Haiti, 2010: “To Them That Hath...”

[PrinceMyshkin]

We will mingle with God
in the devastation that is Haiti.
We will read the anti-Bible
in the ruined faces,
the bodies in their awkward postures.
Auschwitz in just a few moments,
Dachau piled upon Bergen-Belsen.
To them that hath
poverty shall be given
despair.

[paperleaves]

This is a gut-wrenching, devastating portrayal of the terrible things those poor people received. You did well in paying them homage, Jer. May they be blessed :(


love
Kate

[Babbalanja]

Auschwitz in just a few moments,
Dachau piled upon Bergen-Belsen.


You're comparing an earthquake to the Holocaust?

Regards,

Istvan

[PrinceMyshkin]

You're comparing an earthquake to the Holocaust?

Regards,

Istvan

Yes and that is something, as a Jew myself, that I felt very squeamish about but would justify by maintaining that both the Holocaust (in the narrower sense of it) and the calamity in Haiti were/are acts of God.

[OrphanPip]

Yes and that is something, as a Jew myself, that I felt very squeamish about but would justify by maintaining that both the Holocaust (in the narrower sense of it) and the calamity in Haiti were/are acts of God.

I had a similar knee jerk reaction to that of Babba. I'm not sure, from an atheistic perspective, I can initially come to terms with equating the tragedy of the holocaust to that of the recent earthquake. However, the more I think about it I can't help but feel there is a bit of human responsibility for the disaster down in Haiti. We are complacent at some level in the terrible poverty of the Haitians, and that poverty did contribute to making the death toll what it is. The complacency of the West in the poverty of nations like Haiti is at some level similar to the complacency of the German people during the Nazi regime.

[Babbalanja]

The complacency of the West in the poverty of nations like Haiti is at some level similar to the complacency of the German people during the Nazi regime.I don't deny that. It's true, the poverty was there long before the earthquake.

And isn't this the exact opposite of what the poem is saying? PrinceMyshkin explained that to his way of thinking, the Holocaust and an earthquake are both "acts of God." It seems like a defeatist and complacent way of looking at either tragedy.

However, the problem of belief in God is that any kind of tragedy becomes something that God didn't bother to prevent. Ad hoc rationalizations can't account for the plain fact that hideous things happen to the innocent in our absurd and often cruel universe.

Regards,

Istvan

[AuntShecky]

There is a philosophical error anytime we try to assign blame for natural disasters and man-made tragedies to
God, and it is even more fallacious to state that God "did not prevent such tragedies from occurring." Saying that God is omnipotent does not give human
beings the right to question how God chooses to use
his power; nor should we automatically assume that whenever a disaster occurs that it was God's direct
action or even an act of retribution on his part.

The initial mistake is in attempting to "second guess" the mind of God. When we do so we would fall into a trap like that of Pat Robertson, with his feeble-minded and preposterous assertion that the suffering of Haitians is a result of some sort of deal with the devil. The televangelist has a proven track record of attributing sad events as example of od's "judgement" for certain political positions he (Robertson) doesn't happen to agree with. His latest ridiculous pronouncement on Haiti may be Robertson's preemptive attack on those who might be prone to "blame God" for the earthquake, and thus become converts to atheism. Robertson, after all, is in the God business, and he doesn't want to lose any more donation-making customers.

On the other side of the church, it seems facile to say that any tragedy is "God's will." Again, that's an extremely arrogant position to take -- even though I, for one, am not by any stretch a devout Christian, I would never assume that I had the ability to know what God's will is.

Rather than trying to make philosophical statements about God's role in this and other catastrophes or write a poem about it, I would re-direct the energy and take whatever action was necessary to help the Haitians. If I were able to, I'd make a donation to the Salvation Army or the Red Cross. If not, I'd say a prayer. In other words, believers or non-believers can see this as an opportunity to do good -- not just in aiding survivors of the earthquake but also helping to rebuild that society with the hope of helping the Haitians lift their way out of economic despair.

Every day gives us an opportunity to forget ourselves
temporarily in the act of helping somebody else. It shouldn't take an earthquake to remind us of that need.

[tailor STATELY]

This part disturbs me: "We will read the anti-Bible in the ruined faces" - perhaps I misunderstand the metaphor.

What I read in the faces of the living is shock, pain, grief, and a longing for help. In the dead: a release from their earthly cares.

CNN has given information that 80% of the population is Catholic, and I feel sure that the majority of the remaining 20% are of other faiths. The prayers of the people of Haiti have been uttered; and heard and acted upon by angels on high, and angels in the form of selfless men and women, regardless of their faith or non-faith, on the earth.

I pray that all who can give, will give.

Charity never faileth.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I had a similar knee jerk reaction to that of Babba. I'm not sure, from an atheistic perspective, I can initially come to terms with equating the tragedy of the holocaust to that of the recent earthquake. However, the more I think about it I can't help but feel there is a bit of human responsibility for the disaster down in Haiti. We are complacent at some level in the terrible poverty of the Haitians, and that poverty did contribute to making the death toll what it is. The complacency of the West in the poverty of nations like Haiti is at some level similar to the complacency of the German people during the Nazi regime.

This is a deeply felt passage of theodicy. Beyond what I wrote in my poem I wouldn't venture to equate the one calamity with the other. In some respects each reaches the category of the immeasurable unique.

Of course there is a telling difference in that the one was a natural disaster, the other a carefully planned and executed sequence of deliberate cruelties, but in the end they share this infamous category of the hideously unique.

[Babbalanja]

This is a deeply felt passage of theodicy. Is it?

Why do you say we will "mingle with God," when the tragedy is that God seems so remote in the midst of such destruction? What's an "anti-Bible"?


Beyond what I wrote in my poem I wouldn't venture to equate the one calamity with the other. In some respects each reaches the category of the immeasurable unique.No they don't. Unfortunately, natural disasters and genocidal slaughters have happened many times in human history.

Regards,

Istvan

[firefangled]

I see AuntShecky has responded similarly before I finished this, but here is my two cents:

Personally, I always find it difficult to state an opinion when it involves using the word God or any of the iconic vocabulary of the worlds religions. Even terms like believer, atheist, agnostic remind of the line by Stevens (an)"abstraction taking form/then suddenly denying itself away." But here goes anyway...

"An act of God" is a dangerous abstraction to explain events that defy our comprehension by way of their tragic and terrible outcomes. It removes the entire spectrum of a physical universe from what contributes to divine (holiness). With this in mind, I was so captivated by the first two lines of this poem. I considered them to have come out of a deep consideration of who we are as humans and what we should be doing on this earth.

It upset my perception of these lines two-fold with your response comparing what has happened in Haiti to the Holocaust, compounded by calling both acts of God. This does not seem to reflect what your poem states in its opening; that opening implies that this world of human beings carries equal responsibility with "God," if not more so for how Haitians (among many others in many places) are forced to live in a world where resources abound and are squandered on far less important things.

I’m not trying to start a philosophical thread in Personal Poetry, but I am trying to respond to the content of your poem which I must have misunderstood based on your later comment. It would seem that if earthquakes, hurricanes, and other events over which we have no control are to be considered “acts of God” and are equated to the Holocaust, it removes human causation from the latter and that is a dangerous position. The Holocaust was as a result of human ignorance and apathy at best. I believe in evil, but I do not attribute the daemon of evil to a mythological character. Human beings are as much fashioned in the image of their God as in the image of their daemon. In his poem that begins, “I am too alone in the world, and not alone enough / to make every minute holy. / I am too tiny in this world, and not tiny enough / just to lie before you like a thing, / shrewd and secretive.” , Rilke further on states, “I want to unfold. / I don’t want to stay folded anywhere, / because where I am folded, there I am a lie.” Evil is a sociological structure that may or may not be intentional, but nevertheless is our responsibility as humans by actions we have taken, permitted to be taken, or actions not taken out of fear or apathy. It has been many years since I read it, but I recall Earnest Becker’s book, “The Structure of Evil” as a very thorough treatment of the subject.

What happened in Haiti may be exacerbated by inadequate response of world nations to several pre-existing social problems, but the trigger for the disaster was geological not theological. The cause of the Holocaust and other genocides before and since was man made. To attribute it to any other maker distracts our gaze from where it is happening at this moment.

[~Sophia~]

Sorry Prince, I just have to rant a bit. Theology, geology ... the discussion seems inappropriate to me because it's completely irrelevant. This is what matters... Haiti needs the world's help and focus, not just to get through this particular event but far beyond...

Haiti was a disaster long long long before the hurricanes and earthquakes everyone has heard about in the past couple of years.

Chest high floods, HIV and STD epidemics, child slavery, child prostitution, 300,000 children living in the streets, starvation, rampant murder and crime, few schools, a hideously corrupt government and military police (less than 1/3 of the money being donated around the world will get the suffering masses) malnutrition, poverty, sparse to no medical supplies doctors or hospitals, no housing, no cooking fuel, urine and feces in the streets (no sanitation), putrid water, mosquitoes, Dengue fever plus a 50 lb bag of rice costs a little over $53 US dollars - the average wage is $1 a day ... none of it is the result of this last insult to the injured.

I guess what bothers me most is that the world conveniently tucks the misery of Haiti away until something CNN worthy happens. If you have never taken a look at the link below the photo of a child's eyes, please do. This is Haiti before the quake and, this will be Haiti after all the international aid has dried up.

Applause to everyone who has offered up a prayer and/or more to this poor poor nation but, much like the intense international focus eradicated apartheid in South Africa, so must the global community focus on extinguishing two hundred years of political corruption and the ensuing poverty that kills thousands of Haitians every year. A one night candlelight vigil is not enough!

____________________

(a poem I wrote a year ago while living next door to Haiti)

Stays With You

Firefly - when you pulse among the
stumps of trees sacrificed for cane,
shacks and cooking fuel, shine down
the throat of starvation, illuminate the
mosquito crops of a rain soaked soil.

Chronicle the transparent children dying
in urinal city gutters. Their memories of
food, medicine, a home flowing in the
sluice of an angry voodoo morphing rice
to maggot - Manbo’s sons and daughters
into sewer rats and jackals.

Firefly - streak innocent on every cross.

Collect their little lives into a book of wilted
poems inscribed with apathy. Condemn
throughout eternity this pestilent infanticide,
this gangrenous ignorance festering
three hundred thousand sores a year.
Call it Restaveck, call it Haiti.

[Virgil]

Yes and that is something, as a Jew myself, that I felt very squeamish about but would justify by maintaining that both the Holocaust (in the narrower sense of it) and the calamity in Haiti were/are acts of God.

Prince, count me with those that don't think the comparison holds. The analogy is so superficial (edit: perhaps tenuous would be a more precise word) I'm afraid that one can't take the poem seriously.

[Buh4Bee]

Yes and that is something, as a Jew myself, that I felt very squeamish about but would justify by maintaining that both the Holocaust (in the narrower sense of it) and the calamity in Haiti were/are acts of God.

I strongly disagree that these tragedies were acts of God. See what your rabbi says.

[Bar22do]

Honestly, I must add my voice to Fire, Orphan, Aunty, Babba... and Sophia. As little as I know about Haiti, and rather than to speculate about whose responsibility immeasurable disasters might be (I tend to point an accusing finger at men, and at men only), I believe we should all be out in strength, all of us!, in a continuing effort not to let the world forget about Haiti once the event is over.

But, back to your poem, I find:

"The them that hath poverty shall be given despair"

is powerful, poignant, enough to shake everyone of us to take action...

[PrinceMyshkin]

There is a philosophical error anytime we try to assign blame for natural disasters and man-made tragedies to
God, and it is even more fallacious to state that God "did not prevent such tragedies from occurring." Saying that God is omnipotent does not give human
beings the right to question how God chooses to use
his power; nor should we automatically assume that whenever a disaster occurs that it was God's direct
action or even an act of retribution on his part.

But once we posit the existence of a supernatural "God," it is surely fair game to attribute both the good and the evil or tragic of life to him?


The initial mistake is in attempting to "second guess" the mind of God. When we do so we would fall into a trap like that of Pat Robertson, with his feeble-minded and preposterous assertion that the suffering of Haitians is a result of some sort of deal with the devil. The televangelist has a proven track record of attributing sad events as example of od's "judgement" for certain political positions he (Robertson) doesn't happen to agree with. His latest ridiculous pronouncement on Haiti may be Robertson's preemptive attack on those who might be prone to "blame God" for the earthquake, and thus become converts to atheism. Robertson, after all, is in the God business, and he doesn't want to lose any more donation-making customers.

On the other side of the church, it seems facile to say that any tragedy is "God's will." Again, that's an extremely arrogant position to take -- even though I, for one, am not by any stretch a devout Christian, I would never assume that I had the ability to know what God's will is.

But Christian, Moslem or Jew, once you so identify yourself surely you're in the position of following - or questioning - the laws that He allegedly laid down and of interpreting life according to His will?


Rather than trying to make philosophical statements about God's role in this and other catastrophes or write a poem about it, I would re-direct the energy and take whatever action was necessary to help the Haitians. If I were able to, I'd make a donation to the Salvation Army or the Red Cross. If not, I'd say a prayer. In other words, believers or non-believers can see this as an opportunity to do good -- not just in aiding survivors of the earthquake but also helping to rebuild that society with the hope of helping the Haitians lift their way out of economic despair.

Every day gives us an opportunity to forget ourselves
temporarily in the act of helping somebody else. It shouldn't take an earthquake to remind us of that need.

Thank you. Wasn't it a spokesperson for Somalia who recently said, "We are trying to get from misery into poverty."


I see AuntShecky has responded similarly before I finished this, but here is my two cents:

Personally, I always find it difficult to state an opinion when it involves using the word God or any of the iconic vocabulary of the worlds religions. Even terms like believer, atheist, agnostic remind of the line by Stevens (an)"abstraction taking form/then suddenly denying itself away." But here goes anyway...

"An act of God" is a dangerous abstraction to explain events that defy our comprehension by way of their tragic and terrible outcomes. It removes the entire spectrum of a physical universe from what contributes to divine (holiness). With this in mind, I was so captivated by the first two lines of this poem. I considered them to have come out of a deep consideration of who we are as humans and what we should be doing on this earth.

By "mingling with God" I meant that either He created us or we created Him. Either way we are jointly responsible - if not for the earthquake itself, then for how we deal with the aftermath.


It upset my perception of these lines two-fold with your response comparing what has happened in Haiti to the Holocaust, compounded by calling both acts of God. This does not seem to reflect what your poem states in its opening; that opening implies that this world of human beings carries equal responsibility with "God," if not more so for how Haitians (among many others in many places) are forced to live in a world where resources abound and are squandered on far less important things.

I’m not trying to start a philosophical thread in Personal Poetry, but I am trying to respond to the content of your poem which I must have misunderstood based on your later comment. It would seem that if earthquakes, hurricanes, and other events over which we have no control are to be considered “acts of God” and are equated to the Holocaust, it removes human causation from the latter and that is a dangerous position. The Holocaust was as a result of human ignorance and apathy at best. I believe in evil, but I do not attribute the daemon of evil to a mythological character. Human beings are as much fashioned in the image of their God as in the image of their daemon. In his poem that begins, “I am too alone in the world, and not alone enough / to make every minute holy. / I am too tiny in this world, and not tiny enough / just to lie before you like a thing, / shrewd and secretive.” , Rilke further on states, “I want to unfold. / I don’t want to stay folded anywhere, / because where I am folded, there I am a lie.” Evil is a sociological structure that may or may not be intentional, but nevertheless is our responsibility as humans by actions we have taken, permitted to be taken, or actions not taken out of fear or apathy. It has been many years since I read it, but I recall Earnest Becker’s book, “The Structure of Evil” as a very thorough treatment of the subject.

What happened in Haiti may be exacerbated by inadequate response of world nations to several pre-existing social problems, but the trigger for the disaster was geological not theological.

But if God did not create the world, with its tectonic plates, the 'natural' disasters such as malaria, cancer, Aids &c., what then did He do?


The cause of the Holocaust and other genocides before and since was man made. To attribute it to any other maker distracts our gaze from where it is happening at this moment.

But if God created us "in His own image," where do we drawn the line between what He predetermined us to do and what we do out of our (corrupted?) free will? That free will which, once exercised, caused us to be banished forever from Eden?


Sorry Prince, I just have to rant a bit.

Well, there are rants and there are rants! I'm happy to have provided a forum for your humanitarian appeal and for the fine poem you've added.


Theology, geology ... the discussion seems inappropriate to me because it's completely irrelevant. This is what matters... Haiti needs the world's help and focus, not just to get through this particular event but far beyond...

Haiti was a disaster long long long before the hurricanes and earthquakes everyone has heard about in the past couple of years.

Chest high floods, HIV and STD epidemics, child slavery, child prostitution, 300,000 children living in the streets, starvation, rampant murder and crime, few schools, a hideously corrupt government and military police (less than 1/3 of the money being donated around the world will get the suffering masses) malnutrition, poverty, sparse to no medical supplies doctors or hospitals, no housing, no cooking fuel, urine and feces in the streets (no sanitation), putrid water, mosquitoes, Dengue fever plus a 50 lb bag of rice costs a little over $53 US dollars - the average wage is $1 a day ... none of it is the result of this last insult to the injured.

I guess what bothers me most is that the world conveniently tucks the misery of Haiti away until something CNN worthy happens. If you have never taken a look at the link below the photo of a child's eyes, please do. This is Haiti before the quake and, this will be Haiti after all the international aid has dried up.

Applause to everyone who has offered up a prayer and/or more to this poor poor nation but, much like the intense international focus eradicated apartheid in South Africa, so must the global community focus on extinguishing two hundred years of political corruption and the ensuing poverty that kills thousands of Haitians every year. A one night candlelight vigil is not enough!

____________________

(a poem I wrote a year ago while living next door to Haiti)

Stays With You

Firefly - when you pulse among the
stumps of trees sacrificed for cane,
shacks and cooking fuel, shine down
the throat of starvation, illuminate the
mosquito crops of a rain soaked soil.

Chronicle the transparent children dying
in urinal city gutters. Their memories of
food, medicine, a home flowing in the
sluice of an angry voodoo morphing rice
to maggot - Manbo’s sons and daughters
into sewer rats and jackals.

Firefly - streak innocent on every cross.

Collect their little lives into a book of wilted
poems inscribed with apathy. Condemn
throughout eternity this pestilent infanticide,
this gangrenous ignorance festering
three hundred thousand sores a year.
Call it Restaveck, call it Haiti.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I strongly disagree that these tragedies were acts of God. See what your rabbi says.

Pardon me for quoting myself:


A map will only get you to where others have already been.


My rabbi (if I had one) would very likely say what his or her rabbi said, all the way back to Moses.

[firefangled]

Pardon me for quoting myself:


A map will only get you to where others have already been.




And that is not always a bad thing, Prince, sometimes that is precisely where we should be going. The secret is to select our maps wisely. Some of the greatest trailblazers began humbly where others had been before.

We should not blame the source of a gift for what we do with it after it is ours.

[PrinceMyshkin]

And that is not always a bad thing, Prince, sometimes that is precisely where we should be going. The secret is to select our maps wisely. Some of the greatest trailblazers began humbly where others had been before.

We should not blame the source of a gift for what we do with it after it is ours.

Another of my own maxims:


Arrive at the same place but by a different route.


That is, insofar as I conceive of my life to have a purpose, it is to find my own way through the thicket of possibilities, traps, false allures &c.

Here's a fantasy I once constructed during the days when everyone spoke of looking for the answer:

Among the pieces of mail you receive one morning is one letter, hand-addressed to you, no back address. In one corner is written "The answer is inside."

Consider your reaction and subsequent behaviour, following which I will describe how I'd react.

[Bar22do]

Another of my own maxims:


Arrive at the same place but by a different route.


That is, insofar as I conceive of my life to have a purpose, it is to find my own way through the thicket of possibilities, traps, false allures &c.

Here's a fantasy I once constructed during the days when everyone spoke of looking for the answer:

Among the pieces of mail you receive one morning is one letter, hand-addressed to you, no back address. In one corner is written "The answer is inside."

Consider your reaction and subsequent behaviour, following which I will describe how I'd react.

If I am allowed - how would you describe the fragment of your way that (if) you have discovered and have walked on this far? to which extent it is really your way? and - who are you, anyway!, amongst the Princes?

[firefangled]

The secret is to select our maps wisely.

[PrinceMyshkin]

If I am allowed - how would you describe the fragment of your way that (if) you have discovered and have walked on this far? to which extent it is really your way? and - who are you, anyway!, amongst the Princes?


Oh my! I thought you were going to ask me an easy question, such as how to reconcile Einstein's Theory of Relativity with Quantum Dynamics, but...

The way I have discovered or am in process of walking, somewhat cautiously, is to expect or at least to demand less and focus more on what I can give, in paraphrase of the late Pres. Kennedy: "Ask not what humanity can do for you but what you can do for humanity."

As to who I am I would say a grandfather and a father, a Jew (strictly non-practicing), a loving friend to several and...

a person who will very likely always be at least in part stumped by the challenge to define who I am.

Now, fair's fair: Did you really expect you could ask those questions without being challenged to provide your own answers as to yourself?

[Bar22do]

Oh my! I thought you were going to ask me an easy question, such as how to reconcile Einstein's Theory of Relativity with Quantum Dynamics, but...

The way I have discovered or am in process of walking, somewhat cautiously, is to expect or at least to demand less and focus more on what I can give, in paraphrase of the late Pres. Kennedy: "Ask not what humanity can do for you but what you can do for humanity."

As to who I am I would say a grandfather and a father, a Jew (strictly non-practicing), a loving friend to several and...

a person who will very likely always be at least in part stumped by the challenge to define who I am.

Now, fair's fair: Did you really expect you could ask those questions without being challenged to provide your own answers as to yourself?

but - it wasn't a reproach, (problematic) God forbid! it was pure interest in your line of thinking! to learn a relative quantum more about life!

[firefangled]

Here's a fantasy I once constructed during the days when everyone spoke of looking for the answer:

Among the pieces of mail you receive one morning is one letter, hand-addressed to you, no back address. In one corner is written "The answer is inside."

Consider your reaction and subsequent behaviour, following which I will describe how I'd react.

My hasty reply was all I had time for at work today, but all I can say about receiving an envelope like the one above is that I would not even open it. I would throw it away like so many other apparent promises I receive in the mail. To me it is the equivalent of a get rich quick claim. In my life nothing has ever come that easy, nor would I want it to.

I think it is unrealistic and arrogant to think we can get through this life without assistance, without following to some extent those who have gone before us. There is a time and a place for independence, but in the end I don't know anyone personally nor have I heard of anyone whose way did not bear the footprint of another.

Not to long ago I finished a book, Undaunted Courage, about Lewis and Clark and their opening of a passage through the American western territory. Thinking about their journey in the context of this discussion, I would say that maps come in many forms. Their trek began with a map made by Albert Gallatin showing routes to the Pacific Ocean from eastern America. Lewis and Clark would not have succeeded without what others had learned about getting from the Mississippi to the Pacific Ocean.

Frost gave great attention to each word he selected for his poems. There is great wisdom in choosing the word "less" in The Road Not Taken:

"I took the one less traveled by..."

[PrinceMyshkin]

My hasty reply was all I had time for at work today, but all I can say about receiving an envelope like the one above is that I would not even open it. I would throw it away like so many other apparent promises I receive in the mail. To me it is the equivalent of a get rich quick claim. In my life nothing has ever come that easy, nor would I want it to.

Perhaps I should have stipulated in laying out my fantasy that intuition told you that this envelope and its contents were not the equivalent of some get-rich-quick scheme, but a sincere offer to share the sender's insight, free of charge?

Fundamental to my elaboration of this fantasy was the certainty that I wouldn't open that envelope either - at least, not at once. I'd carry it to the kitchen, put some water on to boil, get a lined pad and a writing implement and as soon as my coffee was made, I'd give earnest thought to writing down what I thought "the answer" was.

Only then would I open the envelope and read the contents, because once I had read it - no matter how wise and/or unexpected it was - I'd have forfeited my "God-given" chance to come up with it on my own.


I think it is unrealistic and arrogant to think we can get through this life without assistance,

But which of us is not "unrealistic and arrogant," e.g., as in the belief that every new love is the love? And could we ever love without that arrogant unrealism?


without following to some extent those who have gone before us. There is a time and a place for independence, but in the end I don't know anyone personally nor have I heard of anyone whose way did not bear the footprint of another.

Not to long ago I finished a book, Undaunted Courage, about Lewis and Clark and their opening of a passage through the American western territory. Thinking about their journey in the context of this discussion, I would say that maps come in many forms. Their trek began with a map made by Albert Gallatin showing routes to the Pacific Ocean from eastern America. Lewis and Clark would not have succeeded without what others had learned about getting from the Mississippi to the Pacific Ocean.

Frost gave great attention to each word he selected for his poems. There is great wisdom in choosing the word "less" in The Road Not Taken:

"I took the one less traveled by..."

Good. Thank you, I will bear in mind that "less" when I am tempted to think "not."


This part disturbs me: "We will read the anti-Bible in the ruined faces" - perhaps I misunderstand the metaphor.

What I read in the faces of the living is shock, pain, grief, and a longing for help. In the dead: a release from their earthly cares.

CNN has given information that 80% of the population is Catholic, and I feel sure that the majority of the remaining 20% are of other faiths. The prayers of the people of Haiti have been uttered; and heard and acted upon by angels on high, and angels in the form of selfless men and women, regardless of their faith or non-faith, on the earth.

I pray that all who can give, will give.

Charity never faileth.

My intent with the "anti-Bible" is that The Bible kind of assures us that everything is or will be all right, that we are in the hands of a beneficent deity. I implied that the faces of the maimed and the dead provided a different reading.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

[Dinkleberry2010]

xxxxxxx

[PrinceMyshkin]

You need to explain just what you meant by a certain line in your poem: the line "we will read the anti-Bible in the ruined faces.", because some might find that line offensive, and you need to explain it. You need to go into detail about what you meant. The scanty remarks you have given do not explain or justify what you meant by that certain line.

The post preceding yours offers all the explanation that line needs, or is going to get.

[Dinkleberry2010]

xxxxxx

[MorpheusSandman]

Oh my; I must say I'm infinitely more mesmerized by the discussion this piece has generated than in the piece itself (No offense Prince; I think it's far from your best effort) and yet... damn, if the purpose of great art is all about communication and how much it provokes people to question and comment on their own understandings and express themselves in response then this piece must be a great work of art in itself!

To play devil's advocate (because, as I've told Prince, I'm atheist agnostic who doesn't believe that God exists but am open to the possibility I could be proven wrong; the evidence just seems to point to any version of him/her/it existing): if you want the typical Biblical answer it's possible to say that God created us and meant for our existence to be a paradise. Adam/Eve "fell", and that allowed all the sin and evil that exists in this world to exist. The argument is that we are responsible either directly or indirectly for every single bad thing that's happened to us going back to Adam. I think to many this seems incomprehensible because of the "sins of the father" maxim.

Now, going back to playing myself: I think Haiti was a disaster area long before this recent 'immense' tragedy. I don't want to play the pessimistic nihilist (I'm really not) but this entire world has a gigantic problem with over-population and how that leads naturally to a lack of resources; it doesn't help when the wealthy are hogging as many of the resources as they can. I simply don't think mankind - not matter how much we like to dress ourselves up in sophisticated civilizations, societies, morals, and religious duty - is an animal that's truly altruistic enough to solve a problem like this. While I can feel sorry that innocent lives are being lost and even more are suffering there's part of me that realizes this is inevitable given human nature.

I don't think it's about accepting or condoning or blaming or pointing the finger at complacency or selfishness because no matter how nice and idealistic the "be the change you want to see" matra is the fact is that there isn't enough immediately perceptible negative stimuli to force those in the have to stop the hoarding and I truly believe that, deep down, man is a selfish animal first who is out for his own survival and comfort and even after a millenia of moralizing that core hasn't really changed.

Blech, this post is depressing me because while I often think about these things I tend to rarely say them because I try my best not to fit into that category; I'm sure nobody does, but I see way to much rationalizing away the idea that we don't when in fact too many of us do.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Oh my; I must say I'm infinitely more mesmerized by the discussion this piece has generated than in the piece itself (No offense Prince; I think it's far from your best effort)

No offense taken. I'm a wee disappointed, yes, especially in the context of the many instances where you have praised other of my poems. But that you choose to critique or even to dismiss one of them only highlights the sincerity of your praise elsewhere.


and yet... damn, if the purpose of great art is all about communication and how much it provokes people to question and comment on their own understandings and express themselves in response then this piece must be a great work of art in itself!

To play devil's advocate (because, as I've told Prince, I'm atheist agnostic who doesn't believe that God exists but am open to the possibility I could be proven wrong; the evidence just seems to point to any version of him/her/it existing): if you want the typical Biblical answer it's possible to say that God created us and meant for our existence to be a paradise. Adam/Eve "fell", and that allowed all the sin and evil that exists in this world to exist. The argument is that we are responsible either directly or indirectly for every single bad thing that's happened to us going back to Adam. I think to many this seems incomprehensible because of the "sins of the father" maxim.

Now, going back to playing myself: I think Haiti was a disaster area long before this recent 'immense' tragedy. I don't want to play the pessimistic nihilist (I'm really not) but this entire world has a gigantic problem with over-population and how that leads naturally to a lack of resources; it doesn't help when the wealthy are hogging as many of the resources as they can. I simply don't think mankind - not matter how much we like to dress ourselves up in sophisticated civilizations, societies, morals, and religious duty - is an animal that's truly altruistic enough to solve a problem like this. While I can feel sorry that innocent lives are being lost and even more are suffering there's part of me that realizes this is inevitable given human nature.

The validity of your argument, if it needed any - is that several years ago an earthquake of comparable severity occurred somewhere in California, but because the homes and public structures there were so much better built than anything in Port au Prince, a 'mere' 100-200 people died rather than the estimated 140,000 in Haiti.



I don't think it's about accepting or condoning or blaming or pointing the finger at complacency or selfishness because no matter how nice and idealistic the "be the change you want to see" matra is the fact is that there isn't enough immediately perceptible negative stimuli to force those in the have to stop the hoarding and I truly believe that, deep down, man is a selfish animal first who is out for his own survival and comfort and even after a millenia of moralizing that core hasn't really changed.

Blech, this post is depressing me because while I often think about these things I tend to rarely say them because I try my best not to fit into that category; I'm sure nobody does, but I see way to much rationalizing away the idea that we don't when in fact too many of us do.

I salute you, my friend.

[Dinkleberry2010]

zxxxxxx

[tailor STATELY]

To my earlier comments:
My intent with the "anti-Bible" is that The Bible kind of assures us that everything is or will be all right, that we are in the hands of a beneficent deity. I implied that the faces of the maimed and the dead provided a different reading.Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Ah, now I see. Thank you for your explanation. For mine own understanding (others may vary): It's the natural man who might see the "anti-Bible" in their faces; the natural man that seeks contention and opposition; that same natural man I fight within myself every day with my faith. It is my faith that assures me everything will be all right.

All in all I have enjoyed the discussion your poem has generated; necessary and timely, and dare I say provocative.

Well done.

[Robin Koykka]

It is not surprising that many of mankind blame God for natural disasters... man has been doing this for millenniums. Why is this... 1John 5:19 says that the god of this system of thing is Satan. Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. That is one reason why there is so much suffering.
This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9)
But how does that fit it in in the case of an earthquake?
God is not causing the earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, droughts, and volcanic eruptions that are so often in today’s news. He is not using these to bring punishment on certain peoples.
To a large extent, these are caused by natural forces that have been operating since the earth’s creation. The Bible foretold great earthquakes and food shortages for our day, but that does not mean that either God or Jesus is responsible for them, any more than a meteorologist is responsible for the weather that he forecasts. Because these are occurring along with all the other things foretold in the composite sign of the conclusion of this system of things, they are part of the evidence that the blessings of God’s Kingdom are near.—Luke 21:11, 31.
Humans often bear heavy responsibility for harm done. In what way? Even when given ample warning, many people refuse to get out of the danger area or fail to take needed precautions.—Prov. 22:3; compare Matthew 24:37-39.
God can control such natural forces. He empowered Jesus Christ to calm a storm on the Sea of Galilee, as an example of what He will do for mankind under His Messianic Kingdom. (Mark 4:37-41) By turning his back on God, Adam rejected such divine intervention on behalf of himself and his offspring. Those who are granted life during Christ’s Messianic Reign will experience such loving care, the kind of care that only a government empowered by God can give.—Isa. 11:9.
This is much to take in, and I appreciate your kindness in allowing me to give the Bible view point in order to protect the good name of our creator.
There is so much anxiety in the hearts of many... as you close your eyes to pray for those in Haiti, think of this scripture from 1Peter 5:7 that says, "...throw all your anxiety upon him, because he cares for you."

[PrinceMyshkin]

Robin Koykka: Your forgoing post is the well-articulated testament of a believer but to one, like me, who doesn't believe, there are problems with it. In the first place so much of it is based on an ancient book, in which God is presented in so many different lights: He (She or It) is at times forgiving, at other times wrathful, alternately magnanimous and petty... And then that book has been interpreted and re-interpreted by others; on the other hand we are told that God is a mystery to us: we cannot even know or pronounce his real name.

Either we can speak for God - each according to his or her understanding: in which case he might be construed to be an infinite variety of things, or - or we cannot.

[Robin Koykka]

Robin Koykka: Your forgoing post is the well-articulated testament of a believer but to one, like me, who doesn't believe, there are problems with it. In the first place so much of it is based on an ancient book, in which God is presented in so many different lights: He (She or It) is at times forgiving, at other times wrathful, alternately magnanimous and petty... And then that book has been interpreted and re-interpreted by others; on the other hand we are told that God is a mystery to us: we cannot even know or pronounce his real name.

Either we can speak for God - each according to his or her understanding: in which case he might be construed to be an infinite variety of things, or - or we cannot.

Dear Prince,
Thank you for your compliment. For a moment I ask you not to believe but to consider. If there is a God that can create all this that we enjoy, does it seem comprehensible that he is able to retain an "ancient book" with his truths for man to learn from even though many of the inhabitants of his creation do not believe in him? God told mankind his name for them to get to know him better... some say Yahweh, some Jehovah. It is the meaning of that name that fits in with all that you have said... his name means " he causes to become" he will become what ever is required at a specific time. In times where he is needed a protector, he has been a source of salvation for his people. he has been a loving provider, and redeemer when mankind rebelled against him and he sent his son as a ransom. He is known not to have love... but to be love, he is the personification of it.
He doesn't get angry when people do not believe in him or make up lies about him, or disregard all that he has done. He knows that if the person who does not believe will open his heart just a little, and listen with an open mind they can find the answers to all the questions in there life in that "ancient book." Do not be hard on yourself for your lack of faith for the God of all comfort and the hearer of prayer continues to be patient with mankind as he instructs his servant s to patiently preach and teach those who will listen.
God is not far off from you even though some may tell you he is impossible to know.
You can speak with theocratic understanding if that is your fond desire, Jesus said that he that has seen him has seen the father... his life is a good beginning to learn about his father since he was a perfect image of him.
Please don't let other men determine your scope of knowledge, or determine your eventuality. Read learn and then with a comprehensive accurate knowledge decide. I wish you the best.
Jehovah invites us to express our confidence in him by speaking to him repeatedly about things that concern us. “Keep on asking, and it will be given you,” said Jesus. But this does not mean that Jehovah is reluctant to respond to those who love and respect him as a Father. Rather, Jesus said: “If you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!”—Luke 11:5-13.
Ask him and he will give you the faith you need to make the right choice.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Dear Prince,
Thank you for your compliment. For a moment I ask you not to believe but to consider. If there is a God that can create all this that we enjoy, does it seem comprehensible that he is able to retain an "ancient book" with his truths for man to learn from even though many of the inhabitants of his creation do not believe in him? God told mankind his name for them to get to know him better... some say Yahweh, some Jehovah. It is the meaning of that name that fits in with all that you have said... his name means " he causes to become" he will become what ever is required at a specific time. In times where he is needed a protector, he has been a source of salvation for his people. he has been a loving provider, and redeemer when mankind rebelled against him and he sent his son as a ransom. He is known not to have love... but to be love, he is the personification of it.
He doesn't get angry when people do not believe in him or make up lies about him, or disregard all that he has done. He knows that if the person who does not believe will open his heart just a little, and listen with an open mind they can find the answers to all the questions in there life in that "ancient book." Do not be hard on yourself for your lack of faith for the God of all comfort and the hearer of prayer continues to be patient with mankind as he instructs his servant s to patiently preach and teach those who will listen.
God is not far off from you even though some may tell you he is impossible to know.
You can speak with theocratic understanding if that is your fond desire, Jesus said that he that has seen him has seen the father... his life is a good beginning to learn about his father since he was a perfect image of him.
Please don't let other men determine your scope of knowledge, or determine your eventuality. Read learn and then with a comprehensive accurate knowledge decide. I wish you the best.
Jehovah invites us to express our confidence in him by speaking to him repeatedly about things that concern us. “Keep on asking, and it will be given you,” said Jesus. But this does not mean that Jehovah is reluctant to respond to those who love and respect him as a Father. Rather, Jesus said: “If you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!”—Luke 11:5-13.
Ask him and he will give you the faith you need to make the right choice.

What it seems to me to come down to is that you are asking me to have faith in faith - which I cannot or will not do anymore than I would jump off what appears to me to be a steep cliff.

It appears to me as if you and I live in two different universes. Yours is governed by a benevolent being and all you need to do to live a good life is to study His words and follow them. In my universe there are question marks, but between these two - like the corpus collosum that connects the left and right hemispheres of the brain - between them there is a measure of civility and mutual respect.

I would prefer that we build on that rather than either of us try to convert the other to her/his way of seeing.

[Pendragon]

We will mingle with God
in the devastation that is Haiti.
We will read the anti-Bible
in the ruined faces,
the bodies in their awkward postures.
Auschwitz in just a few moments,
Dachau piled upon Bergen-Belsen.
To them that hath
poverty shall be given
despair.


A most fitting tribute to the disaster. Fortunately, they are still discovering survivors which is in itself a miracle... Wonder if the world will look the other way as it did in the events of the Holocaust?

[PrinceMyshkin]

A most fitting tribute to the disaster. Fortunately, they are still discovering survivors which is in itself a miracle... Wonder if the world will look the other way as it did in the events of the Holocaust?

But, thankfully, the entire world seems to be rushing to assist. I was heartened to see that the 2nd largest contribution, after that of the US, was the cumulative total by unidentified individuals!

[MorpheusSandman]

No offense taken. I'm a wee disappointed, yes, especially in the context of the many instances where you have praised other of my poems. But that you choose to critique or even to dismiss one of them only highlights the sincerity of your praise elsewhere.Consider it nothing more than a personal negative reflex I have against poetry that's topical (I practically had the same reaction to my own "Capitalism VS Communism" piece). Eric Rohmer, the great and recently late film director once said he never understood American cinema's tendency to film recent events since we're so inundated with those events on the news which is why he chose to make strictly fictional films. I feel much the same about most art about contemporary events without a significant amount of time separating the piece and the event.

[Drkshadow03]

We will mingle with God
in the devastation that is Haiti.
We will read the anti-Bible
in the ruined faces,
the bodies in their awkward postures.
Auschwitz in just a few moments,
Dachau piled upon Bergen-Belsen.
To them that hath
poverty shall be given
despair.

Prince, I thought the opening lines were a little brusque. I almost like the second sentence as an opening:

"We will read the anti-Bible
in the ruined faces,"

I love those lines by the way. That was the best part of the whole poem. Like many others I didn't quite buy the juxtaposition between the Holocaust and the tragic earthquakes that happened in Haiti. So I guess at the end of the day the poem doesn't quite work for me. But I really did like that one sentence.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Consider it nothing more than a personal negative reflex I have against poetry that's topical (I practically had the same reaction to my own "Capitalism VS Communism" piece). Eric Rohmer, the great and recently late film director once said he never understood American cinema's tendency to film recent events since we're so inundated with those events on the news which is why he chose to make strictly fictional films. I feel much the same about most art about contemporary events without a significant amount of time separating the piece and the event.

May I paraphrase a statement by the late Tip O'Neil: "All poetry is topical..." One might write a poem about a constituent part of a large, very powerful nation in which an unexpected election result appeared to have a calamitous effect on the powers in charge, but that poem might also be about the fickleness or contrariness of the populace, about the vagaries of fate, the apparent downfall of a great hero... Themes worthy of an epic!

[MorpheusSandman]

I tend to look at poetry (and all art) as being where we connect the contemporary and temporary with the eternal. There was no better author at achieving this than Shakespeare which seemed to see right through the persona of every major modern theme right to the things lying underneath them that stretched throughout the eternity of man. I think the trick is conjoining them in a way where one highlights and compliments the other which is a very difficult thing to do. It's way too easy, especially with pieces about immediate topical events, for the "now" of a piece to utterly obscure those universal elements. I think, perhaps, it's that that I can't get past in pieces like this. I'm not saying those universal elements aren't there; I just can't see them personally.

[Babbalanja]

It's way too easy, especially with pieces about immediate topical events, for the "now" of a piece to utterly obscure those universal elements. I think, perhaps, it's that that I can't get past in pieces like this. I agree.

This is just disaster porn, like the current news coverage of this disaster. It's trying to show how concerned it is about the victims, but forgets to examine the causes of such suffering. Sentiments are easy when they're expressed this far from the tragedy.

Regards,

Istvan

[Dinkleberry2010]

xxxxxxxx

[MorpheusSandman]

I wasn't attempting to dismiss all topical art, Jermac, but I merely said that too much topical art obscures the universal elements in the contemporary ones. If this is going to happen then it needs to offer something - a though, an expression, an aesthetic, emotion, etc. - that I haven't already been inundated with from the news. In a piece like this I can't help but have the same reaction I have to any news pictures of the devastation and those who are suffering. I realize people are suffering, I realize it's a disaster; but how many ways can you paint a disaster and suffering before people become immune? It would truly take an artist as great as Picasso to create art that would provide people with something they didn't already have (plus, Picasso didn't have to work against around the clock news coverage).

[PrinceMyshkin]

I wasn't attempting to dismiss all topical art, Jermac, but I merely said that too much topical art obscures the universal elements in the contemporary ones. If this is going to happen then it needs to offer something - a though, an expression, an aesthetic, emotion, etc. - that I haven't already been inundated with from the news. In a piece like this I can't help but have the same reaction I have to any news pictures of the devastation and those who are suffering. I realize people are suffering, I realize it's a disaster; but how many ways can you paint a disaster and suffering before people become immune? It would truly take an artist as great as Picasso to create art that would provide people with something they didn't already have (plus, Picasso didn't have to work against around the clock news coverage).

And to Babbalanja as well: Because it's part of the record, I'm going to let the poem stand as I posted it, though I now regret having drawn an analogy between the earthquake and the Holocaust, because a) the latter may have served to divert attention from the former and b) it was disrespectful to the victims (Jewish and others) of the Holocaust.

I once made a vow to myself never to use the Holocaust, certainly not as a metaphor or in any way that would exploit that period of history.