Learning a New Langauge

[Veho]

Hi,

I want to learn another language, either German or French (I haven't decided yet). From reading this forum, I've seen that many of you speak more than your original language, so I was wondering what's the best way of learning? I've had a look at those book and CDs that you can buy, but I'm not sure if they're any good really.

What did you find most effective when learning a second (or third/fourth etc) language?

[stephofthenight]

I find total emersion to be efficient. when I learned German, which I have forgoten most of, It was because I had a foreign exchange student living with me and that was the only communication. very intersting. there are lots of good books on french, and most universitys/schools offer it. as for german not sure where you live and that determins what you can find. if you get on a chat room, or something with web cam, you can generaly find someone else intersted in learning your language this is another good way to learn and it helps both of you. the dummy book series is actualy really good for languages. you can probably find someone on here to help you. courses tend to go like this.

1. memorization of verbs ect.
2. sentence structure
3. basic converstaion.

I would find somone to talk to with it, or just get a translation dictonary and look things up to memorize... Such as one week do food names, and then use them throught the week.

Thats my .02

[JBI]

Depends on the language, but rule of thumb - best way is full absorption, second best way is classroom/private lessons. CDs and such are essentially a waste of time if you want to learn anything.

German, for instance, can be learned to a basic level from textbooks perhaps, but you'll need to supplement hours and hours later somewhere else. French is a very textbookish language, but you still will need to supplement for listening and speaking.


Rule of thumb, the do-it-yourself coursework usually will get you, if you spend 1000$ and get what you would have had at a beginner level in a university anyway (assuming we are going on Canadian prices) you got ripped off. Not only are self-training courses slow, they also don't teach proper language (from experience).

[stephofthenight]

Not only are self-training courses slow, they also don't teach proper language (from experience).

Actualy, I find the problem is that they teach only the old, original proper language. When I took Spanish in HS even the spanish speaking students had difficulty. because it was the original proper language. now there is the mixture of slang,and what would have been proper before is now insulting in many cases... which is why its best to have someone who knows the language help you...

[JBI]

Actualy, I find the problem is that they teach only the old, original proper language. When I took Spanish in HS even the spanish speaking students had difficulty. because it was the original proper language. now there is the mixture of slang,and what would have been proper before is now insulting in many cases... which is why its best to have someone who knows the language help you...

Er, to an extent, it also depends on the language. For instance, I tried a Chinese one, and it felt like the words were translated by a non-speaker with a dictionary. So, for instance, verbs needing an object would not have objects, modal verbs weren't used properly, and nouns weren't colloquial or properly translated either.

So, for instance, I want to go eat dinner with my friends tonight. 今晚我要跟我的朋友一起去饭馆吃饭。 Jin1 Wan3 wo3 yao4 gen1 wo3 de peng2 you yi4 qi3 qu4 fan4 guan3 chi1 fan4.

So essentially, in English, tonight (jin wan) I (wo) want (yao) with my friends (gen wo de peng you), together (yi qi), go (qu) restaurant(fan guan) eat food (chi fan).

The recording had it, 我想去商店吃今天晚上跟我的朋友. Which is kind of like, I am considering/thinking about (undecided) go to a shop eat (no object) tonight with friend. It is completely off, and in the wrong word order.


Of course, the Italian one is perhaps better, given that one can find professionals who speak both languages. But even then, the language isn't real, and is confusing.

Those CDs and do it yourself kits generally are survival kits for people who want to be able to barely survive as tourists. One cannot speak fluently without having first spoken fluently. Beyond that too, the phrasing is unnatural, and the dialog always feels choppy. Also, important things like pronouns or which verb tense to use often go slightly ignored.




My advice, if you want to get anywhere, enroll yourself in challenging courses, preferably at a university - I say that because many courses outside of academic settings are more geared towards slower, less serious education, or for speaking in business situations. The more challenging the course, generally, the better you'll come out. Of course, money is a problem though, so it depends where you are - in the US for example, high level education is pricier than here - in Europe it is cheaper.


Also, another note, never use computer software - they don't work, especially the most popular one Rosetta Stone, which is really a crappy flashcard system with unnatural word choices and poor sentence construction.

[OrphanPip]

I would definitely go with a course, many major cities will have small schools for languages. The Goethe Institut has offices in a lot of cities and offers German courses. They're a non-profit that promotes German culture and language internationally.

Edit: A proper language course should prepare you for writing the CEF exams for that language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languag es

[JBI]

I would definitely go with a course, many major cities will have small schools for languages. The Goethe Institut has offices in a lot of cities and offers German courses. They're a non-profit that promotes German culture and language internationally.

Edit: A proper language course should prepare you for writing the CEF exams for that language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languag es

Hmm, I wonder if the Goethe institute is as big a propaganda mill as the Confucius institute. Somehow all those institutes seem to be trying to promote a "global culture" based on the "long and important traditions" or whatever and the "importance of the language and culture in the world."

At least people know the Confucius Institute is essentially a propaganda bureau though.

[AmericanEagle]

So, for instance, I want to go eat dinner with my friends tonight. 今晚我要跟我的朋友一起去饭馆吃饭。 Jin1 Wan3 wo3 yao4 gen1 wo3 de peng2 you yi4 qi3 qu4 fan4 guan3 chi1 fan4.

The recording had it, 我想去商店吃今天晚上跟我的朋友. Which is kind of like, I am considering/thinking about (undecided) go to a shop eat (no object) tonight with friend. It is completely off, and in the wrong word order.

Doesn't 想 mean "want"? And 要 means "need"?

[Nietzsche]

It depends on your personal learning styles. No one learns the same way so some methods may be better than others.

I would recommend German. It's closer to English than French, as English's roots lie in the north of Germany, Netherlands, and Denmark. There are an abundance of methods to learn German with.

I recommend Berlitz Premier German program, it is a Beginner -Intermediate- Advanced package including a computer program that is very well made and thorough as well as a Pimsleur style audio CD set.

Eurotalk Interactive makes good sets for learning as well.

If you would like, PM me and I can help you figure out what works best for you with your learning styles, time and budget constraints.

I specialize in languages. I speak English, German, a bit of Swiss, a small bit of Swedish, and can read a little Old English.

ielanguages.com is a great free place to learn most of the major european languages, both Indo European and non-indo european in origin.

[JBI]

Doesn't 想 mean "want"? And 要 means "need"?

Er, no, 想 is to think of, to consider, to miss, to desire. 要 is more decisive, it means To want (and plan on getting), to plan to, to be about to (when used with the particle 了, and also, in the sense of ordering food, 我要青菜, I want green vegetables, and also it combines to make must with 需要。

Both mean to want, but one of them is correct in the context, so you wouldn't, for instance, I think, as somebody if they are thinking about going out with you 你想不想跟我出去? you would need a 要， 你要不要跟我出去？.

But the language itself is more flexible, it would seem with modal verbs because of the tag questions. 應該 aught to 願意 to be willing 能 able at an instance 可以 allowed, etc. So, do you want, or are you willing can be substituted, but asking somebody if they are considering doesn't make much sense to me, even though it could be done that way, in the sense that "do you want to come" versus in English when we really mean "are you coming, or can you come, or should I expect you".

At least, that's how I was taught.

[AmericanEagle]

你想不想跟我出去?

I would interpret this as "Do you want to go out with me?"


你要不要跟我出去?

I would interpret this as "Do you have to (or need to) go out with me?"

[JBI]

I would interpret this as "Do you want to go out with me?"



I would interpret this as "Do you have to (or need to) go out with me?"

Kind of, but not need, the way I understand it is, "do you want to go out with me" not specific instance, "are you coming out with me" which is referring to a specific instance.


Either way, we better stop now, otherwise I'll get banned, or the posts will be deleted for using to much Chinese that can't be moderated.

[Hurricane]

I tried learning Russian on my own a couple years ago and the hardest part I found about learning it was proper pronunciation. You can listen to a CD all you want, but it's very difficult to properly match, and if you're off it's even harder to get on track without an instructor or native speaker to push you in the right direction.
I took an intro to Russian class first semester freshman year, and I picked it up much quicker and much more thoroughly. I still have a hard time with pronunciation (the only other language I'd studied before was Latin...and therefore I wasn't used to speaking anything that wasn't English), but I'm less wrong for whatever that's worth.

[OrphanPip]

Hmm, I wonder if the Goethe institute is as big a propaganda mill as the Confucius institute. Somehow all those institutes seem to be trying to promote a "global culture" based on the "long and important traditions" or whatever and the "importance of the language and culture in the world."

At least people know the Confucius Institute is essentially a propaganda bureau though.

Probably, but their 12 week courses are 450 dollars and apparently they're very good. This only puts it at about 200-250 dollars more than a university course, but they have much more flexible hours.

[JBI]

Probably, but their 12 week courses are 450 dollars and apparently they're very good. This only puts it at about 200-250 dollars more than a university course, but they have much more flexible hours.

How many class hours - in the University of Toronto it is 96 hours of class for 960$ or something, excluding deductions from scholarships and grants, but that is supposedly on the pricey end since it is a degree-granting institution. 460 for 12 weeks sounds a bit pricey to me.

[OrphanPip]

Seems to be 37 and 1/2 hours since it's 3 1/2 per week. Seems to be of comparable cost to the UoT. Although, in Quebec all our universities are public and I used to pay about 200 dollars per course I took at McGill. I'm not sure if the same prices apply to continuing education courses.

[Nietzsche]

I tried learning Russian on my own a couple years ago and the hardest part I found about learning it was proper pronunciation. You can listen to a CD all you want, but it's very difficult to properly match, and if you're off it's even harder to get on track without an instructor or native speaker to push you in the right direction.
I took an intro to Russian class first semester freshman year, and I picked it up much quicker and much more thoroughly. I still have a hard time with pronunciation (the only other language I'd studied before was Latin...and therefore I wasn't used to speaking anything that wasn't English), but I'm less wrong for whatever that's worth.

I do not know about Russian, but relevant to the Original Poster, the Berlitz German software has a feature that analyzes your voice, including the fricatives, vowels, pitch, etc separately to get your voice as close as you can to the original Germans speaker. Eurotalk's series for all languages has a similar but more simpler feature where you merely record your voice, and play it back next to the original speaker and see how close it sounds.

Berlitz Premier is available in German, Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, French, Spanish, English, and Italian. They can be found for under 50 typically, MUCH better in price and actual functionality than Rosetta Stone in my experience (I do not like or recommend Rosetta Stone. It has the same features as other better programs at an extremely overblown price, and can be installed once EVER. Computer crash? tough luck.). Again, the software also comes with an audio course too that is pretty good.

Eurotalk Interactive's programs are about 30 dollars. There are various levels of them (such as Talk Now! , Talk the Talk! , Talk More!, etc ) and are available in over 100 languages as well as dialects. You can also use any language pretty much to learn from. For instance, I purchased the Eurotalk series for Swiss German (schwiizertüütsch) and have all of the levels. I can select to use either German or English (and between British and American english at that! ) to learn Swiss. Also, no matter what language you learn from it come with a printable picture dictionary which is very nice to have. You can compile a notebook with all of the phrases in all of the levels from all 3 program levels.

Oh, and by the way on BOTH of these program series, they are Macintosh and Windows compatible. I highly recommend both series.

On another note, the Teach Yourself series of books , available on Amazon.com , cover a wide variety of languages and offer an approach that immerses you into reading texts, feeding you more grammar and vocabulary as you progress through the book. Some of them come with a CD that can read the texts to you, Old English does I know but I've seen some languages that do not.

So, Eurotalk & Berlitz Premier are great if you are the type that does best in immersion, and Berlitz also addresses audio learners as well. Teach yourself is best for textbook type learners who learn best from reading.

Personally, I recommend a triple dose. Approach it from all angles, virtual immersion, audio, and visual/text reading. If you learn something using more than one sense, you are far more likely to grasp and remember it. I might also add that the Berlitz program comes with Mp3s ready for use on an iPod or other Mp3 player for portable audio learning. The first level in the Eurotalk series, Talk Now! Does as well. for Talk Now! you will need iTunes installed to access the Mp3s from the program, but it's not a big deal.

[Emil Miller]

Someone has already mentioned that we respond differently to the various methods in learning a foreign language and I think this is true. In my own case, I found that going to a language school was the first step to getting some idea of the language's structure. A good dual dictionary is absolutely essential whichever method you decide to use and it should be referred to constantly. However, there is no finer way of learning a languge than to actually live in the country concerned and avoiding people of your own nationality like the plague so that you are forced to think in the language rather than just speak it. In my own case, after having gained the rudiments, I went to work in a steelworks in Germany. Working with the steelworkers gave me an insight into the colloquial language to a degree that I could never have got from text books or the language school. I made a lot of friends there and even when visiting those who spoke good English, I always insisted on speaking German. It all depends on whether you really want to speak another language or whether it is just some vague desire: if the latter, forget it because learning a foreign tongue is never easy.

[Veho]

Thanks for all your advice. It's given me a lot to consider.

Nietzsche I like the sound of the Berlitz German software. I agree that approaching it from all angles will be most effective. I will have a look to see if there are any classes local to me as well. I guess with a mix of the software and classes, it might be easier to pick up. I did do five years of German in high school, but that was four years ago and I've forgotten most of it.

Brian Bean I want to go and work abroad (I currently live in the UK) after I've finished my degree, so that is the main reason for learning a second language. :)

Thanks again.

[Annamariah]

I learned English and Swedish in comprehensive school and started Russian at the university, so I've always had teachers to help me with language learning. I think you can learn by yourself too, if you have good materials and most importantly motivation. I don't know what language textbooks are like in your part of the world, but the ones I've had have been pretty good.

There's usually grammar in textbooks, but a separate grammar book might be a good investment, because it's easier to check things from it later on. While learning a new thing grammar sections in textbooks are often more simple and easier to understand.

I guess nowadays almost all textbooks have CDs with them, which is good, because you can't learn a language unless you can hear how it is spoken properly.

Still I think it would be best if you could get a teacher when you learn the basics, so that you get a strong base to build on later. It's easier to study more independently when you've gotten started properly.

[Nietzsche]

Thanks for all your advice. It's given me a lot to consider.

Nietzsche I like the sound of the Berlitz German software. I agree that approaching it from all angles will be most effective. I will have a look to see if there are any classes local to me as well. I guess with a mix of the software and classes, it might be easier to pick up. I did do five years of German in high school, but that was four years ago and I've forgotten most of it.


Thanks again.

Yes, a class is also good because it provides the social interaction aspect. If you get the software make sure you have a decent mic or headset too.

The more ways you approach it, the better. Language learning is all about immersion and doing. You can't read a book about a language and learn it. You have to USE it. As you can see from your taking it in school but not remembering it, maintaining your skills is important. If you ever need to practice, just message me.

[Silas Thorne]

The recording had it, 我想去商店吃今天晚上跟我的朋友. Which is kind of like, I am considering/thinking about (undecided) go to a shop eat (no object) tonight with friend. It is completely off, and in the wrong word order.


Oh dear, that's absolutely shocking! You don't eat in shops, but in restaurants, and the word order is absolutely atrocious! :) It could even mean that the speaker is going to eat tonight, where 'tonight' is the object. If you can eat the evening, will tomorrow morning ever be safe?

I wouldn't recommend most CD courses if you really want to learn a language well. However it is possible that with a good background already, some CD courses could help you pick up some useful vocabulary and phrases. Classroom study together with individual practise with native speakers in social situations would be a good start. Perhaps get to the country after you have a bit of a foundation (ideally with immersion together with language study), otherwise you'll have to resort to your own language a lot, especially (for English speakers in particular) since many places make it easy for people to get by only using English.