How best to word a poerty thread?

[Paulclem]

I'm asking this because I like the discussions on poetry, but I often find that the threads often consist of "I like this poem by..." with further posters agreeing and offering their favourites of that genre. Although this is fun, it does not offer the chance for deeper discussion.

On the other hand a thread will often be outside my reading experience, and, though I can read posters' examples and follow up myself, I don't really have the time to study to the depth I would like to in order to take part. St Lukes has posted such threads currently.

So, would my fellow posters prefer to discuss:

individual poems

small groups of poems

specific examples of a poet's work

The advantage of one of these would be a smaller reading task with a more focused discussion, but which could also be related to the poet's wider work.

What do you think?:biggrin5:

[JBI]

To break a few weeks absence from the forum, I think St. Lukes effort to be splendid - the poetry board now seems to be far more interesting than the General chat, and at least now it isn't just popular romantic poems that are dug out of thin anthologies of poetry being discussed.

As it is, I would be for more close reading of poetry - I think less poetry and more analysis is my preferable method, but alas, conversations often digress into just posting of other "favorites" with little time for actually reading. I got a poem recently from Virgil proposing maybe restarting the book club thread, and that seems like an interesting idea, as really I don't have much time to read the forum anymore, but for general threads, if I am really going to follow them, I think discussion is the only real point of interest left - as it is, whether posters like or dislike certain works has stopped to be of any real interest.

The main problem I find with these threads as it ends up being one or two posters only really reading, and the rest just ignore the thread, or, in a counter case, certain posters posting what some feel to be too "technical" analysis of poems, that leave certain posters daunted, or still yet, too name-drop heavy analysis of poetry as to also scare away new posters - I know, I've done it.

I'd be more for closer reading, but also for getting away from cliche works that have been popping up over and over again - Also get away from valuing works - I think unless somebody is challenging a preconceived notion, there really is no point in stating whether something is good or bad, unless it functions critically, such as discussing certain elements in a poem which are better than others - rating from 1-10 doesn't really go anywhere, especially if something is already canonical.

Seriously though, I no longer really read outside of esoteric areas of study now - Chinese history, literature and language textbooks, early Modern English poetry (1500-1600 or so), a little bit in Italian, and books that pertain to such fields. So I guess fewer poems would really help liven things - the narrower the scope, I find, the more interesting things seem to be.

[Paulclem]

To break a few weeks absence from the forum, I think St. Lukes effort to be splendid - the poetry board now seems to be far more interesting than the General chat, and at least now it isn't just popular romantic poems that are dug out of thin anthologies of poetry being discussed.

As it is, I would be for more close reading of poetry - I think less poetry and more analysis is my preferable method, but alas, conversations often digress into just posting of other "favorites" with little time for actually reading. I got a poem recently from Virgil proposing maybe restarting the book club thread, and that seems like an interesting idea, as really I don't have much time to read the forum anymore, but for general threads, if I am really going to follow them, I think discussion is the only real point of interest left - as it is, whether posters like or dislike certain works has stopped to be of any real interest.

The main problem I find with these threads as it ends up being one or two posters only really reading, and the rest just ignore the thread, or, in a counter case, certain posters posting what some feel to be too "technical" analysis of poems, that leave certain posters daunted, or still yet, too name-drop heavy analysis of poetry as to also scare away new posters - I know, I've done it.

I'd be more for closer reading, but also for getting away from cliche works that have been popping up over and over again - Also get away from valuing works - I think unless somebody is challenging a preconceived notion, there really is no point in stating whether something is good or bad, unless it functions critically, such as discussing certain elements in a poem which are better than others - rating from 1-10 doesn't really go anywhere, especially if something is already canonical.

Seriously though, I no longer really read outside of esoteric areas of study now - Chinese history, literature and language textbooks, early Modern English poetry (1500-1600 or so), a little bit in Italian, and books that pertain to such fields. So I guess fewer poems would really help liven things - the narrower the scope, I find, the more interesting things seem to be.

Like yourself, I've got little time too, which is why I couldn't engage in your Chinese poetry thread by reading up.

I would like to do some close reading too which is why I thought a thread with a few poems representing a poet's work or a genre might be a good idea. More esoteric poems might be best rather than the canonical ones which people have already formed opinions about and flood the thread with.

I agree that the I like/ I don't like/ rating threads aren't of much interest. What I'm looking for is focus with technical discussion. I'm looking to learn new stuff and explore unknown poetry in order to develop. :smile5:

[JBI]

I dunno - I just got a new text from a used bookstore of The Book of Songs (Shi Jing) in a rather good edition with good annotations - that's something which is accessible (more accessible than, lets say, Ancient Greek verse), but at the same time, nobody seems to want to discuss anything they don't already know well.

[Virgil]

Personally I prefer discussing a specific poem. One can dig into the details. Groups of poems or a thread dedcicated to a specific poet is a good idea, though I never see a real thorough discussion to occur. I liked the poetry book discussion thread we were doing last year. We would get into a particular poet and a particular book and we would spend a bit of time with one poem at a time. I like that.

[sixsmith]

I think focusing on a specific poem is really the only practical way to ensure substantive discussion. Perhaps, as Virgil suggests, we could work through a volume one by one.

[stlukesguild]

JBI... we've surely missed your thorny comments here. I agree that the "What's your favorite novel, poem, short story" posts grow thin after a while... although I will admit to being pulled in by those very sort of threads you mention: the poster challenging accepted critical notions (ie. Shakespeare or the Bible sucks). I agree that some of the finest threads I have participated in here were those which were formally or informally part of the poetry reading group in which we were able to get into some depth in reading poems and discussing them. I think that these were quite successful in allowing for a non-judgmental participation of those with quite different experiences and backgrounds. I agree that if it is expected that only those with a clear understanding of poetic scansion, poetic forms, and literary theory and theorists may participate... or may feel comfortable participating... we will probably find few takers on the proposition.

The problem, perhaps, becomes where to begin? We all have our own areas of expertise and our own comfort zones. Do we limit ourselves to English language poets only? I'm not personally in favor of this because I feel it ignores too much of merit from other cultures... yet I am not adverse to discussing an English language poet. Or do we choose to discuss a contemporary poet... one with whom we may not have the advantage of endless reams of critical analysis and judgment. But certainly I expect there are more than a few somewhat reticent to tackle the thornier contemporary literature.

If I might make a suggestion... perhaps we all might put forth a few possibilities... perhaps we might limit this to 3... of poets we have wanted to read but haven't yet got around to reading... or haven't read more than a few poems in passing. But I'm open to other ideas.

[JBI]

I don't know - right now, for instance, I am interested in Chinese poetry, Japanese poetry, and am starting to kindle an interest in Arabic verse. To be honest I doubt I would participate much in a discussion of something I am familiar with, as lately I have found it tedious to argue over things when my opinions are so solidly grounded, and I am unable to budge - to be honest, I think I am going to give up arguing on this forum in general, as it will either waste time, or lead to me being band, or both.

The problem with translation is that one has to agree on translation though - if somebody reads the original, they are privy to the original, which changes the whole conversation. But on top of that though, I no longer am really reading in English besides scholarship and 16th century authors, and prefer instead to expand my understanding, as I pretty much have exhausted myself with some of the more common poets.

The whole discussion thing usually descends into obscurity though, from my experience, if it isn't a well known poet, as, unless a volume is bought, people will not participate, and if a volume is bought, those who participate will be limited to those who have bought the volume.

[mortalterror]

But certainly I expect there are more than a few somewhat reticent to tackle the thornier contemporary literature.
I opted out of the last one because I thought the poet sucked and wasn't worth my time. I'd rather read more Firdawsi, Rumi, Hafiz, Li Po, Tu Fu, Po Chu-i, Wang Wei, Nizami, Wilmot, Jayadeva, Kabir, Ovid, and Petrarch. These guys are known quantities and I've got the first two volumes of Dream of the Red Chamber on my shelf. I have nothing against modern if it means Rilke or Neruda, but some obscure Canadian poet doesn't even peak my interest.

My favorite posts on this board are Petrarch's comments on Shakespeare or yours on Baudelaire. Like JBI, I don't read all the threads anymore either. Catching up on my friends list is time consuming enough.

[Jozanny]

I am guilty of a little skimming, although I have the gist of this thread, and Paul, one would think a person in my situation would have the time for close readings and discussions, but I don't, and for whatever reason, scheduled readings of contemporary poets make me unhappy. I tried to do the poetry book club, and could find no fault in terms of the selections, but I revolted against continuing, and this is probably due to my psychological resentment of how modern poets get etched into the canon, and my sort of semi-invisible notch on the totem pole.

I am also exceedingly selective when it comes to poetry I actually enjoy, and have no defense for this, it is just the way I am. I have never really cared for Yeats, respect Frost but don't become aroused by him--and that is what I need a poet's work to do for me, make me feel the poetry like a sucker punch, and I am usually better off finding those jewels for myself, like my old buddy Al Maginnes, who had a great piece up on the poetry site I go to now and then which features one living poet a day, which I need to put back in my bookmarks btw; thanks for reminding me, and good luck.

****
It occurred to me that giving Poetry Daily (http://poems.com/) a plug now and again might be nice, as they are near and dear to me.

[Paulclem]

There seems to be a problem with obtaining the same translations or anthologies, though it looks as though there is general agreement on what not to discuss - the known quantities where opinions have already been formed.

What about using St Luke's idea of putting forth some less well known poets with a sample of poems to work through sourced from the internet? If we used the same source it would solve the translation problem - if it was agreed that this was a good version - and it would make it accessible for those of us with less time to read and study.

What do you think? Any suggestions as a starter?

[LitNetIsGreat]

An excellent idea. I think a single poem or group of poems from one poet would work best. I don't think that it is necessarily a problem regarding different translations or if someone can read in the original language, for me this only adds new light to the piece - or at least it doesn't detract from it that much.

The problem for me in the past is that coming out of my comfort zone, which is basically British when it comes down to it, is that I feel like I am missing out on so much historical and philosophical context which is so important for a fuller reading and understanding of other texts or cultures. This is probably why in the past I have limited myself to English or close continental translations because I feel that I could only add what would probably feel like personal or superficial observations, just by taking the piece in isolation. Clearly, I'd like develop from this lop-sided view of literature and develop a wider understanding, but as ever, time is always the issue and you end up saying "I'll do that, after I've done that, and that, and that, and read that ..."

Anyway, so yes, I think a less well known poet or group of poets, non-English, but I think someone not too obscure - maybe something in the middle, someone who deserves better recognition, someone a little overlooked or underrated perhaps?

[mortalterror]

I'd love to discuss Firdawsi's Book of Kings http://www.archive.org/details/shahnama01firduoft . Seriously, this guy is like the Shakespeare of the Middle East.

[JBI]

I'd love to discuss Firdawsi's Book of Kings http://www.archive.org/details/shahnama01firduoft . Seriously, this guy is like the Shakespeare of the Middle East.

You miss the point though that that is a super long text, I wouldn't be adverse to discussing certain parts, but honestly, I don't have the time I used to to read thick volumes cover to cover unless they relate to my field.

[OrphanPip]

Couldn't a compromise be reached. We could choose broad categories for each month and then nominate within those categories, like the regular book club. Occasionally some people may feel left out certain months, but for the most part we should be able to choose poetry that most people are interested in.

A good place to start would be choosing 10 general categories (e.g. Chinese, Arabic, Persian, Japanese, Medieval French, or poets/movement/periods).

Edit: My knowledge of poetry beyond French and English is rather limited so I would be happy for any motivation to expand my knowledge.

[JBI]

I'm for nominating three, and then have a several bracket elimination to a few texts where one cannot vote on a book they nominated, but can promote it - though again, another problem is the amount of people voting is still quite scant.

[OrphanPip]

I'm for nominating three, and then have a several bracket elimination to a few texts where one cannot vote on a book they nominated, but can promote it - though again, another problem is the amount of people voting is still quite scant.

Should the nominations be limited to a category, or will people simply nominate 3 poets they are interested in from any period or culture?

I agree with the voting rules you propose.

I can't imagine a poetry reading club getting all that many participants to begin with, probably going to have to just deal with a small group.

[Paulclem]

Couldn't a compromise be reached. We could choose broad categories for each month and then nominate within those categories, like the regular book club. Occasionally some people may feel left out certain months, but for the most part we should be able to choose poetry that most people are interested in.

A good place to start would be choosing 10 general categories (e.g. Chinese, Arabic, Persian, Japanese, Medieval French, or poets/movement/periods).

Edit: My knowledge of poetry beyond French and English is rather limited so I would be happy for any motivation to expand my knowledge.

I feel the same way about the categories of poetry, and I want to expand my knowledge. I think we should start with a limited number, as JBI suggests, just for the sake of smplicity given the numbers of posters who are likely to be involved.

When we've worked through those, then there'll be scope to study the others with a model to apply.

[JBI]

I'm for nominating a book more than a category, but whichever is fine. If we are nominating categories, than might as well limit it to one nomination a person.

[OrphanPip]

3 categories (or books) to start with works for me. I'll probably leave the nominations up to others.

[stlukesguild]

The concern which JBI and others have expressed in the past is that those who vote need to participate. Its sort of bothersome to find that all the books you are most interested in end up voted out by those who in the end make no effort to participate in the discussion. Anyway... shall we begin nominations with a new thread?

[JBI]

The concern which JBI and others have expressed in the past is that those who vote need to participate. Its sort of bothersome to find that all the books you are most interested in end up voted out by those who in the end make no effort to participate in the discussion. Anyway... shall we begin nominations with a new thread?

Alright, begin I guess, you make the thread, I'll post after.

[Jozanny]

Well, maybe I should explain more simply without getting twisted up in knots: I do not mind taking chances on the forum book club with genre fiction, but I feel differently about poetry and I'm harder on poets, don't want to spend money on collections that may not serve me to be read again and again.

Not ever poet holds this view, but I cannot simply divide my role as a poet in my own right and a reader who can remove her constructive participation in the creation of the work, so if I ever join in it would be once in a great while.