Alice and Dorothy; Adventures in the Wonderful World of Children’s Literature

[Sancho]

Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank, and having nothing to do; once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, “and what is the use of a book,” thought Alice, “without pictures or conversations?”

Amen to that, Alice.

So, There I was, at my local bookstore, in a more juvenile mood than usual, and they’re playing Modest Mussorgsky’s Night on Bald Mountain over the PA. So I’m trying my best to get in the mood for a Russian novel, but it just won’t take. Well I get to thinking: Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov had his hands all over that piece and I’ve always enjoyed his symphony, Scheherazade. Then I remembered telling that to our Scheherazade on this web site some time ago, to which she suggested the collection, 1001 Arabian Nights. So I went in search of that book. Fortuitously I found it on a table with a bunch of other books and a sign that said, “Buy 2 and get 1 for Free.” So I did. In fact, I got a little carried away and wound up walking out of there with:

The Arabian Nights

Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, by Lewis Carroll

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, by L. Frank Baum

Aesop’s Fables

Grimm’s Fairy Tales, by The Brothers Grimm

The Secret Garden, by Frances Hodgson Burnett

And so for past couple of weeks I’ve been consuming these stories like a crazed dope fiend. (Umm, that may have been an inappropriate simile for a thread on children’s books. Sorry.) At any rate, I’ve been enjoying these stories immensely. It seems to me, for a children’s story to work, it primarily must be able to hold a child’s interest and children have notoriously short attention spans. Therefore, these stories must, first and foremost, be great stories.

I guess my question is this: Do children still have bed-time stories read to them? I’m not a parent and my dog ain’t the literary type, so for me it’s a moot point, but do you-all read stories to your kids, or your grand-kids, or maybe your kid-brothers? Has anyone here recently read these books? Has anyone tried writing children’s stories or tried devising their own bedtime or campfire stories?

[The Comedian]

Hey Sancho --

You know, your list there reminded me of how much I want to read the original Bamm Wizard of Oz novel. I'll have to put it on my list.

To your question, I have two kids and I read to them every night for about 1/2 hour before bed. They're too young for the titles that you list here (my kids are ages 5 & 2). And we're just getting into "chapter books" with the oldest one. But, in time I'm sure that we'll read more and more complicated stuff.

Each of 'em really enjoys stories, especially the oldest. Sometimes she asks me to "make up" a story to tell her. Then she tells me what the characters in the story have to be: "tell me a story about a rock, a yellow bunny, and cup of water" she'll say.

It's weird. I love reading, but honestly, I love making up these stories better. Maybe I'll have to write some down.

[Sancho]

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz struck me as the perfect bed-time story. I could almost hear Frank Baum telling the story as I read it. The bio on him said he loved to tell stories to children and was good at it. Each chapter is only a few pages long, so it came in perfect bite-sized pieces.

[WingedWolf]

I too have been enjoying children's literature lately. I just finished reading The Chronicles of Narnia series. There was an interesting article at the end of the collection, "On Three Ways of Writing for Children." In this article Lewis explores why we (children and adults) are fascinated by children's literature and the unique perspective of a child and how it translates to literature. Definitely an interesting read for anyone who likes writing or reading children's books.

[kasie]

Yes, write them down, Comedian, or you will forget them. Many of the classic stories for children were originally written for the authors' own children. You may already have made your fortune - and fame - without knowing it.

I used to read to my class every day - it made a similar quiet rounding off to the day as a bed-time story. Even the older (9/11 yr olds) were indignant if storytime had to be cut for some reason and there's nothing quite like closing the book at a dramatic point and saying '...And tomorrow, we'll find out what happens next', then having children who were quite able to read for themselves trying to sneak a preview of the next chapter from the book lying on my desk, not to mention having tussles over who was going to be the first to borrow the book to read for themselves when the class reading was finished.

[Katy North]

Don't stop at The Wonderful Wizard of Oz! That's just the first book in Baum's amazing series! There's also "The Land of Oz", "Ozma of Oz", "The Emerald City of Oz", and "The Scarecrow of Oz" to name just a few... and if you're a fan of illustrations, the illustrations in the later books are even more whimsical and fit his style of writing better than those in the first book. Dr. Doolittle was also a great series of books in my opinion, though there are some "racist" bits that might need some explaining to the little ones. The Chronicles of Narnia are also beautiful (I read the entire series about 11 times growing up).

I've said this in another thread but I'll repeat it here because I'm a young mom and love to brag about my son:p ... my son is only two but he already loves books... after I read to him he'll take the book from me and "read" the story back to me... mostly it's jumbled jargon with a few words scattered here and there, but I love the fact that he already knows reading is important!

[Sancho]

That’s one of the great things about this website: open one door, and you find 5 or 10 more doors that need opening. So I'm off to buy the Narnia Series.

Katy, I love that story about your 2-year-old – hooked on books already. My grandfather was the story-teller in our house when I was growing up. He had the patience for it as well as a real story-telling knack. In no time that man would have us kids all hooting and hollering and tearing around the house with our hair on fire. I wish he’d written some of those stories down. So anyway, I agree with kasie, Comedian, you ought to consider writing down some of those stories. Not everyone has the ability to imagine stories.

Someone once asked Anton Chekhov where he got his ideas; he said something like, “stories are everywhere,” and then he picked up an ashtray and said, “Tomorrow I’ll write a story called, The Ashtray.”

[Veho]

I read The Chronicles of Narnia a few years ago and remember enjoying them immensely. The Horse and His Boy was my favourite, if I remember rightly.

I bought a copy of the Grimm fairy tales a few weeks ago. I'd read that they were quite dark, but I wasn't expecting a step-mother cutting her step-son's head off! It actually made me laugh because it's just so matter-of-fact with it.

[Sancho]

Some of those Brothers Grimm folk tales certainly are grim. I think the idea with a few of them was a sort of 19th century, German, scared-straight program. Keep the little nippers in line, so to speak.

[stlukesguild]

I question limiting what some might refer to as "children's literature" to children. Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass, The Wizard of Oz, The Arabian Nights, Aesop's Fables, Grimm's Fairy Tales, and such literature may have been read and enjoyed by children (often is edited forms) for generations... but they are just as enjoyable to the adult reader. To this collection I would add books such as Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, the "Nonsense" poems of Edward Lear and Christian Morgenstern, certain sections of the Bible, a good portion of Italo Calvino's work... not limited to his collection of Italian Folktales but also including Cosmicomics, The Baron in the Trees, even Invisble Cities... and surely we cannot forget LeFontine, Gulliver's Travels, Hans Christian Anderson, etc...

All such literature... rooted in fable, fairy tale, parable, and folk tale... strikes me as being something of the core of why we read and write: a love of story-telling, fantasy, the imagination, and the transcendent nature of language. The best of such literature strikes us as containing depths far greater than we might first imagine... reading as a child. Honestly, the folk tale/fairy tale/parable/fable/fantasy strain of literature has long held far more fascination for me than realism which undoubtedly is one reason I am far more enamored of works such as Ovid's Metamorphoses, Rabelais' Gargantua,Firdowsi's Shahnameh, The Arabian Nights, Swift's Gulliver's Travels, E.T.A. Hoffmann, Jan Potocki's Manuscript Found in Saragossa, Cervantes' Don Quixote, Kafka,Poe, Hawthorne, Gautier, J.L. Borges, and Italo Calvino than I am with most realist or naturalistic novels. Indeed... its may be the dominance of the naturalistic novel that keeps me from reading many contemporary novelists and focused more upon poetry.:confused:

My own art is far more inspired by the fantastic/fantasy strain than it is by realism. I have long been enamored by the paintings of Bosch and Breughel and William Blake... but also by such Modern artists as Paul Klee:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4310117997_b11ddb90fc_o.jpg
Dream City

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4310854738_2eaf0d31b4_o.jpg
Battle Scene from the Comic Fantastic Opera "The Seafarer"

and Max Beckamann:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/4310854768_f9c75eba3d_o.jpg
The Actors

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2797/4310854784_a545e4b9c5_o.jpg
The Actors- Installation View

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4310118349_f51845880e_o.jpg
Bird's Hell

Both of these artist's employed (in very different manners) artistic elements that suggested the fantastic, the fairy tale, the fable... even the art of children... and yet like all of the works discussed, there are most assuredly elements that go well beyond childhood revelries. My own interest in such literature and art has led me to a current exploration of the use of themes drawn from such "children's literature" as Alice in Wonderland and various tales by Hans Christian Andersen and the employment of elements of children's art and "folk" art.

[wlz]

"I guess my question is this: Do children still have bed-time stories read to them? I’m not a parent and my dog ain’t the literary type, so for me it’s a moot point, but do you-all read stories to your kids, or your grand-kids, or maybe your kid-brothers? Has anyone here recently read these books? Has anyone tried writing children’s stories or tried devising their own bedtime or campfire stories?"

Campfire stories. Now there's a good and interesting idea for a thread.

PLEASE WATCH:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUf7Is4zAQQ

I hope you enjoy this Sancho!

[Mariamosis]

I don't have a little sibling, cousin, child, or any children in my life, however my parents used to read to me. (of course that was 20 some years ago, but I still consider myself young) When I have children they will definitely be getting read to.

I sometimes read selections of a book to my fiance. Typically I don't read children's literature, although the other day I did read him "Sing a Song o'Sixpence" from Frank Baum's "Mother Goose in Prose".

My mother used to make up stories to my brother and myself. They were a series of stories about a village of field mice, their heirarchy, and all of their other animal friends and enemies. She would have them escaping from owls and other predatory creatures. I suppose they were similar to Brian Jacques "Redwall" series. On a road trip we would always beg for a "Field Mouse Story". :)

[TheFifthElement]

Sancho, both my children have had bedtime stories every night. My son stopped at around the age of 9 when he started reading to himself, but before then it was every night. We read the entire Chronicles of Narnia over the course of about 9 months, but there have been other books, so many. He particularly enjoyed the Thomas the Tank Engine stories.

My daughter and I are currently reading the Winnie the Pooh stories. I think I enjoy them more than she does, they are so funny and so sweet. Other than that we have enjoyed many picture books: The Gruffalo, Emily Brown and the Thing, Charlie and Lola, and some rather more macabre picture books like Egg Drop and The Spider and the Fly. She also enjoyed a short story book which I had read when I was a child, our copy is old and battered and falling to pieces but much loved, called The Kingdom under the Sea by Joan Aitken. And then there is, of course, the stories of Roald Dahl - she loves The Enormous Crocodile and The Fantastic Mr Fox and The Giraffe and the Pelly and Me particularly. I'm sure it helps children develop their own reading skills; certainly my two have taken to reading without any apparent difficulty, but we have made it a big part of their lives.

Story time is one of my favourite times of day. It is a really settling, absorbing time. The children snuggle down into bed and it is warm and cosy and you can cuddle up together under the covers and then is just you and them in the semi-darkness and a wonderful story and the promise of sweet dreams to follow...

[applepie]

Every night I read. I'm like Comedian, I've two children who are 3 and 6 years old, so the titles above were a bit old for them. I have read shortened versions of Wind in the Willows. I've also thought of getting them Arabian Nights since it is multiple tales I can read. I've a copy of Grimm's Fairy Tales sitting in my closet for when they are old enough. With their active imaginations, I'm not too certain that they're quite ready for the original tales;) We don't read a lot of chapter books because my youngest can't remember the story from day to day. My son is reading chapter stories on his own, but I think the mentioned titles are still a little beyond his level.

[Sancho]

Thanks everybody for the links. I truly enjoyed them. It made me think that maybe I’ve tried to categorize art forms too much when there is really a lot of overlap and blending of literature, visual art, music, and theater. Also I’m heartened to hear that, at least amongst the members of this club, parents are still reading to their children.

I’m glad stlukesguild brought up the Mark Twain books. The Adventures of Tom Sawyer was the first real book I read, and it was the book that hooked me on reading for life. I was probably 8 or 9. I read it in the evenings after school. During the day I’d be sitting in the classroom, wondering what was going on with Tom and Huck and Becky, and wanting badly to get back to the book. I’ve read it several times since and each time I’ve found that it still resonates, albeit on a different level. The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn I didn’t understand (or enjoy) until I was older – after I’d already lit out for the territories.

I think Dorothy and Alice may be somewhat analogous to Tom and Huck, in that one is a book for children (although still enjoyed by adults) and the other is a book for adults about children.



All such literature... rooted in fable, fairy tale, parable, and folk tale... strikes me as being something of the core of why we read and write: a love of story-telling, fantasy, the imagination, and the transcendent nature of language.

Well said, mon frére. We all seem to know these stories. They give us a sort of foundation to the shared experience of being human. They seem to transcend not only language and culture but generation and longitude as well. Speaking of latitude/longitude, ever since I can remember, a popular tradition in my region has been: ghost stories. There are great collections of ghost stories from the Carolinas, Appalachia, and the lowland swamps of Georgia. They used to scare bejesus out of me when I was little.

[Indian Boy]

Just wanted to add one title to that list of great childrens books. In my opinion no childrens book compares to J.M. Barrie's 'Peter Pan'. In terms of holding a child's attention you have it all- flying children high on fairy dust, pirates with hooks and pirate ships, red-skin indians, lost boys, a mermaid lagoon, etc. And the one thing about this book is that in a way it lacks a lengthy storyline that has to be followed closely. Rather each section of the book can be read as it's own minor story. I'd say that's pretty good if reading to your kid for half and hour at the end of the night is your thing. And in addition, if you're a parent reading to a child, 'Peter Pan' has that element to it that can be enjoyed on an adult level too, so please, don't ignore the greatest children's book of all time.

[Whifflingpin]

"Campfire stories. Now there's a good and interesting idea for a thread."

My scary camp-fire stories have sent a few youths cowering into the dark over the years. Most recently last week-end.*

I ought to write them down - my wife has just reminded me of one that gave her sleepless nights - it had a character who was carrying a dead body on his back and rigor mortis set in and ... - I've long forgotten the tale, but she's shivered at that for over three decades.

But I read rather more pleasant bed-time stories to my children up to the time that they could read for themselves, and now read to my grandchildren. Story followed by songs.


*OK, I've written it down in the General Writing forum - see Haggises - and add your own favourites if you like.

[applepie]

Just wanted to add one title to that list of great childrens books. In my opinion no childrens book compares to J.M. Barrie's 'Peter Pan'. In terms of holding a child's attention you have it all- flying children high on fairy dust, pirates with hooks and pirate ships, red-skin indians, lost boys, a mermaid lagoon, etc. And the one thing about this book is that in a way it lacks a lengthy storyline that has to be followed closely. Rather each section of the book can be read as it's own minor story. I'd say that's pretty good if reading to your kid for half and hour at the end of the night is your thing. And in addition, if you're a parent reading to a child, 'Peter Pan' has that element to it that can be enjoyed on an adult level too, so please, don't ignore the greatest children's book of all time.

Thank you for this:) I'll shamefully admit that I had forgotten all about Peter Pan. Now I have the need to go pick it up and read it to my little ones. I did just read a more original version of The Little Mermaid to my kids :lol: Lots of questions on that one since it was a fairly gruesome tale. My 3 year old wanted to know why she stabbed herself, and then we (Me and both my kids) had a good discussion about that.

[Sancho]

This thread keeps getting curiouser and curiouser.

One surprise for me while reading The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was that it did not take long at all to get the image of Judy Garland out of my head. First of all, Frank Baum’s Dorothy was much younger than the movie actress. Next, the book’s Dorothy seemed to have a clearer sense of right and wrong that the Dorothy of the film. I think a staple of children’s books is a protagonist through whom children can live vicariously, someone who chooses the same course of action they would choose in a given situation. The movie was aimed more at adults. Here’s a difference I noticed: In the movie when Judy Garland melts the Wicked Witch of the West, she is shocked and apologizes, but when Frank Baum’s Dorothy dumps the pail of water on the witch there is no regret: “Steal my shoe!? Mess with my dog!? You’re messing with me now…you witch!” The quote is a Sancho interpretation, of course. I saw a little Vito Corleone in Dorothy in that scene.

[Katy North]

I agree, there is no comparison between the Wizard of Oz by Baum and The movie. One of the most essential differences that I think you missed Sancho, is that in the book, the Land of Oz is undisputably real (the reason why no one knows about Oz is that it's surrounded by a big, deadly desert), and in the Judy Garland movie, the Land of Oz is a by product of what appears to be a concussion.

I prefer the books. I like my fairly-lands to be real. :p

[Whifflingpin]

"I like my fairly-lands to be real."

Agreed - explaining it all away as a dream is just a cheat.

[JuniperWoolf]

My mom mostly read little Bernstein Bears books to me and all that, but I had an uncle buy Aesop for me and read it to myself. I really loved it, the language was like nothing I'd ever seen until then and made me feel strange and I dug how it was all about animals. I liked the pictures too. I still remember some of the stories, even though that was over fifteen years ago. There was this one about a chicken that found a jewel then tossed it aside because he'd rather have corn, and I was all like "well he could buy lots of corn with that, what an idiot."

[Janine]

I started a thread awhile back nearly identical to this one, or at least it would compliment this thread, on children's literature. Basically, my thread was to point out the talented illustrators and beautiful illustrations of children's books. I will go retrieve the thread link, if you woud all like to check it out and comment. One of the illustrator and the author of "Wizard of Oz."

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39013

The thread is called "The Magical World of Children's Book Illustrations". I have been trying to revive this thread from time to time; maybe this is just the boost it needs.

[Sancho]

Good point, Katy

Also there was an entire section of the book that the movie left out. I’d’ve liked to have seen what Hollywood could do with the Quadlings. And speaking of which, (nice thread Janine) the book was well worth its price if only for W.W. Denslow’s illustration of the Scarecrow getting T-boned by a Quadling.

[If I were less inept, I could figure out how to attach the picture here.]

That said, I do truly love the movie. It is arguably one of the best movies ever made. But I’m also with you guys: I’m usually disappointed with a movie after reading the book. In this case however, I saw the movie first, so the book seemed to fill in a lot of what the movie left out. Anyway, comparing a movie to a novel is probably an unfair comparison. They do different things well. So I try to enjoy a movie for the sake of the movie and a book for the sake of the book.

Here’s a famous quote about different art forms: “Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.” By - who knows? (Elvis Costello gets credit for it a lot)