1984 general discussion

[hurdler]

Part 2:

Julia was in some ways a disappointment for me, since she has no desire to try to overthrow the government nor understand how it works beyond what she needs to survive. Of course, she is to some degree as good as people come if they are born into the Party. Ironically, although Winston has good morals and hopes and dreams on how to overthrow the government, he does not deal with society nearly as well as Julia does. He lets Julia take the initiative in planning how they will meet each time, which is a tough job since they must arrive in different ways and different times and leave similarly. He also cannot get a hold of black market things such as coffee, but Julia manages to bring such forbidden pleasures to their meetings.

I am a little confused on how Winston's dreams can predict the future, such as the Golden Country and O'Brien's statement. What is the purpose of this, other than the obvious foreshadowing?

Part 3:

I felt that the ending was more depressing than most other dystopian novels, where there are ambiguous endings with a feeling of hope.

I was also a bit confused on how O'Brien knew of Winston's dreams. His intelligence allowing to predict what is on Winston's mind after the torture is believable, but I was not sure if the government could plant dreams into the minds of people.

Also, I find it hard to believe that no one regretted their actions after Room 101 and felt genuine guilt and shame for the loved ones they betrayed, since torture does not come close as a substitute for natural betrayal. Feelings in times of torture are completely distinct from real feelings. What if Winston and/or Julia had still loved each other afterwards? I suppose it is hard for me to understand the actual mental repercussions of prolonged torture, but Winston did not seem like the type of person to totally change after one incident in room 101, especially since he resisted O'Brien's other attempts for so long.

[Ashbe Maeur]

Part 2:

Julia was in some ways a disappointment for me, since she has no desire to try to overthrow the government nor understand how it works beyond what she needs to survive. Of course, she is to some degree as good as people come if they are born into the Party. Ironically, although Winston has good morals and hopes and dreams on how to overthrow the government, he does not deal with society nearly as well as Julia does. He lets Julia take the initiative in planning how they will meet each time, which is a tough job since they must arrive in different ways and different times and leave similarly. He also cannot get a hold of black market things such as coffee, but Julia manages to bring such forbidden pleasures to their meetings.

I am a little confused on how Winston's dreams can predict the future, such as the Golden Country and O'Brien's statement. What is the purpose of this, other than the obvious foreshadowing?




I think Julia is 'the way she is' because, unlike Winston, her entire life has been set within the revolution. She knows nothing else, while Winston knows, that at some point - he knew a time much different than the now. Julia accepts that the hope of changing things for posterity is foolish, and she'd rather live for the moment.

As for the purpose of his dreams other than forshadowing, I think they give us a little break from Winston's fatalism. We see him have sort of hope. These are really the only times we see this is in him, even from the moment he first sets pen to paper in his diary he already knows he's dead.

[HoOkEdOnReAdInG]

Part 2:

I think that it is very ironic how the person Winston fears the most becomes the person he falls in love with. Julia is able to manipulate the dystopian society but does not exercise her power of it to its fullest capability such as starting a rebellion to overthrow Big Brother. Winston wants to overthrow Big Brother but does not have the skills or knowledge to. Julia only wants pleasure for herself by defying Big Brother's "laws" and although she has the power, she does not have the motivation or will. Winston and Julia complete each other in this manner. I think that is the reason they "fall in love." It annoys me that it is highly likely that Winston and Julia are not actually in love. Julia tells Winston that she has sex with Party members to get favors and manipulate them but Winston seems fine with the fact that she might be manipulating him. Winston seems to have a very good sixth sense. He correctly dreamed/predicted about his affair with Julia, Syme's disappearance, 2+2=5, and his trip to the Ministry of Love for visiting Mr. O'Brien. Julia also seems to have somewhat of a sixth sense. She predicts that she will clean the painting of St. Clement's Church and that there are probably "bugs" behind it. Julia and Winston seem unhuman because of the dystopia's effect, but attempt to be human. They seem like they are following a predestined path, which they cannot alter no matter their intentions or desires.

Part 3:

I think that "the place where there is no darkness" is very ironic because Winston believed the common belief that light is good and darkness is evil. However, it turns out that in 1984's dystopian society, darkness is actually good and light is actually evil. Darkness allows the rebels to hide fro the Party but the Party can use light to discover rebels and portrays itself as the light. During Winston's interrogation by O'Brien, Winston seems like a coward who afraid of pain. Although Winston begins believing O'Brien's lies, he cannot hide his true feelings of rebellion, which ultimately leads to his "death." Winston may have had good intentions, but is weak because he cannot endure anything ordeal. At the end of the book, Winston finds sex repulsive, which is seen as the biggest act of rebellion, and believes that he has won a victory and when he was completely defeated. This shows Winston's complete conversion and acceptance of Big Brother. It bothers me that Winston has big ideas but a weak heart possibly due to the Big Brother's influences.

[mummu:)]

Talking about truth and love as both apply to Big Brother and Winston and Julia, I think it's just very relatable and similar to The Handmaid's Tale.
Big Brother's definition of truth is his truth-a fake truth. Big Brother is never wrong. Winston's job is to re-write, create, and destroy papers and articles in every way to make sure Big Brother is always correct. This is not only a fake truth, but it also de-humanizes the lives of the comrades living amongst the Party and this government. Everyday, they comrades live by obeying and believing everything associated with and said by Big Brother. They are all living in a world of lies and of complete control. I think this is such a crazy society to live in. Once discussing in class, we had talked about how the people who fit best in the society are those that don't think and tend to be fat and short. And I began thinking to myself, obviously, the pros of this society would be that the government would have total power, but why total power over people who are idle, ignorant, useless, and physically unattractive? What's the point in that? The governments in Handmaid's and 1984 hide the truth from the society and reveal that they know everything and have power and control over society.
Winston's truth is, of course, the actual truth. I don't know if I am understanding this correctly, but it seems that Winston has the dreams/visions that replay the past and foreshadow the future. These memories are the real truths, but the government instills in its society that these are false memories in order to rid the society of free thinking. Winston's truth is not explicitly discovered by him as true truth.
As for Julia, I believe Julia is just a typical teenager. She only cares about the present and living for the moment. She is indifferent about the past and future because the past cannot be changed and the future is based off the present, therefore she wants to have a good time in the present. With this attitude, Julia is apathetic towards looking deeply into truth and its relation to the Party.
Love for Big Brother should be banned. Like Handmaid's Tale, the governments want to rid the society of feelings and emotions so that the government has the ability to control. Human emotions and feelings are extremely significant because it is what defines a human and by getting rid of them, the government is able to shape the society into whatever it wants.
Like Offred, Winson and Julia find out that they are love-deprived. Stripping the world of love is such an impacting action because human existence and life share a basis relating to love. I find it so interesting how love is a common factor in most dystopian literature. It's such a powerful and dynamic factor in general human life that when used in dystopian literature, it's so interesting to discover what the author is trying to say about our modern-day society. And on love, I believe Orwell and Atwood share that love is one of the most dynamic factors in human life and that without it, a majority of existence is destroyed.

[Ashbe Maeur]

It bothers me that Winston has big ideas but a weak heart possibly due to the Big Brother's influences.

I don't think Winston has a weak heart at all. O'Brien says it himself that Winston is a "tough case," while it's Julia that he comments came over very easily.

I think most anyone can be broken down under the extreme torture, over the course of months, that Winston endured.

[hurdler]

Winston's truth is, of course, the actual truth. I don't know if I am understanding this correctly, but it seems that Winston has the dreams/visions that replay the past and foreshadow the future. These memories are the real truths, but the government instills in its society that these are false memories in order to rid the society of free thinking. Winston's truth is not explicitly discovered by him as true truth.

Well, no one really knows for sure what is the "true truth" about anything in the world. Winston's beliefs are grounded quite firmly in his head, as seen when he refuses to give in to the torture even after months, and such a strong belief is good enough for anyone. Truth is in some ways a hard concept to define, since what is true to some is not necessarily true to others. Even 2+2=4, along with the rest of mathematics, is a human creation to some degree, since we are the vessels for having the idea and the ones who gave a name to the idea, which as seen in this book is very important. For some, the meaning of life may be discovering as much "truths" there are in the world as possible, while for others the meaning of life is just to enjoy it to the fullest, regardless of what is or is not "true." Of course, Winston falls in the first category, and Julia falls in the second.



Like Offred, Winson and Julia find out that they are love-deprived. Stripping the world of love is such an impacting action because human existence and life share a basis relating to love. I find it so interesting how love is a common factor in most dystopian literature. It's such a powerful and dynamic factor in general human life that when used in dystopian literature, it's so interesting to discover what the author is trying to say about our modern-day society. And on love, I believe Orwell and Atwood share that love is one of the most dynamic factors in human life and that without it, a majority of existence is destroyed.

Yes if you feel that you cannot help or touch the lives of anyone else, and/or if no one else shows any love or concern to you, then there is no point in living. Human society is based on showing reciprocal support and love to others. The government in 1984 distorts this love for a fellow person into love for the Party in power and its supposedly correct ideals.
A lack of love is a big part of the lack of freedom. There is almost no freedom at all in 1984. Everything Winston does has to be done with careful thought given to what could the government construe of this? Is this against the Party ideals? He must be careful to never betray his true feelings on his face for even a split second for fear of a hidden camera catching him. He cannot even take home a harmless strip of paper from his work, or place it somewhere else other than the incinerator, since the government does not want any degree of freedom of choice. He is constantly watched like everyone else by telescreens, hidden microphones and cameras, and people who might turn him in to the government. No one can have even the slightest degree of inner peace since even your best friend or family may turn you in. If you are not participating in community hikes, then you are involved in some other group activity where others can constantly monitor your behavior, and your presence and ability to monitor others can instill fear in the other people. One hour alone just doing nothing can be construed and thoughtcrime.
Freedom can be defined as the ability to do what one wants without the fear of punishment by others who happen to disagree. But this definition seems to be lacking a bit. No one can do what they want to do, unless they actually believe in the ideals of the government, such as Parsons. But can we call Parsons free? So maybe freedom should be extended to freedom of ideas and thought, and in fact, this is definitely a much more important freedom than freedom of actions. In the end of the book, Winston and Julia can do whatever they want, but they lack a coherent mind for doing anything other than the government’s wishes that they are unable to. This shift from a small degree of free thought to absolutely no free thought and completely free actions is a huge downfall for the characters.

[mummu:)]

Oh. Had I said Winston had a weak heart? Sorry, I just can't remember.

[mummu:)]

Oh wait. Nevermind. Sorry!