there, a group headed up by Paolo Sarpi. Transfered to England with this Venetian/Jesuit/Occultist influence within the government and elite society as the British Empire emerged. And Sarpi was in direct correspondence with men such as Francis Bacon etc. The myth of Isaac Newton, that of William Shakespeare and almost total control of the Royal Society resulted. Since the Rosicrucian/occultist origins of that group has direct links to this incoming Venetian influence in England. Including the diplomatic and secret services of England itself. Historians such as Wooton have already shown these things in some detail.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

And here, to finish my input on this thread -

George Onslow
Symphony No. 4
Second Movement
(Scherzo Presto)

http://www.mediafire.com/?mdrndqwdwzd

Regards

Robert

[yanni]

Regarding your last three posts:

The "story" of Venice taking over England thru freemasonry has already been discussed and I have no interest to commence all over again but one thing is for sure: Venice had close links to Byzance and as such inherited classical Greece and passed it over to the rest of Europe, including Aristotle.

Nobody (other than you and some high priests perhaps) has ever doubted his contribution to philosophy (in the greek sense ie "all inclusive") and to human understanding of "the universe" and man's role in it.

Calling him the prophet of oligarchical societies is....an unfortunate choice, to say the least.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The bible so accurately describes the Greeks as follows -

'The Jews seek signs and the Greeks wisdom'.

So wonderfully confirmed by the facts of history. Since Greece was amongst the earliest of nations to receive Christianity. Since which time pagan philosophy has become pagan philosophy. And the search for truth has been ended by the revealing of truth itself.

Regards



Regarding your last three posts:

The "story" of Venice taking over England thru freemasonry has already been discussed and I have no interest to commence all over again but one thing is for sure: Venice had close links to Byzance and as such inherited classical Greece and passed it over to the rest of Europe, including Aristotle.

Nobody (other than you and some high priests perhaps) has ever doubted his contribution to philosophy (in the greek sense ie "all inclusive") and to human understanding of "the universe" and man's role in it.

Calling him the prophet of oligarchical societies is....an unfortunate choice, to say the least.

[yanni]

Yes, logic and the old "Bible" (to general a term- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible- please clarify) have only the greek inspired and written New Testament in common.

Keep on seeking signs if you must but try not misinterpreting them in the future otherwise your next "Beethoven" will never be completed either.

That's all beside the point however and you will not spoil my pleasure for answering Nancy Kovaleff Baker's agonising question if Koch ever put his composition theories into practice (Aesthetics and the art of musical composition in the German Enlightenment, by Johann Georg Sulzer,Nancy Kovaleff Baker,Thomas Street Christensen,Heinrich Christoph Koch).

...and try translating "aesthetics" and "music" into another language!

Regards.



Yanni,

The bible so accurately describes the Greeks as follows -

'The Jews seek signs and the Greeks wisdom'.

So wonderfully confirmed by the facts of history. Since Greece was amongst the earliest of nations to receive Christianity. Since which time pagan philosophy has become pagan philosophy. And the search for truth has been ended by the revealing of truth itself.

Regards

[Musicology]

Yes Yanni,

And we have the statement of Plato himself that the Greeks obtained much of their knowledge from the Egyptians.

As to whether the New Testament is consistent with what we call logic is perhaps less important than the question we might ask of logic - whether it, logic, is consistent with the New Testament. Since the wise Greeks saw in the New Testament something greater than all the philosophers. At least, so says history. For which we have lots of evidence -


Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoics, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' Hill, and said, 'Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked and others said, 'We will hear thee again of this matter'. So Paul departed from among them.

As for Koch and his published ideas on music, they are valuable, for sure. As are those of J.N. Forkel. Indeed, of these two writers, Forkel succeeded beyond anything achieved so far - in reducing these musical issues and value judgements to a simple point. Music which is the finest, he said, is that from which students of music may learn and further develop their skills and talents. So that Koch is mainly concerned with what music is fashionable and what has the best effect on audiences in concert halls and in performances. While Forkel is pointing out that musical fashions, trends, and the interests of the emerging music industry (together with the hyperbole and hero worship of individual reputations) are less important.

Forkel was right.


Yes, logic and the old "Bible" (to general a term- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible- please clarify) have only the greek inspired and written New Testament in common.

Keep on seeking signs if you must but try not misinterpreting them in the future otherwise your next "Beethoven" will never be completed either.

That's all beside the point however and you will not spoil my pleasure for answering Nancy Kovaleff Baker's agonising question if Koch ever put his composition theories into practice (Aesthetics and the art of musical composition in the German Enlightenment, by Johann Georg Sulzer,Nancy Kovaleff Baker,Thomas Street Christensen,Heinrich Christoph Koch).

...and try translating "aesthetics" and "music" into another language!

Regards.

[yanni]

Recognising and adopting what's true and valuable is both logical and scientific.

Mixing up fiction with fact is not and so is cooking up evidence to draw suitable conclusions.

....and you never answered what "Bible" you were referring to in your previous ....

Did you translate at least "music" and "aesthetics" into any other language, "egyptian" perhaps?

I do agree with you on one thing however: With debt to GDP ratios going through the roof now is the right time to start praying!

[Musicology]

I understand England is in a bigger financial mess than Greece. According to some data published the other day in London.

As for 'what Bible ?' I was not refering to any particular translation. It seems to me we don't need new translations but an understanding (revealing) of what we already have.

If you find any Koch/Cocchi information in connection with Bonn (which may link with G. Cocchi or others of that family, it would be interesting, for sure). A single family can have very many members, of course. Why, the ancestry of J.S. Bach alone involves no less than 30 different families of that name. And 4 distinct branches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family

Regards





Recognising and adopting what's true and valuable is both logical and scientific.

Mixing up fiction with fact is not and so is cooking up evidence to draw suitable conclusions.

....and you never answered what "Bible" you were referring to in your previous ....

Did you translate at least "music" and "aesthetics" into any other language, "egyptian" perhaps?

I do agree with you on one thing however: With depth to GDP ratios going through the roof now is the right time to start praying!

[Musicology]

Perhaps of interest, the famous music theorist, Francesco Antonio Valloti (1697-1780), who taught Andrea Luchesi in Venice, was in 1722 organist at St. Antonio in Padua. He became Maestro there in 1730 and held the position for another 50 years (till 1780). He was also associated with Giuseppe Tartini. (Tartini's unpublished treatise on violin playing being plundered and published by Leopold Mozart, first in 1756). Valloti and Tartini's were both careers that would have been associated with G. Cocchi.

(Valloti's musical importance cannot be over-stated. He spent a great deal of thought on the theory of harmony and counterpoint. His theoretical studies culminated in 1779 with publishing of a 167-page, four volume work, 'Della scienza teorica e pratica della moderna musica' ('On the scientific theory and practice of modern music'), just before the end of his life. The influence of Valloti's theories were found by Italian musical researchers A. Trombetta and L. Bianchini (2008) to exist in the musical score of 'Mozart's' opera, 'Le Nozze di Figaro' although, of course the real Mozart studied harmony not a day in his life. With the single exception of a few days token visit to Padua with Padre Martini).

Regards

[yanni]

Perhaps you are still bound by Ivanhoe's vows of eternal love for Rebecca and her benevolent banker-father and as such you refuse to touch the "Bible" issue (let alone "international finances" and their criminal, cacophonic and ridiculous enorchestration ) and rightly so: Any discussion on the old jewish "biblia" is bound to get lost in controversies, inconsistencies, distortions and lies in permanent need of "interpretation", this great task justifying the salaries of armies of goodfornothing bloodsucking "God communicating shepards" for centuries.

As the only online amateur genealogist of "Cocchi-Koch" I have laid out and presented in this forum in detail my "story", all known to me evidence and -drawn to my satisfaction- conclusions with regard to my own roots.

I have furthermore challenged you from early on in your previous thread on Mozart to dispute me and have then called , in this thread, all concerned to solve the "Koch-Beethoven" puzzle of title offering a 500 eur reward to all "Kochs" in particular to prove me wrong. Noone appeared, as expected, the issue is delicate!

You on the other hand, playing it both cowboy and indian all along, failed in both roles and, beyond your "Mozart was manufactured" breathtaking announcement, have offered nothing other in either threads than acting as the perfect punching bag for me and I therefore must thank you again.

Cheers!










I understand England is in a bigger financial mess than Greece. According to some data published the other day in London.

As for 'what Bible ?' I was not refering to any particular translation. It seems to me we don't need new translations but an understanding (revealing) of what we already have.

If you find any Koch/Cocchi information in connection with Bonn (which may link with G. Cocchi or others of that family, it would be interesting, for sure). A single family can have very many members, of course. Why, the ancestry of J.S. Bach alone involves no less than 30 different families of that name. And 4 distinct branches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family

Regards

[yanni]

You are referring to a post of yours of 2005 (http://www.gyrix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2234) quoting Giorgio Taboga who in turn quotes Fr.Leopold Kantner on apparent similarities between music styles of Mozart and "theoretician" Valloti who has not been honoured with a Wiki biography* (as a two minute google search shows) and was "invented" by Burney** in his trip to Italy 1771-1773's.

According to my own "spot another Saint Germain alias" rules, Valloti is definitely a candidate to pass thru the "all inclusive timeline" to see how he fits, the more so because of Burney's "testimony", the "theoretician"("Koch") label and his Mozart and Luchesi connections, I would thus ask you to bring the matter to signor Taboga's attention asking him to provide more- and more concrete-data on signor Valloti's whereabouts (dates, places) if he can and I would more than happy to accomodate all concerned.

Many italian musicians contributed to establishing various european "ethnic" musics during the second half of the 18th and my "theory" on Saint Germain provides the answer to all relative questions of musicological nature such as "who spoke their language and had the interest, the power and the means to invite, distribute, appoint and control them all?" .

....and by the way, of Valloti's "Della scienza teorica e pratica della moderna musica" , only volume I was published in 1779, the other three volumes only published in 1950.

....and Vallotti has another link to Rousseau : Chambéry, the french town known to have educated the first and to have hosted (and subsequently been adopted by) the latter prior to his arrival in Paris(http://www.sabaudia.org/v2/dossiers/rousseau/document1.php, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamb%C3%A9ry). Unforunately Vallotti's Chambery period of residence is not recorded online.

...and there is Abbe Roussier as well, who invented a previous musician, "abbe Rousseau", to separate him from Jean Jacques whose only work (Devin de village) he downgrades when editing Laborde's book on music-La Borde, Jean-Benjamin de. Essai sur la musique ancienne et moderne. Tome premier. Paris: Eugene Onfroy, 1780.

IE "Vallotti" is "Rousseau" (covering up his traces editing Laborde) and we have two or three more aliases of "Saint Germain".

Regards.


*A "Vallotti" wikibiography does exist however (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Antonio_Vallotti). He is said to have given music lessons to Vogler for five months in Padua....
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Joseph_Vogler)....propably late 1774-early 1775 (as per my timeline) but more specific dates on Vogler would be helpfull to draw conclusions.
Vogler's own biography and characteristics (round head, heavy build, much like Gaussec-Gluck) may provide the answer of the eventual existence of a musician brother of Gioachino Cocchi.

**In his "The Present State of Music in France and Italy: Or, the Journal of a Tour", Charles Burney declares his inability to distinguish between Valloti and Tartini and compares their use of mathematics in music to Rousseau's own theory, ie Tartini was most propably "Valloti's"/Gioachino Cocchi's/"Rousseau's" teacher, "divine" music at the time offended by "science" (mathematics) and Tartini's own pact with the "evil one". Burney's links to Cocchi-Rousseau-Koch etc have already been highlighted.




Perhaps of interest, the famous music theorist, Francesco Antonio Valloti (1697-1780), who taught Andrea Luchesi in Venice, was in 1722 organist at St. Antonio in Padua. He became Maestro there in 1730 and held the position for another 50 years (till 1780). He was also associated with Giuseppe Tartini. (Tartini's unpublished treatise on violin playing being plundered and published by Leopold Mozart, first in 1756). Valloti and Tartini's were both careers that would have been associated with G. Cocchi.

(Valloti's musical importance cannot be over-stated. He spent a great deal of thought on the theory of harmony and counterpoint. His theoretical studies culminated in 1779 with publishing of a 167-page, four volume work, 'Della scienza teorica e pratica della moderna musica' ('On the scientific theory and practice of modern music'), just before the end of his life. The influence of Valloti's theories were found by Italian musical researchers A. Trombetta and L. Bianchini (2008) to exist in the musical score of 'Mozart's' opera, 'Le Nozze di Figaro' although, of course the real Mozart studied harmony not a day in his life. With the single exception of a few days token visit to Padua with Padre Martini).

Regards

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni.

If I can condense matters (from my perspective, that is), the musical links Leopold Mozart had (even before the birth of Wolfgang) included those he had formed with Padua and with Venice. Dating back to the time of Hasse. (In fact the German composer Hasse was the man who wrote to the Venetian occultist Abbe Ortes before father and son Mozart ever went to Italy). Padua had been hugely important in the teaching of Aristotelian philosophy and ideas of oligarchy to the nobility of England. For example, early mercantile fleets of England which led to final formation of the British East India Company. This spread of occultism into the mercantile/aristocracy of England (in helping to form its giant mercantile and banking empire in London) came through these same occultist Venetians. The University of Padua was the academic centre of Venetian expansion into England and was also of crucial importance in the arts from the earliest years of the Jesuit Order. The later 'secularisation' known as the 'enlightenment' was controlled by Jesuit alliance with occultist Venice (from the earliest days of its creation as an order) and it owed much to men such as Cardinal Contarini of Venice). Padua also had a major role in young Mozart's reception in Italy. And yes, Valloti and others such as Luchesi were all part of this movement. As was Padre Martini himself, Abbe Vogler, Luchesi and numerous others.

The harmonic system of Valloti was very modern at the time Mozart supposedly composed 'Le Nozze di Figaro' (1785-6) and yet we find clear evidence of it in the theatre score at the Austrian National Library (the score used at the Vienna premiere) of Valloti's own harmonic ideas within it.

You refer to Giorgio Taboga. (A major researcher in to the life and career of Andrea Luchesi, amongst other things). Well, actually, musical analysis of that Figaro score (which shows the unmistakable influence of Valloti's harmonic theory within it) was made by Luca Bianchini and Anna Trombetta, two experts in 18th century operatic music. These two authors of 'Figaro - Aria Della Contessa' (2008) were also first to show photographic evidence of the musical contents of that score in detail.

We know Mozart, the real Mozart, knew virtually nothing of Valloti's theory and never read it or studied it. But others around his official career obviously had.

Here is the full article in 'Grove' on Valloti. I agree that it is not very specific about the various parts of his career. I have other sources too.

Vallotti, Francesco Antonio

(b Vercelli, Piedmont, 11 June 1697; d Padua, 10 Jan 1780). Italian composer and theorist. He was enabled by Padre Beccaria, superior of the Franciscan monastery of S Eusebi (the cathedral of Vercelli), to study with G.A. Bissone, maestro di cappella at the cathedral. His scores dated 1710 and 1712 demonstrate a thorough schooling in composition. An interest in theology and philosophy led him to further studies; at the age of 18 he visited Chambéry to join the Franciscan order, and he then spent a year in Crest (Dauphiné) where he took vows on 16 December 1716. By special dispensation, on account of his youth, from the Bishop of Saluzzo, Vallotti was ordained priest on 7 July 1720, after a period of study in Cuneo under the philosopher Castellani the elder. In 1721 Castellani sponsored him in a public debate possibly in Milan where he went to study with the theologian D.F. Donati; Donati moved to Padua and Vallotti followed him, arriving on 6 November 1721.

It is generally believed that Vallotti continued musical studies in Padua with F.A. Calegari, maestro di cappella of the basilica of S Antonio. He was elected third organist of the basilica, succeeding G.L. Albori, on 28 December 1722 and took up the post the following February. There he could learn Calegari’s musical theory, upon which, he later admitted, his own was partly based. While his dedication to his musical duties may not initially have exceeded those of other university students who sometimes served as temporary organists or choristers, it doubtless increased after his failure in October 1723 to qualify for advanced theological studies. In the latter half of 1725 he replaced Alessio Quadrio at the fourth organ at functions not requiring the third, and late in 1727, when the Paduan composer G.A. Rinaldi took over from Calegari as maestro di cappella, Vallotti was granted an increase in salary (from 80 to 100 ducats annually) for assisting the ailing maestro. Several compositions from this time as well as his theoretical work – Vallotti later claimed that his theoretical system was worked out by 1728 – must have recommended him as Rinaldi’s successor. After Rinaldi’s death (8 December 1729), however, Vallotti’s candidacy was challenged, but recommendations from Antonio Lotti, Antonio Biffi and Antonio Pacelli in Venice prompted the basilica’s administrators to appoint him maestro (by four votes to three) on 21 February 1730. He held the position for 50 years, with an annual salary of 200 ducats plus 40 ducats for music paper and copyists.

Vallotti was now in charge of a choir of 16 singers and a celebrated orchestra of 16 string players, with Tartini as leader and Vandini as first cellist. There were also several wind players; although inexplicably absent from Tartini’s scores, an oboe, trumpet and at least two organs were usually available and Vallotti’s music calls for these along with bassoon and horn (the two last reserved for high feasts). Vallotti, rather than Tartini, was officially consulted when new instrumentalists were engaged, and he conducted the orchestra whenever it accompanied the choir. Curiously, in some of his liturgical works the instrumental sections lacked a melodic line, unless (as Tebaldini conjectured) Tartini or another violinist improvised a part against the figured bass. The quality and size of the orchestra gradually declined after a fire in the basilica in 1749. When Burney heard the group in 1770, he thought it inferior to its reputation and complained of the loud accompanying organ. By the beginning of the 19th century the musical forces had further deteriorated, and Vallotti’s successors Antonio Calegari and Melchiorre Balbi reduced many of his works for four voices and orchestra to two-part men’s choir with organ.

As well as a concerted choral style, Vallotti cultivated a strict contrapuntal manner based on his study of 16th-century masters. Between about 1730 and 1760 he transcribed numerous masses of Palestrina, the introits of Costanzo Porta (1566) and other Renaissance works (now in I-Pca). His own antiphons and introits with a tenor cantus firmus in long notes represent a masterful synthesis of Renaissance contrapuntal techniques and tonal harmonic requirements. His reputation as a contrapuntist prompted other Franciscans such as G.B. Martini in Bologna, Giuseppe Paolucci in Venice and A.M. Belli in Assisi to request scores to study and perform. Frederick the Great commissioned a mass and Te Deum for the dedication in 1773 of St Hedwig’s Cathedral, Berlin, and a few years later Carl Theodor, Elector Palatine, sent Vallotti a gold medal to commemorate performances of his music in Mannheim (as related in correspondence with Vallotti’s former pupil G.J. Vogler in 1776). Knowledge of Vallotti’s contrapuntal art was transmitted to the 19th century mainly by L.A. Sabbatini’s Trattato sopra le fughe (Venice, 1802), which quoted extensively from Vallotti’s compositions. Verdi’s admiration for Vallotti was probably fostered by that book or by Asioli’s Trattato d’armonia (Milan, 1813), which quoted Vallotti’s music briefly but called him ‘the greatest of Italian harmonists’. In 1896, when Verdi was composing his Te Deum, he reported to Boito his youthful studies of Vallotti’s music and wrote to Tebaldini at Padua asking for a copy of a Vallotti's Te Deum.

Vallotti’s importance as a theorist has not yet been gauged. Except for the first volume of his magnum opus Della scienza teorica e pratica, published shortly before his death, his theoretical writings have remained little known. In 1783 the second, third and fourth books of this treatise were entrusted to G.B. Martini and, although Martini wrote prefaces to each and enthusiastically recommended their publication, they were not printed until 1950 when they were issued in an unscholarly edition as Trattato della moderna musica. In addition to technical descriptions of intervals, chords and other elements of music, Vallotti included practical guidance on numerous musical problems, including an elegant system of unequal temperament for tuning keyboard instruments (see Well-tempered clavier). In the third book Vallotti explains that F.A. Calegari discovered the relationship between the root position and inversions of chords, and that both he and Vallotti applied this knowledge in their compositions from the mid-1720s even though they did not learn until about 1737 of Rameau’s treatment of inversions in his Traité de l’harmonie (1722). Vallotti’s ideas on this subject are discussed by L.A. Sabbatini in his Trattato di contrappunto (I-Pca). It should be mentioned that Vallotti did not agree with Calegari in all matters, nor with Tartini in certain theoretical details. Vallotti’s treatise is not a simplification of Tartini’s Trattato of 1754. While the published portion is less technical than Tartini’s, manuscripts with Vallotti’s algebraic calculations in the S Antonio archives (along with his acknowledgement of assistance from Abbot Suzzi and Alessandro Barca, professors at Padua University) indicate a mathematical interest in no way inferior to Tartini’s. Vallotti’s correspondence with Count Giordano Riccati di Castelfranco from 1734 until 1777 probes deeply into scientific matters relating to music.

In a letter of 22 November 1733 to J.J. Fux, Vallotti argued that Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum of 1725 should have recognized the 12 modes used by Palestrina, Porta and others instead of claiming that there were but six; he added that the 12 modes of the ancients were replaced by two scales, the major and minor (as he explained in the treatise that he was then writing). As well as this letter to Fux, Vallotti’s correspondence includes 74 letters to G.B. Martini (dated 1734–79, in I-Bc) and a further 63 folders of letters (Pca), many of which await examination. His detailed criticisms made in 1760 and 1779, when helping to select maestri for S Petronio, Bologna, and Milan Cathedral, are extant with the candidates’ pieces (in Bc, Bsf, Md). Vallotti’s private collection of letters, compositions, theoretical writings and other papers were deposited in the archive of the Arca del Santo, the governing body of S Antonio, in May 1791. A marble statue of Vallotti was to have been erected in the basilica according to a decree of 16 December 1782, but instead his bust was placed with a full-length statue of Tartini in the Prato della Valle in 1806. A tablet commemorating Vallotti was added in the same park in 1881. Two portraits in oil are in the basilica.

WORKS

For thematic catalogue, see Massaro (in Cattin, 1981)

many MSS in I-Ac and Pca are autograph scores; most works a 4 for SATB; most accompaniments for organ and strings

masses, mass movements
Kyrie–Gloria–Credo: 2vv, A-Wgm, Wn, I-Pca, Vnm; 3vv, VId; 4vv, A-Wgm, D-Bsb, Dlb

Kyrie: 3vv, I-Vnm; 4vv, D-Mbs, I-Pc, Pca; 5vv, Pca, Vnm; 8vv, Pca

Gloria: 2vv, Pca, Vnm; 4vv, A-Wn, D-Mbs, I-Ac, Bc, Pca; 5vv, Bc, Pca; 8vv, D-Mbs, I-Ac, Bc, Pca, Pl

Credo: 2vv, Pca, Vnm; 4vv, A-Wn, D-Bsb, Mbs, I-Bc, Pc, Pca, Pl, Vnm; 5vv, D-Mbs, I-Pca; 6vv, Vnm; 8vv, Ac

Gratias agimus, 1v, Pca; Qui tollis, 1–4vv, D-Mbs, I-Pca; Qui sedes, 1v, Pca; Quoniam, 1v, Pca; Cum sancto spiritu, 8vv, Bc; Crucifixus, 2vv, Vnm


requiem mass movements
Introit: 2vv, I-Pca; 4vv, Bc, Pc, Pca, Pl

Sequence: 2vv, Pca; 4vv, A-Wgm, Wn, D-Bsb, I-Bc, Bsf, Pc, Pca, Pl, Vnm; 5vv, A-Wn, D-Dlb, GB-Lbl, I-Pca, Tn

Other movts: 4vv, D-Mbs; 8vv, I-Bc, Pc, Pca


other sacred vocal
Esequie per i teologi defunti, 4vv, I-Pca

Vespers for the dead, 8vv, Pca, Vnm

Introits, 2–8vv, A-Wn, I-Pca

Antiphons: Alma Redemptoris mater, 1–8vv, I-Pca; Ave regina, 1–8vv, Pca, Vnm; Regina coeli, 1–8vv, Pca; Salve regina, 1–8vv, A-Wn, D-Bsb, Dlb, Mbs, I-Bc, Pca; 4 ants with pss for Compline, 8vv, Ac, Pca; Vesper ants, 1–8vv, D-Mbs, I-Pca

Psalms: Beati omnes, 2vv, Pca; Beatus vir, 4–8vv, A-Wgm, Wn, D-Bsb, Dlb, Mbs, I-Ac, Bc, Pca; Benedictus, 4vv, VId; Confitebor, 2–8vv, Pca; Credidi propter, 8vv, Pca; Cum invocarem, 2–4vv, Pca; De profundis, 4–8vv, A-Wgm, Wn, I-Bc, FAN, Pca, Vnm; Dixit Dominus, 4–8vv, Bc, Pca; Domine ad adiuvandum, 4–8vv, Pca; Ecce nunc, 2–3vv, Pca; Ecce quam bonum, 8vv, Pca; In convertendo Dominus, 8vv, D-Bsb, I-Pca; In exitu Israel, 8vv, D-Bsb, Mbs, I-Pca; In te Domine speravi, 2vv, Pca; Laetatus sum, 8vv, A-Wn, I-Pca; Lauda Jerusalem, 8vv, Pca; Laudate Dominum, 4–8vv, Pca; Laudate pueri, 2–8vv, Pca, Vnm; Memento Domine, 8vv, Pca; Miserere, 2–4vv, A-Wgm, GB-Ob, I-Fc, Mc, Pc, Pca, VId, Vnm; Nisi Dominus, 2–8vv, Pca; Quaemadmodum, 8vv, Pca; Quam dilecta, 8vv, Pca; Qui habitat, 8vv, Pca; Voce me ad Dominum, 8vv, Ac, Bc, Pc; Pss for Terce, 8vv, Pca; Compline pss with 4 antiphons, 8vv, Ac; Pss for Vespers for the dead, 8vv, Pca

Responses: for Holy Week, 4vv, A-Wn, D-Mbs, I-Pca; for Pontifical funeral, 8vv, Pca; for S Spina, 8vv, Pca; others, D-Bsb, Mbs; In monte olive, 4vv, LÜh; O lingua benedicta, 1v, I-Pca; Si quaeris miracula, 2–8vv, A-Wgm, D-Dlb, Mbs, I-Bc, Pca, Vnm

Hymns: Pange lingua, 1–4vv, Bc, Pca; Tantum ergo, 4–8vv, Ac, Pc; Te Deum, 2–8vv, D-Bsb, I-Ac, Pca; Te lucis, 1v, Pca; Ut queant laxis, 3vv, Vnm; Veni creator, 8vv, Pca, VId; others, 1–4vv, Pca; Trisagio ed inno pei Martedi di S Antonio, Vnm

Canticles: Mag, 4–8vv, A-Wgm, Wn, I-Pca, Vnm; Nunc, 2–4vv, Pca

Litanies: VId; della BVM, Pca; pel Sabato Santo, Pca; dei Santi, Pc, Pca

Versicles: De torrente, 1v, Pca; Et misericordia, 1v, Pca; Gloria Patri, 1v, Pca; In manus tuas, 1v, Pca; In noctibus, 1v, Pca; Jube Domine, 2–4vv, Pca; O vos omnes, 3–4vv, A-Wgm, Wn, F-Pn, I-Bc, BGc, Md, Pc, Pca, Vnm; Quid sum miser, 1v, Pc, Pca; Qui sicut, 1v, Pca; Sepulto Domino, 3–4vv, A-Wn, F-Pn, I-Bc, BGc, Md, Pca, Vnm; Tecum principium, 1v, Pca

Others: Confiteor Deo, 1v, Pca; En gratulemur, 8vv, Pca; Laetare Doctor inclyte, 1v, Bsf; Lauda Sion, sequence, 4vv, Pc, Pca; 9 lessons for Holy Week, 1v, Pca; O lingua benedicta, 1–8vv, Pca; Pietà vi supplico, 2vv, A-Wn; Popule meus, 4vv, A-Wgm, D-Bsb; Salve Sancte Pater, 8vv, I-Ac; Transiti di S Antonio, 3vv, A-Wn, D-Bsb, F-Pn, I-Pca, Vnm; Alleluia, Benedictus, Tract, etc., for Holy Saturday, 8vv, Pca; 3 motets, 1v, A-Wn, D-Bsb, I-Pca


secular
Figli, qual duol v’ingombra? (cant.), T, D-Mbs, I-Vnm

22 fugues, 4 insts, D-Mbs

8 fugues, insts, I-CORc


theoretical works
Della scienza teorica e pratica della moderna musica, bk1 (Padua, 1779); bks2–4, MS, I-Pca [preliminary drafts of bks1–4, Pca]; ed. G. Zanon and B. Rizzi as Trattato della moderna musica (Padua, 1950)

Una memoria di varie decisioni teorico-pratiche spettanti al giusto intendimento delle materie musicali (MS, 1725, Pca)

Serie di vari autori greci, latini, italiani e francesi che hanno scritto della musica o antica o moderna con varie erudizioni ed opinioni diversi (MS, 1732, Pca)

Trattato dei tuoni modali, si ecclesiastici corali, che musicali ed armoniali, i: Compendio storico de’ tuoni modali della musica greca, del canto ecclesiastico, del canto figurato e della moderna musica; ii: Trattato de’ tuoni modali, in cui si tratta dei dodici tuoni ecclesiastici e corali (MSS, 1733–5, Pca)

Se il tuono minore naturale abbia per base la corda e ottava di D la sol re ovvero quella di A la mi re (MS, Pca)

Dell’estensione e carattere dei più comuni stromenti (MS, Vnm)

Contrappunto principii (MS, Vnm)

11 bassi del prete Francescantonio Vallotti (MS, Vnm); others, D-MÜs

2 untitled MSS: calculations to establish the weight of bells according to their sounds, project to construct an organ, both I-Pca


BIBLIOGRAPHY

BurneyFI

EitnerQ

FétisB

GerberL

GerberNL

MGG1(S. Martinotti)

L.A. Sabbatini: Notizie sopra la vita e le opere del rev. P.F.A. Vallotti (Padua, 1780)

F. Fanzago: Orazione ne’ funerali del R.P. Francesco Antonio Vallotti recitata nella chiesa del Santo (Padua, c1780)

G. Riccati: ‘Riflessioni … sopra il Libro primo della scienza teorica e pratica della moderna musica del P. Francescantonio Vallotti’, Nuovo giornale de' letterati d’Italia, xxiii (1787), 45–115

F. Fanzago: Elogi di tre uomini illustri: Tartini, Vallotti, e Gozzi, con una orazione gratulatoria (Padua, 1792), 61–99

A. L.: Nell’anniversario centesimoprimo dalla morte del celebre maestro di musica P. Francesco Antonio Vallotti (Padua, 1881)

G. Tebaldini: L’archivio musicale della Cappella Antoniana di Padova (Padua, 1895), 7, 19–20, 44ff, 114ff

C. Negri: Brevi considerazioni sull’evoluzione storica ed estetica della musica: biografie di musicisti vercellesi (Vercelli, 1909), 55–103

A. Sartori: ‘I frati del Santo ricordati nella toponomastica cittadina di Padova’,Bollettino della provincia patavina di S. Antonio, xxx (1960), 320

O. Wessely: Johann Joseph Fux und Francesco Antonio Vallotti (Graz, 1967)

G. Cattin, ed.: Francescantonio Vallotti nel secondo centenario della morte (1780–1980) (Padua, 1981) [incl. articles by L. Frasson, F.A. Gallo, E. Grossato, L.M. Kantner and V.S. Zaccaria]

M. Lindley: ‘La “pratica ben regolata” de Francescantonio Vallotti’, RIM, xvi (1981), 45–95

P. Barbieri: ‘Martini e gli armonisti “fisico-matematici”: Tartini, Rameau, Riccati, Vallotti’, Padre Martini: Bologna 1984, 173–209

S. Hansell: ‘Padua Viewed From Bologna: Martini's Opinion of Calegari and Vallotti Conjectured’, Quaderni della Rivista Italiana di Musicologia, xii (1987), 237–59

P. Barbieri: ‘Calegari, Valotti, Riccati e le teorie armoniche di Rameau: priorita, concordanze, contrasti’, RIM, xxvi (1991), 241–302

P. Revoltella: ‘Musiche di Vallotti dell’epistolario di Giorfano Riccati’, Contributi per la storia della musica sacra a Padova, ed. G. Cattin and A. Lovato (Padua, 1993), 247–97

[yanni]

Your effort to condense matters would be incomplete without....

Roussier, Pierre-Joseph ["Par M. l'Abbé Roussier"]
Mémoire sur la musique des anciens
Chez Lacombe, Paris 1770 - Où l'on expose le Principe des Proportions authentiques, dites de Pythagore, & de divers Systêmes de Musique chez les Grecs, les Chinois & les Egyptiens. Avec un Parallè entre le Systême des Egyptiens & celui des Modernes. [6] xxiv, 252 pages, . One folding table (relating planets to days of the week and hours of the day and notes on the scale), one plate of musical notation (engraved by Pierre-Laurent Charpentier), a brief musical quotation printed in the text, and an in-text engraving, repeated twice. [B]According to musicologist François-Joseph Fétis (see Mary Arlin's translation of his Esquisse de l'histoire de l'harmonie, Pendragon Press, 1994, pp. 101–105), Abbé Roussier made significant observations about harmony and chords, proposing theoretical chords and progressions "that only Mozart's genius and a small number of his contemporaries and successors had known how to bring into play." Unfortunately, Roussier's insight was undone by his fascination with astrology and ancient civilizations, leading him in this book to explore connections between music, numerology, the planets, ancient Egyptian mysticism, and Greek art.

....and there are still many more links between "Rousseau", "Roussier", "Vallotti", and Burney (and Rameau, Voltaire, "La Borde" and "Hennin"*) and (I assume as not familiar with music theory) obvious similarities of the pythagorean musical methods and principles adopted by "them", "Koch" included and therefore "Gluck" as well.

The cover up is much wider than what you insist on believing (and I have still to check your "Johann Adolf Hasse" whose biography is generally so similar to my hero's).

And spare me your world theories: "They" were acting against "old" Rome, keen to establish a new religion to fit the rising "New World" and had secured propably insider collaboration from a future "new" Rome as well, until 1778 at least(Rousseau's "death" and subsequent attack on "Roussier" and his orientalism). Possibly an attempt to fool "bankers" into financing american aid.

And spare me also of Grove quotes:

50 years of Vallotti's life are "lost", his whole biography is "made up" just like all others concerning "him".

And "astrology" (Cassini de Thury-Belderbusch jr) is another strong pointer to.

Regards.

*La Borde is mentioned by Voltaire in his letter to France's resident in Geneva, P.M.Hennin, dated 28th Jan 1767. He (V) is in dire financial situation having to pay the salaries of many (200) people working in "his" (actually "a" Saint Germain owned Ferney, see http://societe-voltaire.org/cv-index.php) chateau, and is thankfull to "La Borde" for payments received. There were two "Hennins" (Pierre Michel and Jean Michel-de "Beaupre") propably interchanging roles during their stay in Geneva (1765-1778) and elsewhere, with Mme D'Epinay acting as their secretary. And there was a theatrical troupe and new productions as well at Ferney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferney-Voltaire.)

(Also see "Correspondance inédite de Voltaire avec P.M. Hennin" by "Voltaire". Relative info is not to be taken as a serious source however: It was edited in 1819 and published by Michel Hennin (Pierre Michel's son and my ggggrandfather) in 1825 (during his stay in Misssolonghi) and was certainly "tuned" with "outside help" (Merlin publishers, Paris) accordingly.)

Before Ferney Voltaire was living (till 1765) at Les Delices owned by a swissfrench family, Mallet, inlaws of P.M. Hennin.

...and Abbe Terray or Terrail, Contrôleur général des finances (1771-1774) was another of their aliases. See in this regard http://wapedia.mobi/de/Caspar_Anton_von_Belderbusch whose career 1771-74 in Bonn's culture and finances seems rather "vague"- with the notable exception of founding Bonn's University at the time.

"La Borde", "Abbe Terray", "Roussier" and "Caspar Anton Belderbsuch" are one and the same(an eventual brother is not excluded) with "Vallotti", "Hennin", "Koch", Gluck", "Saint Germain" etc. Terray is also "included"-implanted rather- in Voltaire-Hennin correspondence (somehow as a more conservative donnor than La Borde). La Borde's court position and titles in 1773 are those of my "Augustin Henry Cochin-de Beaupre-Cocchi" btw.

...and so was the prussian dance expert (hah-hah) and composer http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_de_Cahusac ("Rameau's nephew", Marie Fel's beau and contributor to L'Encyclopedie).

Anyone cares to dance?

[Musicology]

Yanni,

It seems your method is to 'muddy the water' whenever we come in sight of the bottom of the pond ! Since your last post is typically filled with 'names' whose association/identities are a mystery known only to yourself. Swirling around each other like muddy water draining down a sink. So we become ever more confused about the picture you are painting, and not less so. You believe your 'timeline' for countless individuals is proof although, in reality, you seem reluctant to admit that a musicologist, or a theorist, or a composer, is not the same as making sausages or painting walls with white paint. These are highly skilled, focused, and dedicated arts. To suggest, therefore, that a man can be six, or ten, or twenty different people, all at the same time, all of them writing music, acting as diplomats, teaching students, travelling across Europe, writing books, composing operas and a thousand other things - all shrouded by countless pseudonyms is, to me, such a flawed, subjective, and unproved thesis that common sense says it's not right.

You speak of '"They" were acting against "old" Rome, keen to establish a new religion...' etc.

But that is exactly correct. The Church of Rome was at war with Venice. And it was only diplomacy which allowed Venice to continue as an independent territory. That's history. It's history too that the formation of the occultist Jesuit Order was helped by the Venetians. It is history that the Illuminatists came from a Jesuit university. It is history that the monopoly of the Jesuit Order on printing, book publishing, censorship and other roles was taken over by this same Illuminatist movement. Amazing coincidences just continue. And it's plain, documented fact that Venice (and its occultists) were the major makers of the British Empire. Transfering assets and men to England to create the City of London, its banking system, and even developing Freemasonry within England from its Venetian ('Giovani') origins. All of these things are true. It is also true that the Royal Society (a body formed in England to pursue scientific enquiry) had amongst its founder members occultists. This also is true. It's true that the infiltration of the English government came by the Venetian/Jesuit occultists. It is true that the University of Padua was used by English elites of the British Empire. And that Padua was also the centre where the Venetian oligarchs studied their system of oligarchical empire. Soon transfered with all the rest to the British elite system of government. None of this is fiction. It's all fact. The names of those who are associated with the official career of Mozart are one and the same people. And that too is not a coincidence. Since Rome and its church were infested by occultists. Just as the government of England was.

Empires are not built on individuals but upon hierarchies and networks. That is what Empires are. They transcend the individual and they transcend national boundaries. As we see here. To suggest, therefore, that Cocchi or any other individual was ten or twenty people is so dogmatic and so flimsy an argument that not even the 'timeline' makes sense.

Instead of insisting you are right why not accept the modest fact that Cocchi was part of a network, of a movement ? A musician who was part of a network who included many individuals. As anyone can surely see. I cannot see why you would find this difficult. Other than the fact that your 'timeline' seems sacred to you.

I know differently. There were dozens and dozens of other careers and they were not all G. Cocchi.

Sorry to break this news to you but if you cannot accept it you will definitely remain the one and only person who believes that G. Cocchi was many people.

A man may have several aliases. True. But his works are not those of twenty people. And this fact will always remain. As will the glaring deficiencies of your 'timeline'.

Your research is good. But what is not good are the conclusions you draw from it. They (your conclusions) are ruining the good you have done in your research. And I say this honestly, sincerely.

Regards

[yanni]

So, you think you can still dance without specifics and hard facts, dear Watson?

Why don't you prove me wrong by presenting your evidence, dispute the identity of any of my aliases, highlight the "glaring defficiencies" in my timeline,win the "Kochs" award and make your day?

Or is your "sense" too "common" perhaps, leading you to unfounded conclusions?

Besides "music", Cocchi was incharge of "encyclopedists" and "freemasons" as well (and had many working and supplementing for him. He also took great care creating his aliases also), I never said otherwise.

"Saint Germain" owned Ferney, must I repeat it? (See post 27 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35779&page=2 for source).

Enjoy you Grove dictionary!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I know you are wrong. Your 'timeline' has never been posted here. And, in your system, names can be added to it all the time.

Why not post here your timeline ? So we can all see it ?

Then I will happily show these multiple aliases cannot be correct. It's rather simple.

You now say 'Cocchi had many working and supplementing for him'. Isn't that exactly my point ? But you want a vast system of people who are Cocchi and another vast system who are 'working and supplementing for him'. In other words, you want it both ways at the same time. Don't you ?

A recipe for total confusion, no ?



So, you think you can still dance without specifics and hard facts, dear Watson?

Why don't you prove me wrong by presenting your evidence, dispute the identity of any of my aliases, highlight the "glaring defficiencies" in my timeline,win the "Kochs" award and make your day?

Or is your "sense" too "common" perhaps, leading you to unfounded conclusions?

Besides "music", Cocchi was incharge of "encyclopedists" and "freemasons" as well (and had many working and supplementing for him. He also took great care creating his aliases also), I never said otherwise.

"Saint Germain" owned Ferney, must I repeat it? (See post 27 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35779&page=2 for source).

Enjoy you Grove dictionary!

[yanni]

Prove what you know then.

My timeline is much to big (1434Kbytes, 147 A4 pages plus footnotes), complicated and in need of editing (four or five different languages, "within year" rearrangement and more additions are required) to be posted here but its usefullness has already been demonstrated repeatedly, in parallel and at the expense of your worthy efforts to dispute me.

I have been saying all along that he used many aliases and was in charge of many others, well trained and more than willing to replace him, and possibly a musician brother as well, you know it but you still must say something or other being in a such a disadvantage.

After "Poe decoded" I never again complained against "confusion" in general (selecting instead to name and attack the perpetrators) and have now defeated it, but you did: To justify your "difficulty" to identify Mozart's manufacturer.

So let go of your generalities and be more specific:

What does Grove write, or Wikipedia, or the British Encyclopedia about "Voltaire's" chateau in Ferney(owned by "a" Saint Germain), for instance?

Or about Vogler's 1771-1774 whereabouts(in particular), or his "peculiar" music or his works or his "influence" on your honoured R.Browning (and v.v.)?

Not that I'd give a shilling to learn, mind you: Idiotic attempts to cover things up fall outside my interests alltogether!

Here is a good book that will clear away your musicological confusion: "In praise of harmony: the teachings of Abbé Georg Joseph Vogler" by Floyd Kersey Grave,Margaret G. Grave, (On "remarkable" similarities-see Epilogue-between Rousseau's, Koch's, Vogler's and Valloti's "music of the spheres" principles. Roussier, La Borde and Gaussec are not mentioned however.)

Enjoy!

:driving:



Yanni,

I know you are wrong. Your 'timeline' has never been posted here. And, in your system, names can be added to it all the time.

Why not post here your timeline ? So we can all see it ?

Then I will happily show these multiple aliases cannot be correct. It's rather simple.

You now say 'Cocchi had many working and supplementing for him'. Isn't that exactly my point ? But you want a vast system of people who are Cocchi and another vast system who are 'working and supplementing for him'. In other words, you want it both ways at the same time. Don't you ?

A recipe for total confusion, no ?

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I've said it before. Your research is important, valuable, and relevant. All I am doubting are the conclusions you draw from it, the interpretation you give to it, etc.

Since your timeline is 147 pages long of A4 Pages ('plus footnotes, complicated and in need of editing, 4 or 5 different languages') etc. it is information available only to your goodself. And has not, by your admission, been condensed or simplified, nor shared with anyone to form a judgement on it. In such a case you are working with material which is, at best, in need of refinement, presentation and simplification. Without which it is unfair and unreasonable to suppose it will be believed by anyone. With the best will in the world.

But before you do this task (or before you consider doing it) the fact remains that these events were taking place within a highly structured, hierarchical society. One in which networks, fraternities, and elite patronage were factors. Further increasing the likelihood that we are not discussing the life and works of one man but of many. A network, in fact. That's all I'm saying.

I will check the Grove as you suggest (and other sources) although I know already the 'Voltaire' chateau in Ferney was used by Voltaire, Grimm and others. And that a St. Germain was associated with it. Again tending to prove what we are both saying - a network.

Anyway, I hope to post again soon.

Very best wishes






Prove what you know then.

My timeline is much to big (1434Kbytes, 147 A4 pages plus footnotes), complicated and in need of editing (four or five different languages, "within year" rearrangement and more additions are required) to be posted here but its usefullness has already been demonstrated repeatedly, in parallel and at the expense of your worthy efforts to dispute me.

I have been saying all along that he used many aliases and was in charge of many others, well trained and more than willing to replace him, and possibly a musician brother as well, you know it but you still must say something or other being in a such a disadvantage.

After "Poe decoded" I never again complained against "confusion" in general (selecting instead to name and attack the perpetrators) and have now defeated it, but you did: To justify your "difficulty" to identify Mozart's manufacturer.

So let go of your generalities and be more specific:

What does Grove write, or Wikipedia, or the British Encyclopedia about "Voltaire's" chateau in Ferney(owned by "a" Saint Germain), for instance?

Or about Vogler's 1771-1774 whereabouts(in particular), or his "peculiar" music or his works or his "influence" on your honoured R.Browning (and v.v.)?

Not that I'd give a shilling to learn, mind you: Idiotic attempts to cover things up fall outside my interests alltogether!

Here is a good book that will clear away your musicological confusion: "In praise of harmony: the teachings of Abbé Georg Joseph Vogler" by Floyd Kersey Grave,Margaret G. Grave, (On "remarkable" similarities-see Epilogue-between Rousseau's, Koch's, Vogler's and Valloti's "music of the spheres" principles. Roussier, La Borde and Gaussec are not mentioned however.)

Enjoy!

:driving:

[yanni]

Whenever you decide to be specific answering my questions, dear Robert, you'll be more than wellcome to return in this thread of mine and perhaps, why not, claim the Koch trophy to cure your bitterness.

Other readers of this thread will perhaps be interested to notice that my conclusions on Cocchi and his aliases provide the answer to specific parts of an essay on Haydn's Orfeo (copyright Lygia O'Riordan) highlighted by yourstruly:

Haydn with his unlucky Opera may perhaps have succeeded best in building an intense and flowing drama on the scale of the great Greek tragic plays. His use of the choir to comment on the drama throughout, as in the great Greek tragedies is masterly. His use of major keys to portray tragedy and drama shows an insight in to the colour of tonalities that is unsurpassed. And yet fate dictated that he would never hear the opera himself. During the first rehearsal of Orpheo and Euridice in 1791 at the Haymarket Theatre in London, when no more than 40 bars had been played, official emissaries of King George the Third abruptly interrupted the music and on the express orders of the King, banned the rehearsal to continue. To contravene this order would have meant jail.
The Theatre had been refused a licence for Opera by the King and therefore could not open after its reconstruction following a fire in 1789. Concerts and Ballet in the theatre would be permitted but no opera was allowed. The performance was banned and Orpheo and Euridice lay unperformed for over 150 years until 1951 when Maria Callas and Erich Kleiber gave the first performance in Florence and Joan Sutherland and Richard Bonynge the first Viennese performance at the Vienna Festival in 1967.

Of great interest is Haydn's use of the chorus, which resembles the structure of a great Sophocles tragedy. The Chorus narrates andcomments throughout the opera. We know that Haydn had been fascinated by English choruses, by their excellence and their size. This may also have influenced his decision to give the choir such an important role.
Another fascinating element in the opera is Haydn's choice of keys. In 1768 Jean-Jacques Rousseau had developed a table with the characteristics of different keys.
His thesis was that F and the flat major keys express gravity or majesty and the sharp major keys brilliance or joy. Abt Vogler and H.C. Koch argued that keys which used many open strings on the violin had a much brighter, sharper sound whereas keys using closed strings had a darker sound. Haydn's choice of E flat major for Orpheo's final aria is daring and imaginative. Rather than using a minor key, Haydn has combined this dark sound of E flat major with unforgettable orchestration, such as the bassoon which almost wails in accompaniment to Orpheo's grief.
Haydn's Orpheo and Euridice is a masterpiece, which deserves to be established firmly in the repertoire of opera companies today. In the words of Stendhal: "Haydn left London with eleven completed numbers of his Orpheo among his luggage- eleven numbers, which, I have been credibly assured represent his finest achievements in operatic music and so returned to Austria".

A historian wishing to place Haydn's Orfeo in a timetable will be dissapointed to note that Wikipedia barely mentions the work and ommits to give the exact date of Haydn's attempt to stage it in London, even ommiting the year.

The only misstep in the venture was an opera, Orfeo ed Euridice, also called L'Anima del Filosofo, which Haydn was contracted to compose, but whose performance was blocked by intrigues.[35]

Other Haydn Wiki data however, such as his life span, his musical characteristics....

Franz Joseph Haydn[1][2] (March 31, 1732 – May 31, 1809) was an Austrian composer. He was one of the most prolific and prominent composers of the classical period. He is often called the "Father of the Symphony" and "Father of the String Quartet" because of his important contributions to these genres. He was also instrumental in the development of the piano trio and in the evolution of sonata form.[3][4]

...as well as his 1792 portrait by Thomas Hardy (looking very much like a younger "Carl Ludwig Cocceji" -his 1802 medal as president of Bohemia), definitely place Joseph Haydn in the list of tentative "Cocchi aliases candidates".

More to follow soon.

[yanni]

Ommiting, for obvious reasons, birth details, here is the precious few data of Haydn's music life quoted from Catholic Encyclopedia:

He began his great musical career in the choir-school of St. Stephen's, Vienna. For nine years he was a chorister there, and yielded his place as solo-boy to his younger brother Michael when the inevitable signs of change appeared in his voice. During these years he manifested an extraordinary passion for music, availing himself of every opportunity to improve his knowledge of the art. He was enabled to pursue his musical studies. At this time he came under the influence of Emanuel Bach, Dittersdorf, and Porpora, who may be said to have been his principal masters, although the credit of his remarkable achievements must be given rather to his own incessant industry than to any particular instruction. The year 1756 found Haydn so well informed in the various branches of his art that he began to be ranked among the first music-masters of Vienna. In 1759 he accepted the appointment of vice-capellmeister to Count Morzin, a Bohemian nobleman, who maintained an orchestra at his country-house. His contract with this prince brought him into the daily necessity of composing "divertimenti" for the orchestra, thus affording a splendid opportunity for the study of instrumentation. It was at this time that Haydn made the mistake of contracting a loveless marriage with Maria Anna Keller. Had he been more prudent in the choice of a spouse, perhaps his after life might have been free from the suspicions which his relations with other women justify. By temperament he was deeply religious, and gave back to Almighty God, in his compositions for the services of the Church, the talent with which he was so richly endowed.

In 1761 he became vice-capellmeister at Eisenstadt, and in 1766 went as capellmeister with Prince Nicholaus to his new palace at Esterház. His life during these years was of singular steadiness of purpose. The duties of his position were most arduous, involving the necessity of providing daily orchestral recitals, two operatic performances and at least each week one concert. He received a salary of one hundred pounds annually. In 1785 he joined the Freemasons to please his friend Mozart, who was an ardent member; and it is not clear how long he remained in that society. Upon the occasion of his two visits to London (1791 and 1794) he was hailed as the greatest musician of the day, and received marked attention from royalty. The University of Oxford conferred upon him the degree of Doctor of Music. His career in London was brilliant, and his successes signal. Salomon's orchestra was the vehicle he chose to introduce his compositions to the English public, and the twelve symphonies performed under his direction created a profound impression. He left London in 1795, and in January, 1797, moved to Gumpendorf, Vienna, where he died.

In other words, choir boy Haydn, self tutored more or less in music, was already "among the first music-masters of Vienna" in 1756 but then lost suddenly his initiative and locked himself in two obscure palaces giving private concertos and operas for the elite for some twenty years, to then join Freemasons convinced by his junior friend Mozart-to escape from his lackluster and oppresive wife propably- and then enjoyed a brilliant career in London and lived happily everafter.

The unfortunate researcher who insists of knowing more, is then inclined to look for Haydn's first noble employer, Count Morzin, to then fall, head on (or in) to a yet greater pile of the particular result of "scholarly strain":

Different authorities give a different interpretation to the phrase "Count Morzin" (the sole words by which early Haydn biographies identified the man); the phrase is ambiguous because the title of count was hereditary, so that there was a whole line of Counts Morzin. The prestigious New Grove (article by James Webster) asserts that the "Count Morzin" who played an important role in Haydn's life was Karl Joseph Franz Morzin (1717-1783)[1], whereas a biography by the leading Haydn scholar H. C. Robbins Landon asserts that it was Ferdinand Maximilan Franz Morzin (1693-1763)[2]. The difference apparently involves the question of whether Haydn was hired by the reigning count (Ferdinand Maximilian) or his son (Karl Joseph); see External Link below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Morzin.

As Wikipedia's links to both "count Morzins" advise, their "Page does not exist"!

No wonder count Robert refuses to touch the sacrosanct "subject" having misplaced his shovel (it's frozen solid, Robert, bring a wagondrill along next time)!

The mere fact the Prince Regent bowed on receiving "Joseph Haydn", early 1791, thus causing an uproar ....

during a royal court ball at St. James`s Palace Haydn was greeted by the Prince of Wales with a noticeable bow. http://www.worldcreation.info/index.php?page=biographie&part=5&lng=2

....proves my theory on Cocchi's position in Music, Freemasonry, the need of his aliases and the "cover up" that still continues today, Rome included...

...provided , that is, one examines history in papallel, including the few known facts on Freemasonry.

Needless to say Haydn's few biodata, his London presence and his Orpheo in particular, fully confirm as well he was another Cocchi alias, just like Gluck (whose one and only Orpheo was finally staged in Covent Garden, Feb 1792 to then depart as Haydn together with Salomon, June, for "Waldstein's-Belderbusch's" Bonn and then Vienna , as the story goes, to continue with Beethoven's tuition ) and Philidor (who was playing chess at the time in London as well).

...and, no, he did'nt burn Haymarket in 1789 and, if Gallini had something to do with the incident, he was acting on local orders "from above".

That's the truth about "Haydn" or "The Shakespeare of Music" as London press named him on his 1791 New Year arrival.

It was a great party, Robert, sorry you missed it!

:hurray:

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I don't think I missed the party at all ! In fact, I've arrived with a bottle of wine and some dance music. Having examined this subject in some detail. Only this year.

There is not one but THREE operas which are associated with Josef Haydn's visits to London. None of which were performed. And the details of which I think you should be aware of.

I will shortly post details of correspondence I made this year with the Royal College of Music in London on this very subject. Since they hold most of the score of one of them, 'Armida' - an opera Haydn brought to London but which, also, was not performed here. Its story is amazing and of obvious relevance to our conversation.

You may be sure Josef Haydn did not compose any of these three operas. And none were performed in London. Thus, this subject is more than that of 'Orfeo'. It is a story of wholesale fraud. (As is that of the invented career of W.A. Mozart).

In the meantime, some dance music, of a more extraordinary kind, compliments of a certain Leipzig Kapellmeister.

Sinfonia
BWV 1045

'Nothing is impossible in music - and, do you, do you believe that ?' J.S.B.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S601Pn51vw&feature=related

Cheers !

Robert

[yanni]

All in proper time, confessions included, otherwise it doesn't count, count!

Haydn certainly composed both Armide and Orpheo (as Durazzo, Gluck etc) but he possibly could not find enough time for theatricals while in London since he was not there most of 1791-92 as my, now famous, timeline confirms.

He did stage his Orpheo though, didn't he?

With Weichsel and his sister Billington participatiing according to "A Biographical Dictionary of Actors, Volume 15, Tibbett to M. West" by Philip H. Highfill,Kalman A. Burnim,Edward A. Langhans

and the following data as well:

28 February 1792 Covent Garden
Orpheus and Eurydice.
By Francis Gentleman (librettist) and Christoph Gluck (composer).
Opera.Printed for T. Cadell (1792).
[LS V.ii.1431. Adalbert Gyrowetz composed the overture; additional music composed by William Reeve. Other songs drawn from numerous composers. This opera, which was first performed at the Smock Alley Theatre, Dublin (3 January 1784), was shortened for afterpiece performance as of 13 March 1792.]

(The composer's name possibly escaped the censor's attention. Anyway Haydn was still in London-propably-bohemian Gyrowetz one of his students and Francis Gentleman had passed away in 1784.)

BTW my version is "Everything is possible with music" (post #6 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=588533, late 2008) and I just don't know (I do now) how or when it was planted in my memory.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but, Robert!

[Musicology]

No, Yanni, you are wrong.

You wrote, 'Haydn certainly composed both 'Armide' and 'Orpheo' (as Durazzo, Gluck etc').

Having examined this subject in some detail I completely disagree with you. But tell us why you believe Josef Haydn composed these two operas ? When, in fact, he never did. Your evidence will certainly be interesting. Do you have any ? Apart from this being your assumption, that is ?



All in proper time, confessions included, otherwise it doesn't count, count!

Haydn certainly composed both Armide and Orpheo (as Durazzo, Gluck etc) but he possibly could not find enough time for theatricals while in London since he was not there most of 1791-92 as my, now famous, timeline confirms.

He did stage his Orpheo though, didn't he?

With Weichsel and his sister Billington participatiing according to "A Biographical Dictionary of Actors, Volume 15, Tibbett to M. West" by Philip H. Highfill,Kalman A. Burnim,Edward A. Langhans

and the following data as well:

28 February 1792 Covent Garden
Orpheus and Eurydice.
By Francis Gentleman (librettist) and Christoph Gluck (composer).
Opera.Printed for T. Cadell (1792).
[LS V.ii.1431. Adalbert Gyrowetz composed the overture; additional music composed by William Reeve. Other songs drawn from numerous composers. This opera, which was first performed at the Smock Alley Theatre, Dublin (3 January 1784), was shortened for afterpiece performance as of 13 March 1792.]

(The composer's name possibly escaped the censor's attention. Anyway Haydn was still in London-propably-bohemian Gyrowetz one of his students and Francis Gentleman had passed away in 1784.)

BTW my version is "Everything is possible with music" (post #6 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=588533, late 2008) and I just don't know (I do now) how or when it was planted in my memory.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but, Robert!

[yanni]

No assumption at all, my dear count, just historical research (in the above mentioned "hard to crack scholarly pile", remember?).

Because Haydn was the same as Gluck and Durazzo, I already said that (and the fact that Francis Gentleman was dead in 1792 -but alive in 1784, ie was Gluck's associate-reconfirms it) didn't I?

Please support your disagreement with facts -even musicological studies/interpretations if that's all you have- this time!

Because music similarities between Koch, Gluck etc and Haydn/Beethoven/Mozart abound, some already quoted above!

Unless your disagreement focuses on the particular Orpheo pastichio perfomance only, "by several composers including Reeves", nevertheless still under "composer Gluck" as per title.

[Musicology]

Oh, my goodness !! So Josef Haydn is the same person as Gluck. And Josef Haydn is also Gluck, and Count Durazzo too. These are all the same person ? But all of them are, in reality, G. Cocchi ?

Is this what you are saying ?




No assumption at all, my dear count, just research.

Because Haydn was the same as Gluck and Durazzo, I already said that (and the fact that Francis Gentleman was dead in 1792 -but alive in 1784, ie was Gluck's associate-confirms it) didn't I?

Please explain your disagreement with facts this time!

[yanni]

Limit your losses as best as you can, Robert, but do provide our readers with your explanation of Prince of Wales Saint James reception and bow to commoner "Haydn" first!

A quote from the 1791 Royal Protocol would suffice.

...and do not forget to advise on results of your promised Grove look-up re Saint Germain owner of Ferney...
...and then the evidence to support your previous reassuring statement on your subject "Haydn": You may be sure Josef Haydn did not compose any of these three operas....
...and then attempt disputing through facts any single "Koch" alias you chose ...
...and provide specific on "Vogler's" 1771-1774 whereabouts(in particular)...
...and do pinpoint any stylistic differences between "Haydn" and his "Koch" patron...
...and "Koch's" views on Mozart's "Haydn quartets"

etc etc

Yes, that was my conclusion in "Hid'n Haydn", three posts back, to which you then replied differently, propably asleep.

You may now go ahead and finally make a true musicology breakthrough provided you proceed as follows:

Place all my "Cocchi aliases" including Haydn in a music history timeline,for years 1791-1794 in particular*, interpet what you see and announce it.

Enjoy!


*If you don't already have your own timeline just ask me for one!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You are obviously determined to prove (to your own satisfaction, at least) that G. Cocchi was author of the works of almost unlimited numbers of people, although your 'timeline' is entirely your own, has not been presented here and is unlikely to be, and nor can you begin to tell us how one man could possibly have achieved all you claim of Cocchi, without a vast network existing of which he was but a part. But of the aims and purposes of such a network or of one giant Cocchi you have no real suggestion, nor have you ever spent time to examine the nature of the network in which he operated or it's major and obvious weaknesses. They consist of dozens, even hundreds of weaknesses which would be, frankly, laughed at. But your notes do make sense if you see Cocchi as one element of a far larger picture. That of an entire network, of which Cocchi was one part. And is that not what I have repeatedly suggested from the start ?

You refer to Ferney. But here again Voltaire met Casanova at Ferney. Proof positive Cocchi is Voltaire and is also Casanova, no doubt ? One could waste one's entire life on such things. And I would not like you to waste your time in realising (as the evidence so plainly says) members of the Cocchi clan were only one group of people within a vast cultural network. Known more widely as the 'Enlightenment' but consisting of fraternal associates who invented (amongst other things) the careers of their own invented heroes.

I post here text of the exchanges recently made with the Music Library Director of the Royal College of Music here in London reference background to the 3 'Haydn' operas associated with his two visits to London in 1791/2. As earlier promised. Indicating (as already said) none of these 3 'Haydn' operas were his. I offer this as further proof that I am not dogmatic about anything. That I have (unlike others) being willing from the start to attribute to G. Cocchi the role of being an active musical member of a vast network, part of whose aim was to create the mythical reputations of Haydn and Mozart. Since no other interpretation makes sense and none is consistent with the evidence I have found. Anyway here, in several posts, are the text of those exchanges with Dr. Horton of the Royal College of Music in London, reference Haydn and 'his' operas associated with London, none of which were performed there. So you see I've examined that matter in some detail. As said earlier. And have numerous other notes on just that one subject of 'Haydn operas'. These posts may convince you this affair is not exclusively Cocchi, but involved various other composers. If it convinces you of that I will be glad to know of it -

(I will continue on a second post). Anyway, here goes -

Dear Dr Horton,

10th January 2010

JOSEF HAYDN AUTOGRAPH SCORE OF THE OPERA 'ARMIDA' (1783/4) AT THE LIBRARY OF THE ROYAL COLLEGE OF MUSIC, LONDON

Thank you for help over a number of years on various enquiries related to the musical assets of the RCM Library.

I understand from a number of sources the RCM Library possesses the autograph score of Josef Haydn's opera 'Armida' (1783/4) written at Esterhazy. If so, may I please ask a few questions of this particular operatic score ?

1. Am I correct in thinking this operatic score at RCM is complete ?

2. Does RCM library also hold performance parts of this opera from the late 18th or early 19th century ?

3. Is it known how this operatic score first came to be in the RCM Library ? Did it possibly come to London with Josef Haydn himself during one of his two visits made here in the 1790's - (at which time Haydn had hopes to write another opera but which, as it happened, remained unfinished) ? Any information on the arrival here in England of that score of 'Armida' and of how it frst arrived at the RCM would certainly be very useful.

and finally -

4. Does RCM Library hold any musical scores by composers such as Giuseppe Sarti (1729-1802) ?

Regards

Robert Newman

//

To which I received the following reply -(dated 11th January 2010)


Dear Mr Newman,

Thank you for your enquiry. We do indeed hold the autograph score of Haydn’s 'Armida', but it lacks 30 folios from Act 2 (the end of scene 6, scene 7 and part of scene 8). These are now in the Houghton Library of Harvard University – see Anthony van Hoboken, Joseph Haydn Thematisch-bibliographisches Werkverzeichnis (Mainz: B. Schott’s Söhne, 1971), vol. 2, p420-21, for details. We do not, however, possess performance parts and it was not in fact performed in London as a result of the retirement of J. Gallini, who had commissioned it for the King’s Theatre, before Haydn’s score had arrived. Unknown to those in London , the work had been composed for Esterhazy in 1784.


Joseph Salomon acted as agent for Haydn in England and, as Gallini refused to accept the score, took possession of it (and paid for it) himself. On Salomon’s death it was bequeathed to William Ayrton who subsequently sold it and it passed into the ownership of the Earl of Falmouth. After the latter’s death in 1852 it was sold (in 1853) as part of his library and acquired by the Sacred Harmonic Society, whose library was in turn presented to the RCM on its opening in 1883.

We have a number of manuscripts by Sarti, details of many of which can be found in the RCM online catalogue.

With best wishes,

Dr Peter Horton
Reference Librarian
Royal College of Music
Prince Consort Road
London SW7 2BS
UK

//

And I wrote again (11th January 2010) -

OPERATIC SCORE OF HAYDN'S 'ARMIDA' (1783)

Thank you so very much for the highly informative and speedy reply to my questions on 'Armida'.

I have to hand various works such as 'Concert Life in London from Haydn to Mozart' by S. McVeigh and 'Amico - The Life of Giovanni Battista Viotti' by W. Lister (with various other publications related to the history of the London opera scene of that time) and am so very grateful you have filled in a number of glaring gaps in my knowledge on this subject of 'Armida'. Frankly, I was completely unaware 'Armida' was originally intended to be performed in London under an arrangement made betweeen Gallini and Josef Haydn ! Does any documentary evidence exist of a 'deal' made for Haydn's 'Armida' to be staged in London ? And, if its cancellation was due to Gallini's retirement under what circumstances was 'L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo ed Euridice' planned for London performance during Haydn's tours here ? Is it your view this opera was begun by Haydn only after the plan to stage 'Armida' had already collapsed ?

Please forgive me writing again at length but the content of your letter is of such great interest to me. Secondly, since the score of 'Armida' came to London with Haydn/Salomon on tour here was it cancelled before their arrival ? Or have I misunderstood you ? I have no knowledge of when or what agreement was made between Gallini and Salomon/J. Haydn on this work. The reason is that 'L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo ed Euridice' was itself planned for London performance during Haydn's tours though it too was not staged as you know. But was this last opera begun by Haydn after plans to stage 'Armida' had collapsed ? I am obviously missing some documentation of which I was not aware.

And finally, I note 30 folios are missing in London from the score of 'Armida' which are today at Harvard. Which brings me to my last point and question on this opera.

You will already be aware of the curious fact that -

A facsimile of an autograph page of 11 bars by Mozart of what H.C. Robbins Landon called, "corrections to the score'' of the closing duet in Act I of Armida". (K506a Nr.4). This autograph page is today held at the MS Department of the University of Bonn. These are not 'corrections' but alterations in 3 coloratura passages in that duet. In 1982 G. Federer pointed out this 'Mozart' version had even been entered into a copy of this work today held at Einstadt (Landes Museum). This (supposedly) originating from a copy made by a later Vienna copyist. Alan Tyson noted this Mozart autograph page (11 bars long) is written on paper definitely made after 1784.

Furthermore, an account by one of Haydn's very earliest biographers, Framery, states that G. Sarti had attended a performance of Armida in Eszterhaza, and was fascinated by this work. ( 'Armida' was as you know to some extent influenced by Sarti's earlier 'Giulio Sabino' (premiered in Venice) which was itself later performed at Esterhaza).

So my last (third) question is -

Are there any plans for the missing 30 folios of this score to be returned to RCM Library ?

Thank you for any further assistance in these queries.


//

Continued on another post.

//

[Musicology]

Note, the following letter is an example of how commonly, how often, 'Mozart experts' ignore musical scores which are not convenient for their version of 'musical history'. As we see acknowledged by Dr Horton. We find the same with respect to various 'Haydn' and 'Mozart' symphonies/masses held today at the Estense Library of Modena, Italy. Where the same Robbins Landon suffered again from amnesia, in forgetting watermarks clearly show the origins of those scores (falsely attributed as they are to those two 'giants')were made far before the 'early 19th century' as Robbins Landon claimed in his publications'.

//

Dear Mr Newman, (26th January 2010)

Many thanks for your e-mail. From what you say it sounds as though little is known about Armida and London , which no doubt explains why Robbins Landon makes no reference to it. I’ve put together what information I can find in the RCM Library in the attached document, but I’m not a Haydn expert and am afraid that I can’t answer your questions concerning the history of L’anima del filosofo, the King’s Theatre, &c. That said, the detective work has been interesting. Given that Haydn only wrote L’anima del filosofo after his arrival in England , I wonder whether he might have brought Armida with him as a back-up? Only speculation, of course.

With regard to your last question concerning the missing 30 folios of 'Armida', I think it highly unlikely that Harvard would willingly part with them! What we must do, however, is try to acquire a copy for the RCM.

With all good wishes

//



Pete Horton

[Musicology]

Note to R. Newman from P Horton with the above message - 26th January 2010

Haydn: Armida (RCM MS 276)

There are three principal sources of information on the MS of Armida at the RCM: a) the entry in the catalogue of the library of the Sacred Harmonic Society, b) a short cutting (? from the 1853 sale catalogue) and c) the entry in the RCM catalogue of Manuscripts. I suspect that any further documentation that might have shed light on the commissioning of the opera for London is no longer extant.

‘This opera was sent to England by Haydn, in fulfilment of an engagement entered into by him when in this country, to furnish an opera for the King’s Theatre. During the interval between the making of the engagement and the sending the opera, an alteration had taken place in the management of the theatre; and on arrival of the work, the new manage refused to receive it, and it was consequently never brought out.’

‘This work was composed for the King’s Theatre in 1793, by contract with Sir John Gallini, then proprietor and manager, who having sold the house and retired from its direction before the Manuscript was delivered, refused to receive it. The negotiator in the business was the celebrated violinist, Mr. Salomon, who advanced the stipulated sum – Three Hundred Guineas – to the composer, and never was indemnified by either party, the score remaining in his hands as a security, till his decease, when, by his will, it passed into the possession of a friend.

The opera now offered for sale has never been produced in England, or elsewhere, it is presumed; and there can be little doubt that the copyright is with the present vendor. The fine, original Score, thus for the first time brought under public view, is in the handwriting of the composer, verified by his signature at the commencement of the first act, and further distinguished by the motto, In Nomine Domini, which he prefixed to all his great works, and the pious Laus Deo with which he ended them.’

This has been annotated thus by William Ayrton in RCM MS 1163:
‘Haydn’s Armida Sold in the Sale of the Earl of Falmouth’s Colln. by Puttick and Simpson No. 191 Piccadilly, 26/5/53; Purchaser Mr. for the Library of the Sacred Harmonic Society.’

‘(The MS. Score was mine, bequeathed to me by Mr. Salomon; and this printed acct. of it is a copy of my history of the composition, as inscribed by me in the Volume. W. Ayrton.)’ [Ayrton’s note is no longer to be found in the MS]

Entry in the RCM Catalogue of MSS
MS 276. (S.H. 1855) Ff. 209; 1783. Obl. Fol. Autograph. Armida, Opera in three Acts. (Commissioned by J. Gallini for the King’s Theatre in 1783, but Gallini had retired when Haydn sent the score. Salomon paid Haydn 300 gs. for it and left it (by Will) to [William Ayrton; Salomon died 25 November 1815.] It was sold in Lord Falmouth’s Sale in May, 1853. (Athenaeum, 1853, p. 658). Full Score.
The early pagination shows that 30 fol. are missing from Act II (the end of Scene VI, all Scene VII and part of Scene VIII).

[B][Despite what this says about Armida being commissioned for London in 1783, this isn’t true. The work was composed for Esterházy, where it received 54 performances – see Phänomen Haydn 1732-1809 ([Esterházy]: Schloss Esterházy Management, 2009), p.80].

Further information can be gleaned from the Kritischer Bericht to the work in Joseph Haydn Werke, Reihe XXV, Bd. 12 (München: Henle, 2003). According to this, Ayrton divided the score between himself and his son in law, Thomas Alsager (1779-1846); as the missing folios were sold as part of Ayrton’s Library in 1858 (see below), it must have been the main portion that passed to the latter. Alsager’s collection was also sold after his death and it is interesting to discover that his “Gallery of Musical Portraits” later appeared in the Earl of Falmouth’s sale, together with Armida. Presumably he bought both at the same time.

A brief resumé of the 1853 sale (26-28 May) is given by James Coover in Music at Auction: Puttick and Simpson (of London) … (see footnote 1), which indicates that the missing folios were already separate and were sold, as part of Ayrton’s Library, on 3 July 1858 (Lot 156). The purchaser was Charles Sumner who later presented them to Harvard University.

See James Coover in 'Music at Auction': Puttick and Simpson (of London), 1794-1971, Being an Annotated, Chronological List of Sales of Musical Materials …([Detroit]: Harmonie Park Press, 1988), p.63.

//

[Musicology]

Further connection between Salomon (previously of Bonn) and the works of 'Hadyn' presented in London or said to be by Haydn and brought to London -

Manuscript version of 'Haydn's' London symphonies certainly exists in Salomon's handwriting. It was written in London on English paper watermarked by a crown over fleur-de-lys shield and 'GR 1794'. The date of these 'arrangements' is remarkably early because, officially, Salomon did not have a commercial contract with Joseph Hadyn in London for these works until 1795. These versions seem to have been made very fast. It is very possible these works came to London and Salomon, in 1794 copied them in his own handwriting to publish them as 'his' arrangements'. Paris known to have been involved in arriving at final forms of these works. But these versions (in the Salomon manuscript) show they were performed in London. They were later published in this form as ‘XII GRAND SYMPHONIES by Haydn, arranged as Quintets by JP Salomon'. The Salomon manuscript is definitely written on paper with a watermark from 1794. The watermark has a crown over a fleur-de-lys in a shield. They include symphonies 97, 93, 94, 98, 95, 104, 103, 102, 99, 101, and 100 and seem to have been published in 2 volumes.

These scores are for Flute, Viol (1mo). Viol, 2 do. Viola and Cello (replacing 'Basso' which has been erased at the start of Symphony 97). There is no indication of an independent double bass line in these arrangemens. Salomon's score contains no written out keyboard part also. The bass line is figured only rarely.

//

Note - (R. Newman)

Thus, beyond reasonable doubt, the procurement of 'Haydn' works for this two tours of London involved Salomon, as did the fact of Haydn's close association with Bonn both before and after his visits to England. Further confirmed by known association of 'Haydn' symphonies with the career of Viotti when he was for years in Paris associated with the French court, and with the known visit to Esterhazy of composer G. Sarti. Whose own earlier operas were musical influential and strikingly found in Hadyn's 'Armida' of that year 1783/4.

A network, in fact, of which Salomon was a major, crucial part. Since it was Salomon who arranged the two Haydn visits to London. Featuring works attributed to Joseph Haydn but actually involving Sarti, Luchesi at Bonn (teacher of the young Beethoven), and various other composers such as Gyrowetz. Also involving Esterhazy, Bonn and Paris. And not exclusively G. Cocchi. Indeed, that 'Haydn's' works anticipate Beethoven's style is plainly heard by numerous examples of 'his' late symphonies etc.

[Musicology]

And finally, from Vol. 3 of Thomas Busby, ‘Anecdotes of Music and Musicians’ Vol 3 p. 93 (1828) - details of the almost unknown musical status of Josef Haydn at the time of his arrival in England in the early 1790‘s. (And ignored ever since by the music industry. Wonder why ?) -

‘Haydn’s genius made him the composer of reward of his great talents. One of his earliest bargains, for the copyright of his compositions, was made with Forster, the cello maker. On that occasion an agreement was entered in to by Count van Swieten, on the part of Haydn, with John Ashley, the Elder, on the part of Forster along the following terms -

‘Joseph Haydn of Vienna is about to sell certain musical compositions to William Forster of London. As the said Josef Haydn is a composer of NO CELEBRITY in music he agrees to furnish the said William Forster with sonatas, quartets and symphonies at half the usual price that is usually demanded of composers who are well known’.

//

So much for the ‘great and celebrated Josef Haydn’ !! And this deal made 1791/2, since Haydn is then in Vienna - late in his career. In fact, hardly able to hold a pen in his hand according to various sources. Due to an illness.

But then, what's new in the fantasy world of Josef Haydn and W.A. Mozart ? Only the landscape where, before, stood two idols blocking the sunlight.

[yanni]

You keep on repeating the same false interpretations of my writings even if they have been all strongly denied by me in this here thread and your "Mozart Manufactured". As such I can only question both your reasoning and your reasons but have no interest to readdress them.

The issue of our last posts has been Cocchi's alias "Joseph Haydn" and this last of yours simply does not address the very specific issues raised by me with regard to his 1791-1792 London visit.

My sympathies.



Yanni,

You are obviously determined to prove (to your own satisfaction, at least) that G. Cocchi was author of the works of almost unlimited numbers of people, although your 'timeline' is entirely your own, has not been presented here and is unlikely to be, and nor can you begin to tell us how one man could possibly have achieved all you claim of Cocchi, without a vast network existing of which he was but a part. But of the aims and purposes of such a network or of one giant Cocchi you have no real suggestion, nor have you ever spent time to examine the nature of the network in which he operated or it's major and obvious weaknesses. They consist of dozens, even hundreds of weaknesses which would be, frankly, laughed at. But your notes do make sense if you see Cocchi as one element of a far larger picture. That of an entire network, of which Cocchi was one part. And is that not what I have repeatedly suggested from the start ?

You refer to Ferney. But here again Voltaire met Casanova at Ferney. Proof positive Cocchi is Voltaire and is also Casanova, no doubt ? One could waste one's entire life on such things. And I would not like you to waste your time in realising (as the evidence so plainly says) members of the Cocchi clan were only one group of people within a vast cultural network. Known more widely as the 'Enlightenment' but consisting of fraternal associates who invented (amongst other things) the careers of their own invented heroes.

I post here text of the exchanges recently made with the Music Library Director of the Royal College of Music here in London reference background to the 3 'Haydn' operas associated with his two visits to London in 1791/2. As earlier promised. Indicating (as already said) none of these 3 'Haydn' operas were his. I offer this as further proof that I am not dogmatic about anything. That I have (unlike others) being willing from the start to attribute to G. Cocchi the role of being an active musical member of a vast network, part of whose aim was to create the mythical reputations of Haydn and Mozart. Since no other interpretation makes sense and none is consistent with the evidence I have found. Anyway here, in several posts, are the text of those exchanges with Dr. Horton of the Royal College of Music in London, reference Haydn and 'his' operas associated with London, none of which were performed there. So you see I've examined that matter in some detail. As said earlier. And have numerous other notes on just that one subject of 'Haydn operas'. These posts may convince you this affair is not exclusively Cocchi, but involved various other composers. If it convinces you of that I will be glad to know of it -

(I will continue on a second post). Anyway, here goes -

Dear Dr Horton,

10th January 2010

JOSEF HAYDN AUTOGRAPH SCORE OF THE OPERA 'ARMIDA' (1783/4) AT THE LIBRARY OF THE ROYAL COLLEGE OF MUSIC, LONDON

Thank you for help over a number of years on various enquiries related to the musical assets of the RCM Library.

I understand from a number of sources the RCM Library possesses the autograph score of Josef Haydn's opera 'Armida' (1783/4) written at Esterhazy. If so, may I please ask a few questions of this particular operatic score ?

1. Am I correct in thinking this operatic score at RCM is complete ?

2. Does RCM library also hold performance parts of this opera from the late 18th or early 19th century ?

3. Is it known how this operatic score first came to be in the RCM Library ? Did it possibly come to London with Josef Haydn himself during one of his two visits made here in the 1790's - (at which time Haydn had hopes to write another opera but which, as it happened, remained unfinished) ? Any information on the arrival here in England of that score of 'Armida' and of how it frst arrived at the RCM would certainly be very useful.

and finally -

4. Does RCM Library hold any musical scores by composers such as Giuseppe Sarti (1729-1802) ?

Regards

Robert Newman

//

To which I received the following reply -(dated 11th January 2010)


Dear Mr Newman,

Thank you for your enquiry. We do indeed hold the autograph score of Haydn’s 'Armida', but it lacks 30 folios from Act 2 (the end of scene 6, scene 7 and part of scene 8). These are now in the Houghton Library of Harvard University – see Anthony van Hoboken, Joseph Haydn Thematisch-bibliographisches Werkverzeichnis (Mainz: B. Schott’s Söhne, 1971), vol. 2, p420-21, for details. We do not, however, possess performance parts and it was not in fact performed in London as a result of the retirement of J. Gallini, who had commissioned it for the King’s Theatre, before Haydn’s score had arrived. Unknown to those in London , the work had been composed for Esterhazy in 1784.


Joseph Salomon acted as agent for Haydn in England and, as Gallini refused to accept the score, took possession of it (and paid for it) himself. On Salomon’s death it was bequeathed to William Ayrton who subsequently sold it and it passed into the ownership of the Earl of Falmouth. After the latter’s death in 1852 it was sold (in 1853) as part of his library and acquired by the Sacred Harmonic Society, whose library was in turn presented to the RCM on its opening in 1883.

We have a number of manuscripts by Sarti, details of many of which can be found in the RCM online catalogue.

With best wishes,

Dr Peter Horton
Reference Librarian
Royal College of Music
Prince Consort Road
London SW7 2BS
UK

//

And I wrote again (11th January 2010) -

OPERATIC SCORE OF HAYDN'S 'ARMIDA' (1783)

Thank you so very much for the highly informative and speedy reply to my questions on 'Armida'.

I have to hand various works such as 'Concert Life in London from Haydn to Mozart' by S. McVeigh and 'Amico - The Life of Giovanni Battista Viotti' by W. Lister (with various other publications related to the history of the London opera scene of that time) and am so very grateful you have filled in a number of glaring gaps in my knowledge on this subject of 'Armida'. Frankly, I was completely unaware 'Armida' was originally intended to be performed in London under an arrangement made betweeen Gallini and Josef Haydn ! Does any documentary evidence exist of a 'deal' made for Haydn's 'Armida' to be staged in London ? And, if its cancellation was due to Gallini's retirement under what circumstances was 'L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo ed Euridice' planned for London performance during Haydn's tours here ? Is it your view this opera was begun by Haydn only after the plan to stage 'Armida' had already collapsed ?

Please forgive me writing again at length but the content of your letter is of such great interest to me. Secondly, since the score of 'Armida' came to London with Haydn/Salomon on tour here was it cancelled before their arrival ? Or have I misunderstood you ? I have no knowledge of when or what agreement was made between Gallini and Salomon/J. Haydn on this work. The reason is that 'L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo ed Euridice' was itself planned for London performance during Haydn's tours though it too was not staged as you know. But was this last opera begun by Haydn after plans to stage 'Armida' had collapsed ? I am obviously missing some documentation of which I was not aware.

And finally, I note 30 folios are missing in London from the score of 'Armida' which are today at Harvard. Which brings me to my last point and question on this opera.

You will already be aware of the curious fact that -

A facsimile of an autograph page of 11 bars by Mozart of what H.C. Robbins Landon called, "corrections to the score'' of the closing duet in Act I of Armida". (K506a Nr.4). This autograph page is today held at the MS Department of the University of Bonn. These are not 'corrections' but alterations in 3 coloratura passages in that duet. In 1982 G. Federer pointed out this 'Mozart' version had even been entered into a copy of this work today held at Einstadt (Landes Museum). This (supposedly) originating from a copy made by a later Vienna copyist. Alan Tyson noted this Mozart autograph page (11 bars long) is written on paper definitely made after 1784.

Furthermore, an account by one of Haydn's very earliest biographers, Framery, states that G. Sarti had attended a performance of Armida in Eszterhaza, and was fascinated by this work. ( 'Armida' was as you know to some extent influenced by Sarti's earlier 'Giulio Sabino' (premiered in Venice) which was itself later performed at Esterhaza).

So my last (third) question is -

Are there any plans for the missing 30 folios of this score to be returned to RCM Library ?

Thank you for any further assistance in these queries.


//

Continued on another post.

//

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Have you obtained any evidence of G. Cocchi being involved with the careers of Baron van Swieten (patron of both Haydn and Mozart), or of being involved with Salomon (formerly of Bonn Hofkapelle) - since both (as you see) made the arrangements for Haydn to come to London in the first place. Thus, if your Cocchi fits within that documented scenario we can examine Cocchi's role in it. But not otherwise.

Perhaps you have some information on this ? If not I will continue to say that Luchesi, Kapellmeister of Bonn, was the true composer of numerous later 'Haydn' symphonies, just as the Italian composer Sammartini was the supplier to the same Haydn of many of 'his' earlier ones. Assisted later by composers such as Gyrowetz and G. Sarti who were involved in the supply to the same Haydn of various of 'his' operas, again with the assistance of Andrea Luchesi, Kapellmeister at Bonn. Since that is overwhelmingly indicated by the totality of the actual musical and biographical evidence.

And, with the best will in the world, wishing G. Cocchi to be author of all of this music (together with the works of his vast number of other 'aliases') becomes less and less probable.

I again repeat G. Cocchi was a part of a vast musical network. And an important though still undefined part. But by no means its nucleus as you seem determined to believe. I have hardly scratched the surface of the proofs which suggest this process involved many fraternal composers, patrons, managers and publishers. Thinking you would accept it.

Here, once again, in a operatic aria by G. Sarti. Does it not sound like Haydn/Mozart, to you ? And is Sarti also another name for G. Cocchi ?

http://www.mediafire.com/?zqul5to4gtk

It was never my wish to change your mind. But to share, and to understand each other's viewpoint. I think I've done this.

But best wishes anyway


Regards

[yanni]

Engaging the same old slander on Cocchi "author of all music" shows how desperate you are, Robert.

I never wrote so, in fact I have repeatedly denied it, explaining otherwise and in detail, so, unless you can support your re claim quoting specific posts of mine, kindly proceed to a next thread at your earliest and never mind about the Regent bowing to Haydn, patronised by van Swieten perhaps.

[Musicology]

I don't think I'm 'slandering' Cocchi. But I am trying to understand what you believe of him, in terms of music.

For your information, Yanni, the careers of Mozart and Haydn were both supported by fraternities. Many of them part of the Illuminatist movement which controlled most of German language publishing. As said so often here on this thread. And which included Baron van Swieten himself. Also the Bonn music publisher Simrock (himself a member at Bonn), plus Ch.G. Neefe, plus numerous others associated with the Bonn musical scene. It also included Waldstein, patron of the young Beethoven. And van Swieten (as any reader of musical history knows) was a vitally important patron to W.A. Mozart during all of his Vienna career. Another was Salomon, the impresario/manager to Haydn during his visits to England. And so, you see, Yanni, there is lots of evidence if G. Cocchi was associated in a major way, musically, with Haydn and Mozart's careers he too was part of this same network of patrons, publishers, composers who oversaw the manufacturing of their careers. This is surely easy for you to understand, isn't it ?

The fact that the Regent bowed to Josef Haydn is no more mysterious than the case of the Emperor Joseph 2nd, who allowed ordinary men of no rank whatsover to see him, daily, on virtually any issue. We have an account of the King of England waving to the Mozart family in London as he drove past them in a park. Does that mean anything ?

Cocchi was part of the same network as Voltaire, Rousseau, Grimm, Gluck, Casanova, and literally hundreds of others including the Encyclopaedists in Paris and so many others it was, beyond reasonable doubt, an entire network, which, culturally, included the musical careers of both Josef Haydn and W.A. Mozart.

Far from being 'desperate' I am very relaxed. 'Haydn's' opera 'Armida' is based on a still earlier opera of G. Sarti. So says the evidence, at least. An opera of Sarti which had been premiered in Venice only a year or two earlier and which, in 1783, this very same Sarti brought personally to J. Haydn at Esterhazy. When it became a 'Haydn' opera. The same Haydn stopped 'composing' operas according to his own correspondence in 1786.

Do you believe the composer G. Sarti was also Cocchi ?

You see, I am trying very hard to see what you actually believe. Since, according to you Haydn's career was possible with the assistance of G. Cocchi although the shortage of facts to support this are missing. So far.

Regards



Engaging the same old slander on Cocchi "author of all music" shows how desperate you are, Robert.

I never wrote so, in fact I have repeatedly denied it, explaining otherwise and in detail, so, unless you can support your re claim quoting specific posts of mine, kindly proceed to a next thread at your earliest and never mind about the Regent bowing to Haydn, patronised by van Swieten perhaps.

[Musicology]

Giuseppe Sarti (1729-1802)
Orchestral Interlude
From Act 2
Opera ‘Enea nel Lazio’ (Premiered St Petersburg, Russia, 1799)

Sarti’s graceful and simple lines are the main feature of his music. His operas become more and more simple in content. This comes from one of his last.

http://www.mediafire.com/?hy0hqzjvykz

(This is the same Sarti whose music features in the banquet scene of ‘Mozart’s’ ‘Don Giovanni’ (from his earlier opera 'Fra i due litiganti il terzo gode'). He played a much bigger role in the operatic career of Mozart than is generally supposed).

[yanni]

Where is the specific quote requested in my previous post?

Sarti's sole source is "Grove", who serve and maintain the "scholarly pile" just like you are.

Get lost in "it", slanderer.

Other readers of this thread may be interested to know that "Sarti" , just like "Haydn" and "Gluck" and countless others, was definitely another alias of Cocchi (primogenitor of the "pile" himself -thru his pennames as an author-philosophe-artist-art critic, his "covers" as France's chief secret agent and his Confessions or Memoirs as "Rousseau" and "Casanova" ).

Sarti's "limited" biography and travel data as well as 1791-1793 London performances (while the Regent's guest "Haydn" was there) such as Cocchi's Le Nozze di Dorina and "Gluck's" Iphigenia in Aulis (staged in London before "Haydn's" departure for Bonn in 1793, even though his Iphigenie in Tauris was previously banned by royal order in 1791. The King and the Regent had a minor disagreement at the time re the former's ability to rule and the latter's support by freemasons) are sufficient evidence to the fact and so is "Sarti's" influence on Mozart (Mozart himself "manufactured" -ie tutored-by Cocchi along with Beethoven and Goethe).

And 1791-1793 was definitely an important period for our global theater's history.

[Musicology]

This 'alias' of Cocchi, Giuseppe Sarti, wrote some of the finest, most eloquent stage music of the late 18th century. Close to 30 operas. And really, it's pointless arguing. You believe Cocchi, Gluck, Myslivececk, now Sarti, and many others were the same man. If you cannot give us your timeline you may, one day, give us a list of his aliases. I wish you every success with your ideas. Here is a small fragment of his music. He was a massively talented composer and one you should hear.

Giuseppe Sarti (1729-1802)
Orchestral Introduction to Act 2
Opera ‘Enea nel Lazio’ (Premiered in St Petersburg, Russia, 1799)

http://www.mediafire.com/?gmqwjtzddjj

Regards

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I'll finish here. An aria from the same opera -

Giuseppe Sarti
Aria
Act 2/14
Opera ‘Enea nel Lazio’

http://www.mediafire.com/?jwmufozzygy

Regards

[yanni]

My sympathies and apologies to all true students of music and/or history for their hours spent in vane attempting to solve 18th century puzzles by using available, well coordinated but poorly supported, relative groveling encyclopedic garbage, a true labyrinth today.

A rare source linking 18th cent music to corresponding historical developments is http://www.musicandhistory.com/pdf/1791-1800.pdf the authors of which would certainly benefit by including in their database many references to music included in my research on Gioachino Cocchi (such as for instance "van Swieten's" Paris presence and theatrical performances with Mme D'Epinay and her "circle", ie Cocchi- as "Rousseau", "Grimm", "Magnanville", "Dupin de Franceuil", "von Gleichen" etc -that are not included, and many others as well) and his aliases, keeping always in mind that not only did he lie about them and their whereabouts but is also taken as a "source" by his globalist followers.

Correcting this over two centuries old-and still continuing- fabrication is not the job of one person I am afraid, but calling things by their name is.

While Paris was in flames and "the people" decapitated the royal couple, "Haydn-Philidor" (physically present) and "Gluck-Sarti-Dussek"(their works) Cocchi was in London*, a guest of the Regent.

But who am I to judge him, his unique character, talent, intelligence and the use he made thereof? He changed the world indeed, for better or worst is anybody's guess: Nobody alive today was there when it all happened.....

.....and I was born with a bias against classical music!

*He crossed the channel, at least once, shortly before or after the storming of Bastille 14th July, 1790 to introduce Napoleon to his circle in Paris partying afterwards at Mme De Stael's. As "abbe Raynal"!

[ERS]

Yanni,

Would you provide (or direct me to a link of) a list of all known aliases of Cocchi? How many aliases did he have? I ask this in all sincerity.

[yanni]

Le comte de Saint Germain is said to have used some 1000 aliases but there has never been a re list online, his few acknowledged aliases of no significance.

When I find the energy to reread my research and make a list, I'll post it here.

Cheers.

[Musicology]

There may be a faster solution. Yanni can list the composers, diplomats and philosophers associated with Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven who were NOT G.Cocchi. :wink5: That list will surely be far smaller. Cocchi will then be credited with writing several thousand operas, symphonies, sonatas, books on philosophy and countless other acts of diplomacy. His statue would dwarf that of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven etc. on Easter Island and it would literally tower over the pagan landscape. The tourist industry would love the idea of discovering a giant new and till now undiscovered planet in the musical, diplomatic and philosophical firmament.

But that's precisely the problem we wish to avoid ! Unless we are inhabitants of Babylon, ancient Greece, Sumeria or Easter Island.

:leaving:

[Musicology]

Don't you think '1,000 aliases' is, well, a slight exaggeration ?


Le comte de Saint Germain is said to have used some 1000 aliases but there has never been a re list online, his few acknowledged aliases of no significance.

When I find the energy to reread my research and make a list, I'll post it here.

Cheers.

[yanni]

How many Niessens and Rossinis do you now count, count?

Re "Rossini the first": Please give my regards and esteem to your partner in manufacturing, "scholar" Trombetta, for his ancestor Giuseppe (husband of Mattei) who, as alleged comanager with his wife (acc to Burney)of the King's Theater,first brought Cocchi to London in 1757 (The Quarterly Musical Magazine and Review (5), by Richard MacKenzie Bacon, 1823).

According to Paul Brenac however, Cocchi himself was the manager of said Theater: ....part pour l'Angleterre en 1757 et dirige le King's Theatre jusqu'en 1762.

...and Giuseppe "husband of Mattei" was of "unknown background" and "Gluck's" Mme Mingotti (the v.d. transmitter perhaps of 1747?) was nearby at the time(Fashionable acts: opera and elite culture in London, 1780-1880 by Jennifer Hall-Witt*, 2007- Appendix C)

...and Columba Mattei, a mere opera singer, was lodging with the "London Bach"** for a while-ie "Baron Bagge" ie "Koch" (JC Bach's Creativity Pattern (Gardner-style))...

...as she did shortly before...

...Columba resided in Milan, 1754 with another "Giuseppe", Ferdinando Brivio, who....was reimbursed for lodging Leonardo Leo (1740), the choreographer François Sauveterre (1748) and the prima donnas A. Conti (1753) and Columba Mattei (1754) at his residence in Milan. No known documents, however, verify his death in 1758, and no evidence has been found to link unequivocally some of the instrumental music published at Paris and London (1730–63) under the name Brivio with Giuseppe Ferdinando.

...and guess whom Brivio's works leads to....

A small world, a big pile, surely...you guessed it (and you and cousin Trombetta both are over your heads in "it"!)

You have been great fun, Bobby, now run along, little Mozart is waiting and....caveat emptor.

:banana:



* " . . . scrupulously researched, sharply focused. . . [an] admirable piece of scholarship.”—Times Literary Supplement... and yet, following the trend, she as well buries "Koch" completely.

**J.C.Bach, Mozart's, Wendling's and Gallini's "Bach" who moves to London in 1762, stays there until death, his fragile health suddenly declining in 1781 ("JC Bach’s Creativity Pattern, Howard Gardner’s Approach to Creativity Analysis": Indeed that's when the "pile's" creation started and it's still analysed by professionals!:biggrinjester:)






Don't you think '1,000 aliases' is, well, a slight exaggeration ?

[Musicology]

So, a simple answer is again not given to the question. 'Do you think the 1,000 aliases is a slight exaggeration' ?

Yes or No, Yanni ?

[Musicology]

Yanni,

As for the rest of your last post reference Cocchi/Trombetta/Kings Theatre etc. I made a point of studying this subject long, long before our correspondence ever began. Your posts do the opposite of what you suppose. They lack any appreciation of the context of those times, or of the input of dozens, even hundreds of different people.

And since I know Cocchi was part of an organisation much bigger than himself I have the advantage of being able to show it, with powerful proofs we have never discussed and you have never been interested in.

Why not study the background to Maestro Gallini, manager of King's Theatre, for example, and numerous other stooges of the 'system' to which Cocchi undoubtedly belonged ? The threads of which all lead back to Venice, to the Jesuit counter-reformation, to the formation of the cultural 'counter-reformation', and the role within that huge movement of Cocchi and dozens of others. Seen in this context you will even come to appreciate lives other than G. Cocchi.

Thank you for your kind comments on me consulting standard works. But really, I am as critical of them as 'The Manufacture of Mozart' suggests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scT5a-q7ehU&feature=related

Regards

[yanni]

A "simple answer" depends on the total number of Cocchi's aliases you, Trombetta and the rest of the keepers have hidden in your "pile", doesn't it?

I have just pulled out another couple or two in previous and you didn't feel a thing, that's "how many"!.

:banana:



So, a simple answer is again not given to the question. 'Do you think the 1,000 aliases is a slight exaggeration' ?

Yes or No, Yanni ?

[yanni]

Why not thousands upon thousands, count Bob?

Its your (and Trombetta's) pile to keep afterall, you may do whatever you like with it, with permission from your masters ofcourse.

Just keep you nose above the surface and hold your mouth shut if you can.

...and bear in mind while counting that "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!" lists as #17 among 343000 google search results for "Beethoven+Koch"

Again my regards to you, my modest distant cousin Trombetta-Koch and poor Niessen-Mozart*!

*In memory of Heinrich Henkel(born 1822), pianist, owner of many Mozart manuscripts, first to claim that Mozart and Niessen shared -not just the same wife but-the same handwriting.

:wave:



Yanni,

As for the rest of your last post reference Cocchi/Trombetta/Kings Theatre etc. I made a point of studying this subject long, long before our correspondence ever began. Your posts do the opposite of what you suppose. They lack any appreciation of the context of those times, or of the input of dozens, even hundreds of different people.

And since I know Cocchi was part of an organisation much bigger than himself I have the advantage of being able to show it, with powerful proofs we have never discussed and you have never been interested in.

Why not study the background to Maestro Gallini, manager of King's Theatre, for example, and numerous other stooges of the 'system' to which Cocchi undoubtedly belonged ? The threads of which all lead back to Venice, to the Jesuit counter-reformation, to the formation of the cultural 'counter-reformation', and the role within that huge movement of Cocchi and dozens of others. Seen in this context you will even come to appreciate lives other than G. Cocchi.

Thank you for your kind comments on me consulting standard works. But really, I am as critical of them as 'The Manufacture of Mozart' suggests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scT5a-q7ehU&feature=related

Regards

[Musicology]

And how many references are there to Beethoven/Mozart ?
Or Haydn/Mozart ?

I think this subject of Beethoven/Cocchi needs to be completely re-examined by you. But maybe you are the person who can finally do it.

Yanni, you were not born with an aversion to music. It may have been acquired. Anyway regards.

J.S. Bach
Concerto BWV 1058/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUGxKzdTF4I&feature=related

[yanni]

Let be of my aversions and tell your italian "Koch" friend to blow her trumpet on Cocchi's family.

Antonio Cocchi was married twice and had children from both marrriages, details exist but are off limits.

Otherwise there is nothing more to say on Cocchi's relations to Beethoven, Mozart and Goethe*, there were two or three "Koch" diplomats-musicians at the time and unless we know more details on all we'll be only guessing (or I'll have to spend another couple of years -or days-with my timeline).

Regards.

*For Goethe's relations to "Haydn" and "Von Gleichen" a separate puzzle is really required. Suffices here to say that the two in quotes were "very closely" related, almost identical. Goethe met "them" in 1810, February, ie shortly after Haydn "died"-ceremoniously-in Vienna . Eversince 1777 Goethe met "Grimm" as well: Ich fühlt’s so inniglich daß ich dem Manne nichts zu sagen hatte, der von Petersburg nach Paris geht. But perhaps Grimm-Goethe is another puzzle....

[yanni]

Having practically solved the puzzle myself with regard to the specific Cocchi aliases (Waldstein, Oppersdorf , F.J.Haydn etc) who guided Beethoven to his “Rise to fame. 1792-1805”, Vienna, I’ll now reduce and redefine it to focus merely on Beethoven’s earlier Bonn music and theatre tuition years as follows:

Beethoven “authorities” believe that certain individuals (in bold below), among others, were essential in Beethoven’s “manufacture” ( to honour british finess) for the period 1783-1792:

…. Großmann selbst blieb in Frankfurt; seine Frau reiste am 12. Oktober(1783) nach Bonn und übernahm dort die Direktion. Wir werden später sehen, daß der Knabe Ludwig van Beethoven oft am Klavier in den Proben dieser Gesellschaft, möglicherweise auch bei den Aufführungen, verwendet wurde. Aus diesem Grunde mögen auch die Namen derer, unter welchen er sich in dieser Weise bewegte und tätig war, soweit es möglich ist, aus dem langen Verzeichnisse der Großmannschen Gesellschaft im Theaterkalender für 1784 ausgesondert und hier verzeichnet werden.

Trans: ….Grossman himself stayed in Frankfurt; his wife travelled on October 12th (1783) to Bonn and took over the direction there. We’ll examine later how youngster Beethoven was employed, often at the piano during the rehearsals of this theater company and also, eventually during performances as well. For this reason we desire to name those under which he acted and was busy as above, as much as possible, from the long archives of the Grossmann company extracted from the theater calender of 1784 and here (below) noted.

Grossman (theater company general manager)

Musikdirektor: C. G. Ne ese. (Chistoph Gottlieb Neefe)

Mad. Cassini, gemeine, zänkische und Bauernweiber.(actress)

Mad. J.M. Neefe, geb. Zink, Mütter im Trauer-, Luft- und Singspiel.(actress)

Cassini, Bühnendirector, Gerichtsdiener, Hülfsrollen (stage manager, assist actor)


Tentative puzzle solvers are asked to find which of the above, if any, is a “Koch” and, if so, his or her real life identity and, if possible, his or her relation to Babette Koch-Belderbusch.

Puzzle awards for non Koch participants same as before. Kochs will now receive half of the previous amount, ie EUR 250.

References to guide the inexperienced few:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histoire_de_l%27Oise)
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/media.php/75/kf_neefe_engl.pdf
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles...de_Belderbusch
http://www.zeno.org/Musik/M/Thayer,+Alexander+Wheelock/Ludwig+van+Beethovens+Leben/1.+Band/5.+Kapitel.+Max+Friedrichs+Nationaltheater
http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/beethovenrise.html

Validity: Seven days as from now.

Enjoy!:smilielol5:


Seasons greetings to all.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I have the answer - it's quite wonderful too - and who will say it is not ?

Adagio e piano siempre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRoKKrHJ4H0&feature=related

The problem and the resolution -

Larghetto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm0eDtHlLmY&feature=related

And -

Siciliano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flKa8DvLiEU&feature=related

//

[yanni]

Good company for musicologists in distress on their via dolorosa, heh-heh!

Best wishes to you Robert.

[Musicology]

And for those who are in no distress at all.

Best wishes to you Yanni.



Good company for musicologists in distress on their via dolorosa, heh-heh!

Best wishes to you Robert.

[yanni]

The Cassinis were hugenots and with ties to british academics long before the revolution, Robert.

"Johann Georg Hamann", Goethe's tutor in philosophy* and possibly the lute, was "lutheran pietist" according to Wikipedia. Imo he was a naturalist at heart, much like "Rousseau". Like him, he as well....

...is the man who infected his century with his spirit and completely changed it. That awakening of the inner man around 1760 which found its artistic expression in classic-romantic culture arose from Hamann . The enigmatic power which this rare man radiated forth into his entire age is among the insoluble secrets of the history of human thought and spirit.
(J.Nadler, † 14. Januar 1963 in Wien. Notice how he distinguishes -and thus separates-H's spirit from the physical man and his identity.)

"Philidor" played a lot of chess (all over, he even taught Frederic "Grosse" chess, at the time of "Koch" theater establishment in Dresden, while Voltaire, "Collini" and Cocceji and his(their) "Barberina" were there to.Neefe was very close to this Koch theater man from his childhood, he was thus propably a lutheran pietist as well.)

As for "Grossman", I have no idea what his faith was, really.

Now concentrate on the reduced puzzle please, or else I'll start with Mozart's&Beethoven's "Prince Lichnowsky" (Lychnos=oil lamp in grk as all occultists know."Lichnos" differs however) of 1789-1809.

* Do read: "Johann Georg Hamann's relational metacriticism" by Gwen Griffith Dickson. Excellent work. Surpisingly, another Henkel, possibly a naturalist-pietist, first published Hamann's correspondence.


And for those who are in no distress at all.

Best wishes to you Yanni.

[Musicology]

Grossmann was another 'stooge' of the occultist/Jacobin takeover of the musical culture of the 'Enlightenment'. Near the end of his life he was arrested in Germany for praising the brutal regime of the tyrant Robespierre in Paris. The same Grossmann who, from 1783, was manager of the touring theatre group that left employment with the Hofkapelle in Bonn and toured theatres with singers and actors all across Germany. Including the 1785 premiere (at Frankfurt) of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' which Mozart research seems to have forgotten about. (A year before Mozart is said to have composed it). LOL !

Here is the Frankfurt 'Figaro' Playbill of that year. (1785). With the name of the production manager, the same Herr Grossmann etc. But don't tell this to supporters of W.A. Mozart, will you ? LOL !!

http://www.mediafire.com/?mizhcymjyzj

[yanni]

Please provide references (such as a serious biography* for instance) that Grossmann was arrested in Germany for praising the brutal regime of the tyrant Robespierre in Paris.

...and also advise exact date of the Frankfurt April 85 premiere and if Grossmann himself was there(as he could well be acc to my timeline) or someone else directed his company as the playbill's photo does not load clearly on my screen to read.

For me the questionmark now is not on Grossmann anymore but Beaumarchais himself.

I'll then publish my 1785 relative timeline.

Thanks.

* As compared to: http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/ADB:Gro%C3%9Fmann,_Gustav_Friedrich_Wilhelm (by Joseph Kürschner. No "arrest" mentioned nevertheless). Other "sources" claim his first name was Helmut.



-

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The premiere (at Frankfurt) of ‘Figaro’ was on Monday 11th April 1785 with the Grossmann group (on tour at the time). Fully 1 year before the Vienna premiere of ‘Mozart’s’ opera ‘Le Nozze di Figaro’. (I have copies of the Frankfurt newspapers in the days leading up to that event which confirm Grossmann's arrival in that city).

Grove says -

He also translated Rousseau's Pygmalion and adapted Shakespeare plays. His volume of Singspiele nach ausländischen Mustern für die deutsche Bühne (Frankfurt, 1783) included works that enjoyed considerable popularity in their day; Adelheid von Veltheim, set by Joseph Grätz and later Neefe (who became musical director of the company in 1779) was very successful for a number of years, and Nicht mehr als sechs Schüsseln (Bonn, 1780) was an influential early example of domestic comedy. Was vermag ein Mädchen nicht?, a Singspiel set by Neefe in 1789, was also popular. He was on close terms with Lessing and Schiller (of whose Fiesko he gave the first performance), and enjoyed a friendly relationship with Goethe's mother. In 1788, the year after his company had given Mozart's Die Entführung at Hanover under B.A. Weber, he mounted one of the earliest productions of Le nozze di Figaro at Lübeck and Frankfurt. Don Giovanni was also in his company's repertory. F.X. Gerl was a member of the company in 1786, and the famous actor K.W.F. Unzelmann was one of the star attractions. Until the disastrous production in Hanover of his last play, Grossmann had enjoyed high regard wherever he performed, though some contemporaries mentioned his restless and sometimes difficult temperament.

//

Grossmann (1746-96) was an Illuminati member (as was Neefe, Simrock and others at Bonn) who was briefly arrested in Hanover during his last tour there. He died shortly afterwards.

//

Reading material includes -

C.H. Schmid: Chronologie des deutschen Theaters (Leipzig, 1775); ed. P. Legband (Berlin, 1902)
K. Goedeke and others: Grundriss zur Geschichte der deutschen Dichtung, iv/1 (Dresden, 2/1891), 254
J. Wolter: Gustav Friedrich Wilhelm Grossmann: ein Beitrag zur deutschen Litteratur- und Theatergeschichte des 18. Jahrhunderts (Cologne, 1901)
E. Pies: Prinzipale: zur Genealogie des deutschsprachigen Berufstheaters vom 17. bis 19. Jahrhundert (Ratingen, 1973), 145–7
T.A. Bauman: Music and Drama in Germany: a Traveling Company and its Repertory, 1767–1781 (diss., U. of California, Berkeley, 1977)
T. Bauman: North German Opera in the Age of Goethe (Cambridge UP, 1985)

//

And below is a picture of the Comediehaus theatre in Frankfurt am Main (demolished in 1902) -

//

Hanover was also the place where Baron Knigge (Illuminatist and stooge of the British Empire, as was his father before him) lived. And the German text of 'Figaro' (which we find on the alleged and bogus 'autograph' of that score) is attributed to Knigge himself (and/or his young daughter).

//

Regards

[Musicology]

Also, the 1901 publication -

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BuNdAAAAIAAJ&q=J.+Wolter:+Gustav+Friedrich+Wilhelm+Grossmann:+e in+Beitrag+zur+deutschen+Litteratur-+und+Theatergeschichte+des+18.+Jahrhunderts+(Colog ne,+1901)&dq=J.+Wolter:+Gustav+Friedrich+Wilhelm+Grossmann:+ ein+Beitrag+zur+deutschen+Litteratur-+und+Theatergeschichte+des+18.+Jahrhunderts+(Colog ne,+1901)&source=bl&ots=QA6AlOeBqV&sig=_RqwmcDQtKwHpprI0BzoAtnNFs8&hl=en&ei=1hm7S72lIIT40wTn_qn1Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA

And here is some Springtime for you Yanni - from another planet - Bach !! - and greetings from a sunny London !!!!!

Regards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic2S3TyC56c&feature=related

[yanni]

I am adding more data (on music, "Cassini" and "occultism") in my timeline, Robert, and will then smooth it out and present it here, covering 1783-1786, a very important period, trying in parallel to distinguish who is who between aliases and real people, a formidable task.

It will take a few more days.

Best regards.

[Musicology]

Hi there Yanni,

You are certainly right about the period 1783-6. It's massively important.

Oh, before I forget, a friend of mine has a Greek friend who arrived yesterday in London. I'm due to meet both of them tomorrow. This Greek man writes on aspects of European history also.

Regards



I am adding more data (on music, "Cassini" and "occultism") in my timeline, Robert, and will then smooth it out and present it here, covering 1783-1786, a very important period, trying in parallel to distinguish who is who between aliases and real people, a formidable task.

It will take a few more days.

Best regards.

[yanni]

The % number of history researchers to the overall population is proportional to the unemployment rate, not just in Greece.

The most important period concerning Modern Greece (created post 1821) dates back to the 1750's and has never been really "researched thru".

Regards.



Hi there Yanni,

You are certainly right about the period 1783-6. It's massively important.

Oh, before I forget, a friend of mine has a Greek friend who arrived yesterday in London. I'm due to meet both of them tomorrow. This Greek man writes on aspects of European history also.

Regards

[Musicology]

Yes, that is more or less what the Greek man says. The more history is studied, the better. And the period back to the 1750's may well be studied in some detail. This is all good news.



The % number of history researchers to the overall population is proportional to the unemployment rate, not just in Greece.

The most important period concerning Modern Greece (created post 1821) dates back to the 1750's and has never been really "researched thru".

Regards.

[yanni]

Copy from "Easter Bach" relevant to pre 1750's history of music:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JSBach's life and career were very much determined by Cocceji-Koch family.

Acc to Wikipedia Bach's health was in decline in 1749 and he died on 28 July 1750 at the age of 65.

Here is a short selection for you to put in your timeline (and add to http://musicandhistory.com who avoid pre 1752 musical events) and drasticaly alter, among others, your JSBach "perspective" :



1741-1750 TIMELINE

1741.15. 03. Der Wirkliche Geheime Etats- und Kriegsminister, Samuel Freiherr von Cocceji, trifft, aus Breslau und Glogau kommend, wieder in Berlin ein.

Gluck- Artaserse (Artaxerxès), livret de Métastase, joué à Milan le 26 décembre 1741

Russia. Elizabeth crowned herself Empress in the Dormition Cathedral on April 25, 1742.

Gluck-Demetrio (2.5.1742 Venezia SS) [Cleonice]

Already in 1742 in Florence (Italy) Antonio Cocchi presented to the Earl of Richecourt a report on the Hospital of Santa Maria Nuova.

In 1742, most of Silesia was seized by King Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession and subsequently made the Prussian Province of Silesia. King Frederick II of Prussia appointed Cocceji to lead the legal reorganization of annexed Silesia.The formal approval of Cocceji's proposals followed on March 26th, 1742. In this missive he was asked to prepare an instruction for the Vicar General and a patent notifying the Silesian officials of the change in Catholic conditions. Frederick trusted completely in Cocceji's ability, since he possessed " the necessary insight both into spiritual rights and into the tricks of the Papal clerics " and would thus be able to take whatever precautions were necessary.*

1742 bis 1745 studierte Grimm an der Universität Leipzig Jura, Literatur und Philosophie

1742–43. Voltaire is on a secret mission in Prussia rallying Frederick to the assistance of the French Army.

COCCHI, Antonio Celestino Del vitto pitagorico per uso della medicina Franc.Moücke Florence 1743

Gluck Demofoonte (6.1.1743 Milano RD)

May 1743 Rousseau begins the opera of the gallant Muses.

July. Rousseau leaves Paris for Venice as secretary of the French ambassador.

Gluck- Il Tigrane (26.9.1743 Crema)

Sept 1743. La Barberina is in Paris with Ludwig Cocceji(Als „Tänzerin Barberina“ hatte der Freiherr(Carl Ludwig Cocceji) sie im September 1743 in Paris kennengelernt und von dort auf Befehl des Königs nach Berlin.

Cocchi-Adelaide (carn.1743 Roma D)

Durazzo. Marchese (detto Conte) Giacomo Pier Francesco, Patrizio Genovese, ascritto al Libro d’Oro della Nobiltà il 13-XII-1743.

1744

Gluck.La Sofonisba (13?.1.1744 Milano RD) [Siface]

Barberina In 1744 she was hired by Frederick the Great of Prussia for an engagement in Berlin, but instead of honouring it she travelled with her lover, Lord Stuart Mackenzie, to Venice. The king then had her brought to Berlin by military guard wo sie am 8. Mai 1744 ihr Debüt an der Königliche Hofoper feierte, an das sich zahlreiche weitere Erfolge anreihten. Sie konnte in den Vertragsverhandlungen mit der Oper ihr jährliches Salär selbst bestimmen. Es betrug schließlich die für damalige Zeiten unglaubliche Summe von 7000 Reichsthaler im Jahr. Zurückzuführen könnte dies auf ein gemutmaßtes Verhältnis mit dem König selbst sein, das der Tänzerin neben zahlreicher anderen Liebschaften nachgesagt wurde. Die Karriere in Berlin endete schließlich 1749 abrupt, als sie einen Heiratsantrag auf offener Bühne annahm, den ihr Carl Ludwig von Cocceji,

Cocchi.L'Elisa (aut.1744 Napoli F)

Gluck. Ipermestra (21.11.1744 Venezia SGG)

Gluck. Poro (26.12.1744 Torino TR)

In 1745 Diderot became the editor of the Encyclopédie together with mathematician Jean Le Rond d'Alembert.

1745 —In January, Voltaire took up his abode in Versailles to superintend rehearsals, and in consideration of his labors at the fête, the king appointed him historiographer of France, on a yearly salary of 2,000 francs, and promised him the next vacant chair in the Academy. Voltaire considered this fair remuneration for a year of much toil in matters of the court. During these turbulent times, when a skilful pen was needed he was called upon. He was at this time in high favor with the king; Madame de Pompadour and many other influential persons also favored his aspirations. Voltaire dedicated “Mahomet” to the Pope, and sent a copy and a letter to him, out of which grew an interesting correspondence, the publication of which proclaimed his good standing with the head of the Church.

Gluck. Ippolito (31.1.1745 Milano RD) [Fedra]

Cocchi. L'Irene (spr.1745 Napoli F)

1745. Birth of Savalette de Lange

Referring to the year 1745, Rousseau said in his Confessions:I had also become intimate with the abbé de Condillac, who, like myself, cut no figure in the literary world, but who was born to be what he has become to-day.

Francis, Holy Roman Emperor,King of the Romans Reign 13 September 1745-18August 1765 Coronation 4 October 1745, Frankfurt
Gluck attended his coronation enroute from Milan to London together with Lobkowitz.

In 1745, at the invitation of Lord Middlesex, Gluck accompanied Prince Lobkowitz to England. On the way, they visited Paris where Gluck became acquainted with French opera and admired Rameau.

In London, where he had been asked to be house composer at the King’s Theatre Gluck gave two operas there and played two concerts on the musical glasses. He may also have met Handel, who is supposed to have said of the younger composer, “He knows no more of counterpoint than my cook.” Gluck’s London sojourn was short, as he was in Dresden by June 1747, composing operas for and possibly singing with a traveling opera troupe run by Pietro Mingotti

"The Pythagorean diet, of vegetables only, conducive to the preservation of health, and the cure of diseases" A discourse delivered at Florence, in the month of August, 1743, by Antonio Cocchi, ... Translated from the Italian.
Published 1745, printed for R. Dodsley; and sold by M. Cooper (London)

St Germain is released although previously accused for spying. Walpole says: He sings, plays on the violin wonderfully, composes, is mad, and not very sensible.
Walpole, Correspondence, Yale, v.26 (1954). Letter to Horace Mann, 9 Dec 1745, pp.20-21.

Gluck also performed operas in London during 1745-46, where he met Handel and the latter's music. Although Handel thought him to be a poor contrapuntist, they became friends. (After further travel-Dresden, Copenhagen, Naples, Prague-he settled in Vienna in 1752 as Konzertmeister of the Prince of Saxe-Hildburghausen's orchestra, then as Kapellmeister.

1746
Gluck- La Caduta de' Giganti représenté au Théâtre de Haymarket à Londres le 7 janvier 1746

Gluck- Artamene (4.3.1746 OS London H) Artamene, opéra en 3 actes, livret de l'abbé Vanneschi, représenté au Théâtre de Haymarket à Londres le 4 mars 1746

March 28, 1746. One only, first and last (including adjacent years) reference to “german” Gluck (music playing with water filled glasses) (http://ichriss.ccarh.org/HRD/1746.htm)

Voltaire He was elected to the Academy in 1746.

As he confesses, Rousseau: 1746 (till 1750)worked for Dupin de Franceuil family. (Monsieur Dupin was a receiver general of finances). Rousseau formed new musical projects, and he was introduced by degrees to people ofrank and influence, among them Madame d’Epinay (q.v.), to whom in 1747 he was introduced by her lover M. de Francueil

Until the publication of Condillac’s first book in 1746, his brother will doubtless have seemed his mentor. However, the abbé de Mably separated himself increasingly from the philosophes and moved out to Marly, while Condillac with his further philosophical publications was in close contact with Diderot and d’Alembert.

Cocchi-L'ipocondriaco risanato (1746 Roma V),Cocchi- Bajazette (1746 Roma D) cover page: He signs as Gioachino Rossini, Cocchi-I due fratelli beffati (win.1746 Napoli N)

1747

Voltaire 1747 “The Prodigal,” before the king. was a striking success, but because of a poem to Madame de Pompadour “an indiscreet allusion to her relations with the king”, the king was induced to sign an order for his exile. This was followed by his hurried flight from court. At midnight, Voltaire, returning to his house in Fontainebleau, ordered the horses hitched to the carriage, and before daybreak left for Paris. He took refuge with the duchess du Maine in Sceaux.

January 10th, 1747, Cocceji and his Six set out for Pommern. On a longish Enterprise, in that Province and the others

March 1747 Prince Friedrich von Sachsen Gotha with his governor Thun frequents Gaspard Fritz in Geneva who dedicates a work to him in 1755.

Cocchi.La maestra (spr.1747 Napoli N) [La scaltra governatrice]
Gluck. Le nozze d'Ercole e d'Ebe (29.6.1747 Pillnitz)

Baron Bagge? Nulla di preciso conosciamo, invece, sulla sua iniziazione alla massoneria (che potrebbe essere avvenuta a Berlino prima del 1747, quando il Bagge* frequentò Federico II e da questi ricevette il titolo di ciambellano) (Samuel Cocceji was Großkanzler (grand chancellor) of Prussia in 1747).

1747 death of Henri Cochin, one of the most famous lawyers of the Parlement de Paris, praised by Voltaire for his progressive ideas. H.Cochin is the father of Augustin Henry Cochin.

1747 La Correspondance littéraire, philosophique et critique Directeur de la rédaction Melchior Grimm

1747 Philidor visits England under the auspices of Sir Janssen, strongest English player. He also defeats Stamma in a match at Slaughter's in London. Ten games.

1747 dall’Egitto e da Malta, attraverso l’opera iniziatica di illustri personaggi, tra i quali spicca l’opera di Raimondo di Sangro, Principe di San Severo, confluisce a Napoli una intensa attività di ricerca e di studio della Scienza Muratoria di Tradizione egizia.http://www.memphismisraim.it/id28.htm

About 12th Dec 47 C.L Cocceji is with Barberina in Berlin listening to the music of Carl Philip Emmanuel Bach-Bagge (The correspondence of Christian Gottfried Krause: a music lover in the age ... by Darrell Berg)

December 1747, Rouseau back in Paris

After Johanna Elisabeth was expelled from Russia in 1747, Betskoy comes to Paris … where he spent the following 15 years in commerce with the French Encyclopédistes and Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

1748. Montesquieu, The Spirit of the Laws.

Blason: Cochin - Claude-Denis, 1748. (the botanist)- D’azur, au chevron d’or, accompagné an chef de deux coqs d’or et en pointe d’une tour d’argent.
One of Paris most famous gardens by Claude Denis Cochin, today Le Jardin des Plantes). Georges Leclerc comte de Buffon, Intendant du Jardin du Roi, de l’Académie Françoise, et de l’Académie royale des Science.

Cocchi: Merope (20.1.1748 Napoli SC)

A.E.Waite: At the French court St Germain was seen about 1748

In 1748 Condillac had published anonymously the dissertation Les monades, with which he won a prize awarded by the Academy of Berlin.

Die schöne und intelligente Tänzerin hatte nicht wenige Verehrer, was den König so erzürnte, dass er der Barberina 1748 als „perfide und verführerische Kreatur“ seine Gunst entzog. Sie floh nach England, kam aber bald zurück und heiratete 1749 Carl Ludwig von Cocceji.

Rousseau moves to La Chevrette spring 1748 and is asked to take part in his “L’Engagement téméraire (OC I, p. 346 et 1423)” given six months to prepare himself for τhε role, a role he never gets. The performance takes place 14th September 1748

1748 Sommer: Gottfried Heinrich Koch und andere wichtige Schauspieler verlassen die Neubersche Gesellschaft und gehen nach Wien an das Theater am Kärtnertor.

La Semiramide riconosciuta (14.5.1748 Wien B) Gluck's first opera for Vienna. The day before had seen the celebration of the young Empress Maria Theresa’s birthday

In 1748,Gluck…Aachen, Semiramide riconosciuta , on a booklet of Métastase.

Philidor In 1748, at Aachen, he wrote his L’analyze des échecs (later revised as Analyse du jeu des échecs). With the help of the Duke of Cumberland, whom he met at Eindhoven, the book was published in London (1749);

Mitte 1748 unternahm Grimm mit seinem Schüler Gottlob Ludwig von Schönberg eine Reise nach Paris.

treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle (October 18, 1748).

1749
Grimm, der sich seit 1749 in Paris befand und von Deutschland Kenntniß und Neigung für die italiänische Musik mitgebracht hatte.By Jahreswechsel 1748/49 wechselte Grimm in den Haushalt des Herzogs Friedrich von Sachsen-Gotha und wurde dessen Vorleser. Später avancierte Grimm zum Sekretär des Grafen August Heinrich von Friesen.

Prince Friedrich of Sachsen Gotha becomes aquainted with Rousseau. Melchior Grimm is his tutor. (Confessions: ....deux Allemands attachés au prince: l’un, appelé M. Klupffell, homme de beaucoup d’esprit, était son chapelain, et devint ensuite son gouverneur, après avoir supplanté le baron; l’autre était un jeune homme, appelé M. Grimm, qui lui servait de lecteur en attendant qu’il trouvât.)

Rousseau apporte son soutien à Diderot, emprisonné à la suite de la Lettre sur les aveugles à l’usage de ceux qui voient en 1749.

Marie Fell: She sang on January 4, 1749, in the opera of Roland, before the Dauphine; ..... (about 40 years later buys the house of State Councillor Augustin Henry Cochin for the sum of 9325 livres)

Gluck. La contesa de' numi (9.4?.1749 København)

Cocchi: Farsetta in musica (1749 Roma V) ,La serva bacchettona (spr.1749 Napoli F), Siface (carn.1749 Napoli SC),Arminio (carn.1749 Roma A).

Barberina: She danced at the Berlin Court Opera until 1748, when she fell out of favour with the Prussian king over her love affair with Charles-Louis de Cocceji, son of the king's chancellor. In 1749 she married Cocceji secretly against his family's wishes, accompanying him to exile in Silesia

Voltaire: 1749 —Madame du Châtelet died under peculiar circumstances in August. Voltaire found solace in play-writing. He set up house in Paris, and invited his niece, Madame Denis, to manage for him, which she did for the remainder of his days, and thus at the age of fifty-six he had a suitable and becoming home in his native city, with an income of 74,000 francs a year, equal to about fifty thousand dollars to-day.

Durazzo Marchese (detto Conte) Giacomo Pier Francesco, Patrizio Genovese, Ministro Residente della Repubblica di Genova a Vienna dal 21-IX-1749

Koch. Oktober.Eröffnung einer neuen Bühne im großen Blumenberg.
Heinrich Gottfried Koch kehrt zurück und erhält das sächsisch-polnische Hof-Komödianten-Privileg.

Hennin débuta dans la carrière diplomatique en 1749 au dépôt des Affaires Etrangères à Paris sur la recommandation de Broglie
Pierre-Michel Hennin obtint le 18 novembre1749 de M. de Puisieulx, ministre des Affaires étrangères, (is employed at the Foreign Affairs)

Charles Nicholas Cochin NC:Les voyageurs partaient le 20 décembre 1749. Ils revenaient à la fin de septembre 1751.

Maupertuis, the French President of the Academy of Berlin, may have been influential in securing Condillac’s election to the Academy in 1749. Condillac wrote to him on Christmas Day 1749 to express his pleasure and gratitude at being elected to that body. Their correspondence corrects the mistaken later date of Condillac’s election given by Puchesse.In the letter Condillac said that it was a friend, M. d’Alembert, who had given him the news.

1750

In the same year (1750) in which Turgot traced an outline of historical Progress at the Sorbonne, Rousseau laid before the Academy of Dijon a theory of historical Regress. This Academy had offered a prize for the best essay on the question whether the revival of sciences and arts had contributed to the improvement of morals. The prize was awarded to Rousseau.

Cocchi: La Gismonda (spr.1750 Napoli F)

Voltaire left Paris June 15th, and reached, July 10th, Sans-Souci, near Potsdam, the country place of the king, seventeen miles from Berlin.

JSBACH....died on 28 July 1750 at the age of 65

August 25th, 1750 Collini is in Berlin with the Barberinas and Voltaire

Gluck. Ezio (carn.1750 Praha)

Cocchi. Siroe (carn.1750 Venezia SGG),

Voltaire is a guest of FredericII until 1753.

Voltaire is known to have used at least 178 separate pen names during his lifetime.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Nulla di preciso conosciamo, invece, sulla sua iniziazione alla massoneria (che potrebbe essere avvenuta a Berlino prima del 1747, quando il Bagge frequentò Federico II e da questi ricevette il titolo di ciambellano). Membro de "Les Neuf Soeurs" almeno sin dal 1778 (di conseguenza, egli potrebbe aver avuto parte, per quanto concerne gli apparati musicali nell'organizzazione delle due cerimonie in onore di Voltaire, l'una per l'iniziazione e l'altra commemorativa della scomparsa di quel grande), e nel 1783-84 figura come primo direttore dei concerti della loggia. Di fede luterana, morì a Parigi il 24 marzo 1791, avvelenato, si disse calunniosamente, dall'amante.
(Mirabeau jr death in 2nd April 1791)

If it's not all greek to you, enjoy!

[Musicology]

Hi there Yanni,

I am due to meet this Greek visitor in about an hour from now in London so I will not write long.

This information on Bach etc. is interesting and I will discuss it as soon as I can.

I see no reference to Bach there.

(By the way it was not JC Bach who died in 1750 but J.S. Bach).

Anyway, it's all interesting, for sure. And I will reply as soon as I can.

Regards

Robert

[yanni]

Check my last post in "your" JSBach thread and do return here for your comments when recovered.

In the meantime I'll enjoy reading Alberto Basso's research, so relevant to mine!

Anyway:

Frederick II's Bagge is Mozart's Bagge ie "Carl Friedrich Ernst von Cocceji (1725–1780)" or "Charles-Ernest Ennal de Bagge (1722 - 1791)".

[Musicology]

Hi there Yanni,

I got back from meeting the Greek friend of my friend. It was very interesting, for sure. He introduced me to a drink of 'colloidal silver water' ! Something I have heard of before but have never actually seen or tasted before. Used (so it seems) by those who are in to healthy foods etc. Tasted like distilled water.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3R1KQALZH0UJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_uses_of_silver+colloidal+silver&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Alberto Basso's research is highly recommended by musicologists in Italy.

However, I have still not seen evidence of your description of Cocchi as a significant factor in the life and career of J.S. Bach. In fact, the evidence we have is of enemies of J.S. Bach operating from Leipzig University (which may well have included Cocchi). Again, the same is true of the circumstances behind Bach's 'Art of Fugue'. Where, once again, he was under severe criticism at Potsdam. So, yes, it's an interesting subject.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sEp5a6jRadMC&dq=evening+in+the+palace+of+reason+bach&source=bl&ots=vE-TpH3Y8I&sig=bjdXiAxmjgl92ZQPlGAFqMUbGi8&hl=en&ei=nme_S5bxJp720wTcrdmTCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAw


There are modern musicologists and editors of the music industry who are inventing all kinds of (fraternal) fictions about the history of music. I could name some, even in mainstream Bach research. But I will do this only if you have some evidence of J.S. Bach being influenced by Cocchi. That will be interesting, for sure.

Regards



Check my last post in "your" JSBach thread and do return here for your comments when recovered.

In the meantime I'll enjoy reading Alberto Basso's research, so relevant to mine!

Anyway:

Frederick II's Bagge is Mozart's Bagge ie "Carl Friedrich Ernst von Cocceji (1725–1780)" or "Charles-Ernest Ennal de Bagge (1722 - 1791)".

[yanni]

My timeline may be an opportunity to address the sensitive subject of pre 1752 music history and provenance and also a reason to research the Cocceji-Cassini link more thoroughly, if truth is what "we" are after.

The family's political role in European -and not only-History has already been addressed by me elsewhere, so let's focus just on my timeline:

"I have still not seen evidence of your description of Cocchi as a significant factor in the life and career of J.S. Bach", you write:

With Samuel Cocceji being what he was in Prussia (eversince 1730's) and his specific role in "Silesia" as from 1742 (and much earlier-their relations to the polish royal family is a story yet to be written btw) this is really a surprising answer in view of JSBach's own life story and absolute dependence, like everybody else's, on Prussia's allmighty chiefchancellor.

I don't believe Gioachino Cocchi ever studied in Leipzig btw: His "entrance" as "Carl Ludwig Cocceji" was with the approval of Frederick II (whose chamberlain, military adjutant and diplomatic representative later was Carl-Ernst von Cocceji) and he was already a formed composer at the time he associated with La Barberina (1743-4), shortly before London.

Well, no matter, at least I was able to solve the puzzle of Mozart's "Bagge" (and remove him, "Bricaire de La Dixmerie" and a few others from my my "Cocchi aliases" list).

Every cloud has a silver lining.

Regards.

[Musicology]

Thanks Yanni.

I will try to comment on this tomorrow.

Regards



My timeline may be an opportunity to address the sensitive subject of pre 1752 music history and provenance and also a reason to research the Cocceji-Cassini link more thoroughly, if truth is what "we" are after.

The family's political role in European -and not only-History has already been addressed by me elsewhere, so let's focus just on my timeline:

"I have still not seen evidence of your description of Cocchi as a significant factor in the life and career of J.S. Bach", you write:

With Samuel Cocceji being what he was in Prussia (eversince 1730's) and his specific role in "Silesia" as from 1742 (and much earlier-their relations to the polish royal family is a story yet to be written btw) this is really a surprising answer in view of JSBach's own life story and absolute dependence, like everybody else's, on Prussia's allmighty chiefchancellor.

I don't believe Gioachino Cocchi ever studied in Leipzig btw: His "entrance" as "Carl Ludwig Cocceji" was with the approval of Frederick II (whose chamberlain, military adjutant and diplomatic representative later was Carl-Ernst von Cocceji) and he was already a formed composer at the time he associated with La Barberina (1743-4), shortly before London.

Well, no matter, at least I was able to solve the puzzle of Mozart's "Bagge" (and remove him, "Bricaire de La Dixmerie" and a few others from my my "Cocchi aliases" list).

Every cloud has a silver lining.

Regards.

[yanni]

It is a big subsubject indeed. It exhausted me yesterday and so I left it incomplete, ommiting the other "Bagge" ie JCBach and his relations to his other (and truer) Bach brothers:

If Carl Ernst Cocceji was transformed into a "Bagge" with the blessing of his ruler Frederick (to serve his purposes in France and elsewhere) so did most propably "JCBach" who appears in London 1762 as a replacement of "Cocchi/Gluck".

Therefore

Re "JC Bach":

-Gilmore Music Library’s Opochinsky Collection does not include any of his letters but includes letterrs of his "brother" CPEBach and of FJHaydn.
-You have never come across any correspondence of his with his brothers or father.
-He is said to have replaced Gioachino Cocchi in London, 1762, with Cocchi "allegedly" staying there nevertheless "for the better part of the next ten years" which is absolutely false.

IE

There never was a real "JCBach" but one cannot definitely identify him as another alias of Giochino Cocchi just yet.
They certainly collaborated serving the Hannoverian-Prussian alliance until it later broke down but the matter of his identity is still open

I will try to close it because of "JCBach's" other, possibly more important, aliases.

Re "Baron Bagge" again, here is an assortment of what we said earlier on him:

....so does "Baron de Bagge-Bach", ie Charles-Ernest Ennal http://www.torrentdownloads.net/torrent/18725 who, according to http://kosiv.info/ed/grove/Entries/S01761.htm, was born in Fockenhof, Kurland (hah-hah!!), 14 Feb 1722 and died Paris, 24 March 1791)
The fact that Bagge's only existing original portrait (as well as the engraving of manuals of his concerts dedicated to the King of Prussia-see Mercure de France, May 1st, 1784), is by Charles Nicholas Cochin*** (Ben Franklin's and Raynal's portraitist-and L'Encyclopedie's illustrator), then commanding painting and sculpture in France, speaks for itself but, if still in doubt...

....look for a german speaking "Brother Bagge", expert in string instruments, appearing in Salem, New York, July the 4th, 1780 ie while "Chastellux" was enjoying himslef in New York!
See http://www.amis.org/publications/new.../34.2-2005.pdf.

Portsmouth was the site of the first African American military unit, the 1st Rhode Island Regiment, to fight for the U.S. in the Battle of Rhode Island August 29, 1778.
In the course of the American Revolution, Manning was serving as president of Brown in 1780 when French troops under the command of the Comte de Rochambeau, who led troops sent by King Louis XVI of France, landed in Newport, Rhode Island to aid American troops under the command of General George Washington in the American Revolutionary War. These allied troops were based in Rhode Island for a year before they embarked on a 600-mile (970 km) march in 1781 from Rhode Island to Virginia, where they fought and defeated British forces sent by King George III of the United Kingdom on the Yorktown, Virginia peninsula in the Siege of Yorktown and the Battle of the Chesapeake. During the year of preparation in Rhode Island and under the tenure of James Manning, the Brown campus was turned into an encampment site for soldiers, and the College Edifice at Brown (later renamed University Hall) was converted into a military hospital. (Wikipedia)

Truth seeking readers may, however, place "chevalier or marquis de Chastellux"'s (same man as "Brother Bagge", both aliases of Gioachino Cocchi, ie "Le comte de Saint Germain") contribution to the American War for Independence (during the am "march to Yorktown" in particular) in above timeline, such as ....

June 1781: Chastellux tricks the brits into believing the attack would be against New York (http://www.hudsonrivervalley.net/AME...OOK/PDF/R4.pdf

Also, to further cure your jesuit fixation, check out a book published in Paris 1777-8 or so by the title "Consultation pour le Baron et la Baronne de Bagge" that led to the author's- a lawyer-imprisonement after reactions by the Paris clergy, ie shortly before "Raynal's" book on Philosophy was burned.

The fact is Mozart, following his father's advise to contact Bagge and obtain his "blessing" and support, never met him in 1778 (his host Grimm telling him Bagge was absent in London) .

When Mozart became wiser, he met Bagge once only, in Vienna, 1784, to confirm the cover of "ridiculous amateur musician"-patron of the arts and melomaniac.

Mozart was very inexperienced in 1778 and "Bagge" very busy!
Leopold knew Gluck, Cocchi and Grimm were the same person but was not allowed access to "Bache" and propably "Gavinier" and "Gossec" at the time(1764).

"Bagge's" likeness to "Carl Ludwig Cocceji" is remarkable however:

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=338502&imageID=1100969&total=1&num=0&parent_id=300356&word=&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&lword=&lfield=&imgs=20&pos=1&snum=0&e=w
http://www.peusshares.com/aukdo/AukDetail.php?id2=2&TaskId=5&ik1=00033&ik2=Auktion_378-379&id1=639267

...thus telling us that his dying in Paris a suspiciously "convenient" date already, 24 March 1791, almost simultaneously with Mirabeau jr, is not true for all "three"* of them.

IE Carl Ernst Cocceji was certainly a "lookalike" brother of -his allegedly younger-Carl Ludwig Cocceji (they look like twins in fact but with some age difference, their two portraits 20years apart and Bagge already old in the earlier), thus making their "puzzle" more difficult to solve.

And the problem is they both look also much like FZHaydn** as well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Haydn).

Regards.

* Mirabeau's junior portrait and biography details definitely excludes him as an alias (not as an insider-collaborator however). His father's (Victor Riquetti de Mirabeau) portrait http://www.culture.gouv.fr/lumiere/documents/oeuvres/Aved.gif, time of passing and and works however do not!!

**By "a" Thomas Hardy, possibly the same as "Kiss me Hardy", ie Th.Hardy, later Vice admiral, Nelson's flagofficer in Trafalgar......because of Nelson's own mysterious visit to Eisenstadt, September 6, 1800 (Lord Nelson begins a four-day visit to Eisenstadt. Among his party is Sir William Hamilton and his wife, Lady Hamilton, who is a particular admirer of Haydn (68). During the stay, Lady Hamilton will sing Haydn’s cantata Arianna a Naxos and The Battle of the Nile accompanied by the composer at the piano.)

PS Coincidentaly I am listening on the radio one of "those" classical music hours on trompet, Leopold and Wofgang Mozart (one using it, the other not) , Giuseppe Tartini (concerto), Telemann (first concerto), Giuseppe Torelli(concerto for trompet) and Rossini (La Danza) with many "historic" references as decor. Possibly by your silverlined friend (Nikos?).


Thanks Yanni.

I will try to comment on this tomorrow.

Regards

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Here are my thoughts on the subject of Bach, his sons, various members of the Cocchi family and a number of puzzles related to music before the time of Johann Sebastian’s death in 1750.

If you look closely at European music of the ‘late baroque’ (let’s say, from 1710 to 1750) you find a short period of time when the rivalry (and propaganda) of the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation appears to have been put to one side. This is very important to note. And it’s not often spoken about. A few examples -

1. Note the number of works by Vivaldi that were transcribed and arranged by J.S. Bach. The admiration of Bach for composers such as Zelenka, etc. And numerous others in Italy. Remarkable, for sure. (A list of these is very revealing. It shows Bach was hugely well informed of music and musical developments in Italy. Far more than most other musicians of his time).

2. In short, there were individuals within the musical world of that time who interacted with each other although, officially, such interactions were still frowned on. Vivaldi’s relationship with Vienna is another case. (The city where he died).

3. Examine the life and career of Bach’s colleagues such as Telemann. Now, Telemann’s chamber music was very fashionable in Paris, and was published there, for many years. The quality of works by Telemann, Fasch and other composers of the German late baroque was admired very widely. German quality of orchestration and harmony was widely admired. And, for a time, this interaction between composers threatened or worked against the dogmas of the Counter-Reformation. But it was finally stopped.

4. If we examine the entire records of Italy during this period we find (amazingly) no reference at all to J.S. Bach or his music. A silence so real some explanation for it must exist. Again, in Vienna, capital of the Holy Roman Empire, nobody knew or performed or published music by Bach until close to 50 years after his death. It was J.N. Forkel who laughed at this clear example of suppression when he published the first biography and when he revealed the works to the ignorant Viennese of his musical legacy they had missed.

5. We know for sure by the 1760’s and 1770’s there was still resistance to Bach becoming more widely known. I mean, you can’t have a Lutheran Kapellmeister being praised across the Europe of the Holy Roman Empire. We know Bach’s ‘48 Preludes and Fugues’ were soon being admired privately in Italy. (Theorists such as Padre Martini in Italy owned a copy of them at the time of Mozart’s visits to Italy, etc).

6. The known facts of Bach’s life clearly show the hostility that existed towards him and his music. Numerous examples. Such as -

a. The imprisonment of Bach during the time he wrote the 48 Preludes and Fugues.
b. The organ challenge to Bach by the visiting (Jesuit educated) Marchand of Paris. (Cancelled at the last moment by Marchand). Imagine the propaganda victory that would have occurred if Marchand had defeated his rival in Germany !
c. Growing criticism and obstructions to Bach’s career from musicians and the authorities of Leipig University.
d. A series of published attacks appearing on Bach in various journals and newspaper articles during the last decade of Bach's life.
e. The background to publication of Bach’s ‘Art of Fugue’ - this intended as Bach’s answer to the critical musical fashions of his time.

This opposition against him and his career was no doubt organised. And it’s within it (this counter-Reformation opposition, now basically occultist in nature) where I think you would find the role of the Cocchi you have refered to.

7. If you examine the other disputes/debates of this time (e.g. in physics) you see Leipzig University was itself a centre of the new cult of Newtonian physics. This built upon ideas that had actually been stolen earlier from the German Leibnitz. So the anti-Bach movement (which was occultist) were now promoting Newton (with the help of the Venetians) as the new ‘hero’ of science. Blatantly stealing the discoveries of Leibnitz and claiming them as belonging to Newton. (Himself an occultist).

8. Numerous examples of obstructions against Bach’s musical career are undoubtedly coming from Leipzig University. So, once again, I believe we can find Cocchi’s role in that opposition there and elsewhere at the time.

9. The conversion of various of Bach's sons to Roman Catholicism was seen as a great victory at the time. But the silence that existed generally on Bach's music tended to neutralised the effect. (In the case of CPE Bach it seems he was allied more with the occultists of the British Empire (through the strong British presence in Hamburg of the British East India Company). And, by this time, the occultists of the Venetians had already long ago infiltrated the British cultural and political system. So that, for example, it was from Britain Freemasonry was exported from 1717 etc.

10. There are therefore 3 and not two angles to those times. Each of which show evidence of interacting.

a. The Reformation and its effects (e.g. in the music of Bach and others)
b. The Musical Counter Reformation
c. The Emergence of the Venetian/British Empire occultist control of the music industry.

If Cocchi or others in German speaking lands had impact on Bach's career it was through the opposition that existed at that time. A Venetian and now British Empire occultism which, within a century, started to control the music industry of the early 19th century.

Regards

Robert

[yanni]

Between 1750-1815 the world turned upside down twice, ending up this time with a much weaker "Rome" but no "Holy Roman Empire" to protect it.

Obviously JS Bach's music was supressed AFTER this period in Roman Catholic lands only (to be rediscovered later on by lutherans) whereas ALL dogmas were second stage 1750-1815, as compared to neoclassic enlightment.

Another broadside of yours gone astray, Robert, but thanks all the same.

[Musicology]

Thanks Yanni but I believe the broad outlines are those already given. Control of the 'Enlightenment' was from the start designed to protect 'Rome' under the illusion of a 'secularised society' and it does so today musically through the corporate music industry and through those publishers and editors who have clearly turned musical history upside down.

Regards




Between 1750-1815 the world turned upside down twice, ending up this time with a much weaker "Rome" but no "Holy Roman Empire" to protect it.

Obviously JS Bach's music was supressed AFTER this period in Roman Catholic lands only (to be rediscovered later on by lutherans) whereas ALL dogmas were second stage 1750-1815, as compared to neoclassic enlightment.

Another broadside of yours gone astray, Robert, but thanks all the same.

[yanni]

Here is a short history of religious developments in Brandenburg "covering" with a blank the 1752-1815 period, Robert:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelische_Kirche_Berlin-Brandenburg-schlesische_Oberlausitz#Geschichte

As for music:

A "clean agenda" musicologist would jump to the opportunity to discuss "Kiss me Hardy" of 1792 (http://www.cph.rcm.ac.uk/Virtual%20Exhibitions/Haydn/Haydn1.htm) and the trio's controversial return to London from Naples, eight years later, taking the longest route possible, via Eisenstadt and Praque, just to see their friend Haydn, a very controversial character himself, and listen (and participate as well) to his Missa in Angustiis or "Nelson Mass".

"Dare" scratch the ground you stand on, there is a whole treasure under your feet!

In the meantime, here is a roman catholic's hymn written for a Roman emperor in despair, a victorious british admiral and all anguished musicologists with no exception!

(In "Mozart's" one and only D major, moreover! :smilielol5:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpu7CGXdYl0&feature=related

Did Emma sing this piece to, I wonder?

And here is another portrait of an earlier "Haydn":

http://c18.net/18/a.php?nom=r_presentation

:hand:


Thanks Yanni but I believe the broad outlines are those already given. Control of the 'Enlightenment' was from the start designed to protect 'Rome' under the illusion of a 'secularised society' and it does so today musically through the corporate music industry and through those publishers and editors who have clearly turned musical history upside down.

Regards

[yanni]

(a puzzle in a puzzle, sort of)

Johann Sebastian's early years and musical heritage are still a mystery but the fact is, some bits and pieces of evidence managed to escape the eye and peek of musicology's hawks and, as it now turns out, Johann Sebastian "Bach" was at least as "influenced" by Kochs as Mozart, Beethoven and Goethe were:

His first name was that of his other godfather, Johann Georg Koch, a forester in Eisenach....

Nothing is known for certain about Sebastian early years until 1693...

Bach was indefatigable in copying manuscripts to replace Ahles less adventurous repertory, aided by Johann Martin Schubart, the earliest of his many distinguished pupils, and Johann Sebastian Koch, his choir prefect

1734 wurde Johann Philipp Ostertag, vorher Konrektor am Gymnasium, zum Stadtpfarrer ernannt. Er wurde unterstützt von dem zum Stadtdiakon berufenen in Idstein geborenen Theologen Johann Sebastian Koch, der außerdem am Gymnasium noch einige Stunden Unterricht in der französischen Sprache erteilte.

Ostertag's mentor in "mystagogie" and only reputable biographer however, Wieland, 1802, claims Ostertag was born 1734: de.wikisource.org/.../ADB:Ostertag,_Johann_Philipp

...and as we remember writing not long ago....

...Franziska Koch, a famous singer of her time who drowned her sorrow to sing then (in tune but on and off only) with Wieland and Benda "Romeo and Juliette" and "Alceste", the first german opera seria. Gluck is also frequently mentioned in this book but there is no apparent relation to Mme Koch or Wielands "Alceste" whatsoever....

...and Wieland was in...Zürich in the summer of 1752. After a few months, however, Bodmer felt himself as little in sympathy with Wieland as, two years earlier, he had felt himself with Klopstock, and the friends parted; but Wieland remained in Switzerland until 1760, spending the last year, at Bern where he obtained a position as private tutor. Here he became intimate with Jean-Jacques Rousseau's friend Julie de Bondeli.

IE

There never was a Johann Sebastian "Bach"...

and

...three cheers for the noble science of forestry-musicology!

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

-The Master Musiciens. Bach. Oxford University Press. Edited by Stanley Sadie.
-Bach, a biography by ES Terry
- http://www.pfarrverein-ekhn.de/web/pfarrblatt/200405/kirchengeschichte.html

[Musicology]

Yanni,

So you believe there was no person named Johann Sebastian Bach ? Strange, since, in October 1707 J.S. Bach married his cousin, Maria Barbara Bach. The children of this marriage included Carl Philip Emanuel Bach.

Bach's wife Maria died in 1720. In 1721, he married Anna Magdalena Wilcke (the daughter of the town trumpeter); they had 13children together (including Johann Christian Bach). Altogether, Bach had 20 children with his two wives, but 10 of these died in infancy. Four went on to become well-known composers and musicians.

As for the Koch name - found very widely across Europe.

1. Johannes Henricus Koch
(1640-1702)
Born Erfurt, Germany

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:irBPimgnhPAJ:www.meckedruck.de/buch/420+johannes+koch+1640&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

2. Johann George Koch (1702-1762)
Swiss Painter

3. Johann Leonhard Koch (b. 1702 - ?)
Painter

http://www.artnet.com/artist/716900/johann-georg-koch.html

//

[yanni]

(alternative title "The cards manufacturer of Musicology's Tower").

Wilhelm Friedemann Bach is not to be confused with Wilhelm Friedrich Ernst Bach*, his nephew, also a composer. Friedemann himself may have been one of the models for Diderot's philosophical dialogue Rameau's Nephew (Le Neveu de Rameau).

...and,until now, silly me believed Rousseau was Rameau's nephew:conehead:

This last good german, Whilhelm Friedmann "Bach" (to distinguish him from the other "bad jesuit, francoitalian Baches"*)-provided J.S.Bach's family data to good german Forkel who published his first biography in 1802, simultaneoulsy with good german Wieland's previous publication (Wieland, Deutscher Merkur, Januar 1802)!

Wieland btw, who wrote something or other on Gluck's "Alceste", was Julie Bondeli's first lover, seconded immediately after by "Rousseau" (who was as suisse as Gaspard Fritz and Pierre Michel Hennin but in any case often in Switzerland during Wieland's stay -1750'to 60's and long before)!

And, inbetween aliases, Rouseau wrote his "Julie" or "Lettres de deux amans habitans d'une petite ville au pied des Alpes ("Letters from two lovers living in a small town at the foot of the Alps")." sometime before 1761 and had it published in Holland somewhere!

...and, according to Forkel's associate musicologist "Koch", Georg Forster (forester?), Ben Franklin's Forster (Eripuit coelo fulmen, mox sceptra tyrannis) was a German! (p112, Enlightenment Orpheus: the power of music in other worlds by Vanessa Agnew).

That's the way things are, Robert, for better or worse, and don't bother repeating your usual "poem" for an answer!

* Baron Bache or Bagge or even Bogge! "bache" means butcher in german whereas "bach" means stream!

:party: many Kochs partying with Rousseau-Koch-Wieland in the middle carrying the balloon of Forkel's Lexicon ueber alles!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

What exactly is the point you are trying to make ?

1. That J.S. Bach never existed

2. After this theory of yours I admit that I'm becoming more confused again by the point of your post.

[yanni]

My point was to prove that:

Johann Sebastian "Bach" was at least as "influenced" by Kochs as Mozart, Beethoven and Goethe were.

Relevant research then produced sufficient evidence leading to the conclusion that...

There never was a Johann Sebastian "Bach"...*

...followed by an obvious-and long justified already**- supplement, titled....

The cards manufacturer of Musicology's Tower

...supported nevertheless with even more evidence to identify once more the manufacturer, justify the title and bring down your (and every other musicologist's) tower of cards, including your last trump card, "JSBach"!

I normally don't enjoy spoiling other peoples dreams (or hidden agendas), mind you, but one should generally avoid false prophets, creators of illusions and sand castles...

..... and....

You are always wellcome to produce specific evidence to the contrary.... but no more theories, if you please!

BTW I just discovered "our" paths crossed in Queen Victoria's time.

Regards.

:angel:

*but there is on record (put there however by "Wieland" ie "Rousseau" ie "Koch" etc etc ) a french speaking "abbe" Johann Sebastian "Koch" somehow involved in "early Bach's" musical tuition and "copying". "He", the phantom of the opera, was a liar for sure, but he insisted on leaving his mark behind. Then Mendelsohn took over and "Joseph Sebastian Bach" was creatively "improved" along with the rest of the greatest lie in human history!

**See http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46636&page=20 (post 280 and later on baron "Bagge"-Bach) and...
..... http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=877705 (post 2 and later)









Yanni,

What exactly is the point you are trying to make ?

1. That J.S. Bach never existed

2. After this theory of yours I admit that I'm becoming more confused again by the point of your post.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Argument along these lines brings no credit to you or I. If, as you say, 'there never was a Johann Sebastian Bach' the complete nonsense in that statement is nowhere more clearly contradicted than by your own statement that 'Johann Sebastian "Bach" was at least as "influenced" by Kochs as Mozart, Beethoven and Goethe were''.

J.S. Bach, (a man you say never actually existed and who lived between 1685 and 1750) was 'greatly influenced by Kochs' ! Though he, Bach, never actually existed ! Such is the universe you wish to create. And you want others to believe this.

Fortunately, the chaos and confusion of your ideas is not beyond solution. It was and is explained by the fact that you are susceptible to a movement. A movement whose aim always ir was and still is to impose on the history of culture (and of music) a dogmatic phantom who (in your view) was responsible for the careers and achievements of virtually everyone in Europe. The details of which are, and will forever be dubious and of no verifiable kind. Since I can equally 'prove' Mr Smith (aka Schmidt) is the greatest composer, artist, sculptor, writer, philosopher, inventor, and philosopher who ever lived. Or Mr Brown. Or Mr Black. Since those names are common too.

This is the equivalent of imposing on the history of music what has so clearly been imposed by academics on the history of science. A dogma of giant size whose real origins are of course that occultist, fraternal invention of reputations and achievements which we see today in our textbooks.

To say the Cocchi clan (and it was a 'clan') were associated with lives and career of composers, writers and other creative people of the music industry is already accepted by me. And why would it not be ? But to say they (these Cocchi's) were 'influential' without telling us in what way, and to further say J.S Bach never existed, and to say Cocchi was not one but hundreds of people and was again only one person with a thousand aliases, who wrote this music or those publications are statements so vague, so unfounded they become almost meaningless.

I again repeat we are discussing in the case of the Cocchis a cultural network that certainly existed across Europe of the 18th and 19th centuries of which these, the Cocchi's were undoubtedly a part. And so you have your solution, though you may run around it in circles forever without actually appreciating it.

To which cultural network did these Cocchi's belong ? It is surely this question which should engage your talents. Since you will, if you accept this fact, eventually arrive at the simple, plain conclusion that they (these Cocchi's) belonged to and were servants of the vested interests of elites, occultist elites, who created (amongst other things) the music industry, and who invented the reputations of those today who are icons of that industry. There were thus, in reality, many Cocchis. And if this basic fact now dawns on you Yanni we have made some progress in your voyage of discovery. Not much, but enough to hope that the common thread which runs through all of their careers will, in the end, lead you to tell us the nature of the network of which they were all a part.

Regards









My point was to prove that:

Johann Sebastian "Bach" was at least as "influenced" by Kochs as Mozart, Beethoven and Goethe were.

Relevant research then produced sufficient evidence leading to the conclusion that...

There never was a Johann Sebastian "Bach"...*

...followed by an obvious-and long justified already**- supplement, titled....

The cards manufacturer of Musicology's Tower

...supported nevertheless with even more evidence to identify once more the manufacturer, justify the title and bring down your (and every other musicologist's) tower of cards, including your last trump card, "JSBach"!

I normally don't enjoy spoiling other peoples dreams (or hidden agendas), mind you, but one should generally avoid false prophets, creators of illusions and sand castles...

..... and....

You are always wellcome to produce specific evidence to the contrary.... but no more theories, if you please!

BTW I just discovered "our" paths crossed in Queen Victoria's time.

Regards.

:angel:

*but there is on record (put there however by "Wieland" ie "Rousseau" ie "Koch" etc etc ) a french speaking "abbe" Johann Sebastian "Koch" somehow involved in "early Bach's" musical tuition and "copying". "He", the phantom of the opera, was a liar for sure, but he insisted on leaving his mark behind. Then Mendelsohn took over and "Joseph Sebastian Bach" was creatively "improved" along with the rest of the greatest lie in human history!

**See http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46636&page=20 (post 280 and later on baron "Bagge"-Bach) and...
..... http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=877705 (post 2 and later)

[yanni]

Try offering an explanation on the very specific (mountain of? series of? pile of pile's of? chaotic and abysmal cess-pool?) "inconsistencies" deriving mainly from your Britanica and Grove, Robert, instead of questioning me for insisting on highlighting them while suffering from your "empty" answers all along.

(Wieland, Forkel, Koch and JS"Bach" are registered as true lutherans however, you've got to remember that in case you change your attitude.)

To return the compliment of your verse, you will, I am sure, enjoy reading Wieland's Serafina (translated into English Verse by no less than Alfred Baskerville, 1853) and then care perhaps to identify her for your avid future readers and yourstruly!

http://www.lindahines.net/blog/?p=2375

...and, while talking on vested interests, you bypassed my comment on your esteemed (and dogma-free/objective, isn't that how you describe him in other threads??) Mendelsohn!

:angel:

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Let it be acknowledged that the organisations of the Roman Catholic Church and those which were founded from Lutheran Protestantism came to the point at which time they, from a Christian perspective, became utterly useless and irrelevant. So the history of what we can call Churchianity is and always was a very different thing from that of Christianity. Differing from each other in a thousand ways by their works, the man-made nature of denominational heirarchies, and by their different teachings. So that neither you nor I need to confuse these two things. Let if further be acknowledged that, in terms of church denominations, that of Rome (with its papacy) is the earliest which happily married itself to the state, to the world, in fact, and that all other similar organisations are later daughters of the same. In short, our understanding of Christianity is not defined by the countless and shameful examples we see of Churchianity. Since one is a man-made counterfeit of the other.

As for Felix Mendelssohn - I know for certain various of 'his' early works were supplied to him from other composers. I know too (and have said it often enough) that the British Empire was deeply involved in the cultural and musical control of the western world which we see today in textbooks. As I have repeatedly said. And Mendelssohn is no different. Indeed, you should examine the close working relationship of Mendelssohn with Goethe (Illuminatist), who supplied the same Mendelssohn with various early musical works, as already said.

As for Mendelssohn's role in promoting the virtually unknown works of J.S. Bach this deserves some explanation. And it exists in various ways.

1. The secularisation of the 'Holy Roman Empire' which occurred during the time of Napoleon and beyond it gave rise to a new, assertive movement of national independence. Nowhere more clearly do we see this than in Germany, in Bohemia, and, later, in Italy and other places. This rise of NATIONALISM was a clear feature of the early 19th century - at the very time the music industry was in massive expansion with plans to expand internationally. So the interests of the music industry (which were even at this time INTERNATIONAL) were checked/stalled by the interests of various nations who were newly independent. These two sets of rival interests (nationalism/internationalism) are the main feature, musically and culturally, of the first 4 or 5 decades of the 19th century. Thus, writers such as JN Forkel were keen to emphasise the musical achievements of J.S. Bach as a national marvel (which had been amazingly ignored by the Holy Roman Empire), and so too was Felix Mendelssohn, whose support from the British Empire and its elites was compatible with the myth of a 'Protestant' England. That is why, eventually, the legacy of Bach was promoted by this F. Mendelssohn, even although Mendelssohn himself was very much a product of the same fraternities who had invented the heroes and icons of the music industry.

2. The history of the Mendelssohn family and their role in the international movement which gained momentum with the Illuminatists is very clear in the role of that banking family in the salons of Vienna and elsewhere during the late 18th and early 19th century.

3. Far from being dogmatic, the fact is a startled Vienna ('city of music') was as ignorant of J.S. Bach and his music 40 and 50 years after the time of his death it's matched today only by the ignorance of the music industry itself. It was this fact which made J.N. Forkel laugh.

Music, as a cultural force, (as were many aspects of western culture) had to be controlled by the rulers of a newly secularised western Europe. And what better way, musically, than the rise of a 'Vienna trio' of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven ? Who emerged as 'Viennese composers' with the full assistance and propaganda of the now secularised Vienna and its music industry. 'Vienna, city of music', which, with the usual amnesia, now ignoring its own, actual, musical history. Wholesale. Removing from textbooks composers who were hugely popular in late 18th century Vienna such as Vanhal, Wranitsky, Salieri, Gazzaniga, Sarti and dozens of others, and this within a few decades of the 19th century - their lives and achievements now drowned out by the 'Vienna' trio of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. Who were now international icons. Thanks to the Vienna elites and the emerging music industry. Who, as 'international' composers were now in huge demand in Paris, London, and elsewhere, even at the expense of musical history itself. Yet another example of the highly selective memories of the emerging musical industry !

Opera in Vienna had been dominated in the late 18th century for decades by names which were now quickly and conveniently forgotten. Proof positive of what Forkel had predicted. That the music industry would invent and inflate its own 'heroes'. This they did. And even rewrote the history of music to ensure that these, the icons of musical culture, would literally dominate our musical landscape as they have done for the past 200 years. By 1814 early concerts of the London Philharmonic were dominated by works of 'W.A. Mozart'. The propaganda of Haydn already done there. And soon, Beethoven's works were in as much demand in Paris and London as in Vienna and Berlin. The music industry indeed !! Viva Vienna !!

None of these things are difficult to understand. Music was used as a form of propaganda. And if that music or that composer was not allied with the fraternities now controlling music he could be, and often was forgotten.

So that Mendelssohn's promotion of Bach was almost incidental. Within a few more decades the revival of Bach was itself soon replaced by the superheroes of 'Vienna - city of music'. And musicology itself, now hijacked by the writers of the 'history of music'. Carefully editing out the actual lives, actual achievements, and actual history of music itself. As we see today.


Regards






Try offering an explanation on the very specific (mountain of? series of? pile of pile's of? chaotic and abysmal cess-pool?) "inconsistencies" deriving mainly from your Britanica and Grove, Robert, instead of questioning me for insisting on highlighting them while suffering from your "empty" answers all along.

(Wieland, Forkel, Koch and JS"Bach" are registered as true lutherans however, you've got to remember that in case you change your attitude.)

To return the compliment of your verse, you will, I am sure, enjoy reading Wieland's Serafina (translated into English Verse by no less than Alfred Baskerville, 1853) and then care perhaps to identify her for your avid future readers and yourstruly!

http://www.lindahines.net/blog/?p=2375

...and, while talking on vested interests, you bypassed my comment on your esteemed (and dogma-free/objective, isn't that how you describe him in other threads??) Mendelsohn!

:angel:

[yanni]

Your poetic generalities, other than overlooking a few decades here and there*, do nothing in the way of explaining your remarkable promotion of Mendelsohn in other threads and also ommit my offered verse of Wieland's (and Mendelsohn's and Baskerville's) "Serafina"** as well as my call to identify her.

Mendelsohn is credited (or charged) with first publishing (1823?) your version of "a" Johann Sebastian Bach which you do a poor job in supporting through evidence however.

At least you are consistent in defending your threatened "other" agenda.

That's good!

Regards!

*Vienna and Rome were at the receiving end of a wide and well coordinated "globalist" attack, 1750-1815 (the period you always bypass), that ended at the expense of both (after "going thru" events in USA and France). My "hero" and ancestor, Cocchi or "Comte de Saint Germain" or "phantom of the opera" plus many other aliases including "Wieland" and "Friedmann Bach", was very much in charge of the attack but definitely not the sole "mastermind".

**Serafina Giuseppina Balsamo, "Count Cagliostro's" wife!

[Musicology]

Hi there Yannni,

At the time of Felix Mendelssohn's birth (in 1809) his father Abraham already possessed a collection of Bach manuscripts, acquired at auction in Hamburg 4 years before (1805), 43 of these subsequently (in 1811) sent to the Berlin Singakademie for safe-keeping. That's long, long before Mendelssohn ever went to school.

In 1823 (or possibly 1824), Felix's maternal grandmother, Bella Salomon, presented Felix Mendelssohn with a gift that was to alter the course of his life: a copyist's manuscript score of J.S. Bach's St. Matthew Passion.

So I really must point these facts out to you. Nearly 20 years earlier than you suppose the Mendelssohn family already had various Bach manuscripts.

You write -

*Vienna and Rome were at the receiving end of a wide and well coordinated "globalist" attack, 1750-1815 (the period you always bypass), that ended at the expense of both (after "going thru" events in USA and France). My "hero" and ancestor, Cocchi or "Comte de Saint Germain" or "phantom of the opera" plus many other aliases including "Wieland" and "Friedmann Bach", was very much in charge of the attack but definitely not the sole "mastermind".

Well, if Cocchi ('plus many other aliases') was 'very much in charge of the attack but not the sole mastermind' why not name some others of this network so that we can make some progress on this matter ? And what exactly is the 'attack' you are refering to ?? What was its purpose ? And who were the main people besides Cocchi ? Who were they working for ? And will you agree, therefore, that Cocchi was part of a network ?

It's when we ask for specifics you seem to be unable to provide answers.

Anyway, you can see what I've said is correct. Mendelssohn's fascination with Bach dates back to other members of his own family before the time of his own birth.

Regards


Your poetic generalities, other than overlooking a few decades here and there*, do nothing in the way of explaining your remarkable promotion of Mendelsohn in other threads and also ommit my offered verse of Wieland's (and Mendelsohn's and Baskerville's) "Serafina"** as well as my call to identify her.

Mendelsohn is credited (or charged) with first publishing (1823?) your version of "a" Johann Sebastian Bach which you do a poor job in supporting through evidence however.

At least you are consistent in defending your threatened "other" agenda.

That's good!

Regards!

*Vienna and Rome were at the receiving end of a wide and well coordinated "globalist" attack, 1750-1815 (the period you always bypass), that ended at the expense of both (after "going thru" events in USA and France). My "hero" and ancestor, Cocchi or "Comte de Saint Germain" or "phantom of the opera" plus many other aliases including "Wieland" and "Friedmann Bach", was very much in charge of the attack but definitely not the sole "mastermind".

**Serafina Giuseppina Balsamo, "Count Cagliostro's" wife!

[yanni]

All I said was ..."Mendelsohn is credited (or charged) with first publishing (1823?) your version of "a" Johann Sebastian Bach which you do a poor job in supporting through evidence however. "

He actually introduced musicaly JSB to the public in 1823 and continued doing so for the rest of his life but that's beside the point and the subject, Robert and I am still waiting your "evidence" to counter my JS"Bach" discovery.

You either dispute it, with facts, or accept it , otherwise our conversation makes no sense.

Regards.

[Musicology]

Well, no Janni.

In fact J.N. Forkel had planned a detailed Bach biography from the early 1770's (50 years before Mendelssohn got involved) and carefully collected first-hand information on Bach for decades after that, publicly lecturing on the subject at the university of Gottingen and teaching it for years. His biography appeared in 1802, before Mendelssohn was even born. The works of Bach were available to some in Vienna. But they were dogmatically refused for public performance. By Mendelssohn's time the Bach revival had already begun when various projected collected editions of Bach's works were already under way. Felix Mendelssohn introduced Bach's music to the supposed 'public' who, until then, had chosen to be ignorant as had generations before them.

I do not understand what your 'Bach discovery' is ?

Our conversation makes sense if you agree the above is true. Mendelssohn did NOT introduce Bach's music. And there were generations of Bach musicians before J.S. Bach. To suggest he never existed, and to suggest he was 'influenced' by Cocchi begs the question of evidence and the nature of the 'influence'.

Do you have any ? And who were Cocchi's colleagues in this so-called 'attack' ? You do not tell us. That's not a conversation but an avoidance of questions.

The critics of Bach included (during his lifetime) people who clearly wished his music to go nowhere. It's there, Yanni, where you will find Cocchi. A real attack, carried out over decades of his career. Including all the devices of the counter-reformation. The usual scenarios.


Regards




All I said was ..."Mendelsohn is credited (or charged) with first publishing (1823?) your version of "a" Johann Sebastian Bach which you do a poor job in supporting through evidence however. "

He actually introduced musicaly JSB to the public in 1823 and continued doing so for the rest of his life but that's beside the point and the subject, Robert and I am still waiting your "evidence" to counter my JS"Bach" discovery.

You either dispute it, with facts, or accept it , otherwise our conversation makes no sense.

Regards.

[yanni]

My "discovery" centers on nonsensical rubbish on "Bach" in general-deriving from Britanica and Grove mainly (original source "W.F.Bach-Wieland" however)- and on the Koch identities of JS"Bach", Wilhelm Friedmann "Bach" and "Wieland", previously presented and explained in this thread (to everyone but you apparently.)

You may go on focusing your sights in Vienna forever while leaving developments in Lutheran Germany intact...

however

.. an excellent source fully confirms my "theories" (including the above aliases) putting moreover your Forkel's own identity in serious doubt:

http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Die_Musikalischen_Zeitschriften_seit_ihrer_Entsteh ung_bis_zur_Gegenwart

..and another (on 1774's Forkel exclusively):

http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Musikalisch-kritische_Bibliothek

(both "selfexplanatory", to me at least)


...and as for Cocchi-Bach-Bagge and his relations to Mendelsohn family: The question is not if Felix promoted or not Cocchi's ancestor, JSKoch, as from 1823 but how, when and from whom, did the Mendelsohns-long associates of various "Kochs-Bachs", one of them (Kochs) in particular serving as treasurer of the royal house of France in the meantime-got hold of a specific part of the family owned autographs (the religious part) to then promote Lutheran religion in Prussia (through Forkel getting his "Bach" info from Wieland/Friedman Koch) at the same time with "lexikon Koch" (who turned roman catholic in the meantime as "Wilhelm Friedman Bach") publishing his Lexicon.

First musicologists "Forkel" and "Koch" were, most propably, the same person.

and, btw, if you are unable to follow thru, raise the matter to someone else!

Good day.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I see you are ignoring my questions once again. What was the nature of the 'attack' ? Who were its chief representatives besides Cocchi ? You simply refuse to tell us.

And do you do now agree Bach's music was well known but not to the Holy Roman Empire before 1802, when J.N. Forkel published the first Bach biography - years before Mendelssohn was born ? Since no works of Bach were performed in Vienna for decades after Bach's death. That's just a plain fact.

I focus my sights on Vienna because of course the idols of the Viennese based musical industry (which rapidly expanded beyond national borders from around the time of the Congress of Vienna onwards) used Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven from the start, and at a time when nationalism was the main feature of society. The 'holy trinity' of the 'Vienna trio of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven'. The same Vienna who suffered from musical amnesia in forgetting the careers of virtually all Vienna based composers of the late 18th century ! Including Vanhal, Gazzaniga, Salieri, Sarti, Wranitsky, and literally dozens of other composers. Many of whom had staged successful operas in the Austrian capital itself only decades before. These were the same composers who, just a few decades before, were being hugely more performed in Vienna than Mozart or Haydn combined ! But who, today, are virtually ignored. This is proof positive of the manufacture of musical history. Fasely called. Achieved within a few decades of the 19th century. The cultural side of globalism, in fact.

The Mendelssohn's bought a series of Bach manuscripts in the early 19th century as already said. They had been on sale in Hamburg and elsewhere.

So Koch is now JN Forkel ? Wow !! Yet another alias.

Unless/until you can tell us about the 'attack' which Cocchi represented and the group to which he belonged, then, Cocchi becomes the most absurdly exaggerated superhero in western cultural history.

Why not tell us Yanni whom Cocchi was working for ? And why not agree a vast network existed across Europe of which the Cocchi clan were a part ? What network ? You never say.

And so we go round and round in circles.

Thanks



My "discovery" centers on nonsensical rubbish on "Bach" in general-deriving from Britanica and Grove mainly (original source "W.F.Bach-Wieland" however)- and on the Koch identities of JS"Bach", Wilhelm Friedmann "Bach" and "Wieland", previously presented and explained in this thread (to everyone but you apparently.)

You may go on focusing your sights in Vienna forever while leaving developments in Lutheran Germany intact...

however

.. an excellent source fully confirms my "theories" (including the above aliases) putting moreover your Forkel's own identity in serious doubt:

http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Die_Musikalischen_Zeitschriften_seit_ihrer_Entsteh ung_bis_zur_Gegenwart

...and as for Cocchi-Bach-Bagge and his relations to Mendelsohn family: The question is not if Felix promoted or not Cocchi's ancestor, JSKoch, as from 1823 but how, when and from whom, did the Mendelsohns-long associates of various "Kochs-Bachs", one in particular serving as treasurer of the royal house of France in the meantime-got hold of a specific part of the family owned autographs (the religious part) to then promote Lutheran religion in Prussia (through Forkel getting his "Bach" info from Wieland/Friedman Koch at the same time with "lexikon Koch" (turned roman catholic in the meantime as "Wilhelm Friedman Bach") publishing his Lexicon.

First musicologists "Forkel" and "Koch" were, most propably, the same person.

and, btw, if you are unable to follow thru, raise the matter to someone else!

Good day.

[yanni]

I'll answer all the questions you want, Robert, but you have to first answer mine, raised repeatedly some posts ago.

You may start with accepting as true or producing evidence to the contrary for:

My point was to prove that:

Johann Sebastian "Bach" was at least as "influenced" by Kochs as Mozart, Beethoven and Goethe were.

Relevant research then produced sufficient evidence leading to the conclusion that...

There never was a Johann Sebastian "Bach"...*

...followed by an obvious-and long justified already**- supplement, titled....

The cards manufacturer of Musicology's Tower

...supported nevertheless with even more evidence to identify once more the manufacturer, justify the title and bring down your (and every other musicologist's) tower of cards, including your last trump card, "JSBach"!

I normally don't enjoy spoiling other peoples dreams (or hidden agendas), mind you, but one should generally avoid false prophets, creators of illusions and sand castles...

..... and....

You are always wellcome to produce specific evidence to the contrary.... but no more theories, if you please!

BTW I just discovered "our" paths crossed in Queen Victoria's time.

Regards.


*but there is on record (put there however by "Wieland" ie "Rousseau" ie "Koch" etc etc ) a french speaking "abbe" Johann Sebastian "Koch" somehow involved in "early Bach's" musical tuition and "copying". "He", the phantom of the opera, was a liar for sure, but he insisted on leaving his mark behind. Then Mendelsohn took over and "Joseph Sebastian Bach" was creatively "improved" along with the rest of the greatest lie in human history!

**See http://www.online-literature.com/for...=46636&page=20 (post 280 and later on baron "Bagge"-Bach) and...
..... http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=877705 (post 2 and later)

(If you don't see the question marks, it's because I had the kindness not to put them where they really belong!)

[Musicology]

Yanni, there is a conspicuous absence of question marks in your questions. But this is exceeded by a conspicuous absence of answers to my questions.

Regards

[yanni]

just a spoonfull, Robert

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5IW9wK_HNg

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni,

And here is a handful !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx_XfNWkf_s

[yanni]

Keep up the good work, Robert and best of luck with your Manufacture of Mozart.

You might as well have picked Reicha instead, another wonderkid of the "block"!

As to your question: "Who was Cocchi working for?" I suggest you read http://www.holylandfree.org/Governo%20Mondiale%20Ebraico%2009%20-%20EBRAISMO%20E%20MASSONERIA.pdf which covers early 18th developments of "freemasonry" and includes also the "first italian mason", Dr. Antonio Cocchi.

Was Gioachino Cocchi his son or perhaps a distant moravian Koch nephew?

Whatever his family links to Antonio Cocchi were, he, Gioachino "Koch", served the Illuminati and their coinciding ultimate purposes of freemasonry(as described in re reference ie global supremacy and control by a particular race) all his life.

That's the conclusion from research carried out during our musical discussions.

Regards.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I think you will profit in your quest for the significance of the Cocchi clan by examining the role of Knights of Malta.

The following names in particular who headed that organisation -

Emmanuel Pinta de Fonseca (Castille, Leon, Portugal) till 1741
Franciscus Ximenes de Texada (Aragon) till 1773
Emmanuel Marie de Rohan-Polduc (France) till 1775
Ferdinand von Hompesch (Germany) till 1797

And the major role of those Knights of Malta (and the Hospitallers) within the careers of Haydn and Mozart.

So that Cocchi/France makes sense. But only within that context. A movement which prepared Europe for a secular society still under the control of the same Rome as before.

And here, on this freemasonic page the 'Protestant' queen of England as head of the Order. An order whose head is the papacy.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3qe6_QUOdmkJ:www.themasonictrowel.c om/Articles/History/orders_files/knights_of_malta/knights_of_malta.htm+dame+of+the+knights+of+malta+ queen+elizabeth&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk


Regards


No assumption at all, my dear count, just historical research (in the above mentioned "hard to crack scholarly pile", remember?).

Because Haydn was the same as Gluck and Durazzo, I already said that (and the fact that Francis Gentleman was dead in 1792 -but alive in 1784, ie was Gluck's associate-reconfirms it) didn't I?

Please support your disagreement with facts -even musicological studies/interpretations if that's all you have- this time!

Because music similarities between Koch, Gluck etc and Haydn'Beethoven'Mozart abound, some already quoted above!

Unless your disagreement focuses on the particular Orpheo pastichio perfomance only, "by several composers including Reeves", nevertheless still under "composer Gluck" as per title.

[yanni]

My conclusion stands "as is" in post 145 above, the Cochin-Caussin/France, Cocceji-Koch/Prussia, Cocchi/England revelations reconfirming to the letter conclusions by http://www.holylandfree.org/Governo%...MASSONERIA.pdf.

If you wish to dispute me please produce evidence to the contrary. (I'll be more than happy if you do btw)!

Malta's geographical significance and political importance declined in parallel with Venice and was as such irrelevant (18th cent) when compared to France, Prussia, England and Austria.

Regards.

[Musicology]

Yes, but we are not, of course, talking about Malta, the island. We are talking about something very different. The Knights of Malta and the Hospitallers have very little to do with Malta, except for the fact that the Knights of Malta were founded there. The same Knights of Malta whose history is freely accessible and which was of huge importance during the days of the British Empire.

Nobody is 'disputing' you. The facts are plain. Both 'Protestant' Britain and 'Protestant' Holland are today ruled by queens who are members of the Knights of Malta, an organisation whose head is the papacy. The fact too is that the Dutch East India Company and the British East India Company were founded with Venetian assistance. The fact that the fraternities which were associated with Haydn and Mozart were closely connected to the elites of England even during the Cocchi time. The fact that the Hospitallers were closely associated with the careers of Haydn and Mozart. The fact that G. Cocchi and other Cocchis were associated with these fraternities.

We are not discussing here individual nations but whole empires. Of globalism, in fact.

Cocchi was part of that system. Of course he was. The system which you vaguely attribute to 'French diplomacy' but which, in plain fact, was the start of 'enlightenment' control of the performing arts, of entire nations. etc.



My conclusion stands "as is" in post 145 above, the Cochin-Caussin/France, Cocceji-Koch/Prussia, Cocchi/England revelations reconfirming to the letter conclusions by http://www.holylandfree.org/Governo%...MASSONERIA.pdf.

If you wish to dispute me please produce evidence to the contrary. (I'll be more than happy if you do btw)!

Malta's geographical significance and political importance declined in parallel with Venice and was as such irrelevant (18th cent) when compared to France, Prussia, England and Austria.

Regards.

[Musicology]

Clear proof that Antonio Cocchi (closely connected to the British elites) was a Freemason. So too G. Cocchi (for years in England and closely associated with the career of Mozart during his visit to England).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fymMZaAgBVsJ:www.freemasonrytoday.c om/10/p08.php+COCCHI+FRATERNITY+1780&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Modern Freemasonry, the speculative English Freemasonry of Anderson and Desaguliers, reached Italy around 1729 when an English Duke, Charles Sackeville Duke of Middlesex, founded a lodge in Florence together with some Englishmen living there, such as Horace Mann, along with the poet Tommaso Crudeli, the first ‘martyr’ of Italian Freemasonry. In that same year, Thomas Howard, eighth Duke of Norfolk and a prominent mason, spent a long time in Italy and visited Venice and Florence. Members of the lodge in Florence also included Antonio Cocchi, personal physician to Teophilus Hastings, Earl of Huntingdon, and the Abbot Antonio Niccolini, erudite patron of art and literature, renowned for his library and on friendly terms with the Prince of Wales and Horace Walpole. Then there was Antonio Conti, from Padua, (who had met Desaguliers and Newton in England), as well as the Duke of Montague and the ‘Chevalier’ Ramsay who was showing Venice to Montesquieu, then not a Freemason but surely not indifferent to Freemasonry. Francesco Algarotti and Scipione Maffei were two other prominent citizens of the Republic of Venice who were in contact with London, the Royal Society and the masonic circles of England and France; according to Montesquieu, Maffei was one of the founders of a lodge in Verona.

(Note - Horace Mann whose estate near Canterbury in Kent was visited by father and young son Mozart for several days at the end of their English stay).

[yanni]

You are now skipping two centuries to draw conclusions from the present "equilibrium", suggesting even that "freely accessible history" should be taken for granted.

Malta only became part of the British Empire at the turn of the 18th-19th century(it was Bourbon controlled for the better part of the 18th) and we (I at least) trace the roots of "globalism" in the pre 1750's.

Indeed I have been attributing "it" to french diplomacy and I was wrong:

Cocchi-Koch's major diplomatic achievements was the liberation of "West Indies" and the creation of a greater Germany at the expense of France, Poland and the Holy Empire, he was propably financed by the Salomons and the Mendelsohns and assisted by Britain's first ever "reformist" regent.

An ideal "fiddler on the roof", he succeeded in all his goals and more but....

...it's his music that I don't like.

Regards.



Yes, but we are not, of course, talking about Malta, the island. We are talking about something very different. The Knights of Malta and the Hospitallers have very little to do with Malta, except for the fact that the Knights of Malta were founded there. The same Knights of Malta whose history is freely accessible and which was of huge importance during the days of the British Empire.

Nobody is 'disputing' you. The facts are plain. Both 'Protestant' Britain and 'Protestant' Holland are today ruled by queens who are members of the Knights of Malta, an organisation whose head is the papacy. The fact too is that the Dutch East India Company and the British East India Company were founded with Venetian assistance. The fact that the fraternities which were associated with Haydn and Mozart were closely connected to the elites of England even during the Cocchi time. The fact that the Hospitallers were closely associated with the careers of Haydn and Mozart. The fact that G. Cocchi and other Cocchis were associated with these fraternities.

We are not discussing here individual nations but whole empires. Of globalism, in fact.

Cocchi was part of that system. Of course he was. The system which you vaguely attribute to 'French diplomacy' but which, in plain fact, was the start of 'enlightenment' control of the performing arts, of entire nations. etc.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I am saying the various Cocchi's to whom you are refering were part of a network. As so often said here. That network consisted of a fraternity. It involved members of the Freemasons, the Knights of Malta, the Hospitallers and various others involved in the cultural movement known (eventually) as the 'enlightenment'. A movement which emerged from the Counter-Reformation and which had begun centuries before, shortly after the alliance made between Venice and the newly founded Jesuit Order. Out of that alliance came creation of the British Empire on the model of earlier Venice (complete with its slave trading and banking system) and out of this movement developed Freemasonry, later (in its British form) exported to continental Europe, then the Illuminatists, and globalism.

The globalist system required global heroes. Nowhere more clearly than in the idea of 'Vienna, city of music'. And these, in the cultural/musical sphere include the giant heroes of the Viennese classical period. Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. Whose careers and musical reputations were constructed in the late 18th and early 19th century - exported ever since and towering over the actual history of music - together with the repeated rewriting of musical history by the same music industry. The whole story of this 'control' hardly discussed in textbooks. And thus, as early as 1814, the works of 'Mozart' already dominated the early concerts of orchestras such as the London Philharmonia in London. 'Vienna, city of music' emerged out of this same period over the decades. And this involved the time and talents of many musicians whose names are today hardly known. Amongst them in its earlier stages was G. Cocchi (whose name was already on a list of people to meet when the Mozart's arrived in London). Cocchi (and other members of his same family) were already associates of ruling elites in England as already said. Part of the same huge movement. Out of which, eventually, came the European Union, and other globalist culture. That took time because the main feature of the early 19th century was of course newly found nationalism. So those decades were used to develop the musical super-heroes of Vienna.


You are now skipping two centuries to draw conclusions from the present "equilibrium", suggesting even that "freely accessible history" should be taken for granted.

Malta only became part of the British Empire at the turn of the 18th-19th century(it was Bourbon controlled for the better part of the 18th) and we (I at least) trace the roots of "globalism" in the pre 1750's.

Indeed I have been attributing "it" to french diplomacy and I was wrong:

Cocchi-Koch's major diplomatic achievements was the liberation of "West Indies" and the creation of a greater Germany at the expense of France, Poland and the Holy Empire, he was propably financed by the Salomons and the Mendelsohns and assisted by Britain's first ever "reformist" regent.

An ideal "fiddler on the roof", he succeeded in all his goals and more but....

...it's his music that I don't like.

Regards.

[yanni]

The term "counter reformation" you have been using is ambiguous, a protestant designed term to confuse the issue of Henry VIII's separation of the Church of England from Rome.

Roman Catholics don't use it , their term for the Council of Trent onwards period is "Catholic Reformation" or "Catholic Revival"!

Anyhow, your "British Empire" came to existence during Henry VIII's reign, if not before, and you have yet to produce evidence of an "alliance between Venice and the newly founded Jesuit order" existing at the time and/or having anything to do with heavily indebted Henry.Rome and their Jesuits were in fact his enemies (promoting the Stuarts for the next two and a half centuries).

The birth (or rebirth if you like) of Freemasonry follows the Medici collapse(1700's)* and "liberal" Florence's takeover by "Holy" Austria, develops then in parallel to the strengthening of Florence's british colony** and matures with the appointment of Samuel Cocceji-Koch as Prussia's chancellor in 1732 (his obvious relative, Antonio Cocchi, an earlier friend of Isaac Newton, initiated in Fl. 1734). Then comes "french enlightment",1745's (Saint Germain/Rousseau/A.H.Cochin's London&Paris arrival)

ie

"enlightment" came via Prussia &"colonised" Florence to Paris, the process covered up eversince through relative "research" institutes and societies all over!

So, no, I don't agree with what you write and my conclusions on the "Illuminati" and their "french Enlightment" remain firm!

Malta only became part of the British Empire at the turn of the 18th-19th century(it was Bourbon controlled for the better part of the 18th) and we (I at least) trace the roots of "globalism" in the pre 1750's.

Indeed I have been attributing "it" to french diplomacy and I was wrong:

(Gioachino) Cocchi-Koch's major diplomatic achievements were the liberation of "West Indies" and the creation of a greater Germany at the expense of France, Poland and the Holy Empire, he was propably financed by the Salomons and the Mendelsohns and assisted by Britain's first ever "reformist" regent.

An ideal "fiddler on the roof", he succeeded in all his goals and more but....

...it's his music that I don't like.

And that's final***!

Regards

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Heinrich und Samuel von Cocceji: "Dissertatio de principio Juris naturae unico, vero et adequato", Frankfurt/O 1699. Wiki: Heinrich Freiherr von Cocceji (March 25, 1644 – August 18, 1719) was a German jurist from Bremen. He studied in Leiden and Oxford and was appointed professor of law at Heidelberg (1672) and in Utrecht (1688). Named Geheimrat and marquis, he became ordinary professor in the faculty of law at Frankfurt (Oder), where he later died.

**For earlier links see "Sir Robert Dudley, (7 August 1574 – 6 September 1649), engineer, sailor and cartographer" and his relations to the Medicis and their "Cocchini printers" in Florence.

***"Final" until the little matter of the identities mix-up between the two "Labordes" is settled:
Laborde, qui l'avait rencontré en 1781 à Strasbourg, fait de l'illustre fumiste Cagliostro un éloge enthousiaste en 1783 dans ses Lettres sur la Suisse.Pendant son séjour à Paris (raccourci par l'affaire du Collier), en 1785, Cagliostro y installa son Rite Egyptien auquel adhérèrent notamment, selon Chevallier dans son Histoire de la Franc-maçonnerie française (Fayard, 1974), le duc de Luxembourg et "le fermier général Laborde" qui en formèrent un Suprême Conseil. Selon le Dictionnaire de la Franc-maçonnerie (PUF) de Ligou, à l'article Cagliostro, le poste de Grand Inspecteur y aurait été occupé par Jean-Bernard de Laborde, mais il s'agit probablement d'un lapsus, le seul homonyme quelque peu connu de Jean-Benjamin à l'époque ayant été Jean-Joseph de la Borde, également financier, également guillotiné, mais sans lien de parenté (et dont rien n'indique à notre connaissance qu'il ait été maçon).

[Musicology]

No problem Yanni. You believe what you want. I will support this view elsewhere by many evidences.

Regards



The term "counter reformation" you have been using is ambiguous, a protestant designed term to confuse the issue of Henry VIII's separation of the Church of England from Rome.

Roman Catholics don't use it , their term for the Council of Trent onwards period is "Catholic Reformation" or "Catholic Revival"!

Anyhow, your "British Empire" came to existence during Henry VIII's reign, if not before, and you have yet to produce evidence of an "alliance between Venice and the newly founded Jesuit order" existing at the time and/or having anything to do with heavily indebted Henry.Rome and their Jesuits were in fact his enemies (promoting the Stuarts for the next two and a half centuries).

The birth (or rebirth if you like) of Freemasonry follows the Medici collapse(1700's)* and "liberal" Florence's takeover by "Holy" Austria, develops then in parallel to the strengthening of Florence's british colony** and matures with the appointment of Samuel Cocceji-Koch as Prussia's chancellor in 1732 (his obvious relative, Antonio Cocchi, an earlier friend of Isaac Newton, initiated in Fl. 1734). Then comes "french enlightment",1745's (Saint Germain/Rousseau/A.H.Cochin's London&Paris arrival)

ie

"enlightment" came via Prussia &"colonised" Florence to Paris, the process covered up eversince through relative "research" institutes and societies all over!

So, no, I don't agree with what you write and my conclusions on the "Illuminati" and their "french Enlightment" remain firm!

Malta only became part of the British Empire at the turn of the 18th-19th century(it was Bourbon controlled for the better part of the 18th) and we (I at least) trace the roots of "globalism" in the pre 1750's.

Indeed I have been attributing "it" to french diplomacy and I was wrong:

(Gioachino) Cocchi-Koch's major diplomatic achievements were the liberation of "West Indies" and the creation of a greater Germany at the expense of France, Poland and the Holy Empire, he was propably financed by the Salomons and the Mendelsohns and assisted by Britain's first ever "reformist" regent.

An ideal "fiddler on the roof", he succeeded in all his goals and more but....

...it's his music that I don't like.

And that's final***!

Regards

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Heinrich und Samuel von Cocceji: "Dissertatio de principio Juris naturae unico, vero et adequato", Frankfurt/O 1699. Wiki: Heinrich Freiherr von Cocceji (March 25, 1644 – August 18, 1719) was a German jurist from Bremen. He studied in Leiden and Oxford and was appointed professor of law at Heidelberg (1672) and in Utrecht (1688). Named Geheimrat and marquis, he became ordinary professor in the faculty of law at Frankfurt (Oder), where he later died.

**For earlier links see "Sir Robert Dudley, (7 August 1574 – 6 September 1649), engineer, sailor and cartographer" and his relations to the Medicis and their "Cocchini printers" in Florence.

***"Final" until the little matter of the identities mix-up between the two "Labordes" is settled:
Laborde, qui l'avait rencontré en 1781 à Strasbourg, fait de l'illustre fumiste Cagliostro un éloge enthousiaste en 1783 dans ses Lettres sur la Suisse.Pendant son séjour à Paris (raccourci par l'affaire du Collier), en 1785, Cagliostro y installa son Rite Egyptien auquel adhérèrent notamment, selon Chevallier dans son Histoire de la Franc-maçonnerie française (Fayard, 1974), le duc de Luxembourg et "le fermier général Laborde" qui en formèrent un Suprême Conseil. Selon le Dictionnaire de la Franc-maçonnerie (PUF) de Ligou, à l'article Cagliostro, le poste de Grand Inspecteur y aurait été occupé par Jean-Bernard de Laborde, mais il s'agit probablement d'un lapsus, le seul homonyme quelque peu connu de Jean-Benjamin à l'époque ayant été Jean-Joseph de la Borde, également financier, également guillotiné, mais sans lien de parenté (et dont rien n'indique à notre connaissance qu'il ait été maçon).

[yanni]

A strange change of attitude that might be seen as "not the best of manners" by our hosts, spoiled as they are by your ample previous presentations of "facts".

Still, thanking you for your participation, please remember in your future endeavours a "Cassanea de Mondonville" whose music bears peculiar similarities to J.S.Bach's and whose name reveals Casanova's "globalism"*!

Adieu!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Cassanea = Casa (house)+Nea (new in grk) ie has the same meaning as "Casanova" (itln). Mondo=World(itln)+"on Ville"=town(frn) ie "global village or town".
The double s of "Cassanea":the mark of the bearer wishing to reveal or declare his "Cassini" roots.

and, if still not convinced...

Zie voor deze indeling o.a. H. Faulenbach, 'Johannes Coccejus' in; M. Greschat, Orthodoxie und Pietismus, Stuttgart 1982, p. 163-176. Voor het conflict over de sabbat en de kwestie van de 'paresis' en 'aphesis', zie W.J. van Asselt, 'Voetius en Coccejus over de rechtvaardiging', in: J. van Oort e.a. (red.), De onbekende Voetius. Voordrachten wetenschappelijk symposium Utrecht 3 maart 1989, Kampen 1989, p.32-47. Hier vindt men ook de belangrijkste literatuur vermeld over deze kwesties. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Coccejus


No problem Yanni. You believe what you want. I will support this view elsewhere by many evidences.

Regards

[yanni]

The select few readers of this thread are advised that "works" will soon be reassumed, possibly in the form of a monologue, aiming to provide answers to all outstanding questions of 18th century classical music composers, their true identities and their undoubtable "Koch" influence.
With regard to their intent, no more needs be said!

[yanni]

Even if my "all aliases" mastertimeline has in the meantime been almost completed*and is looking very promising, today's discovery of Buchenwald's Kochs (from Darmstadt)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Otto_Koch makes completion of this thread a superfluous waste of time and a nightmare as well.

My curiosity thus satiated to exhaustion, I terminate my writing.

Thank you for reading me and....

...thank me for not publishing my conclusions!

"Yanni".

*pending input only from http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_von_Koch a protestant family very much involved in the whole "manufacturing matter". With strong links to Darmstadt.

[yanni]

Continue with "The puzzle of the socalled Bach Variations" at

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=917997

(reconfirmng Saint Germain's Cocchi-Koch identity and providing concrete evidence of his controlling influence on JS"Bach" as well)