Are natural disasters acts of God?

[Buh4Bee]

What is the general thought about the eathquake in Haiti? Was it an act of God or a natural disaster?

[NikolaiI]

As in the sense of punishment, no. As in the sense that everything is an act of God, yes.

[OrphanPip]

I saw the Pat Robertson thing on the news, and it made me feel very, very sad. I just don't understand how some people respond to things like this.

[JBI]

A natural disaster clearly - there is science that explains it...

[billl]

Pat Robertson, I think, really feels that he has some authority on worldly things, due to his spiritual experiences, and I think he maybe wanted to exhibit his "wisdom." I think we have every reason to believe it was seismic stuff happening, and not particularly directed (by anyone or anything) at the people of Haiti.

[OrphanPip]

There are only a few people in this world I'd like to inflict physical pain on and Pat Robertson tops the list.

He's a vile human being.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5TE99sAbwM

[Janine]

I heard the Pat Robertson broadcast and I was appalled. Is this man living in the Dark Ages?

In defense, if it wasn't for the fact that Haiti fought to free their country from slavery, then the whole Louisiana Purchase would not have taken place to begin with...so if you look at it that way, the growth of our country in size historically was due to the fact that they won their freedom. If one considers the US' growth as destiny and an act of God, then one must also consider their freedom as such...therefore, it pretty much deflates Robinson's confluted theory or belief that the nation of Haiti is being punished. You can research the history online.

[tailor STATELY]

An act of God ?

Cynic: What do the insurance adjusters and lawyers say?

re: Pat Robertson: Sigh. I might cite to him part of a church hymn I love "Who am I to judge another when I walk imperfectly" (the rest is here: http://www.onlymormon.com/Hymns/220/ ) [and afterwards re-iterate the hymn to myself for my transgression].

I agree with what NikolaiI stated:
As in the sense that everything is an act of God, yes.

I believe in a divine plan; and part of that plan includes trials and tribulations for the benefit of His people; which can be a difficult principle for even those of faith to truly understand.

[Babbalanja]

I believe in a divine plan; and part of that plan includes trials and tribulations for the benefit of His people; which can be a difficult principle for even those of faith to truly understand.
Because it doesn't make events like this any more understandable than honestly admitting that the innocent suffer greatly in our indifferent universe. It merely panders to our cozy Western notion of entitlement to say that things are meant to be the way they are.

It sounds complacent and defeatist to me to say that there's a divine plan that involves the economic exploitation and political oppression of the Haitian people, as well as the seismic activity that has created unimaginable suffering in that already precarious environment. The religious viewpoint that tragedy is "all part of a divine plan" is inhumane, because it trivializes the suffering of the innocent.

Regards,

Istvan

[clairel]

I say this an an atheist and not to offend anyone's beliefs.

There is, in my own and therefore limited opinion, no such thing as a will of god-there is no god.


This was a natural disaster. The man is a fool, and a despicable excuse for a human being.

[Jozanny]

I have been around these forums long enough to understand their reactionary nature, but I would ask the thread starter: Did you even consider that this might be offensive to Haitians who might be worried about family and friends? I am not talking about belief here, or even tracking the media which drops its hat at the door of the Christian Right every time its preachers rattle the cage, I am talking about good manners, and I am sorry, but this topic flunks that test.

[MarkBastable]

What is the general thought about the eathquake in Haiti? Was it an act of God or just a natural disaster?

...'just a natural disaster'?? You mean, if God was involved then all those deaths would carry some significance - but if not, well, it's just a natural disaster.

[JBI]

Well, good for the church to try and act of god this - conveniently God stuck a vastly Roman Catholic country (about 80-85% of the population) whereas "heathens" elsewhere get nothing. Talk about divine justice.


Seriously though, they said the same nonsense about Katrina in New Orleans which was just as ridiculous - the Job argument is misinterpreted anyway - it seems to have become an excuse for God everywhere, but historical Jewish scholarship treated it completely differently, some scholars even writing about Job's past crimes, and the diagram as a discussion showing that justice always comes to those who transgress, just sometimes not in the way we think.


Really though, the fact that a "divine plan" caused this seems to me beyond scary - I wouldn't want to live in a world that was governed by such principles.

[BienvenuJDC]

I saw the Pat Robertson thing on the news, and it made me feel very, very sad. I just don't understand how some people respond to things like this.

Please, I ask as a Christian, do not judge all or even most Christians based on this man's ignorance. According to Luke 13, Jesus made a point that people are not punished on earth for their sins. The most that I could say is that people do, however, have to endure any consequences for their actions, but I can't see any human action causing this. If one would want to blame people for being stupid enough to live in a flood plain, or near an active volcano, then maybe they have to live with that, but God did not use this earthquake to punish anyone.

[tailor STATELY]

The religious viewpoint that tragedy is "all part of a divine plan" is inhumane, because it trivializes the suffering of the innocent.


There is, in my own and therefore limited opinion, no such thing as a will of god-there is no god.


Really though, the fact that a "divine plan" caused this seems to me beyond scary - I wouldn't want to live in a world that was governed by such principles.

To the above three quotes: I humbly agree to disagree with you. This is a true humility, so please do not be offended.

Now the below quote I agree with, again, with a repentant heart:


Please, I ask as a Christian, do not judge all or even most Christians based on this man's (Pat Robertson's) ignorance. According to Luke 13, Jesus made a point that people are not punished on earth for their sins. The most that I could say is that people do, however, have to endure any consequences for their actions, but I can't see any human action causing this. If one would want to blame people for being stupid enough to live in a flood plain, or near an active volcano, then maybe they have to live with that, but God did not use this earthquake to punish anyone.

Re:
I have been around these forums long enough to understand their reactionary nature, but I would ask the thread starter: Did you even consider that this might be offensive to Haitians who might be worried about family and friends? I am not talking about belief here, or even tracking the media which drops its hat at the door of the Christian Right every time its preachers rattle the cage, I am talking about good manners, and I am sorry, but this topic flunks that test.
Today 03:05 AM Ah, the true voice of reason, thank you for bringing me to my senses for continuing to beat this poor horse.

All y'all have a good discussion, I'm out'a here to put my money where my mouth is.

[Scheherazade]

Well, good for the church to try and act of god this - conveniently God stuck a vastly Roman Catholic country (about 80-85% of the population) whereas "heathens" elsewhere get nothing. Talk about divine justice.Actually this happens in non-Christian counties as well.

[JBI]

Actually this happens in non-Christian counties as well.

Oh, no doubt, but they can't all be acts of god, right? It must be god having something against certain places (particularly one's with territory near where tectonic plates collide) - probably the sea air upsets his nose, and he sneezes violently.

[Buh4Bee]

I have been around these forums long enough to understand their reactionary nature, but I would ask the thread starter: Did you even consider that this might be offensive to Haitians who might be worried about family and friends? I am not talking about belief here, or even tracking the media which drops its hat at the door of the Christian Right every time its preachers rattle the cage, I am talking about good manners, and I am sorry, but this topic flunks that test.

Please see edit in first post.


...'just a natural disaster'?? You mean, if God was involved then all those deaths would carry some significance - but if not, well, it's just a natural disaster.

See edit in first post.

[MarkBastable]

See edit in first post.

Your edit was to take out 'just'.

Okay. I think that a considered edit.

But when you wrote 'just', what did you mean?

[Virgil]

What is the general thought about the eathquake in Haiti? Was it an act of God or a natural disaster?
No, no, no!!!! God hates no one!!!! Suffering is a path to God, both for the sufferers and for the compassionate that helps alleviate the sufferring. Christ unjustly suffered and we openned our hearts to Him. That is the heart of Christianity. And if heaven is real, then wouldn't the dead be in a better place? God will provide justice to all those that suffered.

I hate getting into these religious diescussions.


As in the sense of punishment, no. As in the sense that everything is an act of God, yes.


Please, I ask as a Christian, do not judge all or even most Christians based on this man's ignorance. According to Luke 13, Jesus made a point that people are not punished on earth for their sins. The most that I could say is that people do, however, have to endure any consequences for their actions, but I can't see any human action causing this. If one would want to blame people for being stupid enough to live in a flood plain, or near an active volcano, then maybe they have to live with that, but God did not use this earthquake to punish anyone.

Thank you both for that.

[1n50mn14]

Nah. This crap just happens.
*That is not to make light of the situation whatsoever! It's a horrific disaster, but c'est la vie in these times.*

[Babbalanja]

And if heaven is real, then wouldn't the dead be in a better place? God will provide justice to all those that suffered.
But then there's no real tragedy, is there? That's what I mean about trivializing the suffering of the innocent.

What if heaven is just an illusion that our conscience creates so that we can deal with senseless tragedies like this one? Isn't it more honest and humane to realize that suffering is real, people don't actually survive their physical deaths, there's no reward in the great beyond, and it's our responsibility to make life better HERE ON EARTH for all God's creatures?

Regards,

Istvan

[Virgil]

But then there's no real tragedy, is there? That's what I mean about trivializing the suffering of the innocent.

What if heaven is just an illusion that our conscience creates so that we can deal with senseless tragedies like this one? Isn't it more honest and humane to realize that suffering is real, people don't actually survive their physical deaths, there's no reward in the great beyond, and it's our responsibility to make life better HERE ON EARTH for all God's creatures?

Regards,

Istvan

No, because then it's all meaningless. Just like your vision of the universe's creation, it's all chance, and our obligations are only to ourselves. If there is no eternal justice, if there is no divine spark in every human being, then what's a few lives here and there? What's an abortion but just a bunch of cells? You are aganst abortion, aren't you? How many atheists are against abortions?

[MarkBastable]

I don't understand why a universe without a god would be meaningless. Or why one with a god would be meaningful.

[ozhansean]

I don't understand why a universe without a god would be meaningless. Or why one with a god would be meaningful.

Because a majority of us, humans, want to find a solution to this question that would make us more important that we really are. WE want to be the meaning to this universe. And for that we may even take away any meaning that there maybe.

P.S. Lucky thing, since we are the only ones with a comprehensive tongue, at least on this planet, every living thing but us is immune to our bull****

[MarkBastable]

Okay - apart from the fact that human beings would rather that the universe had meaning, I don't understand why the existence of a god would give a universe meaning, or why the absence of a god would deprive a universe of meaning.

[NikolaiI]

Because it doesn't make events like this any more understandable than honestly admitting that the innocent suffer greatly in our indifferent universe. It merely panders to our cozy Western notion of entitlement to say that things are meant to be the way they are.

It sounds complacent and defeatist to me to say that there's a divine plan that involves the economic exploitation and political oppression of the Haitian people, as well as the seismic activity that has created unimaginable suffering in that already precarious environment. The religious viewpoint that tragedy is "all part of a divine plan" is inhumane, because it trivializes the suffering of the innocent.

Regards,

Istvan

Consider, Istvan - what is discord at one level of being is harmony at another level. Consider the small creatures in the blood stream of a human or animal body. They fight and kill each other, and at that level it is discord, but at the level of the greater organism it is harmony. Similarly, what may seem like discord on the level of our perception is harmony at another level of being, where we may see that life moves on no matter what, and that every part of the whole is whole in itself...


No, no, no!!!! God hates no one!!!! Suffering is a path to God, both for the sufferers and for the compassionate that helps alleviate the sufferring. Christ unjustly suffered and we openned our hearts to Him. That is the heart of Christianity. And if heaven is real, then wouldn't the dead be in a better place? God will provide justice to all those that suffered.

I hate getting into these religious diescussions.

Thank you both for that.

Hehe, you're welcome. :)

I just wanted to reply to your first paragraph... the last two sentences of it... I've had experiences which showed me this was the reality, that actually death is not something to grieve for. I can just think that if we knew where someone went to, when they leave this planet, if they go back to God, then they are going back to the One who has Infinite Love and Mercy... and this is truly beyond our comprehension, even heaven is beyond our comprehension, but if we could understand it, then we wouldn't grieve at all... in fact, well of course, if we truly had divine vision, then we would always have divine peace and equanimity as well, even if it were ourselves in such a position.

And indeed I agree with you, it is a shame that religious discussions, which themselves are discussions of the sacred, the holy, the divine, can bring out what is mean in people. But then as Dostoevsky wrote in a novel..... never underestimate the power of humble love. :)

[Koa]

As in the sense of punishment, no. As in the sense that everything is an act of God, yes.

As a non-believer, I'd say the opposite, as in, it is a bloody horrible natural disaster as any other bloody horrible natural disaster. I am shocked this thread is even serious...


I have been around these forums long enough to understand their reactionary nature, but I would ask the thread starter: Did you even consider that this might be offensive to Haitians who might be worried about family and friends?

And, on a very minor note, vaguely offensive to non-believers or believers of something that is not God/Allah/whatever.

[NikolaiI]

But then there's no real tragedy, is there? That's what I mean about trivializing the suffering of the innocent.

What if heaven is just an illusion that our conscience creates so that we can deal with senseless tragedies like this one? Isn't it more honest and humane to realize that suffering is real, people don't actually survive their physical deaths, there's no reward in the great beyond, and it's our responsibility to make life better HERE ON EARTH for all God's creatures?

Regards,

Istvan

What?

The way you make the list you imply that those who believe in God do not try to make the world a better place here... a very strange post, if it is an honest one. No one here is saying atheists do not try to make the world a better place and can you imagine the uproar from the atheists if someone did? This is what happens when you draw so many arbitrary divisions and you have such an "Us and Them" mentality...

[Virgil]

Hehe, you're welcome. :)

I just wanted to reply to your first paragraph... the last two sentences of it... I've had experiences which showed me this was the reality, that actually death is not something to grieve for. I can just think that if we knew where someone went to, when they leave this planet, if they go back to God, then they are going back to the One who has Infinite Love and Mercy... and this is truly beyond our comprehension, even heaven is beyond our comprehension, but if we could understand it, then we wouldn't grieve at all... in fact, well of course, if we truly had divine vision, then we would always have divine peace and equanimity as well, even if it were ourselves in such a position.

Yes, and remember, it's an interweaved matrix, the dead, the suffering, and the compassionate. To try to pull out one single thread of the matrix, the single thread is relatively incomprehensible, but when you visualize the process (three dimensionally, if you will) then it all makes sense.


And indeed I agree with you, it is a shame that religious discussions, which themselves are discussions of the sacred, the holy, the divine, can bring out what is mean in people. But then as Dostoevsky wrote in a novel..... never underestimate the power of humble love. :)
Well, that's because of the fundementalists who feel the need to proseltize.

[Babbalanja]

What?

The way you make the list you imply that those who believe in God do not try to make the world a better place here... a very strange post, if it is an honest one.I meant no such thing. All I meant is that the notion of reward or punishment in some afterlife is a fiction that we use to make ourselves feel better about injustice in the here and now.


No one here is saying atheists do not try to make the world a better place and can you imagine the uproar from the atheists if someone did? This is what happens when you draw so many arbitrary divisions and you have such an "Us and Them" mentality...I don't think the division between people who believe this is all part of God's plan and those who believe that this is another example of how the innocent suffer for no reason in our senseless universe is arbitrary at all.

And not for nothing, but I'm not the one here who's using insulting (and inappropriate) terms like "fundamentalist" to denigrate people who disagree with me.

Regards,

Istvan

[NikolaiI]

I meant no such thing. All I meant is that the notion of reward or punishment in some afterlife is a fiction that we use to make ourselves feel better about injustice in the here and now.

I don't think the division between people who believe this is all part of God's plan and those who believe that this is another example of how the innocent suffer for no reason in our senseless universe is arbitrary at all.

And not for nothing, but I'm not the one here who's using insulting (and inappropriate) terms like "fundamentalist" to denigrate people who disagree with me.

Regards,

Istvan

I believe I understand your views as well as I would care to.

[Babbalanja]

If there is no eternal justice, if there is no divine spark in every human being, then what's a few lives here and there?
I can't see how that follows. Quite the contrary: if there's no "eternal justice," then the lives themselves are what actually matter. Alleviating suffering and making things fairer for everyone are what should be important in our lives.

In contrast, what does life on Earth matter if it's just a lead-in to the big pie party in the sky? That sounds like a more convenient way to get people to suffer and make others suffer in the hopes of a reward in the great beyond. And that's inhumane.

Regards,

Istvan

[Buh4Bee]

Your edit was to take out 'just'.

Okay. I think that a considered edit.

But when you wrote 'just', what did you mean?

It was a sloppy mistake when I wrote it, hence the edit. It was a syntactical error, not meant to be a commentary on the severe nature of this earthquake and human loss and misery. Does that make sense or so I need to explain myself further? I'm glad to do so, if I am still confusing people. It's a talent that I have.

[ozhansean]

Okay - apart from the fact that human beings would rather that the universe had meaning, I don't understand why the existence of a god would give a universe meaning, or why the absence of a god would deprive a universe of meaning.

It doesn't. There is no god. It is our inability to take things at face value. All just is.

[Buh4Bee]

[QUOTE=Virgil;829292]No, no, no!!!! God hates no one!!!! Suffering is a path to God, both for the sufferers and for the compassionate that helps alleviate the sufferring. Christ unjustly suffered and we openned our hearts to Him. That is the heart of Christianity. And if heaven is real, then wouldn't the dead be in a better place? God will provide justice to all those that suffered.

I hate getting into these religious diescussions.

Virgil, I hate these discussions too. I get wicked frustrated when I hear people blame God for such natural disasters. I think it is important, as much as I hate these debates, to discuss these ideas.

[Virgil]

I can't see how that follows. Quite the contrary: if there's no "eternal justice," then the lives themselves are what actually matter. Alleviating suffering and making things fairer for everyone are what should be important in our lives.

Why would it matter? If Darwinian logic holds, my existence is what matters. Someone's death half way across the world is meaningless. You used the word "senseless" above. Without God and eternal justice, it is all senseless. If there is no God and no justice, then why should anyone care? Ever watch the movie Goodfellas? This quote has always stuck in my mind:

Henry Hill: For us to live any other way was nuts. Uh, to us, those goody-good people who worked ****ty jobs for bum paychecks and took the subway to work every day, and worried about their bills, were dead. I mean they were suckers. They had no balls. If we wanted something we just took it. If anyone complained twice they got hit so bad, believe me, they never complained again
Charitable work is for suckers if there's no God.

{edit}

[NikolaiI]

It doesn't. There is no god. It is our inability to take things at face value. All just is.

God is Love. :)

[Virgil]

No, no, no!!!! God hates no one!!!! Suffering is a path to God, both for the sufferers and for the compassionate that helps alleviate the sufferring. Christ unjustly suffered and we openned our hearts to Him. That is the heart of Christianity. And if heaven is real, then wouldn't the dead be in a better place? God will provide justice to all those that suffered.

I hate getting into these religious diescussions.

Virgil, I hate these discussions too. I get wicked frustrated when I hear people blame God for such natural disasters. I think it is important, as much as I hate these debates, to discuss these ideas.

I'd be glad to discuss it off line. Theological discussions require people who believe or are will to meet the other person's belief. There are those here that would interfere. {edit}

[ozhansean]

I'd be glad to discuss it off line. Theological discussions require people who believe or are will to meet the other person's belief. {edit}

That is not a discussion, what you refer to is called planning.

[Babbalanja]

Charitable work is for suckers if there's no God.

Why? Are you saying the only reason for a religious person to be charitable is because he expects a reward for it? Is it inconceivable that people could be motivated by humanitarian feelings?

Charitable work is for the compassionate, whether or not there is eternal justice or God.

Regards,

Istvan

[MarkBastable]

It doesn't. There is no god. It is our inability to take things at face value. All just is.


I was rather hoping for an answer from someone who does believe that the universe only has meaning with a god in it, because I want to know how that connection works. I already understand that you don't think it works, so you're unlikely to have a view as to why it might.

[Babbalanja]

God is Love. :)
Yeah. Just ask the Canaanites.

Regards,

Istvan

[NikolaiI]

Yeah. Just ask the Canaanites.

Regards,

Istvan

Eh?

Okay, then.

God is the Dao. :)

[Virgil]

I'm sick of the endless atheists versues believers argument. It's for fundementalists, and I refuse to participate. {edit}

[ozhansean]

I was rather hoping for an answer from someone who does believe that the universe only has meaning with a god in it, because I want to know how that connection works. I already understand that you don't think it works, so you're unlikely to have a view as to why it might.

Fare enough. I don't mean to be in a discussion I am not invited to.I thought It was an open discussion. But I find some of the observations here quie interesting.

[NickAdams]

I say it's a natural disaster and not because I'm an atheist (lower case "a" because the upper case seems to be a non-religious religion:confused:), but because I don't see why the Judeo-Christian God (I'm sorry, but this is the only God that I am familiar with) would give man choice and then interfere. How could the final judgement be based on man's actions alone, if God interferes?

Maybe I don't understand the religion fully and if that's the case then correct me.:redface:

[Koa]

But, thinking for a second of God as existing, why would it not be natural? God created Nature, islands, earthquakes, whatever, and gave them freedom to act, and then Earthquake wakes up one day and says oh let's destroy Haiti (or any other place that has been subject to an earthquake - there was a quite major one in central Italy last April - whole villages and a whole city centre were destroyed too, although "only" around 300 people died and of course there's no comparison with the conditions in poor Haiti). Why is that not natural? Can't it be natural even if there is a God? Does natural have to exclude divine? I think I was taught it was the same thing, nature is a divine creation. (I am an atheist by choice but raised as a Catholic in an extremely Catholic country).

[Babbalanja]

Consider, Istvan - what is discord at one level of being is harmony at another level. Consider the small creatures in the blood stream of a human or animal body. They fight and kill each other, and at that level it is discord, but at the level of the greater organism it is harmony. Similarly, what may seem like discord on the level of our perception is harmony at another level of being, where we may see that life moves on no matter what, and that every part of the whole is whole in itself...
Interesting perspective. But again, doesn't it trivialize the suffering of the innocent by making it simply part of the greater harmony? Isn't the Buddhist's sole aim to alleviate suffering?

The fact that many compassionate people of various philosophical and religious stripes have donated their money and effort to alleviate the suffering in Haiti is evidence that they do, in fact, consider this suffering more than a mere detail in "God's plan" or a blip in the "greater harmony."

Regards,

Istvan

[MarkBastable]

Fare enough. I don't mean to be in a discussion I am not invited to.I thought It was an open discussion. But I find some of the observations here quie interesting.

I'm sorry - I didn't mean that you shouldn't contribute. I meant that I was hoping that someone who does believe it's true would say why they do, rather than someone who doesn't saying why they don't.

[Haunted]

The fact that many compassionate people of various philosophical and religious stripes have donated their money and effort to alleviate the suffering in Haiti is evidence that they do, in fact, consider this suffering more than a mere detail in "God's plan" or a blip in the "greater harmony."


Donations are acts of kindness. When we reach out to others, we're not trying to proof anything or make a religious statement other than simply to help those in need.

[qimissung]

Are you still discussing wheter what happened in Haiti was an act of God or a natural disaster? Because I think it was a natural disaster. Or unnatural. I don't believe thare was any meaning behind the act, but there is certainly great meaning, and suffering, now.

[sixsmith]

No. According to Wikipedia 'an Earthquake is the result of a sudden release of energy in the Earth's crust that creates seismic waves.' Apparently, scientists have monitored these things for a while now. The death and suffering experienced by the Haitian people has no meaning.