Poetry Reading Group Redux- Nominations [Archive] - Page 2

Quark

03-21-2010, 08:58 PM

Okay, I finally sat down and read the poem today. It's a good one. Much appreciation to quasi for picking. There's quite a bit to write on this one, so I'm going to break this into three posts. First, I want to say something about the biblical/classical resonances of the first half of the poem, and how they create a pretty common chronology of youth to old age and death. Then, something should be said about how that usual timeline is challenged in the second half of the poem. Also, something should be said about why the second half of the poem focuses on just boys and men. The first half encompassed both genders, but the second part of the poem shifts toward just one. I'll start with the first part of the poem, though, and I'll see how far I get.

The juxtaposition of age and youth in writing goes back to the classics. The Greeks and Romans were obsessed with assigning attributes to the young and old. Aristotle, Lucretius, and Horace are just three authors who come to mind, and they each point to the profligacy and joy of youth as well as the reflectiveness and caution of old age. Much in the first half of "Saturday in the Village" could have come straight out of Horace's Epistles or the Ars Poetica. Here's just a piece of the Ars Poetica:

The lad who can answer now, and set a firm foot
To the ground, likes to play with his peers, loses but
Quickly regains his temper, and alters with the hour.
The beardless youth, free of tutors at last, delights
In horse and hound, and the turf of the sunlit Campus,
He’s wax malleable for sin, rude to his advisors,
Slow in making provision, lavish with money,
Spirited, passionate, and swift to change his whim.
Manhood’s years and thoughts, with altering interests,
Seek wealth and friendship, devoted to preferment,
Wary of doing what they may soon labour to change.
Many troubles surround the aged man, because he
Seeks savings, yet sadly won’t touch them, fears their use,
And because in all he does he’s cold and timid,
Dilatory, short on hope, sluggish, greedy for life,
Surly, a moaner, given to praising the years when
He was a boy, chiding and criticising the young.
The advancing years bring many blessings with them,
Many, departing, they take away.

The bold was added. Horace is cautioning playwrights and poets to give the right characteristics to old and young characters. Each group has its own habits, and Horace suggests that no one will care for your literature if you can't understand that. In the first half of "Saturday in the Village" Leopardi takes Horace's advice and writes girls and boys as carelees, pleasure-seeking youths: "A flock of boys makes a happy racket" and the girls dress up for dancing and socializing. Meanwhile, the elderly wait on their porches or work their jobs, while reflecting on pleasure in the past or enjoying smaller, quieter pleasures. Everyone is obeying classical rules.

Soon, though, the young will become old, and the old will die. Time and death are also very present in the first half of the poem. The sun is setting in the poem's first line. Already, we start with an image of decline and the temporal. Our first character, the girl, arrives "With an armful of fresh grass." This is a line with many resonances. In the Bible grass can stand for the changeable nature of sublunary things. For example, in Isiah the word of God is contrasted to the physical world: "All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field." This "flesh is grass" metaphor seems to carry over into "Saturday in the Village." The "fresh grass" reminds us of young "flesh." It also reminds us that the grass and flesh will eventually wither and die. In theological terms this is a call to abandon the earthly and accept the divine. The passage from Isiah ends with "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." The first half of Leopardi's poem takes us through earthly enjoyments (represented by the girls and boys) through a sour old age (defined by classical writers) and end with death--where, if one's following the usual Christian theology, they are connected with God. The last word of the first section is "rest." The grown man is "Thinking about his day of rest." By the nineteenth-century this was almost cliche. If you want a more drawn out retelling of this progression, read "The Four Ages" by Anne Bradstreet. She elaborates this idea with greater clarity.

The girl returning with "fresh grass" is also reminiscent of the mower poems by Marvell--as Paulem has pointed out. The mower poems replace the shepherds of classical pastorals with scythe-handling harvesters. Many of Marvell's mowers have two things: an amorous goal and a hyper-awareness of death. That's what so many of the poem are about. The mower represents to the reader how while we're mindlessly following our desires death is slowly creeping up on us. The mower is like the love-struck shepherds of the pastorals, but, at the same time, his harvesting of grass is like how death will eventually harvest us. This is a connection made easier for readers of classical mythology, as Chronos and Saturn are frequently portrayed with scythes. In fact, Father Time (a figure that derives from those Greek and Roman gods) is frequently portrayed scythe-bearing. You can see him wielding his scythe in some of Hogarth's famous works:

http://freepages.family.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~londonaye/images/graham_children.jpg
Hogarth's Portrait: The Graham Children

In the upper left is a clock with Father Time holding up a scythe. This is a pretty common connection (harvesting with death), and Leopardi may be employing it here in this poem. I doubt he was reading much Marvell or staring at Hogarth's portraits, but this idea goes back to antiquity. I used examples from English art for illustration simply because I'm just more familiar with English variants of this connection.

I'm going to have to speed things up now because I find I'm only three lines into the poem, and I want to get to the end of the first section. I'll skip a little here and focus just on the death imagery and allusions. So when Leopardi introduces the old ladies, this quickly brings up the idea of death. The sky and landscape take on corpse-like colors: "The sky turns deep blue, shadows/ Stretch from the hills and tilting roofs/In the blanched light of the rising moon." Suddenly, everything is deep blue and pale white. The shadows have crept up, as well--indicating passage of time like a sundial. Shadow also has a great deal of biblical resonance. Frequently, the Bible refers to the "shadow of death." In Job, Isiah, Mark, Luke, and the Psalm the phrase appears. I think that Leopardi has moved from the young to the old and finally on to the dead. He's taken us through a very classical and biblical lifecycle where mankind starts as a careless, pleasure-seeking youth, travels through reflective, industrious middle age, and ends in divine "rest."

Interesting, though, the poem does not end there. The second part (everything after "Thinking about his day of rest") throws this all into the air. There's an awareness in the following lines that life might not follow classical and biblical precedent--even if everyone strains to meet that ideal. We see the carpenter working furiously to finish a job late at night. The poet forecasts a melancholy day rather than a blessed one, and councils the boys that Sunday may not come on time. Leopardi challenges the established chronology that the literary tradition had promised everyone.
I'll explain better what I mean in the next post.

Virgil

03-21-2010, 09:10 PM

First, I want to say something about the biblical/classical resonances of the first half of the poem, and how they create a pretty common chronology of youth to old age and death. Then, something should be said about how that usual timeline is challenged in the second half of the poem....The juxtaposition of age and youth in writing goes back to the classics. The Greeks and Romans were obsessed with assigning attributes to the young and old. Aristotle, Lucretius, and Horace are just three authors who come to mind, and they each point to the profligacy and joy of youth as well as the reflectiveness and caution of old age. Much in the first half of "Saturday in the Village" could have come straight out of Horace's Epistles or the Ars Poetica. Here's just a piece of the Ars Poetica:

Weren't you the one arguing that Leopardi wasn't a classicist? :wink5:

I enjoyed your post Quark. I hadn't thought about the cut grass as a result of the scythe, which would definitely signal death. I think Paul is defintely right to point out that the core of this poem is about death.

Quark

03-22-2010, 02:08 PM

Weren't you the one arguing that Leopardi wasn't a classicist? :wink5:

What I'm calling the first half of the poem (lines 1-30 in the Grennan translation) is very classical. As I was saying before, though, the second half of the poem seems to challenge the first half. The assumption that life perfectly follows biblical/classical examples is called into question. I'll post more about that later. I still have to find a couple of things before I can spit out exactly what I mean.

In any case, I think we've talked the "Is he a neo-classicist?" question to death:

:beatdeadhorse5:

Yikes! The emoticon is a touch too graphic for me. I'm not even sure why we have it. The admin and mods have gone a little overboard with the smilies of late. (Although, an overboard emoticon would have really helped there.) Some of these little images are just baffling. Take this one: :auto:. What the hell is that? Maybe if I were decribing Ferris Bueler's Day Off that might come in handy, but otherwise it seems pretty strange.

LitNetIsGreat

03-22-2010, 03:05 PM

Some good insights into the poem Quark, my biblical knowledge is not that strong so I wouldn't have picked up on those. I also like the points about the scythe and the grass which I didn't see when I read it. I look forward to read the rest of your points. Beep beep: :driving:

Lynne50

03-22-2010, 04:17 PM

.) Some of these little images are just baffling. Take this one: :auto:. What the hell is that? Maybe if I were decribing Ferris Bueler's Day Off that might come in handy, but otherwise it seems pretty strange.

I noticed in the emoticon that the front wheel is turning but not the back. Does that imply "we're just spinning our wheels" Just a thought.

Paulclem

03-23-2010, 11:04 AM

Good post Quark. In the Nichols translation the Country Girl is referred to as carrying hay, so the biblical "flesh is grass" reference was less apparent. i think it is entirely plausible though.

At the moment I'm trying to reconcile the image of the crone spinning the story of her youth - similar to arachnae who was turned into the spider. Arachnae wove the infidelities of the gods, which may be a reference to the crone's stories of her youth. This seems to sit well with the imagery of death and the warning about youth in Quark's post. It reminds me of Donne too exhorting young men in his sermons, though of course this may be in the tradition that Quark refers to, rather than a direct link.

I can see the link to the young boys at the end of the poem - representing youthful boisterousness. Are they images of innocence befor they have the opportunity to spoil their spirituality?

Again just musing.

Quark

03-23-2010, 12:54 PM

Part 2/3

So, there's a second half to this poem. I talked a little about the biblical/classical tradition the first half of the poem (lines 1-30 in the Grennan translation) is working in before. Leopardi reminds readers of the classical life cycle (youth to old age) and a Christian notion of time (a changing world contrasted with an unchanging heaven which we strive for in life but can only reach at death). The poem reinforces these concepts of time and progress by paralleling them with natural progression--like the progression of the sun across the sky or the progression of Saturday into Sunday. The first half of the poem looks like something a seventeenth-century poet would have written.

The second half of the poem, however, challenges the assumptions made in the first half. The order established in the first half is broken. Lines 31-32 (Then, when every other light is out/ And there isn't another sound) give the impression that everyone has reached the "rest" spoken of at the end of the first half. That is, everything is as it should be. But, right after that, Leopardi notices something amiss:

You'll hear the carpenter's saw,
You'll hear his hammer
Banging from the shuttered shop,
Where, by lamplight, he sweats and strains
To finish a job before break of day. (32-37)

The bold is added again. Leopardi reminds readers that not everyone has gotten to rest. Some people are struggling to meet the ideal set up by classical/biblical precedent. The carpenter has to "sweat" and "strain" before his Sunday. This is a bit of break from the Bible--as God finished his six-day enterprise with a great deal more ease and grace. I don't remember God having to last-minute things. People, though, fall short of the ideal. Things don't work exactly as planned, and the biblical precedent is shown to be a promise that isn't always kept. Not only do people have stretch to try to obtain "rest," they also have a difficult time trying to live in classically-defined stages of life. The poem points out that everyone isn't thinking of the day they're in, but rather their thoughts stray to tomorrow. Saturday is filled with hope for Sunday, and Sunday is consumed by despair because of Monday. Horace, Lucretius, Ovid all taught that your current stage of life defines you. If you're young, you naturally act carelessly. If you're old, you're caution. The young act, and the old reflect. That's supposed to be life. Leopardi, though, contradicts the tradition, and shows that people don't live in their current stage of life. Instead, they're thinking about the next one. Those in Saturday think about Sunday, and those in Sunday think about Monday:

This one [Saturday] get this warmest welcome,
Full of hope, as it is, and joy.
Tomorrow the hours will be leaden
With emptiness and melancholy,
Everybody going back in his mind
To the daily grind. (39-44)

The questions now are "Why is the biblical/classical" tradition broken?" and "What are the effects of it breaking?" I think the first question has a very historical answer: the Enlightenment replaced sacred and classical history with natural science and secular history. The grand narratives of the ancients and the Bible no longer seemed to apply. Peter Brooks outlines this historical trend in Reading for the Plot--his influential study of narrative: "As Voltaire announced and then the Romantics confirmed, history replaces theology as the key discourse and central imagination." He goes on to argue that "The enormous narrative production of the nineteenth century may suggest an anxiety at the loss of providential plots: the plotting of the individual or social or institutional life story takes on new urgency when one no longer can look to a sacred masterplot that organizes and explains the world." Clearly, Brooks is reaching a bit here (he will eventually step back from these "sweeping generalizations"), but the point he's making about the loss of a "sacred masterplot" is quite accurate. The Enlightenment breaks from earlier traditions and establishes new rules for ordering one's life.

I think you see this happening across the continent in many art forms, too. Look at the change in France between Baroque and Rococo painting. The Baroque period stressed political and religious orthodoxy through classical and biblical allusion, but the later Rococo period freed art from its attachment to those "masterplots." Sometimes the change between periods is commented on in the painting themselves--as in Charles-Antoine Coypel's Painting Ejecting Thalia:

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd300/Quark3/thalia.jpg
Charles-Antoine Coypel: Painting Ejecting Thalia

Thalia is the Greek grace representing history. She was often depicted as assisting political leaders in Baroque art, but in this painting she's expelled by the painter. Similarly, in Leopardi's poem there's a break from the biblical and classical tradition. The old models of life--while not expelled--are certainly critiqued.

I think when we ask the question "What are the effects of it [the tradition] breaking?," though, we end up with a much different answer than the Enlightenment thinkers or Rococo artists would have given. For them, the break from tradition was an unquestionably good thing. It allowed art to pursue pleasure and useful instruction. It civilized society. Yet, Leopardi doesn't seem to embrace this change the same way these others did. He meets the collapsed tradition with somber resignation. The last lines of the poem are:

Young lad, larking about,
This blossom-time of yours
Is like a day of pure delight,
A cloudless blue day
Before the feast of your life.
Enjoy it, little one, for this
Is a state of bliss, a glad season.
I'll say no more, only
Don't fret if your Sunday
Seems a long time coming.

There's no attempt to regain a "masterplot"--just acceptance of uncertainty.

That's what I think is going on with tradition in this poem. As usual, there's plenty more to talk about. I wanted to get that out there, so that it doesn't go unnoticed. Also, I still want to talk about the women and men in this poem, so I got one more long post to write.

Virgil

03-23-2010, 06:31 PM

Saturday is filled with hope for Sunday, and Sunday is consumed by despair because of Monday.
I also think there is pleasure associated with Sunday. I don't see the despair of Monday as being the defining characteristic of Sunday. It's a pleasure to have Sunday and "oh yeah, Monday is coming."

The questions now are "Why is the biblical/classical" tradition broken?" and "What are the effects of it breaking?"
To be honest this whole classical/biblical/enlightment segmenting of the poem is a real stretch. There is a distinction between Saturday/Sunday/Monday, but no where can i see any philosophical distinctions as linked to philosophic movements in this poem.

Quark

03-23-2010, 06:39 PM

I also think there is pleasure associated with Sunday. I don't see the despair of Monday as being the defining characteristic of Sunday. It's a pleasure to have Sunday and "oh yeah, Monday is coming.

Then what do you make of these lines:

Tomorrow the hours will be leaden
With emptiness and melancholy,
Everybody going back in his mind
To the daily grind. (41-44)

I think you're right that there is some pleasure associated with Sunday. But, when a poem says that something will be empty and melancholy, I think you also have to acknowledge that there's more than just pleasure there, too.

At the moment I'm trying to reconcile the image of the crone spinning the story of her youth - similar to arachnae who was turned into the spider. Arachnae wove the infidelities of the gods, which may be a reference to the crone's stories of her youth. This seems to sit well with the imagery of death and the warning about youth in Quark's post.

Now that's a reference I would have to look up. Give me a second to review the poem and my mythology.

I can see the link to the young boys at the end of the poem - representing youthful boisterousness. Are they images of innocence befor they have the opportunity to spoil their spirituality?

Again, I'd have to go back to the poem for this. I need to reread before I'll say something about the spirituality of the boys.

noticed in the emoticon that the front wheel is turning but not the back. Does that imply "we're just spinning our wheels"

Maybe. Let's just agree that's what it is, though. Then it would at least have some meaning.

Paulclem

03-23-2010, 06:40 PM

I have to agree with Virgil - I don't doubt the traditions you are referring to Quark, but I think the link with the poem is too thin. I'd like a theory that sits closer to the text, as clearly the biblical links do.

Paulclem

03-23-2010, 06:49 PM

The Nichols translation has:

The day of seven is the best of all,
So full of hpe and joy:
The hours will bring ennui
Tomorrow, and sadness, making everyone
Return in thought to his accustomed toil.

The seven days I see as the creation. But whereas God can create in 7 days, man cannot, and has to return to his toil, which brings us to Adam and Eve and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden.
I was wondering about the crone - as the old woman is referred to in the Nichols - and original sin. The image of her is of Arachnae who challenged Athena and was turned into a spider for spinning the Infidelities of the Gods. Does this link to original sin - and the cause of man's toil? The first half is about women - and their anticipation and reflection on the Holy day. The second part is about toil. Does the ending with the young boys represent inocence?

Quark

03-23-2010, 11:31 PM

The Nichols translation has:

The day of seven is the best of all,
So full of hpe and joy:
The hours will bring ennui
Tomorrow, and sadness, making everyone
Return in thought to his accustomed toil.

Oh that makes it clearer. Yeah, I think I misread which day was being referred to there. Ultimately, though, the point that I'm making still stands. What I was saying is that people in this poem think about the next day, rather than the one they're in. On Saturday, the farmer goes home thinking about his day of rest. On Saturday, the boys are happy about the coming Sunday, the girl gets ready for the socializing on Sunday. But, when Sunday actually comes and there's hope and joy, Leopardi jumps over the day itself. Suddenly we're into Monday and the "sadness" and "ennui" are upon us. There isn't much enjoyment of the actual present day. Everyone is looking ahead--or sometimes behind. The poem itself is looking ahead--or sometimes behind. But there's little appreciation of the present day.

The seven days I see as the creation. But whereas God can create in 7 days, man cannot, and has to return to his toil, which brings us to Adam and Eve and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden.

That seems a little far-fetched given what we know about Leopardi. What you're saying makes the poem sound like a pretty typical discussion of fallen man. It's the kind of thing you would expect someone very sure of their faith to write: that man is fallen, but he will eventually be redeemed. That's pretty optimistic. But Leopardi wasn't exactly a super-Christian--if such a title exists. Virgil asked whether he was an atheist when we discussing the last poem, and I think that's a fair question. He certainly has doubts, and he doesn't care for the usual doctrine. Read his poem about the monument to Dante or "The Flower in the Desert" and this really comes out.

That's why I tend to think that the problems being discussed in the second half of the poem (the fact that Sunday is a long time coming, and the carpenter has to work overtime) has more to with man being secular than it does with man being fallen. It's also why I brought up the Enlightenment. Leopardi isn't referring to specific Enlightenment thinkers, or anything like that, but he's certainly talking about secularization--which is very much a result of the Enlightenment. I brought up specific examples of Enlightenment thought as illustration, not to say to say that he was referring to these individual people. That would be crazy. Why would he be talking about French painting? Really, I'm just saying that he's talking about secularization. And it's not just this poem which takes up this theme. For a closer look at Leopardi's view on this read "Various thoughts on philosophy and literature" where he specifically talks about how the rise of reason has challenged myth and religion--and even replaced them.

As usual, the poem is about a lot of things. But parts of it seem to be about secularization.

Does the ending with the young boys represent inocence?

Yeah, I think you're right. They're eagerly expecting something that the poet knows more about and questions. The speaker is more knowledgeable, but it's debatable whether that knowledge is really desirable. You could argue that the children represent innocence and the speaker represents experience. I think you and I disagree about what that experience entails, though. As I was saying above, his experience seems to point to skepticism rather than worldly, post-lapsarian kind of knowledge. What he knows doesn't suggest earthly evil, rather it suggests questioning.

mortalterror

03-24-2010, 01:47 AM

I don't want to rush our discussion of Saturday in the Village but maybe our next poem could be Sunday Evening. It seems like it may be a continuation of Leopardi's theme from the first poem. Not sure why it comes so much later in the collection.
According to "A Leopardi Reader" by Ottavio M. Casale, Sunday Evening was written sometime in October 1820 and Saturday in the Village was written on September 29th 1829. My guess is it comes later in the book because the editor organized the contents chronologically.

I was wondering when we would get around to the subject of Leopardi's religious beliefs. My understanding is that he hails from a conservative papal state and converts to atheism sometime in his early twenties. I didn't bring it up in the last poem, because I wasn't sure about the exact date he lost his faith and at the time of Infinitive's creation he would only have been about twenty. But at the time, I was reminded of another Atheist poet Shelley and the ending of his poem Mont Blanc:

And what were thou, and earth, and stars, and sea,
if to the human mind's imaginings
Silence and solitude were vacancy?
when we discussed Leopardi's application of divinity, silence, and emptiness.

And while we are discussing poetic sympathies, this poem reminds me of the beginning of Thomas Gray's Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard (1751) with it's

The curfew tolls the knell of parting day...
The plowman homeward plods his weary way
more than it does Marvel and his mowers. Leopardi is more likely to remind me of James Thomson and his City of Dreadful Night for it's cynicism and melancholy, or Alexander Pope for his classical learning and physical deformity.

Happiness for the older people appears to be anticipatory or a function of recollection, while the younger ones are happy in the moment. As in the last poem, sound is a joyful noise be it whistling, shouting, or the bell pealing.

He mentions the color blue twice. I wonder if he meant something by that.

Paulclem

03-24-2010, 01:50 PM

I think you and I disagree about what that experience entails, though. As I was saying above, his experience seems to point to skepticism rather than worldly, post-lapsarian kind of knowledge. Quark

I wouldn't say that yet Quark. I'm still rolling ideas about, and i wouldn't count my knowledge of the Enlightenment or of Leopardi's life as up to much.

That seems a little far-fetched given what we know about Leopardi. What you're saying makes the poem sound like a pretty typical discussion of fallen man. It's the kind of thing you would expect someone very sure of their faith to write: that man is fallen, but he will eventually be redeemed. That's pretty optimistic. But Leopardi wasn't exactly a super-Christian--if such a title exists. Virgil asked whether he was an atheist when we discussing the last poem, and I think that's a fair question. He certainly has doubts, and he doesn't care for the usual doctrine. Read his poem about the monument to Dante or "The Flower in the Desert" and this really comes out.

I think it is referred to, but I'm unsure of the reason as to why it's there. You seem pretty clear on your interpretation - but I'm not there yet. I don't dispute his loss of faith - his focus seems to be on worldly suffering rather than salvation I agree.

Still musing:D

Virgil

03-24-2010, 08:18 PM

Then what do you make of these lines:

I think you're right that there is some pleasure associated with Sunday. But, when a poem says that something will be empty and melancholy, I think you also have to acknowledge that there's more than just pleasure there, too.

Quark, I'm pretty sure he's referring to Monday with those lines. I had orignally read it as Sunday, but it became clearer on further reads. Judging by your subsequent posts, I think you now agree.

I have to agree with Virgil - I don't doubt the traditions you are referring to Quark, but I think the link with the poem is too thin. I'd like a theory that sits closer to the text, as clearly the biblical links do.
Yes. The kind of analysis Quark made is valid toward an entire opus of a author's works. Unless the poet is specifically making a point about the Enlightenment and Romanticism or whatever, you need to have solid connections, not just suggestive possibilities.

Virgil

03-24-2010, 08:24 PM

I was wondering when we would get around to the subject of Leopardi's religious beliefs. My understanding is that he hails from a conservative papal state and converts to atheism sometime in his early twenties. I didn't bring it up in the last poem, because I wasn't sure about the exact date he lost his faith and at the time of Infinitive's creation he would only have been about twenty. But at the time, I was reminded of another Atheist poet Shelley and the ending of his poem Mont Blanc:

What do you want to say about it? When it comes up in a poem someone will bring it up I'm sure. I thought it was suggested in "Infinitive" in the Grennan translation, but the Nichols translation really pointed toward a divinity, and when I read the actual Italian, I believe the Nichols translation is correct. In this poem, "Saturday In The Village," I don't see any suggestion of atheism. Quite the contrary.

stlukesguild

03-24-2010, 08:28 PM

And while we are discussing poetic sympathies, this poem reminds me of the beginning of Thomas Gray's Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard (1751) with it's

The curfew tolls the knell of parting day...
The plowman homeward plods his weary way

Yes... but not surprising, Mortal. As Casale states elsewhere in The Leopardi Reader the "graveyard poets" were favorites and major influences.

Quark

03-25-2010, 02:13 AM

I was wondering when we would get around to the subject of Leopardi's religious beliefs.

It is an interesting subject. When someone with the atheistic views that Leopardi seemed to have at the time writes a poem with so many religious overtones like those in "Saturday in the Village," it creates quite a tension. I'm sure lots could be said about it, but it's getting a little late tonight. Tomorrow, I'll come back to this.

And while we are discussing poetic sympathies, this poem reminds me of the beginning of Thomas Gray's Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard (1751)

I certainly see some parallels. What do you make of the attitude of the two poems toward the waning day, though? Gray's poem appears a little less cheerful. Leopardi writes about the farmer and the boys eagerly anticipating the coming day. I think the Leopardi's speaker has some reservations about all this, but the people in the poem are nothing if not hopeful. You might want to spell your comparison out more. I think I see what you're saying, but I'm not entirely sure.

You seem pretty clear on your interpretation - but I'm not there yet.

I'm not really there, either--just throwing ideas out there. I just read the poem a few days ago, and I hadn't read any Leopardi up until a week or two ago. This is still pretty new to me.

The kind of analysis Quark made is valid toward an entire opus of a author's works. Unless the poet is specifically making a point about the Enlightenment and Romanticism or whatever, you need to have solid connections, not just suggestive possibilities.

Well, clearly I thought what I was saying was "valid." I wouldn't have bothered posting if it wasn't. All I'm arguing is that the first half of the poem builds up our expectation for a happy country Sunday, but, in the second half of the poem, there's no payoff. Instead, there's equivocation from Leopardi. The first half of the poem ends with the farmhand "Thinking about his day of rest," and we're in this mood of warm anticipation. Yet, once we get into the second half of the poem we find carpenter banging away when "every other light is out." The poet talks about the expectation of a joyous feast day, but he or she skips over it when they consider the future. We hear about a "warmest welcome," but soon it's Monday. What happened to the Sunday we were hearing about? And, in the last lines, Leopardi's speaker tells us that our Sunday may be a long time coming. Why? What's going on here? That's the question I'm driving at. I brought up the Enlightenment and Leopardi's secular views as a possible explanation of that question.

Now, if you don't agree with what I wrote, that's fine. But you've posted a few glib, two-sentence responses to my posts, and I really can't do anything with those. When you say something like "The kind of analysis Quark made is valid toward an entire opus of a author's works," what am I supposed to say back to that? "No, I think it is valid." I guess this is your opinion, but I don't know why it's your opinion. What is "the kind of analysis Quark made?" What does that mean? Why would it be valid for "entire opus of a author's works," but not an individual work? You don't give reasons for why you disagree. You simply want to register that what I'm saying is completely off-base--which seems unnecessarily hostile. I'm just describing what I think is an interesting angle to the poem. If you've got a better idea about what's going on in this poem, put it forward. I'm more than willing to talk about other ways of talking about the poem. It's quite possible that's there's a far better answer to the question I posed above about the absent Sunday. Or, maybe the Sunday is purely cheerful after all. I don't know, but you have to give us something to work with.

What do you want to say about it? When it comes up in a poem someone will bring it up I'm sure.

It actually was brought up. Paulclem's and my own posts directly above mortal's brought that issue into play. In fact, I asked about his atheism pretty outright. mortal may have been trying give more details about an idea that was floated out there. Of course, I can never tell with mortal. I'm never clear when he's joking.

Virgil

03-25-2010, 11:41 PM

Now, if you don't agree with what I wrote, that's fine. But you've posted a few glib, two-sentence responses to my posts, and I really can't do anything with those. When you say something like "The kind of analysis Quark made is valid toward an entire opus of a author's works," what am I supposed to say back to that?

Well, I'm sorry Quark, if you feel offended. But there's no way anyone can validate whole eras of intellectual movements from a dozen lines from a single poem, and multiple eras within a single work? Look that's over intellectualizing. Artists don't sit and think I'll fit into this era or that. Art just doesn't work that way.

Quark

03-26-2010, 01:30 AM

I'm sorry Quark, if you feel offended.

That's funny. No, LitNet is a little too casual to get offended over. Really, there's only three things that offend me: criticizing my favorite sports teams, the low salaries of teachers, and pointless emoticons (oh, how I loathe that last one). I was just surprised you were giving me such a hard time on this thread. Usually, you're pretty laid-back, but now you're telling me all about things that "there's no way anyone can" do. It's taking me a moment to adjust.

But there's no way anyone can validate whole eras of intellectual movements from a dozen lines from a single poem, and multiple eras within a single work?

Well, you and I could have some academic discussion about the extent that art interacts with intellectual movements, but that seems beside the point. As I've said in a number of posts, I'm not arguing that the poem is making direct reference to the Enlightenment. What I'm saying is that there's some uncertainty about the coming Sunday in Leopardi's "Saturday in the Village," and that the uncertainty has something to do with secularization. The poem raises the idea of a pleasant, enjoyable Sunday in the first half, but in the second half we find some disconcerting details. The carpenter has to "strain" and "sweat" when one would expect the day to be over. The poem looks forward to the Sunday, but when the poet considers the future Sunday is skipped over rather quickly and we move into Monday. What happened to Sunday? And, in the last lines, Leopardi tells us that our Sunday may be delayed. Why? This points to some uncertainty about Sunday. I suggested that the uncertainty may reflect secularization. The carpenter has to work overtime because life doesn't conform to the Bible's idea of a six-day work week. Sunday might be skipped over because ultimately it's empty. Our Sunday may be a long time coming because the promises made by religion may not be fulfilled. That was the interpretation I was offering. I brought up the Enlightenment as evidence for what I saying. I pointed out that the Enlightenment encouraged secularization, and that Leopardi held some rather atheistic positions. It would make sense that given what we know about the historical and biographical context of the poem that he could be talking about unbelief entering into our worldview. That's all I'm saying.

Virgil

03-26-2010, 08:03 PM

That's funny. No, LitNet is a little too casual to get offended over. Really, there's only three things that offend me: criticizing my favorite sports teams, the low salaries of teachers, and pointless emoticons (oh, how I loathe that last one).
Well, if I had known that, I would have revealed that I think the Chicago Cubs stink, teachers are over paid, and :svengo::driving::auto:.

:p

I was just surprised you were giving me such a hard time on this thread. Usually, you're pretty laid-back, but now you're telling me all about things that "there's no way anyone can" do. It's taking me a moment to adjust.
I wasn't intentionally giving you a hard time. I was just disagreeing with something you said.

Well, you and I could have some academic discussion about the extent that art interacts with intellectual movements, but that seems beside the point. As I've said in a number of posts, I'm not arguing that the poem is making direct reference to the Enlightenment. What I'm saying is that there's some uncertainty about the coming Sunday in Leopardi's "Saturday in the Village," and that the uncertainty has something to do with secularization.
Ah, now that's a legitamate point. Forget any reference to an intellectual movement, let's focus on what the poem says. But still I have to disagree. The second to last stanza is fairly clear that Sunday is the best day of the week:

This one [Saturday] get this warmest welcome,
Full of hope, as it is, and joy.
Tomorrow the hours will be leaden
With emptiness and melancholy,
Everybody going back in his mind
To the daily grind. (39-44)

I don't see anything in the poem that would suggest secularism. If Sunday is not heavenly bliss, that's just the toil of life.

The poem raises the idea of a pleasant, enjoyable Sunday in the first half, but in the second half we find some disconcerting details. The carpenter has to "strain" and "sweat" when one would expect the day to be over. The poem looks forward to the Sunday, but when the poet considers the future Sunday is skipped over rather quickly and we move into Monday. What happened to Sunday? And, in the last lines, Leopardi tells us that our Sunday may be delayed. Why? This points to some uncertainty about Sunday. I suggested that the uncertainty may reflect secularization. The carpenter has to work overtime because life doesn't conform to the Bible's idea of a six-day work week. Sunday might be skipped over because ultimately it's empty. Our Sunday may be a long time coming because the promises made by religion may not be fulfilled. That was the interpretation I was offering. I brought up the Enlightenment as evidence for what I saying. I pointed out that the Enlightenment encouraged secularization, and that Leopardi held some rather atheistic positions. It would make sense that given what we know about the historical and biographical context of the poem that he could be talking about unbelief entering into our worldview. That's all I'm saying.
OK, I hear you.

My reading, thanks to Paul's insight of the poem's subtext of death and the carpenter (Christ) possibly building a coffin, is that Sunday is the rest that comes at the end of life, the cessation of toil. But the poem has a circular movement. One generation passeth and the next cometh, and the new week starts with the toil returning.

Quark

03-26-2010, 08:22 PM

The second to last stanza is fairly clear that Sunday is the best day of the week:

Oh, there's no doubt that Sunday is the best day of the week. It's just that it never comes. Sunday is skipped over or delayed indefinitely. When we look at the other Sunday poem, "Sunday Evening," I think we'll see the same thing going on there, too. The feast day is just an idea--it's not something that's actually experienced.

If Sunday is not heavenly bliss, that's just the toil of life.

I think I see the point you're making, but I'm not sure. Are you saying that if there's any problem with Sunday it's due to that fact that man is fallen? Is that what you're going for?

LitNetIsGreat

03-28-2010, 11:36 AM

Are we ready to move on to a new poem yet? Sunday Evening was suggested earlier I think. No rush if not.

Quark

03-28-2010, 12:05 PM

The conversation is in a bit of a lull, so maybe changing things up would help. I gave my book with "Sunday Evening" in it back to the library, so I probably won't be able to post until Monday, though.

LitNetIsGreat

03-28-2010, 12:47 PM

Well, we could pick another poem then if that would help or don't you have any of the poems now?

Paulclem

03-28-2010, 03:47 PM

You can get one off the internet collections Quark. Why don't you pick and we'll go with whatever you can access.

Virgil

03-28-2010, 04:18 PM

I'm ready for the next one. We promised Lynne "Sunday Evening." I'll read it tonight, which happens to be Sunday evening. :wink5:

Quark

03-28-2010, 09:37 PM

Well, we could pick another poem then if that would help or don't you have any of the poems now?

You can get one off the internet collections Quark. Why don't you pick and we'll go with whatever you can access.

Go ahead and do "Sunday Evening." I'll post tomorrow when I can get hold of the book. I checked out three initially, but then I turned two back in since it took it us almost two weeks to get through the first poem. Of course, if anyone has a link to the poem, send it my way, but I haven't been able to find anything by search engine or google books.

LitNetIsGreat

03-29-2010, 03:47 AM

I can send you the poem later.

If anyone is reading the Nichols version it is poem no. VIII "The Evening of the Holy Day". I re-read it last night, it is a good choice, lots of meat on this one...

Edit: sorry it is no.XIII.

Quark

03-29-2010, 05:01 PM

it is a good choice, lots of meat on this one...

Yeah, there's quite a bit to talk about. The first thing that caught me is the fact that the speaker pushes the Sunday further and further into the past as the poem goes on. At the start of the poem, we're talking about a Sunday that has recently happened, and is still happening. By the end of the poem we're talking about a distant past that can never be recovered. The poem compares it to fallen Roman empire (it's hard to get more distant and removed than that) and to his own boyhood (long past and unrecoverable). At the start of the poem we're talking about a day that has just past, and one that will eventually return. By the end, though, we're talking about something that's completely gone.

LitNetIsGreat

03-29-2010, 05:17 PM

Yes there is a lot to go on, I'm feeling a bit swamped trying to fit my thoughts together briefly. As I’m out tomorrow and short of time now I’ll just briefly throw a few wide ranging thoughts into the air - bullet point style if that is OK, instead of looking at one aspect more deeply? Of immediate interest to me in this poem are the following points:

1 Life’s brevity
2 lack of religious comfort
3 The smallness of man in relation to the world/universe
4 Youth’s innocence Vs aged wisdom
5 Comfort of death/rest peace
6 The cruelty of nature/love/desire
7 Loneliness as a default emotion
8 Poverty as a common factor

Again for me there are a lot of similar things going off in this poem as were happening in the last poem(s). In particular I think that the quickness of time/life’s brevity is pretty central once again. I mean take this part from lines 28-33:

And cruelly it clutches at my heart
To think the world and all must pass and leave
Scarcely a trace. And now this festival
Is gone, and hard upon its festive heels
The common day must tread; time steels away
All human circumstance.

Here for me we have not just a mourning for his own passing (indeed there is possibly some envy towards the peace of the dead woman) but the mourning for mankind in general. He goes on to comment just after these lines of the loss of the great Roman Empire asking “now where’s the noise of all those ancient peoples?” It is not just for the individual who is nothing to time’s cruel shadow, but “all human circumstance” everything even great civilisations which of course only seeks to highlight an individual’s lack of importance in the grand scheme of things.

2 lack of religious comfort

For me in this poem there is no religious comfort to such bleak (or realistic) ways of viewing life. The fact that the poem is set on a religious day which passes so quickly “And now this festival/Is gone, and hard upon its festive heels/The common day must tread” and the overall lack of religious happening suggests there is no or very little comfort to be found in religion at all. Quickly now bath time awaits...

3 The smallness of man in relation to the world/universe

Partially covered by point one, and similar to it actually, but it is also in the opening of the poem showing the universe looking down upon human life. 1-4:

The night is mild and clear without a wind,
And silent over the roofs and down in gardens
The moonlight pauses, and distantly reveals
In all serenity each height.

For me there is a looking down upon human significance here and elsewhere in the poem.

4 Youth’s innocence Vs aged wisdom

As in the last poem there seems to be a play-off between the innocent of youth and an older more cynical understanding of how the world is.

5 Comfort of death/rest peace

The dead women in the poem, the object of the narrator’s failed love seems to be at peace or he seems to think she is at peace, however there is no peace for the narrator who has to “go on living” to me this suggests that there may be peace in death, but not particularly in a religious context.

My rubber duck is missing me...

6 The cruelty of nature/love/desire
7 Loneliness as a default emotion
8 Poverty as a rule

As shown in his fatal attraction to the female figure and in the lonely song of the poverty stricken worker. Such loneliness is also that of the narrator and possibly that of the dead women in life too, perhaps there is a suggestion of this a sort of default thing? Again poverty features in this poem as it did in the last or at least the poor song of a poor worker.

Again, sorry to bullet point things but I might not be around much tomorrow or possibly much over the next couple of days (apart from at work) so I just wanted to get a few things out there. Of course though there is still more to look at that I am interested in and have had to ignore...

Rock and roll. :)

Virgil

03-29-2010, 07:17 PM

I didn't think this poem was all that interesting. I read it a few times last night. All I got was "woe is me she doesn't love me." I'll give it another shot tonight.

Quark

03-30-2010, 01:40 AM

Again for me there are a lot of similar things going off in this poem as were happening in the last poem(s).

The poems do fit well together. Does anyone know how these were published? Is the connection we're seeing something that would have been recognizable to the poems' original readers? In any case, I think the parallels are hard to ignore. The poems share the same timeline (right before Sunday and right after Sunday) and link the same emotional extremes to each end of the timeline. Hope, innocence, and faith warm the feelings of everyone right before Sunday, but soon after the speaker lapses into weariness and doubt. As I said about the last poem, I think the two points in time represent a more dogmatic past and a secular modernity, and I see the same setup here.

Here for me we have not just a mourning for his own passing (indeed there is possibly some envy towards the peace of the dead woman) but the mourning for mankind in general.

Death is certainly not far off in this poem. Is the woman dead, though? I haven't read the entire Canti (so I don't know if she died previous to this poem), but this poem didn't give me the impression she was dead. It does say:

Today was a holy day: your pastimes passed
And laid to rest, you rest; and dream perhaps
Of all you charmed today, and all who charmed
You in their turn

But I took this rather literally to mean that she had a day of activity and retired to sleep.

It is not just for the individual who is nothing to time’s cruel shadow, but “all human circumstance” everything even great civilisations which of course only seeks to highlight an individual’s lack of importance in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, there's a painful letting go of everything in this poem. He has to acknowledge that the woman doesn't care for him, that the past will never come back, and that his own ambitions might turn to nothing. It definitely shows his lack of importance in the grand scheme of things. The individual doesn't have much of a level to control anything outside of himself or herself in this poem. Of course, there's an interesting tension because its topic is the individual. We're focused in on his feelings. How can the poem downplay the individual, then?

For me in this poem there is no religious comfort to such bleak (or realistic) ways of viewing life.

The poem reads that way for me, too.

As shown in his fatal attraction to the female figure and in the lonely song of the poverty stricken worker.

I'm not sure what I make of these two figures, yet. I'll have to give it some thought.

LitNetIsGreat

03-30-2010, 08:01 AM

Death is certainly not far off in this poem. Is the woman dead, though? I haven't read the entire Canti (so I don't know if she died previous to this poem), but this poem didn't give me the impression she was dead. It does say:

Today was a holy day: your pastimes passed
And laid to rest, you rest; and dream perhaps
Of all you charmed today, and all who charmed
You in their turn

But I took this rather literally to mean that she had a day of activity and retired to sleep.

Yes it could be read in a literal sense, but I read it to mean her death, when all the other factors are considered in the poem this reading makes more sense to me. I mean with the focus on time's passing and the idea of death in the poem, the death of individual and civilsations - putting these together and the emphasis on the rest "laid to rest, you rest" suggests to me her death. Of course though it could be taken literally as well.

Edit: I mean "laid to rest" does seem a little odd don't you think?

I didn't think this poem was all that interesting. I read it a few times last night. All I got was "woe is me she doesn't love me." I'll give it another shot tonight.

Really? I did more for me than that, though I know you are reading a different translation and it might read differently with the Grennan or it could just be you. :p

Quark

03-30-2010, 12:38 PM

I mean with the focus on time's passing and the idea of death in the poem, the death of individual and civilsations - putting these together and the emphasis on the rest "laid to rest, you rest" suggests to me her death. Of course though it could be taken literally as well.

For the speaker she may as well be dead. I just got the ideas she was still alive because Leopardi write that she will "dream perhaps/ Of all you charmed today, and all who charmed/ You in their turn." It makes it sound like she was socializing just that day. That's the way it came off to me. Of course, I could be completely wrong, as I haven't read the entire sequence of poems. She may have died in a previous poem.

Anyway, I still have to post some stuff on the woman and the poor worker. I probably won't get to it until late tonight, but I'll try to post more.

Paulclem

03-30-2010, 07:48 PM

I think this poem is a meditation on time and how elusive it is.

It begins with night when everything has happened already. And so it proceeds. Even hurt is a memory along with the Roman Empire and the Holy day. He's never actually referred to experiencing anything - it has all happened. The only thing that seems to stay is the peace afterwards and the pain - even in memories.

Initial thoughts for now.

Virgil

03-30-2010, 08:51 PM

Yes, I think there is more there than my initial reading. I need to study it a bit more.

Quark

04-01-2010, 01:15 AM

I haven't forgotten about this thread, but I've been a little busy of late. Work has been difficult recently, since apparently my students have no idea how to do research. There's been much hand holding, and, suffice it to say, there hasn't been much time to post on LitNet.

He's never actually referred to experiencing anything - it has all happened. The only thing that seems to stay is the peace afterwards and the pain - even in memories.

I agree with that, but what do you make of his desires in this poem? He longs for the woman, just as he once longed for the holiday:

In my first age, that age when holy days
Are desperately desired

If the poem is about the past falling away from us, what does that mean for these desires? What are these desires? Are we meant to take them on face value--as desire for a holiday and a woman? Or, is there something deeper? This is the part of the poem that seems elusive.

LitNetIsGreat

04-01-2010, 03:45 AM

Ha, students eh?

Yes there is the obvious desire for the women in the first part of the poem and in the lines you quote above. I think I took this desire aspect as a sort of youthful lust for life, which is where I think I was coming from the other day with the youth Vs old age thing. As in the last poem we looked at the narrator had more of a lust for life in youth which faded with the wisdom of older age, wisdom about the way of the world and the full understanding of time's passing etc and here I see the same thing here (though I have not looked at the poem since).

I'll have another look at the poem tomorrow and maybe post something more when I have the time.

Quark

04-01-2010, 03:12 PM

Yes there is the obvious desire for the women in the first part of the poem and in the lines you quote above. I think I took this desire aspect as a sort of youthful lust for life, which is where I think I was coming from the other day with the youth Vs old age thing.

True. I think there is a hope or a "lust for life" there, and that the state the speaker finds himself at the end is one of hopeless despair. This poem seems to show the emotional repercussions of the ideas that were latent in "Saturday in the Village." The doubts that enter quietly into the previous poem become the subject of this one, and the speaker recoils emotionally.

LitNetIsGreat

04-05-2010, 01:57 PM

New poem?

What about "La ginestra o il fiore del deserto/The Broom or The Flower of the Desert" poem no. XXXIV in the Nichols? I can't remember much about it now but I remember thinking something of it when I first read through the Canti. I think it is quite a dark and meaty one and we are sat back on a mountain which is always fun...

Paulclem

04-05-2010, 02:36 PM

Fine with me. We seemed to grind to a halt with the last one. I'm on holiday now, so I should be able to do a bit.

Virgil

04-05-2010, 07:57 PM

Ok, I'll get to it tonight. I may still want to comment on that last one. I'm just behind on my reading.

Quark

04-06-2010, 11:56 AM

What about "La ginestra o il fiore del deserto/The Broom or The Flower of the Desert" poem no. XXXIV in the Nichols?

Sure, pick the long one Neely. I don't think it will be too hard to discuss, though, since it's kind of slow moving. Compared to the other poems, it's practically glacial in its gradual progression. Leopardi introduces an idea and then builds onto it throughout an entire stanza or more. It's not quite as dense as some of the others we've done. "Saturday in the Village" and "The Infinite" were packed tighter than the little 2-door vehicle I carpool to work in. "The Broom or The Flower of the Desert," on the other hand, focuses on just a handful of ideas and takes its time developing them.

The first idea I'd like to bring up is in these lines:

That man has a truly noble nature
Who, without flinching, still can face
Our common plight, tell the truth
With an honest tongue,
Admit the evil lot we've been given

It's this sense that man's dignity lies in a sort of cosmic humility. I don't think it's a particularly new thought--people have been making it since the ancients--but I'm curious about how Leopardi handles it. I also wonder whether Leopardi means to make this point in a general way or whether he's advancing this claim to a specific audience--one located in a particular people at a particular time. Earlier, the speaker addressed the overly hopeful in these lines:

Look and see yourself here,
You proud, vain, ignorant century,

Clearly, this is leveled at some in a particular time. So what about these people at this time is overly hopeful? There seems to be a topical point as well as a general one that Leopardi seems to be making. The general point isn't all that new, but the topical one might be--and it might help us understand what Leopardi is doing in this poem. I don't really have a good answer to this question right now, but it's something I'm thinking about while I'm rereading the poem.

LitNetIsGreat

04-07-2010, 07:06 AM

Of course Virgil feel free to shoot from the other poem too.

Yes, I thought I'd pick a long one and make you all work a bit, I can't let laziness creep in, chop, chop - though it is slightly longer than I remembered it. You are quite right though it seems to move much more slowly than the others in giving us its fruits.

Yes I agree with your point about 'cosmic humility' if you mean comparing the insignificance of mankind to the universe sort of thing.

Look and see yourself here,
You proud, vain, ignorant century,

Clearly, this is levelled at some in a particular time. So what about these people at this time is overly hopeful?

I took this arrogance to be levelled at his contemporaries in particular; the way that people's attitudes have gone from an original unity (if there ever was an original unity) to a false pretension. Here is another significant part on the same type of criticism of mankind:

A man of slender means and feeble body,
A man who is magnanimous and noble,
Does not deceive himself
That he is rich and strong
...
He feels no shame at all in looking poor
In health and wealth, in stating openly
His own clear estimation of his value,
...
That other is not noble,
In my belief, but stupid
(Lines 87+)

He seems to think that if mankind could put away this sense of elevated self-importance then they might be able to see that “Mother Nature” (or time) is the real enemy and not each other. He seems to look back to a golden time of unity, like I said, in such lines as “Mankind has been united, organised/Against her from the first” (128) though I would strongly wonder if there has ever been such a golden time of unity, but perhaps that is beside the point?

I’m also interested in how he seems to elevate the Bloom in having more sense than the human race in understanding the lowly place in the grand scheme of things. There are also a few references to “the light” which I would read in a religious sense perhaps, whether in a positive sense or a negative one I’m not sure because I’ve not really looked into that angle yet. I might read into that a little later on tonight.

Quark

04-07-2010, 05:07 PM

though I would strongly wonder if there has ever been such a golden time of unity, but perhaps that is beside the point?

I guess that's what I'm asking. Are we talking about some mythical golden age or is there a real time that Leopardi is talking about? And why did we slip from that golden age?

There are also a few references to “the light” which I would read in a religious sense perhaps, whether in a positive sense or a negative one I’m not sure because I’ve not really looked into that angle yet.

Is that a reference to reason and thought? I'm not exactly sure which lines you're talking about (I think we have different translations), so you might want to post them on the thread.

LitNetIsGreat

04-08-2010, 03:03 PM

No, I’m coming away from any real religious context now that I’ve looked at it properly. Originally it was things like this:

Lines 80+

And that is why
You turned your coward back upon the light
Which showed the truth; why, while you flee, you call
Him base who seeks the light,
Him only noble who,
Deceived or else deceiving, mad or wise,
Exalts the human lot above the skies.

As well as the many references to “light” and there is a line which says “temples disfigured” but if you put them together a religious angle doesn’t seem to tally that well overall, though it seems a strong possibility just based upon the extract above.

JBI

04-09-2010, 11:20 PM

Wow, now that I have finished my big exam, I have time to return to this; going to take a while to get through all the great posts though, so will wait to comment until later.

LitNetIsGreat

04-10-2010, 08:01 AM

Ah yes I thought I hadn't seen you around for a while, I thought that you was either working hard or on holiday. I expected working hard though. Me I'm trying to do both - but with little success I'm afraid, in one of them anyway...

Quark

04-10-2010, 11:54 AM

Wow, now that I have finished my big exam, I have time to return to this

Wow, indeed. Hopefully everything went well. What were you being tested on?

As well as the many references to “light” and there is a line which says “temples disfigured” but if you put them together a religious angle doesn’t seem to tally that well overall, though it seems a strong possibility just based upon the extract above.

I think the lines above help us explicate that part, though. In the Grennan translation it looks like this:

Freedom is the dream you dream
While putting thought in chains again--
Thought, which all that brought us
Almost out of the barbarous dark, alone
Enabled civilization, is what alone
Steers the state toward a better life.
Having no love for bitter truth
Of that hard lot and lowly place
Which nature gave us, you turned
Your coward's back on the light
That lets us see things as they are

Some bold added. This passage sets up Leopardi's version of Plato's divided line. We get something like this:

Civilization-|-Barbarism
-----------|-----------
Thought---|-Cowardice
-----------|-----------
Freedom---|-Chained Imprisonment

The light appears to stand for everything on the left, while the dark represents everything on the right. On the left is everything that's ideal, and on the right is everything that the speaker sees in Italian society. I don't know if religion enters into this so much. I'd have to look at that "temples disfigured" part to say for sure. Mostly, though, this is a return to the Enlightenment ideas of some of the other poems. The idea that man's mind is enslaved by slavish customs is straight out of Rousseau: "Man was born free, but everywhere he is in chains." Kant defined Enlightenment as intellectual maturity and bravery--as opposed to ignorance which is a state of blind following. I don't mean to say that Leopardi is exactly like these other figures (he's not), but this idea in the poem is torn right out the popular thought of the day.

That being said, I think Leopardi is much more interested in the emotional and social implications of these ideas than the other people I mentioned. So much of the Canti seems to be about what these ideas do for love, ambition, Italy, poetry, etc.

Oh, and, if you're going to look for a religious message in this poem, you're probably going to want to look at these lines:

And the many times you've loved to tell
Fable and fairy tales of how
On your behalf even the authors
Of the universe itself came down
To this dark grain of sand called earth,
And how, time after time, they talked
with you on friendly terms, and how
Over and over you've told these same
Silly dreams, insulting men of any sense

LitNetIsGreat

04-10-2010, 03:11 PM

Oh, and, if you're going to look for a religious message in this poem, you're probably going to want to look at these lines:

Yes, I had noticed those too. I think that there's probably enough to go on to suggest that Leopardi is criticising those who seek escape in religion, though it wouldn't be my primary position either.

JBI

04-16-2010, 11:30 PM

Can someone tell me which poem we are reading? I am kind of lost. And perhaps someone can give me some sizable English chunks of it, as the Italian version is probably slightly different.

Quark

04-17-2010, 12:17 AM

Can someone tell me which poem we are reading?

We were recently talking about "La Ginestra O Il Fiore Del Deserto," or "Broom or The Flower of the Desert," but the thread has been rather empty of late. I guess that's fitting--given the poem we're reading.

And perhaps someone can give me some sizable English chunks of it, as the Italian version is probably slightly different.

Here's the poem in Grennan's translations:

Here on the naked back
Of this amazing
Exterminator, Mount Vesuvius,
Cheered by

Okay, this goes on for a while. Maybe you could just pull a book from the library. Since you're at a major research university, this shouldn't be difficult. In fact, a quick search turns up the exact translation I'm using:

http://search8.library.utoronto.ca/UTL/index?N=0&Ntk=Anywhere&Ntt=Leopardi+%3A+selected+poems+%2F&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&Nu=p_work_normalized&Np=1&formName=search_form_simple

JBI

06-06-2010, 09:51 PM

Hmm, to try and bring this thread back to the top, and reawaken the discussion of The Broom,

To the point of this Barbarism over Civilization, or the other binaries - the idea I got when reading the poem was of the dominance of the cycle - the cultivated Romans that are gestured to by the dominance of Vesuvius throughout the poem are crossed with the simple fact; Pompei was wiped out. The villages, and the panorama afforded the reader simply stands as a projection of what he considers a type of blissful ignorance.

I think he is neither in agreement with an enlightenment view or a romantic; he seems to be abandoning the sort of "cultivated rationalism" that gives Enlightened thinkers their sense of superiority, as much as he is dismissing the Nobel Savages of Rousseau's thought as ignorant specs. The vision on top of Vesuvius, gesturing to Jesus' view from the mount, I would argue, shows but the insignificance of life - as the spewing mountain, symbolic of the dominant nature and cruelty of a world made insignificant by lack of meaning - his view is that of the transcient, that which is but a spec in the reality (his term is grain of sand) - his gesture to the stars and constellation rather than speak to the fate and presence, seems to suggest that humanity is just but one little aspect of a giant natural cycle, of which we have no control.

The ending, rather than praise a sort of enlightenment, seems to gesture that his idea of "enlightenment" is that of self defeat; one is insignificant, so the moral, and learned are the ones who realize their insignificance - in essence, the nihilist.

The vehicle of the Broom then, is a vehicle for nature - nature is the broom that sweeps over all - Vesuvius' lava, the moving of the planets.

IF we return to a reading that intertexts the Bible - we can see Leopardi is comparable to Jesus, when viewing the world. His position as dying "prophet" if you will is coupled with his view of the future - instead of the awakening with the second coming, his view gestures to the Broom - the world, its pathway, is but anticipating the destruction - the explosion that will end it all, the broom that will sweep its memory clean away, as it is but an insignificant spec in a grand, meaningless scheme.

Virgil

06-06-2010, 10:57 PM

Good idea JBI. Unfortunately I did not bring my book with me and it will probably be another month before I am home. I'll try to glance in here if the discussion moves along.

quasimodo1

06-07-2010, 07:21 AM

JBI and Virgil: Love to revisit this discussion later today or tomorrow; unfortunately have to deal with the curse of the reading class, work.

Paulclem

06-07-2010, 12:19 PM

Good idea JBI. Unfortunately I did not bring my book with me and it will probably be another month before I am home. I'll try to glance in here if the discussion moves along.

Hi Virgil,

We could PM the poem to you so you could take part.

I'll have a look later tonight after work.

I'm glad you brought it up again JBI.

LitNetIsGreat

06-07-2010, 01:02 PM

JBI and Virgil: Love to revisit this discussion later today or tomorrow; unfortunately have to deal with the curse of the reading class, work.

Ha, ha, quality...

I'll have a go at digging the poem up again and following JBI's pointers.

Quark

06-08-2010, 01:16 AM

Hmm, to try and bring this thread back to the top, and reawaken the discussion of The Broom,

Good idea, JBI. We never did finish this poem. In fact, we hardly started it. I got sidetracked by family stuff. People were moving or needing to be visited. I actually just got back from my niece's second birthday (I got her some plastic trinket). I'd love to get back into the Leopardi discussion, though.

The ending, rather than praise a sort of enlightenment, seems to gesture that his idea of "enlightenment" is that of self defeat; one is insignificant, so the moral, and learned are the ones who realize their insignificance - in essence, the nihilist.

The vehicle of the Broom then, is a vehicle for nature - nature is the broom that sweeps over all - Vesuvius' lava, the moving of the planets.

IF we return to a reading that intertexts the Bible - we can see Leopardi is comparable to Jesus, when viewing the world. His position as dying "prophet" if you will is coupled with his view of the future - instead of the awakening with the second coming, his view gestures to the Broom - the world, its pathway, is but anticipating the destruction - the explosion that will end it all, the broom that will sweep its memory clean away, as it is but an insignificant spec in a grand, meaningless scheme.

That's how I read "Sunday Evening" with its stress on peace, quiet, and nothingness: "All/ Is peace, all quiet, the whole world still." "The Broom or The Flower of the Desert" seems to be the more polemic version of that earlier poem. Polemic, though, implies a correct position and a mistaken opponent, so I think some of the nihilism of the previous poem drops out here in this poem. It seems like, rather than a cycle, the poem suggests that life, civilization, etc. gradually move toward a better life and then backslide to some primitive, inorganic state. There's a generative and progressive impulse on the one side that contributes to a better life and civilization, but there's also a contrary force pushing back from nature that counters that civilizing impulse. I think you can see this in certain place like here:

Thought, which all that brought us
Almost out of the barbarous dark, alone
Enabled civilization, is what alone
Steers the state toward a better life.
(Bold added, of course)

The poem does posit a "better life," rather than an endless shifting cycle of different states that are neither better nor worse. Leopardi genuinely appears to want his readers to embrace thought, sympathy, and justice in the poem. There is a realization that nature might be more powerful than these human impulses, but I don't think it makes them meaningless. I would say that Leopardi is really suggesting that we restore the "social bond/ Against the savagery of nature." Or, at least, that wish is what's giving the poem its energy. And the polemic is what's motivating so much of the rhetoric here. The opening epigraph makes Jesus's castigation of non-believers the model for the poem's attack on those who don't see the truth of "thought" and the "social bond/ Against the savagery of nature."

JBI

06-08-2010, 06:23 AM

I don't know if I agree - I think the better life could ironically be gestured as "no life" or death. There is a collection of works from his Zibaldone and philosophical papers translated as Thoughts that sheds light and provides an interesting context of the poem. Generally, within its frame, Leopardi seems to see death, which he was rather clear was coming for him by this point, as the sort of release; the end to the bitter life. I do not think he is rather being optimistic, but rather he is lying to himself openly, for the sake of creating a peace of mind which he both craves and abhors.

For instance, his whole career seems to be marked by a contradiction of rejection of religion, nihilism, and belief in the cruelty in nature on one hand, and then on the other hand, a yearning for a sort of religious experience, for a sort of familial/sexual experience that seems intertwined with religious imagery, and also a sense of the transient in nature.

Ultimately though, the regeneration you speak of seems to be in line with Hamlet's "To Be or Not to Be" soliloquy, which I believe Leopardi had read in the original if I am not mistaken, in that it gestures to a sort of peace and calmness in the end with death - nature prevailing restoring a calm emptiness to what was once the buzzing Pompeii - he very much is exaggerating his own experience through a rather giant image - the destruction of all.

That seems a problem with Leopardi's work, that he likes to project his own suffering as a human state, and his own lack of being loved as a human condition, and his own death and decay as a "human condition". If the poem is doing anything, it is taking a view of the world - creating a panoramic view of humanity, through the lens of his interior.

I am not too sure if the ending is gesturing to a hope, or rather ironically marking a peacefulness in the absolute destruction of his time period, a perhaps veiled reference for his death (without issue as they say), and the end to his "suffering."

Quark

06-09-2010, 12:58 AM

I am not too sure if the ending is gesturing to a hope, or rather ironically marking a peacefulness in the absolute destruction of his time period, a perhaps veiled reference for his death (without issue as they say), and the end to his "suffering."

Yeah, I don't think the poem is holding out much hope either. You're right that it project a bleak picture of human destiny. What I was saying, though, is that the poem does seem to believe that there are better and worse places to be, and that it's best to work to improve society when we can. Those lines that I quoted point to the benefits of thought. You're saying that there's a veiled reference to death lurking there, but you might want to explain that out more. Thought is usually considered the practice of an active mind--not one dead in oblivion. Later on the poem encourages "struggle"--another active role:

She's [nature] the one he calls enemy,
And believing the human family
Leagued to oppose her, as in truth it is
And has been from the start, he sees
As allies all men, embraces all
With unfeigned love, giving and expecting
Prompt assistance, useful aid
In the many hazards and lasting hurts
Of the common struggle

This sounds a bit too much for death. Throughout the poem, too, these active roles--whether struggling for the common good or appealing to though--recur frequently. I've quoted from two places, but I could pull many more. Leopardi talks of the "forg[ing]" the "social bond/ Against the savagery of nature." I think you're right that death lingers not far off from Leopardi's mind in place like these lines:

Who, without flinching, still can face
Our common plight, tell the truth
With an honest tongue,
Admit the evil lot we've been given
And the abject, impotent condition we're in;
Who shows himself great and full of grace
Under pressure, not adding to his miseries
The hate and hostility of his fellow-men

Now that sounds like preparing for death. You're certainly right that "our common plight" is probably just a thinly disguised mention of his own coming demise. I don't agree, though, that his approaching death leaves him nihilistic. I don't think death overwrites the other portions of the text where the speaker asks society to move toward a more rational and compassionate understanding. If Leopardi wanted us to write all of that off, I don't think he would have phrased the "common stuggle," "forg[ing] ... the social bond," and "thought" in such active terms.

That seems a problem with Leopardi's work, that he likes to project his own suffering as a human state, and his own lack of being loved as a human condition, and his own death and decay as a "human condition". If the poem is doing anything, it is taking a view of the world - creating a panoramic view of humanity, through the lens of his interior.

I read back over the poem today, and I think I agree that the biographical element is at least as strong as the polemic here. I'd back away from saying that it's just polemic that's motivating the verse. Really, Leopardi is coming to terms with his own death and incapabilities. I just don't think that's all that's going on in the poem. I still think the polemic element is in the poem. It's hard to read sections like the ones I posted above in a purely self-pitying, biographical context.

Ultimately though, the regeneration you speak of seems to be in line with Hamlet's "To Be or Not to Be" soliloquy, which I believe Leopardi had read in the original if I am not mistaken, in that it gestures to a sort of peace and calmness in the end with death - nature prevailing restoring a calm emptiness to what was once the buzzing Pompeii - he very much is exaggerating his own experience through a rather giant image - the destruction of all.

Two things here: I don't think Hamlet's soliloquy promises calmness in death, nor do I think Leopardi suggests nature will restore peace. Only if you stop reading nine lines into Hamlet's speech could you say that he's talking about calmness in death. After that, he continues: "For in that sleep of death what dreams may come/ When we have shuffled off this mortal coil/ Must give us pause" (III. i. 65-7). This is the "dread" of the "undiscovered country" that prevents people from pursuing death. Ultimately, death isn't calmness. It's dreadful dreams that will give us pause. As for "Broom or the Flower of the Desert," I'm not convinced that nature restores a calm emptiness. It seems like nature reduces the world to a horrible emptiness. Nature is not something that's embraced with open arms in the poem. Rather, it's something that's to be resisted.

I liked that you brought in the biographical elements to the poem. That was all stuff I didn't consider until you posted, but I think you're overstating your case case when you say we should read sections like the ones I posted in purely that light.

Quark

06-10-2010, 02:14 PM

That seems a problem with Leopardi's work, that he likes to project his own suffering as a human state, and his own lack of being loved as a human condition, and his own death and decay as a "human condition". If the poem is doing anything, it is taking a view of the world - creating a panoramic view of humanity, through the lens of his interior.

I never responded to the more evaluative part of your post, so I'll do that here. I didn't answer this part mostly because I agree with it. Leopardi does seem at his best when he keeps to the events of his life. "Saturday in the Village" and "Sunday Evening"--while taking up some of the same ideas--end up being much more subtle and, above all, believable. It's a little hard to take seriously the enormous claims of this poem when we know it's motivated so much by the misfortunes of his own life, rather an honest appraisal of Italian society. Or, I should say, that his own misfortunes unduly color his impressions of Italian society, and that weakens his polemic. Also, I didn't think the poem was that clever. "Saturday in the Village" and "Sunday Evening" wove together religious fervor, interpersonal love, a good knowledge of literary tradition, and the events of his childhood to create something quite interesting. "Broom" falls a little short of that.

Oh, and this thread needs a bump:

http://lifeboat.com/images/bump.sign.jpg
Very Deserved

Paulclem

06-10-2010, 02:43 PM

Ive read the poem through and just re-read the first 50 lines.

I The broom seems to represent an offering or a memoriam in the lines:

Nothing is found but ruin
Where you are rooted, gentle flower, and where,
As pitying other people's harm, you send
Your incense breathing perfume to the sky l 32-35

Which seems , in the light of the last stanza, to represent Leopardi's view, or perhaps an idealised self image in its personification as heroic:

That head of yours was never bowed before
In craven supplication and in vain
Never to the oppressor; never held erect
Either, in crazy pride towards the stars. l. 307-310

JBI

06-10-2010, 03:06 PM

I never responded to the more evaluative part of your post, so I'll do that here. I didn't answer this part mostly because I agree with it. Leopardi does seem at his best when he keeps to the events of his life. "Saturday in the Village" and "Sunday Evening"--while taking up some of the same ideas--end up being much more subtle and, above all, believable. It's a little hard to take seriously the enormous claims of this poem when we know it's motivated so much by the misfortunes of his own life, rather an honest appraisal of Italian society. Or, I should say, that his own misfortunes unduly color his impressions of Italian society, and that weakens his polemic. Also, I didn't think the poem was that clever. "Saturday in the Village" and "Sunday Evening" wove together religious fervor, interpersonal love, a good knowledge of literary tradition, and the events of his childhood to create something quite interesting. "Broom" falls a little short of that.

It's interesting though how he is read, as an object of the polemic, as a failed philosopher. From my understanding traditionally he is given to students around the age of 17 or 18 in classrooms after they had previously done two or so years dealing mostly with Medieval through Classicist poetry - he comes at a time where I think he is most resonant; that is for instance, when I first read him, and his pseudo-philosophy seems to carry a dark, bitter truth. Similar to how American (male) young adults seem to like Beat Movement authors and stuff sometimes with a darker theme. Also similar to how Hamlet is treated in high schools I guess.

From an academic view though, I think he is read from above, rather than from within, or "overheard" as they say, rather than heard. So his life, philosophy, and poetry become a case study, rather than an actual literal expression; nobody I think seriously agrees with him, but we read him, from my understanding of how he is generally read, through the lens of curiosity. His dark and morbid themes are interesting for their dark, morbid images, and for his bitterness, rather than for their real intellectual discussion, in the formal sense of polemic.

Quark

06-11-2010, 02:46 PM

Which seems , in the light of the last stanza, to represent Leopardi's view, or perhaps an idealised self image in its personification as heroic:

I think that's pretty safe to say. It's a little harder to tell why that's his position, and why he delivers it in this inversion of the pastoral idyll.

It's interesting though how he is read, as an object of the polemic, as a failed philosopher. From my understanding traditionally he is given to students around the age of 17 or 18 in classrooms after they had previously done two or so years dealing mostly with Medieval through Classicist poetry - he comes at a time where I think he is most resonant; that is for instance, when I first read him, and his pseudo-philosophy seems to carry a dark, bitter truth. Similar to how American (male) young adults seem to like Beat Movement authors and stuff sometimes with a darker theme. Also similar to how Hamlet is treated in high schools I guess.

From an academic view though, I think he is read from above, rather than from within, or "overheard" as they say, rather than heard. So his life, philosophy, and poetry become a case study, rather than an actual literal expression; nobody I think seriously agrees with him, but we read him, from my understanding of how he is generally read, through the lens of curiosity. His dark and morbid themes are interesting for their dark, morbid images, and for his bitterness, rather than for their real intellectual discussion, in the formal sense of polemic.

Are you talking about "Broom or the Flower of the Desert"? Or, are you referring to how the entirety of Leopardi's work is considered?