Going Green!

[ehs13]

I want to know, in what ways do you go green? It can be you, your family, or even a way that you're whole community participates! Wether just recycling or some other creative way. Personally, I recycle and use eggshells for my garden instead of throwing them away. :D

[JBI]

It's all a scam to get people's money. Anybody can see that these new energy efficient light bulbs just aren't bright - that's how they save energy, they suck.

Seriously, the average person pollutes very little, all this going green does is messes up economies - if you think of it, industrial power is put to the creation of new, "energy efficient products", which for a while contribute to GDP growth, but then will just die out, as everyone will have switched. To continue the system then, one needs to innovate to more ridiculous things - point taken, the whole concept of green is like organic food - a bourgeois misconception for the sake of making people feel good.

The real pollution, and the real big players are not every day people - driving a hybrid, or biking to work doesn't change anything. Likewise, ruining the pursuits of your life for the sake of feeling good about yourself does nothing - you pay the annoying guy sitting in front of the library yelling about saving the environment, and that generous donation gets turned into five other morons just like him, continuously begging you, and feeling good about themselves for "saving the world." It doesn't take much to be a hero, but if you think by being annoying, self-loving, or "green", whatever that means, you are helping the world - better to just grow 10 trees or houseplants for the money you save on not "going green", and your carbon dioxide wastage will have gone down far more.

Then again, for every bankrupt or shut down industrial plant here, a hundred coal plants pop up in China - unsurprisingly, all this green shift is doing is making the air over China worse, Western economies deteriorate, and the world? Well, I am not so sure human actions have been that drastic a cause for alarm anyway.


Green right now is just the new terrorism - everybody is pretty bored with that hot button issue, so now people are just moving on to complain about something else, for the sake of making themselves feel better. It has already entered poetic diction as well.

For the real issues, and the real environmental concerns, these green commercial industries aren't doing anything anyway.

[JuniperWoolf]

Lately I've been inclined to agree with JBI.

However, I'm green in that I eat animals that my dad kills instead of putting money into the slaughterhouse industry. I hear they're pretty awful.

[OrphanPip]

It's all a scam to get people's money. Anybody can see that these new energy efficient light bulbs just aren't bright - that's how they save energy, they suck.


Actually, CFLs do last longer and use less energy. I also don't find them to be all that much less bright. Incandescent light bulbs lose most of their energy use in creating heat, they are highly inefficient and last a lot less longer. CFLs are one of the few cost-effective green initiatives. I change the light bulb in my room like once a year, the convenience of that alone makes it worthwhile for me. A lot of people don't like fluorescent lighting though.

Those "efficient" incandescent bulbs do suck.

[JBI]

Actually, CFLs do last longer and use less energy. I also don't find them to be all that much less bright. Incandescent light bulbs lose most of their energy use in creating heat, they are highly inefficient and last a lot less longer. CFLs are one of the few cost-effective green initiatives. I change the light bulb in my room like once a year, the convenience of that alone makes it worthwhile for me. A lot of people don't like fluorescent lighting though.

Those "efficient" incandescent bulbs do suck.

They put on the news a discovery one scientist came up with when he did the math - in cold climates like Canada, the amount of heat not coming out of the light bulbs ends up using essentially the exact same energy when you change it to energy coming out of your heaters - the whole idea is kind of shabby.

The concept is that you have "longer lasting bulbs" in the sense that they don't use as much, and generate as much - OK for some people, but at 2:00AM when I go to the wash room, I don't have two hours for the light bulbs to get bright - terrible.

[OrphanPip]

They put on the news a discovery one scientist came up with when he did the math - in cold climates like Canada, the amount of heat not coming out of the light bulbs ends up using essentially the exact same energy when you change it to energy coming out of your heaters - the whole idea is kind of shabby.

The concept is that you have "longer lasting bulbs" in the sense that they don't use as much, and generate as much - OK for some people, but at 2:00AM when I go to the wash room, I don't have two hours for the light bulbs to get bright - terrible.

I never have that problem with mine, although they do take a couple seconds after you hit the switch to turn on. With ten-foot ceilings I'm quite happy to just have a way to avoid changing the light bulb on a regular basis.

[BienvenuJDC]

It's all a scam to get people's money. Anybody can see that these new energy efficient light bulbs just aren't bright - that's how they save energy, they suck.

Seriously, the average person pollutes very little, all this going green does is messes up economies - if you think of it, industrial power is put to the creation of new, "energy efficient products", which for a while contribute to GDP growth, but then will just die out, as everyone will have switched. To continue the system then, one needs to innovate to more ridiculous things - point taken, the whole concept of green is like organic food - a bourgeois misconception for the sake of making people feel good.

The real pollution, and the real big players are not every day people - driving a hybrid, or biking to work doesn't change anything. Likewise, ruining the pursuits of your life for the sake of feeling good about yourself does nothing - you pay the annoying guy sitting in front of the library yelling about saving the environment, and that generous donation gets turned into five other morons just like him, continuously begging you, and feeling good about themselves for "saving the world." It doesn't take much to be a hero, but if you think by being annoying, self-loving, or "green", whatever that means, you are helping the world - better to just grow 10 trees or houseplants for the money you save on not "going green", and your carbon dioxide wastage will have gone down far more.

Then again, for every bankrupt or shut down industrial plant here, a hundred coal plants pop up in China - unsurprisingly, all this green shift is doing is making the air over China worse, Western economies deteriorate, and the world? Well, I am not so sure human actions have been that drastic a cause for alarm anyway.


Green right now is just the new terrorism - everybody is pretty bored with that hot button issue, so now people are just moving on to complain about something else, for the sake of making themselves feel better. It has already entered poetic diction as well.

For the real issues, and the real environmental concerns, these green commercial industries aren't doing anything anyway.

JBI...I agree wholeheartedly!!

Not to mention those special light bulbs that you can't just throw away, that doesn't really save that much electricity.


They put on the news a discovery one scientist came up with when he did the math - in cold climates like Canada, the amount of heat not coming out of the light bulbs ends up using essentially the exact same energy when you change it to energy coming out of your heaters - the whole idea is kind of shabby.

The concept is that you have "longer lasting bulbs" in the sense that they don't use as much, and generate as much - OK for some people, but at 2:00AM when I go to the wash room, I don't have two hours for the light bulbs to get bright - terrible.

I see that you've talked about this already. I haven't looked up the documentation about the disposal of these bulbs, but I've heard that you can't throw them in the trash.

[OrphanPip]

I see that you've talked about this already. I haven't looked up the documentation about the disposal of these bulbs, but I've heard that you can't throw them in the trash.

It depends where you live. They contain a very low level of mercury so you technically should drop them off for recycling. Only a few places have legal requirements though.

[BienvenuJDC]

It depends where you live. They contain a very low level of mercury so you technically should drop them off for recycling. Only a few places have legal requirements though.

So just because some places don't have the same environmental standards, then you can still be considered 'Going green'? If that's the case, then the standards in many countries allow you to be 'Green' doing just about anything.

[OrphanPip]

So just because some places don't have the same environmental standards, then you can still be considered 'Going green'? If that's the case, then the standards in many countries allow you to be 'Green' doing just about anything.

I didn't say anything about doing this for environmental reasons. They save you electricity and are convenient because they don't have to be changed often.

[mortalterror]

Why do you hate our planet, JBI?

[Helga]

I recycle cans, paper, bottles and plastic if I can remember... I plan on making a bin or something for food and dog-droppings next summer, mainly because dirt is expensive... I'm a vegetarian and read somewhere that it's eco to be one...

but currently I have a car that spends to much petrol so I'm not eco in that department

[Haunted]

Why do you hate our planet, JBI?

He hates America more.

[JBI]

Why do you hate our planet, JBI?

I don't, I just am not so self-obsessed as to think changing some light bulbs and sifting through grabage is going to save it - when you count it, this green shift is just shifting all the manufacturing to countries running primarily on coal energy - if anything it is polluting more. Think about it - you screw up a Canadian factory, they move to China - they pollute more, your country looks better on the Kyoto Accords or whatever, thinks itself big, but in reality, it is just shooting its own economy in the foot.

Now, when you look at statistics, I believe the only country to have increased its number of trees in the last century is Israel - that's a green effort, which is the most natural way to fight carbon dioxide in the air, but I don't see anybody else encouraging such practice - why is that so?

The truth is, environmental issues at this point are hardly tied to the individual - the changes by such subtle things aren't significant. Big business and whatnot know that, so they promote campaigns of "going green" for the individual as a means of pushing all the press time to the individuals - it is the individual who is the polluting machine, using the energy and letting out green house gases, not the factory, or the logging companies clear cutting, or the coal plants.

The environment is also a political tool when you think about it - first people yelled at China, for instance, for not being "Free" enough and for being stupid communists - now, that seems to have failed, and presses and media, as well as governments have taken a new tactic of blasting them for polluting - the fact that the pollution comes quite often from disposing of Western waste, or manufacturing for a Western market doesn't factor in.

Do you know what happens to all electronics that people here throw out? The vast bulk end up in China, where they are scrapped, and sold as raw goods later - the pollution and garbage end up in China, they do the dirty work, and extract the metals and resources, and the amount of waste in Canada, or the US goes down.


The whole concept of going green is moronic in my opinion - short of putting solar panels on everybody's roofs, these "advancements" don't do anything. They are a distraction to make the "green" people feel smug about themselves, because they drive hybrids, and sift their garbage (not well mind you, as everything is resifted in the recycling plants here by machine anyway, so there isn't a particular point).

[ehs13]

Well. Interesting points everyone has. I need this kind of information for a small powerpoint I am doing for class. And well I was actually hoping for some positive things but seeing everyones opinions has made me see my project differently. Thank you to all who have (or will) express their thoughts. :)

[JBI]

Well. Interesting points everyone has. I need this kind of information for a small powerpoint I am doing for class. And well I was actually hoping for some positive things but seeing everyones opinions has made me see my project differently. Thank you to all who have (or will) express their thoughts. :)

Make sure to footnote me if you use my ideas.

Jonathan Ben-Israel.

[Shalot]

It's all a scam to get people's money. Anybody can see that these new energy efficient light bulbs just aren't bright - that's how they save energy, they suck.

AGREED!

I have to grocery shop at the all-organic grocery store that sells environmently friendly products as well because preservatives irritate my stomach so I have to be real careful about what I eat and someone suggested that I try going organic so I did and it seems to be working. Anyway, I would like to save the earth and the whales and do the greenpeace earthday hippie granola jeruselem cruiser wearing thing, but I draw the line at the Diva Cup, which is sold at this earth-friendly grocery store. GROSS! If I leave a carbon footprint somehow then so be it - the Diva Cup just seems unsanitary.

(will mention of the Diva Cup kill this thread??? Muhahahah)

[papayahed]

but I draw the line at the Diva Cup, which is sold at this earth-friendly grocery store. GROSS! If I leave a carbon footprint somehow then so be it - the Diva Cup just seems unsanitary.


Some of the posters on my hair forum swear by the diva cup (they're not crunchy granola eaters either) but I just can't wrap my head around it.

[kasie]

It saddens me that so many people seem to think that the little they can do by way of recycling/going green is not going to make much difference so they are not going to bother to do even that. Every little helps - and if you don't do it, who is supposed to make a start? And when? I don't suppose my vegetable peelings are making a world of difference but when composted they make a difference to my garden and somewhere a peatbog is better off for my not having gone to the garden centre and bought a sack of peat to 'improve' my soil. And there's less in the landfill for my going to the recycling depot with the paper, cardboard, glass, plastic that can be reused again and again. It takes a bit of effort (the Local Authority collectors don't come down my lane because it is so out of the way) but I feel I should make that effort - it's the least I can do.

[Helga]

I agree with Kasie, and besides here at least things like bottles,plastic, aluminum or glass are recycled and you get money for it when you bring it in so I definitely don't think that is a scam... also I only buy eco products and they aren't as expensive as people think and easy to get.

[Maximilianus]

It saddens me that so many people seem to think that the little they can do by way of recycling/going green is not going to make much difference so they are not going to bother to do even that. Every little helps - and if you don't do it, who is supposed to make a start? And when?
Agreed!

I pick up used batteries that people dispose in streets, gardens and everywhere else where I spot a battery, and then I take them to an electronics shop where they are collected. Where I live, I'm one of the very few who does it, but I keep doing it, and little do I care that the others aren't doing it. I do it on the feeling that it has a purpose and purposes make differences. At least, when I pass away, I won't have payed a blind eye.


I don't suppose my vegetable peelings are making a world of difference but when composted they make a difference to my garden and somewhere a peatbog is better off for my not having gone to the garden centre and bought a sack of peat to 'improve' my soil. And there's less in the landfill for my going to the recycling depot with the paper, cardboard, glass, plastic that can be reused again and again. It takes a bit of effort (the Local Authority collectors don't come down my lane because it is so out of the way) but I feel I should make that effort - it's the least I can do.
Great!

We can't save the whole world, but we can save the small part of the world where we live, like our gardens.

[JBI]

Agreed!

I pick up used batteries that people dispose in streets, gardens and everywhere else where I spot a battery, and then I take them to an electronics shop where they are collected. Where I live, I'm one of the very few who does it, but I keep doing it, and little do I care that the others aren't doing it. I do it on the feeling that it has a purpose and purposes make differences. At least, when I pass away, I won't have payed a blind eye.


Great!

We can't save the whole world, but we can save the small part of the world where we live, like our gardens.

Good, you pick up used batteries - do you know what the Chinese pick up at the docks? Almost all electronic waste, computers, stereos, televisions, etc, and do you know what they do? They pollute in their country and extract the minerals and raws from the waste (mercury and lead included) - what does that mean?

It means, though you think you are disposing of things, really they just end up creating mess somewhere else. Many Europeans like to flaunt their "environmental policy" but it is a form of colonialism - it's just a new form of "positional authority" used to establish a hierarchy between countries - in the process, people like to bring down Canada, rip on Latin America, accuse China, ridicule India, and, at the same time, bring in their machinery and money to those countries and support the system.

So, on the news, you get a country like Canada which is relatively green in comparison with most other countries getting yelled at for oil sands pollution, whereas at the same time, European countries go into Africa and try and grab as much of the resource (including oil) as possible, meanwhile destroying the infrastructure. Saudi Arabia is given free reign because they are deliberately not in the spot-light (they are too essential to world politics at the moment to be, even for human rights) but countries that Western countries are trying to hold back, and press an imperialism over, namely China, as well as India, are given severe beatings, despite the significant history of pollution during European industrialization.


So yes, on one hand this whole environment thing makes sense, but on the other - well, it is exaggerated. Like I said, planting trees is the most logical way to combat this, as they clean up the air, and work to take toxins out of water if planted in there - why then do people find it necessary to buy strange light bulbs, that though do not use as much energy, will eventually make it to China, where their toxins will enter the water supplies, as well as blood streams of those inhabitants?

We may build boats running on electric power, or whatever, but when it comes down to it, the same boats will create environmental disasters when they are sent to India and Bangladesh amongst other places to be scrapped - in the process polluting those countries further, and sickening the people directly exposed.


When you look at things more closely, you realize that the whole thing is merely just a show - environmentally intelligent countries don't even get press time - Israel for instance, a pioneer in said technologies that has solar panels harvesting electricity everywhere, does not get any press time, despite a relatively good record, as, naturally, other politics get in the way. Canada, though we pollute less than almost every other country, gets bad press time because of a sort of cultural imperialism, much of which is rooted in pending debates over arctic sovereignty.

So please, excuse me if I am skeptical, but when it comes down to it, this whole green bit is an exaggeration rooted in bigotry, colonialism, and, ultimately, carelessness - the world is melting perhaps, but it isn't my light bulbs that are doing it - it is the same people who decided Mao was not to be dealt with, and Indians were inferior to white people - the transition is just more abrupt now, so the signs move a lot faster, but had China been open since the beginning of the century, assuming they still retained their own sovereignty, the big scare right now wouldn't occur - this whole thing really is just a push back, where the countries held back by colonial systems are rapidly catching up.

[billl]

Agreed!

I pick up used batteries that people dispose in streets, gardens and everywhere else where I spot a battery, and then I take them to an electronics shop where they are collected.

We can't save the whole world, but we can save the small part of the world where we live, like our gardens.

I do the same thing, it's a good idea. There's some wildlife around here, as well as us people, and some people with gardens even growing food--AND a lot of people who don't know or care about this stuff. Batteries are particularly bad (and I can usually just stick them in my pocket), but I even pick up paper, bottles, cans, etc. lying around if I only have to carry them a short way to a recycling container (or even a trash can). It can make a difference pretty quick in limited areas.



Good, you pick up used batteries - do you know what the Chinese pick up at the docks? Almost all electronic waste, computers, stereos, televisions, etc, and do you know what they do? They pollute in their country and extract the minerals and raws from the waste (mercury and lead included) - what does that mean?

It means, though you think you are disposing of things, really they just end up creating mess somewhere else.

In the U.S., the gov't and media has the 'luxury' to educate people about taking care of the environment, and there are special interests that push certain agendas, and might even get carried away. JBI, I've read stories about China showing greater concern about these things in recent years, as well. Not only was the pollution a source of embarrassment at the Olympics, but at a certain point, the gov't there has to show concern for their people, even if it means making efforts that go against business interests and general economic development. The challenges over there are huge, and they have to pollute, basically--but I don't think that leaving batteries in our own yards (while making no international noise about a wealthy government that in many cases tells its own people only what they want them to hear) is the best approach, no matter how well the opposite tack might mesh with a howl against some real material echoes of colonialism. I know that leaving batteries lying around isn't what you were suggesting, but it is what you responded to. Max and I aren't making a mess in another country. Chinese business men and gov't officials meeting in offices are.
(To be fair, I do think you'd maybe give them an earful once your Chinese is up to snuff.)

When China manages to find the current situation unacceptable, maybe there'll be enough U.N. clout or whatever to prevent the dumping of the stuff in Africa next. Then something that makes sense planet-wide would be a lot more likely. In the meantime, there will still be this arrangement, fueling their furnaces and filling their landfills. Would it be imperialistic to demand that their leaders change this? Is it better to turn the blind eye--to our gardens, or to Chinese ones?



When you look at things more closely, you realize that the whole thing is merely just a show - environmentally intelligent countries don't even get press time - Israel for instance, a pioneer in said technologies that has solar panels harvesting electricity everywhere, does not get any press time, despite a relatively good record, as, naturally, other politics get in the way. Canada, though we pollute less than almost every other country, gets bad press time because of a sort of cultural imperialism, much of which is rooted in pending debates over arctic sovereignty.

So please, excuse me if I am skeptical, but when it comes down to it, this whole green bit is an exaggeration rooted in bigotry, colonialism, and, ultimately, carelessness - the world is melting perhaps, but it isn't my light bulbs that are doing it - it is the same people who decided Mao was not to be dealt with, and Indians were inferior to white people - the transition is just more abrupt now, so the signs move a lot faster, but had China been open since the beginning of the century, assuming they still retained their own sovereignty, the big scare right now wouldn't occur - this whole thing really is just a push back, where the countries held back by colonial systems are rapidly catching up.


Regarding press time, I don't think it is surprising that "positive press" about a particular country isn't happening, simply because the press (if you are talking about the U.S. press at least--I don't know, maybe you mean the Canadian press?) rarely reports on anything positive. It is about a preference for fear, outrage, and ratings in general, more than imperialist lenses, I think.

I agree about these countries rising up from imperialism being the real story. However, the reason the whole "green" thing isn't working planet-wide also has a lot to do with "carelessness" amongst the leadership of these countries in the present. And that will likely change.

Here's an article (with a disturbing reliance on gov't officials and multi-national business for its info, but...) that wasn't exactly headlines, but is nevertheless pretty good press for China.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/world/asia/18iht-letter.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=china%20green&st=cse

[1n50mn14]

For once in my life, I am inclined to agree with JBI.

The skepticism with regards to garbage sorting, recycling, etc, bothers me, however... the only way that will work is on a very large scale. Everybody needs to do it for it to work or make any significant difference. The people who are skeptical are creating a vicious cycle. It's their own skepticism that makes the system not work.

I don't use chemical cleaners. I use Enjo fibres. All of my groceries are locally grown/organic, from a great enviro co-op group. I take the bus, carpool, walk, and bike. Hypocritically, I am also breed/raise beef cattle... carbon emissions, waste of land-space, etc... and I don't even eat meat!

I think a lot of people are turned off of 'going green' in any capacity by some of the extremists, who tend to preach and be somewhat self righteous about their accomplishments. Lots of little things can make a big difference, again, if done by everybody. Not everybody has to give up driving, or chemical cleaners, or buy organic produce, or crappy lightbulbs. A lot of extremists are poorly informed and present a very one-sided argument, neglecting to remember that while climate change and a lot of ecological damage is very real, that the earth also goes through natural warming/cooling trends... and etc.

I have made such a convoluted, scattered argument that I just have to quit now, before it gets any worse.

[JBI]

I do the same thing, it's a good idea. There's some wildlife around here, as well as us people, and some people with gardens even growing food--AND a lot of people who don't know or care about this stuff. Batteries are particularly bad (and I can usually just stick them in my pocket), but I even pick up paper, bottles, cans, etc. lying around if I only have to carry them a short way to a recycling container (or even a trash can). It can make a difference pretty quick in limited areas.



In the U.S., the gov't and media has the 'luxury' to educate people about taking care of the environment, and there are special interests that push certain agendas, and might even get carried away. JBI, I've read stories about China showing greater concern about these things in recent years, as well. Not only was the pollution a source of embarrassment at the Olympics, but at a certain point, the gov't there has to show concern for their people, even if it means making efforts that go against business interests and general economic development. The challenges over there are huge, and they have to pollute, basically--but I don't think that leaving batteries in our own yards (while making no international noise about a wealthy government that in many cases tells its own people only what they want them to hear) is the best approach, no matter how well the opposite tack might mesh with a howl against some real material echoes of colonialism. I know that leaving batteries lying around isn't what you were suggesting, but it is what you responded to. Max and I aren't making a mess in another country. Chinese business men and gov't officials meeting in offices are.
(To be fair, I do think you'd maybe give them an earful once your Chinese is up to snuff.)

When China manages to find the current situation unacceptable, maybe there'll be enough U.N. clout or whatever to prevent the dumping of the stuff in Africa next. Then something that makes sense planet-wide would be a lot more likely. In the meantime, there will still be this arrangement, fueling their furnaces and filling their landfills. Would it be imperialistic to demand that their leaders change this? Is it better to turn the blind eye--to our gardens, or to Chinese ones?



Regarding press time, I don't think it is surprising that "positive press" about a particular country isn't happening, simply because the press (if you are talking about the U.S. press at least--I don't know, maybe you mean the Canadian press?) rarely reports on anything positive. It is about a preference for fear, outrage, and ratings in general, more than imperialist lenses, I think.

I agree about these countries rising up from imperialism being the real story. However, the reason the whole "green" thing isn't working planet-wide also has a lot to do with "carelessness" amongst the leadership of these countries in the present. And that will likely change.

Here's an article (with a disturbing reliance on gov't officials and multi-national business for its info, but...) that wasn't exactly headlines, but is nevertheless pretty good press for China.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/world/asia/18iht-letter.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=china%20green&st=cse

I would point to the language you are using though - 'The Chinese', 'China', 'China needs to find a balance', 'at a certain point, the government there needs to show concern...' - I think you've bought right back into the problem.


When you examine the geography and economics behind it, in my opinion it isn't the Chinese who are polluting, it is the Western businessmen. China is going, or, I would think by this point, has just finished going through an industrialization which is very similar to such trends that occurred in Europe, Korea, and Japan, as well as elsewhere. The difference is though, that you are dealing with a billion and a half people, who are also producing not just for China proper, but for pretty much the rest of the high paying world.

The whole environmental perspective that seems to have gripped your mind is part of a policy on "China" enacted way before out time - it is merely a continuation of the post-MacCartney visit to China under the reign of George the First of England at the end of the 18th century. China went from being everybody's parent country (giving out precious gifts that in the case of some countries, contributes to most of their GDP at the time), to something that needed to be beaten down and destroyed for the sake of the empire, and its ever increasing trade deficits with China, a country that quite simply didn't need them - the empire now has expanded in concept, but the process is the same - since Opium no longer works, and democracy seems a tattered joke to sell, and has failed, environmentalism is the next step.

You look at these E-waste plants and you can't help but realize they are dealing with Western problems. It isn't Chinese economics that are to blame, or the Chinese government, which I wager looks after its citizens far better than the majority of Western countries (though some find this hard to believe, I would make a case of China's government functioning more for the people and more democratically than, lets say Britain's or The US's governments).

The question then is just one of scale. In terms of wastefulness, I would wager Chinese people are far less wasteful than either Canadians or Americans. Likewise, I think in terms of development on thought and on research they are not behind any other country either.

It has been a practice since the 19th century to regard China as a pre-industrial, tattered, poor, ridiculous country - this later manifested into a failed tyrannical Communist state, and now finally into a corrupt polluted waste land, but when you think about it, in terms of progress, before the 19th century they produced over 40% of the world GDP, and, though they suffered terrible decline in the Qing thanks to colonial practices of the French and British, since the 20th century they have grown rapidly - sure, living standards perhaps aren't as high, and income inequality is a bigger problem, but on the whole, China doesn't do too badly.


In terms of green development, the country has a choice - work to do the transition in the future, or let the economy decline - to keep going they need more fuel, and in that case, that means more coal plants. But watch - 10 years from now everything green will be made in China if it isn't already - they already pop out solar panels at an unheard of rate in the West in a small city just outside Tianjin - it's only a matter of time before this whole imperialism fails.

You can't compare countries like that - the Kyoto Accords were put in place as a trade agreement more than an environmental one - all you can do is allow transitions to take place, and then, when they are over mark another transition to other energy.

[billl]

JBI I agree with a lot of your post, I think.

I am not sure why you think I have bought into a particular mindset--I assume you would rather conjure up an enemy you have battled many times in your own mind (an opponent that might actually have said 'China needs to find a balance'). If I should not use the words "China" or "Chinese" when talking about the policies of the Chinese government and business interests in China (many of which have sprung from the dictatorship), then I won't know what to do. Using these terms doesn't imply that monied interests and business practices in the West aren't part of the problem, nor does it imply that there is no history that has brought us where we (incl. they) are. But, in the end, do you think it is "our" imperial duty to save the citizens of that dictatorship from its inability to protect them from exploitation and E-waste sites?

I ask because you have suggested that--well, I'll just say it--China is particularly worth noting for functioning well on the behalf of its people. I think that the government there actually has some problems in that regard--remember, one part of serving the people would presumably be to allow them to know what is going on, and they are notoriously bad on censorship in various forms, modern-day innovators, in fact. Aren't you ready to point a finger at that? Of course, the progress that actually is being made in this regard is mostly due to bravery and perseverance of the Chinese people--but it is strange to let the government completely off the hook, or envision it as a democracy.

I'd like to point out that the mixture of business and government in the U.S. is also capable of blinding the public to certain things via spin, deception, and misdirection, but there are a variety of largely unregulated media outlets, and one can certainly speak against the government, business community, etc. without being silenced or imprisoned.




When you examine the geography and economics behind it, in my opinion it isn't the Chinese who are polluting, it is the Western businessmen. China is going, or, I would think by this point, has just finished going through an industrialization which is very similar to such trends that occurred in Europe, Korea, and Japan, as well as elsewhere. The difference is though, that you are dealing with a billion and a half people, who are also producing not just for China proper, but for pretty much the rest of the high paying world.


I agree with this, but in the next part you seem to suggest imperial guilt that can only be cured by imperial initiative, when in fact the most efficient way would be to let the Chinese government fix the problem. And, perhaps in the background, you seem to want to lecture against the utility of anti-pollution measures by individuals in the West--maybe your goal is to reveal to them some assumed naivete?



In terms of green development, the country has a choice - work to do the transition in the future, or let the economy decline - to keep going they need more fuel, and in that case, that means more coal plants. But watch - 10 years from now everything green will be made in China if it isn't already - they already pop out solar panels at an unheard of rate in the West in a small city just outside Tianjin - it's only a matter of time before this whole imperialism fails.

You can't compare countries like that - the Kyoto Accords were put in place as a trade agreement more than an environmental one - all you can do is allow transitions to take place, and then, when they are over mark another transition to other energy.

I have the same impression (China's green efforts and its manufacturing powers are not invisible in the U.S. media) although I think the 'imperialism' is more just business. I agree especially about how "allowing the transitions to take place" should be the basic way to view things. But--despite the historical narrative that you lay out--in regards to damage and harm that might occur to China and Chinese during the transitions, I don't think we need to view Chinese officials and businessmen as mere stooges for imperialists, not at this point. At least, we shouldn't praise their relative strengths as protectors of their people at the same time.

[Mrig]

Dear All,
We are here to discuss what does each one of us do to go green, irrespective of which country we are and what the different governments are doing? Nature does not understand plotical boundaries. It needs care in a selfless way coz it gives us so selfessly.

Ask yourself What am I doing to keep the planet in place. If we answer this question here (which some people have already answered) this thread will become a more meaningful.

And What I do to go the green way? here is the answer. ... My whole focus is on not using Plastic in whichevr way. I dont use polythene bags. I do not use Plastic bags even if they are more than 50 mm and even if they are recyclable. becoz PLASTIC can be recylced but cannot DEGRADE. also I do not know even one firm where plastic bags are recyled (meaning the world is producing recyclable plastic but not reclyng it) and we all stop using it there will be no demand for it and one day the production will stop.

Wehenevr i go for shopping i prefer a product that is packaged in an eco friendly way rather than in a plastic container. I go to a resturant that does not serve food in thermocal plates, and cold drinks and coffes cups that have plastic covers. coz we wait for the government to come up with a policy for it. Its certainly gonna take longer.

People used to find me carzy when i used to put shopped stuffed in my own cloth bag at the exit counter of a mall. but people have started respecting it. I am really waiting for the day when EVERYONE is so environmentally conscious.

[JBI]

Quit twisting my words to fit a cold-war Occidental mindset that seeks to blame China for the West's faults. The country has its problems, but many of them are imposed on them by Western powers. It is important to note that.

Again you push at "China's environmental problems" and "Chinese dictatorship" and whatnot - mere constructions out of a limited perspective on China - it isn't a Chinese problem - it is the world's problem - it isn't Chinese goods that are polluting - it is as much Western goods coming from China, because we quite simply would rather not have the stuff in our own backyard.


As for your political commentary on China - don't even go there, you are misinformed and again restricted to a simple model - the truth is, China is far more complex, and the issues are not as clear cut as China communist, or China authoritarian, and West free or West Democratic.





Seriously, you should really read more about China - your arguments seem cutouts of cold-war propaganda.

[TheFifthElement]

Politics anyone?

[billl]

I appreciate your passion (and compassion) in your post, but I don't see how you can so confidently call me misinformed or say that I have a limited perspective. I assure you, I am no stranger to Asia, and don't want anyone to think that I don't have any respect for or interest in their perspective. I know several people fluent in Chinese (and English) one of whom has done interpretation in business meetings, and another who lived and worked in the country for an extended period. When I read about and discuss China (or however you would prefer I say it) it is not at all like you seem to imagine.

And I am smart enough to know that the real sorting out will be done by them, and that it isn't at all simple. And that the answer isn't free elections tomorrow. I actually wonder if it is you that is limited to viewing others as simple, cookie-cutter characters.

Anyhow, I see no reason to edit, retract, or fix the logic in anything I have posted so far. I think that you have found injustice in the grand historical sweep, and are especially concerned about the past, and about the present's historical context. However, I also wonder if such passions are blinding you to the rights and responsibilities (and their limitations) among countries and individuals at this point in time. I'm sorry if you thought I twisted your words, but I sincerely did not try to do so.

[billl]

Yes, sorry Fifth. With any luck that will all get deleted.

[Mrig]

guess this wasn't the pupose of this thread.

[magzarelli]

My car is green, i recycling everything and ive change lampbulbs to ledlamps in whole house!"