Ayn Rand?!

[heethar73]

Why is Ayn Rand not one of the authors listed on this site? Atlas Shrugged is incredible! I haven't read the Fountainhead yet, but I hear it is amazing as well. Just a side note, I suppose, but it's really been bothering me!

[blazeofglory]

Why is Ayn Rand not one of the authors listed on this site? Atlas Shrugged is incredible! I haven't read the Fountainhead yet, but I hear it is amazing as well. Just a side note, I suppose, but it's really been bothering me!

Of course she merits to be mentioned here. She was a fabulous writer and had a great readership throughout the world and I never get tired of reading and appreciating what she wrote in point of fact. She is really matchless.

Only her ideas of capitalism is not digested to me. Capitalism is good but not to the extent and in the manner she had been emphatic about it.

Today economists have agreed that uncontrolled or regulated capitalism is not good and to let market forces do not work well.

As a writer she is matchless but as a political philosopher she was a failure.

[OrphanPip]

I don't think she's matchless as an author, frankly I find her terrible. Also, it's more than just capitalism she advocates, it's pure self-interested libertarianism.

Anyway, why she isn't listed is probably because she's not yet in the public domain, thus none of her works are available on the site. She won't be entering the public domain for near 50 years also, so many of us won't live to see the day either.

[DanielBenoit]

There's been many other Ayn Rand threads with the same complaints or compliments about her works.

My problem with her philosophy is not that she advocates rational egoism (for other philosophers have), but the dogmatic narrow mindedness of it. And man are her views outdated. I mean, that's what her critics would say and she would respond with something like "well if it's old, does that make it less true?" or something like that. But to answer her question, well, yes. New ideas evolve with the times, Aristotle's Metaphysics was outdated by Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, and that was outdated by existential philosophy, and that was outdated by deconstruction and so on and on.

Anyway, as far as her writing goes I will admit that she is a skilled writer (understand the limits of the word) but is rather like an overly passionate teenager who thinks he/she has got it all figured out. Her critiques of Kant are so far off. And while I can stand a couple pages of her impassioned preaching, I found one-thousand pages of it to be obnoxious to say the least. She can create semi-interesting situations for her protaganists, but they themselves are so shallow and obvious that the troubled and confused antagonists feel far more developed and interesting, in fact, they were the only reasons that I read her.

[dfloyd]

because her anti-altruistic philosphy of rampant captalism conquering all is out moded to say the least. Her writing seems to appeal more to a younger set who are looking for an icon to hold onto and look up to. I myself find her fictional writing laborious and tedious. She is discussed on many threads, and some do find her interesting. If you like her, read her; but beware she is abhored by many critics, if that means anything to you.

[Voivod30]

I've tried reading Fountain Head a few times and have yet to get very far. However, I wouldn't dare judge an author one way the other based on a few pages. I bought We The Living a few weeks ago and will probably read it soon. I'm not too familiar with her political views but her anti-fascism stance is something I can agree with. I saw a documentary about her a few years ago and I think her views are understandable based on her past. I've seem part of the film version of The Fountainhead and for what it's worth the speech at the end is quite well done. I also find it interesting that to some extent both the extreme liberals and extreme conservatives seem to embrace her. It also bugs me when people prounce her name as Ann Rand for some reason.

[mal4mac]

And it's not just liberal critics who think her writing is rubbish.

In the National Review, conservative author Whittaker Chambers called Atlas Shrugged book "sophomoric" and "remarkably silly", and declared that it "can be called a novel only by devaluing the term". He described the tone of the book as "shrillness without reprieve" and accused Rand of supporting the same godless system as the Soviets.

[Dinkleberry2010]

dfloyd, I disagree with your statement that her (Ayn Rand) anti-altruistic philosophy of rampant capitalism conquering all is out moded. Rand was not against altruism; she was against forced altruism where one is literally forced by government or law to be altruistic. And she didn't advocate a rampant capitalism without restraint of any kind, and she didn't believe that capitalism would conquer all.

I find her work interesting and thought-provoking, and her writng is not tedious. For the most part, she wrote well. She was not a bad writer.

[DanielBenoit]

And it's not just liberal critics who think her writing is rubbish.

In the National Review, conservative author Whittaker Chambers called Atlas Shrugged book "sophomoric" and "remarkably silly", and declared that it "can be called a novel only by devaluing the term". He described the tone of the book as "shrillness without reprieve" and accused Rand of supporting the same godless system as the Soviets.

While I didn't care for Atlas Shrugged, that review is absolute rubbish. Rand was almost militantly anti-communist.


dfloyd, I disagree with your statement that her (Ayn Rand) anti-altruistic philosophy of rampant capitalism conquering all is out moded. Rand was not against altruism; she was against forced altruism where one is literally forced by government or law to be altruistic. And she didn't advocate a rampant capitalism without restraint of any kind, and she didn't believe that capitalism would conquer all.

I find her work interesting and thought-provoking, and her writng is not tedious. For the most part, she wrote well. She is not a bad writer.

No, Rand supported unrestrained laizze-faire capitalism as well as pure rational egoism, she considered altruism to be the root of all evil. Just read a page of Atlas Shrugged. This is coming from an ex-Randian who read her until he discovered real literature and philosophy.

[applepie]

Why is Ayn Rand not one of the authors listed on this site? Atlas Shrugged is incredible! I haven't read the Fountainhead yet, but I hear it is amazing as well. Just a side note, I suppose, but it's really been bothering me!

You can find plenty of threads about Rand, but I think the biggest reason is that Rand literature is not in the public domain yet. Most of the authors listed have works that can be accessed, legally, free of charge as e-resources. Rand's work is still held under copyright I believe :)

[heethar73]

I don't think she's matchless as an author, frankly I find her terrible. Also, it's more than just capitalism she advocates, it's pure self-interested libertarianism.

Have you read Atlas Shrugged? It's captivating. I'm not sure how you could say she's terrible. What kind of literature are you interested in?

[Voivod30]

I think some of this criticism is a bit unfair. It seems that people dislike her based on her views and not her writing style. Just because you don't like her view point that doesn't equate to her being a bad writer. Also like the poster above said the Soviet style communism (or any implemented communism) comment is so absolutely false it's rediculous. Like I posted above I don't know a lot about her views but I do know that she was vehemently against the Soviet regime and any other fascist order disguised as communism and or socialism.

[Uberzensch]

Her writing is pretty awful. I've read Anthem, the Fountainhead, and Atlas Shrugged. The Fountainhead was my favorite, as far as literature goes. Anthem was like something a college student writes in an introductory writing course. Atlas Shrugged is a very basic story stretched too thinly over a repetitive political argument. As a novel, as literature, as a story, it is far too simple for its 1200 pages. By the time you get to Galt's speech, which takes about 50 pages, you've already heard everything he's going to say about 4-5 times.

If you ignore any politics, and try to be impartial to any political attachment you have to ti, it's just not a very well-written story.

[PeeSlowlyAndSee]

This thread leaves me conflicted.

I've been thinking about reading either "Atlas Shrugged" or "The Fountainhead", but it seems people are split about her writing skills.

Some people are saying she's flat-out horrible and others say she's very skilled--which is it?

It takes extreme (Read: I'm talking mondo-extreme) effort on my part to read long and/or complex books, and so it would be nice to know what I'm getting myself into before I commit to reading one.

[applepie]

This thread leaves me conflicted.

I've been thinking about reading either "Atlas Shrugged" or "The Fountainhead", but it seems people are split about her writing skills.

Some people are saying she's flat-out horrible and others say she's very skilled--which is it?

It takes extreme (Read: I'm talking mondo-extreme) effort on my part to read long and/or complex books, and so it would be nice to know what I'm getting myself into before I commit to reading one.

While I agree with very little of Rand's philosophy, I greatly enjoyed "Atlas Shrugged". It was one of those novel that was difficult to get through because of its length mostly. It can be slow at times to read, but when I finished the first time I was glad to have read it. It is one of those books that really pushes the reader to think, and it helped to clear up many of my own views. To give you a better idea, I've since read it likely a dozen times. It's one of those books that I pull out when I need to see my own clarity. Hope this helps.

[PeeSlowlyAndSee]

Ahh, I see; thank you.
I might mosey on down to the library and check it out if they have it.

[Dinkleberry2010]

Rand's work The Virtue of Selfishness is a good introduction to her work, her philosophy, and her writing skill, as well as being a short work--it's about a hundred pages.

[Babbalanja]

This thread leaves me conflicted.

I've been thinking about reading either "Atlas Shrugged" or "The Fountainhead", but it seems people are split about her writing skills.

Some people are saying she's flat-out horrible and others say she's very skilled--which is it?
She's horrible.

I'll admit, I couldn't make it through The Fountainhead because after a while I was just reading it to see what sort of awkward construction she would come up with next.

Regards,

Istvan

[mal4mac]

Think of a critic or writer you admire, say Gore Vidal, and type his/her name into Google along with "Ayn Rand". Now you might get to see what your favourite critic thinks of Rand. I tried this and the first entry was titled:

Gore Vidal on Why Ayn Rand Sucks :)

Quotes:

"Ayn Rand is a rhetorician who writes novels I have never been able to read."

"This odd little woman is attempting to give a moral sanction to greed and self interest, and to pull it off she must at times indulge in purest Orwellian newspeak of the “freedom is slavery” sort."

"She has a great attraction for simple people who are puzzled by organized society, who object to paying taxes, who dislike the “welfare” state, who feel guilt at the thought of the suffering of others but who would like to harden their hearts. For them, she has an enticing prescription: altruism is the root of all evil, self-interest is the only good, and if you’re dumb or incompetent that’s your lookout."

"She has declared war not only on Marx but on Christ. Now, although my own enthusiasm for the various systems evolved in the names of those two figures is limited, I doubt if even the most anti-Christian free-thinker would want to deny the ethical value of Christ in the Gospels... For to justify and extol human greed and egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil. For one thing, it is gratuitous to advise any human being to look out for himself. You can be sure that he will. It is far more difficult to persuade him to help his neighbor to build a dam or to defend a town or to give food he has accumulated to the victims of a famine. But since we must live together, dependent upon one another for many things and services, altruism is necessary to survival."

"Though Miss Rand’s grasp of logic is uncertain, she does realize that to make even a modicum of sense she must change all the terms. Both Marx and Christ agree that in this life a right action is consideration for the welfare of others. In the one case, through a state which was to wither away, in the other through the private exercise of the moral sense. Miss Rand now tells us that what we have thought was right is really wrong. The lesson should have read: One for one and none for all."

"Ayn Rand’s “philosophy” is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a curious new phase in our society. Moral values are in flux. The muddy depths are being stirred by new monsters and witches from the deep. Trolls walk the American night."

http://www.esquire.com/features/gore-vidal-archive/comment-0761

[Jeremydav]

I once gave Atlas Shrugged as a gift. This was a year ago and my friend is still reading it. Apparently it's quite the drudgery to get through.

[Voivod30]

"writes novels I have never been able to read."

I know little about Rand or Vidal for that matter but this fraction of the quote sums up the some what reactionary views on her writing. He dislikes an author based on books he's never read?

[African_Love]

I don't think she's matchless as an author, frankly I find her terrible. Also, it's more than just capitalism she advocates, it's pure self-interested libertarianism.

Anyway, why she isn't listed is probably because she's not yet in the public domain, thus none of her works are available on the site. She won't be entering the public domain for near 50 years also, so many of us won't live to see the day either.

I haven't read the rest of the thread but I once read an interview with Ayn Rand where she refers to libertarians as 'vile' and 'evil'. Also, I think libertarianism is better thought of as a political philosophy and not an economic one. Libertarianism doesn't advocate capitalism or any other economic system, it only advocates political (and thus, economic) freedom. At least not the 'libertarianism' that anarchists advocate.

Someone bought Atlas Shrugged for me but I've avoided reading it because I've always thought of Rand as obnoxious. I consider myself to be a libertarian/anarchist but I don't think selfishness is a virtue and I don't see why Rand objects to altruism as long as it's voluntary. I was told that, in her novel, she mocks people who 'live through other people' and care more about them than themselves. Admittedly, I don't know much about her objectivist philosophy. Am I wrong? Would anyone recommend that I give it a chance? It would be nice to eventually read every novel on Radcliffe's 100 best novels list, I was planning on avoiding Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

[Katy North]

I remember that I loved The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged in early college... however, if I were to read those books again, I'm not sure what I would think of them.

I enjoyed her writing, and the construction of her characters. However, looking back I think of her philosophy, not as bad, but as incredibly naive. Selfishness is good so long as people remain civil to each other, but what is the likeliness of that?

[PeeSlowlyAndSee]

Some great viewpoints, people, thank you.
I might look into that "The Virtue Of Selfishness" one, because of it's length.

[Katy North]

If I were you I'd start with The Fountainhead. It isn't too long, and her characters overshadow her objectivism philosophy enough that if you don't agree with her philosophy, you might just read it to the end to see what happens to them.

[mal4mac]

"writes novels I have never been able to read."

I know little about Rand or Vidal for that matter but this fraction of the quote sums up the some what reactionary views on her writing. He dislikes an author based on books he's never read?

He didn't say that. I've spent many hours trying to read the Bible, and have failed, so I can quite sensibly say I have never been able to read it. This is the sense in which Vidal has never been able to read Rand.

[Dinkleberry2010]

To put it bluntly, Vidal is an effete smart-a s s; no wonder he's been head-butted and punched in the nose more than once by other writers.

[Babbalanja]

To put it bluntly, Vidal is an effete smart-a s s; no wonder he's been head-butted and punched in the nose more than once by other writers.
His retort upon being flattened by Norman Mailer: "Words fail Norman Mailer once again!"

Though Vidal's novels may not be particularly reliable history, they're very well written and hugely entertaining. In contrast to Rand's unintentionally hilarious screeds, Vidal's are full of satirical humor. Live from Golgotha was one of the funniest books I've ever read.

Regards,

Istvan

[Dinkleberry2010]

I have no quarrel whastsoever with Vidal's work; he is an accomplished writer. The problem is that as a person, he's an SOB. In short, he's a total a s s hole

[Eliot Rosewater]

I think Rand is a terrible writer to be honest. Its just pure self-indulgence. Theres a lot to be said for making your point brief and concise, and Rand takes the biscuit. The Fountainhead is 650 pages long. It could have been said in a quarter of that.

I would agree with Rand politically by the way. What others term "disgusting" or "evil" is really just personal responsibility. But I think that in a literature forum the emphasis must not be on the point the author makes, but how well the point is made.


Contrast Fountainhead with Vonneguts Slaughterhouse 5. Vonnegut says a lot more in a book 7 times as short.