What is Alcohol?

[NikolaiI]

:lol:


Alcohol is a poison... didn't you know?


No it isn't. You may as well say salt is a poison. Too much of it will kill you. In sufficient doses cyanide, ricin & radioactive plutonium is a poison, although I believe arsenic in small doses is actually a tonic. In fact, according to modern medical research, small doses of alcohol are good for you. So is a *bacon sandwich.


*Oh, I forgot, especially with HP Sauce!

Since to answer would be to really go off-topic on the thread where this came up, I thought I'd make another one for it.

Lit-net?

[*Classic*Charm*]

Aw, and I just responded to the above quotes in the other thread!

I think you're going to have to be more specific here, Nk! Are we talking alcohol in the general sense of liquor we consume in liquid form for recreational purposes? Or are we going to get right down to the Nitty Gritty and talk chemistry?

Really, Alcohol is just a chemical compound. A hydrogen atom and an oxygen atom bound together, which serves a purpose by attaching itself to other molecules and altering how those molecules function and relate to others in the body. It's a crucial part of many important things your body produces, such as the amino acids that make up our bodies' proteins. It's pretty important stuff.

[Virgil]

Well, I don't know what the chemical formula of alcohol is, but frankly as long as it's the red wine variety, who cares????? :p :p :p

http://blog.americanfeast.com/images/red%20wine%20glass.jpg

[jocky]

Well, I don't know what the chemical formula of alcohol is, but frankly as long as it's the red wine variety, who cares????? :p :p :p

http://blog.americanfeast.com/images/red%20wine%20glass.jpg

I care, is it a chianti or a riocha, or a red vinnegar? One must know the answer to these things if you are to be accepted at the dinner table. :)

[The Comedian]

What is Alcohol? In a word: magic.

[jocky]

What is Alcohol? In a word: magic.

In the pantheon of great lines ; ' Words of wisdom Comedian, words of wisdom ' :)

[Virgil]

I care, is it a chianti or a riocha, or a red vinnegar? One must know the answer to these things if you are to be accepted at the dinner table. :)

No, Cabernet Sauvignon. :D

[jocky]

No, Cabernet Sauvignon. :D

I might have bloody known it. Was it the 63 or 75 ? An answer is not required :mad:

[OrphanPip]

A hydrogen atom and an oxygen atom bound together, which serves a purpose by attaching itself to other molecules and altering how those molecules function and relate to others in the body.

That's describing a hydroxyl group :p

An alcohol is a simple hydrocarbon with a hydroxyl group. The alcohol we like to drink is ethanol (CH3CH2OH). Alcohol is certainly a poison, but it's a relatively weak one. Before human beings figured out how to control fermentation ethanol used to be quite rare in nature, usually found in ripe fruit with high amounts of sugar. Chimps and humans seem to have evolved a biological craving for alcohol as a way to identify fruits with high levels of sugar. This causes a slight problem now that we still crave alcohol and know how to make it in large amounts. Unfortunately, the metabolism of alcohol has no regulatory mechanisms in apes, thus the human body has no effective way to handle high levels of alcohol. Our body just immediately sets out to oxidize the alcohol and produce an energy surplus that raises the pH of your blood, damages your liver, and inhibits the transport of carbs to the brain (the last one causes that wonderful intoxication). Obviously, in high enough amounts these effects cause severe and permanent damage.

I suppose the lesson is to drink in moderation.

[jocky]

That's describing a hydroxyl group :p

An alcohol is a simple hydrocarbon with a hydroxyl group. The alcohol we like to drink is ethanol (CH3CH2OH). Alcohol is certainly a poison, but it's a relatively weak one. Before human beings figured out how to control fermentation ethanol used to be quite rare in nature, usually found in ripe fruit with high amounts of sugar. Chimps and humans seem to have evolved a biological craving for alcohol as a way to identify fruits with high levels of sugar. This causes a slight problem now that we still crave alcohol and know how to make it in large amounts. Unfortunately, the metabolism of alcohol has no regulatory mechanisms in apes, thus the human body has no effective way to handle high levels of alcohol. Our body just immediately sets out to oxidize the alcohol and produce an energy surplus that raises the pH of your blood, damages your liver, and inhibits the transport of carbs to the brain (the last one causes that wonderful intoxication). Obviously, in high enough amounts these effects cause severe and permanent damage.

I suppose the lesson is to drink in moderation.

Exactly :)

[*Classic*Charm*]

That's describing a hydroxyl group :p

Jeez Pip, I try to keep things really simple and you show me up by bringing out the hydrocarbons! ;)

[Lokasenna]

I don't care how its made, its bloody wonderful!

After a long day, sitting down to a nice glass of wine, or a gin & tonic, or even the odd glass of mead, is sheer bliss...

And don't forget long summer days spent by the river with friends and a large pitcher of Pimms...

In the words of the old mantra: "Its only alcoholism if you can't afford it!"

[1n50mn14]

Wonderful. That is what alcohol is.

[Mathor]

:lol:





Since to answer would be to really go off-topic on the thread where this came up, I thought I'd make another one for it.

Lit-net?

You know how I feel on this, but if it is not hurting a person it is not bad. Alcohol effects different people differently. Many religions use alcohol in spiritual ways, so I do not think you can say that alcohol is inherently bad, but moreso the excess or the drunkenness that alcohol can cause.

[NikolaiI]

Aw, and I just responded to the above quotes in the other thread!

I think you're going to have to be more specific here, Nk! Are we talking alcohol in the general sense of liquor we consume in liquid form for recreational purposes? Or are we going to get right down to the Nitty Gritty and talk chemistry?

Really, Alcohol is just a chemical compound. A hydrogen atom and an oxygen atom bound together, which serves a purpose by attaching itself to other molecules and altering how those molecules function and relate to others in the body. It's a crucial part of many important things your body produces, such as the amino acids that make up our bodies' proteins. It's pretty important stuff.

Well, to say alcohol is just a chemical compound, I don't really follow your logic. Every other poison is also a chemical as well, and to say alcohol is a chemical doesn't mean it's not a poison.

And don't forget that the liver's job is to deal with poisons, and when you drink alcohol, your liver has to deal with it just like any other poison. Drinking a small amount doesn't kill you or perhaps hurt you too much, but it is engaging the liver to deal with a toxin you've taken into your body.

I'm not saying nobody drink; but I am thinking it's strange that people say things about how they don't like or trust or whatever anyone who doesn't drink - then I have to go back to the fact that it is, in fact, a poison and a hard drug. Let's just leave it as whoever wants to do it can, and whoever doesn't want to, they can do that to. :p - Although, you weren't the person saying like that... so I am only writing about alcohol being a poison in respose to your post.

Just see the words intoxicated and alcohol poisoning. :) And it's not like food poisoning, where bad food poisons you; all alcohol is a toxin. Just in small enough doses you can handle it. But just see what 100% alcohol is - not 100% proof, 50% alcohol, but 100% actual alcohol - and you'll see clearly enough it's not meant for the body. :)

[skib]

One hundred percent alcohol is extremely poisonous due to how it is obtained. Pure alcohol is obtained by vacuum distilling, or by distilling with benzene or Cyclohexane, and from my understanding both are extremely poisonous. Yes, pure alcohol is poisonous but it is not a naturally created chemical. Alcohol is merely a by-product of the fermentation of the sugar within something . . sugary. Duh? Anyway (I guess based off your response to meat fermenting in your body, that sounds awful,) alcohol is a naturally occurring substance. Of course, as concentrated as we make it any more, like anything else it will do more harm than good. But in small amounts, I don't see how it is poisonous. what about the Italians? They drink a small glass of wine with every meal, or maybe it is one a day, and I've read that it is very beneficial. (sorry it took me forty three minutes to edit that . . . my research took a bit longer than I anticipated.)

[Haunted]

Alcohol is a poison... didn't you know?



One hundred percent alcohol is extremely poisonous. I don't remember why, but pure alcohol is only obtainable by vacuum distilling (extremely difficult) or by using some chemical that is extremely poisonous. Off to research a little more thoroughly . . .

Oh well, I'll take my chances. At least I'll die happy. :rage:

[NikolaiI]

One hundred percent alcohol is extremely poisonous due to how it is obtained. Pure alcohol is obtained by vacuum distilling, or by distilling with benzene or Cyclohexane, and from my understanding both are extremely poisonous. Yes, pure alcohol is poisonous but it is not a naturally created chemical. Alcohol is merely a by-product of the fermentation of the sugar within something . . sugary. Duh? Anyway (I guess based off your response to meat fermenting in your body, that sounds awful,) alcohol is a naturally occurring substance. Of course, as concentrated as we make it any more, like anything else it will do more harm than good. But in small amounts, I don't see how it is poisonous. what about the Italians? They drink a small glass of wine with every meal, or maybe it is one a day, and I've read that it is very beneficial. (sorry it took me forty three minutes to edit that . . . my research took a bit longer than I anticipated.)

I see what you mean in that alcohol naturally occurring is not the same thing as vacuum distilled pure alcohol. But alcohol is actually a poison or toxin, that is my point. In small doses or large doses makes no difference as to what alcohol is. If you take it in small doses, then it goes to your liver which has to dissolve it or absorbe it, and if you take it in large doses the same thing, although then it is more difficult for the liver and more damaging to the body.

I guess I am fortunate because even when I was a young child, my dad told me that alcohol was a toxin, it was a poison. With innocence I pondered this and considered it amazing. But anyway, I guess with some of the most powerful coorporations advertising to sell it, promoting it and glorifying it, people don't even think that it is actually a poison.

[billl]

I think people associate the word poison with the crime of murder (I do). While it might be accurate to look in the dictionary and apply the definition of "poison" to alcohol, I think that the staement "Alcohol is poison," can conjure a certain reaction. It is an effective reaction, if one wants to caution against alcohol poisoning and liver damage (ie. it achieves a rhetorical effect). However, I don't think it would be right to conclude that people don't generally know that a large amount of concentrated alcohol can kill in an evening, or that alcohol stresses and can damage the liver, thereby proving deadly over time. I think that this is general knowledge among young adults and older in the U.S. Not that continued efforts to educate aren't needed, and perhaps need to be improved in some areas.

The selling and glorification might be a bit irresponsible, which is natural in the world of business (unfortunately), but in the U.S. there are certain laws and restrictions, as well as steps taken (officially and culturally) to educate people about the harms associated with alcohol (let's not forget addiction).

But I think there is a disconnect between a particular technical dictionary classification, and the more common sense in which most people understand and employ the word "poison." That is why one might be surprised that people don't know that alcohol is a "poison." For me, "poison" immediately places it beside cyanide capsules and other tools of the assassin's trade. It is sort of jarring, maybe like finding a cage of humans in the "Primate House" at the local zoo. I know that poison is also used in reference to mushrooms and cleaning products around the house, but I think your use of the word "toxic" might be less shocking to people.

[Captain Pike]

It is rather a strange thing though that a lot of our food is trying to turn into alcohol if we don't keep an eye on it. And further, if we should ingest some ethyl alcohol, whether by mistake or on purpose, our body will absorb the alcohol before ANYTHING else!

[skib]

Righto, Captain. Why is it a lot of acupuncture/eastern medicines are alcohol based, if they are strictly natural ingredients and homeopathic in nature? As a patient of eastern medicine for about ten years, my understanding of it was working with the body to help itself, and it utilizes alcohol to do so.

[OrphanPip]

Righto, Captain. Why is it a lot of acupuncture/eastern medicines are alcohol based, if they are strictly natural ingredients and homeopathic in nature? As a patient of eastern medicine for about ten years, my understanding of it was working with the body to help itself, and it utilizes alcohol to do so.

My opinion on naturopathy and homeopathy is that they're just a bunch of placebos anyway.

Edit: And they probably use alcohol as a base so that it doesn't spoil.

[skib]

There's nothing in them to spoil. It's all essences.
Placebo or not, I can actually breathe now thanks to it.

[OrphanPip]

I'm not exactly sure what an "essence" is supposed to be, so I guess it might not be susceptible to spoilage.

[skib]

Nope. An essence is basically the 'energy,' so to speak, of the ingredient. The ingredient has been diluted thousands of times, so that the actual ingredient is not present, only its signature. It's kind of hard to explain . . . anyway. I don't think alcohol is added to prevent spoilage.

[Nick Capozzoli]

That's describing a hydroxyl group :p

Our body just immediately sets out to oxidize the alcohol and produce an energy surplus that raises the pH of your blood...

The oxidative metabolism of ethanol produces acetaldehyde and acetate, which result in acidosis (i.e. lowering, rather than raising, the blood pH.
Alcoholics can develop alkalosis (increased blood pH), but that is due to indirect effects of ethanol ingestion (such as vomiting).

Nick

[OrphanPip]

The oxidative metabolism of ethanol produces acetaldehyde and acetate, which result in acidosis (i.e. lowering, rather than raising, the blood pH.
Alcoholics can develop alkalosis (increased blood pH), but that is due to indirect effects of ethanol ingestion (such as vomiting).

Nick

You're right I should have said lowering the pH, teaches me to type things up quickly and not think about what I was writing.

[Suncreampaint]

The cause and solution.

[NikolaiI]

I think people associate the word poison with the crime of murder (I do). While it might be accurate to look in the dictionary and apply the definition of "poison" to alcohol, I think that the staement "Alcohol is poison," can conjure a certain reaction. It is an effective reaction, if one wants to caution against alcohol poisoning and liver damage (ie. it achieves a rhetorical effect). However, I don't think it would be right to conclude that people don't generally know that a large amount of concentrated alcohol can kill in an evening, or that alcohol stresses and can damage the liver, thereby proving deadly over time. I think that this is general knowledge among young adults and older in the U.S. Not that continued efforts to educate aren't needed, and perhaps need to be improved in some areas.

The selling and glorification might be a bit irresponsible, which is natural in the world of business (unfortunately), but in the U.S. there are certain laws and restrictions, as well as steps taken (officially and culturally) to educate people about the harms associated with alcohol (let's not forget addiction).

But I think there is a disconnect between a particular technical dictionary classification, and the more common sense in which most people understand and employ the word "poison." That is why one might be surprised that people don't know that alcohol is a "poison." For me, "poison" immediately places it beside cyanide capsules and other tools of the assassin's trade. It is sort of jarring, maybe like finding a cage of humans in the "Primate House" at the local zoo. I know that poison is also used in reference to mushrooms and cleaning products around the house, but I think your use of the word "toxic" might be less shocking to people.

So I guess all we can say is that it has a certain degree of toxicity. :)

Good point about the balancing effect of the warning of the dangers of it.

So alcohol has a higher degree of toxicity than salt, but a lower degree than cyanide. Still I would indeed consider it a toxin because even a small amount, it's necessary for the liver to detoxify it (I'm afraid I don't have the science background to know in detail what is involved there). And I think, pretty much anyone who has had a shot of Vokda would understand, surely?

Another answer to the question is that it is a drug... which is also obscured by media and common language usage of the phrase "drugs and alcohol;" because actually alcohol is not just a drug but is a hard drug. That maybe a whole other can of worms...

[stlukesguild]

This all reminds me... I've got a couple of bottles of Samuel Smith Imperial Stout and a couple really nice Belgian ales in the 'fridge. I must get too 'em... all in the name of research, mind you.:goof:

[skib]

May I join you? More than one test subject may come in handy!

[Nick Capozzoli]

One aspect of ethanol (EtOH for short) that hasn't been addressed is just how it works to make you feel drunk. We have pretty good explanations for how opiates and other drugs affect the brain, but I haven't heard a compelling explanation of how EtOH (a really simple molecule) causes euphoria. EtOH certainly affects some neural receptors and neurotransmitters, but that can't be the whole story. It may operate via other mechanisms, like nitrous oxide and other gaseous anesthetics (which are not yet that clear).:wave:

[JuniperWoolf]

Chemistry isn't my best subject, but I THINK it works like a benzodiazepine (like ativan for example) which is used to treat anxiety and panic disorders. Both work quickly to increase GABA reception, which makes you feel niiiice and calm. Alcohol is neat.

[skib]

Alcohol is neat.

I'll drink to that.

[Nick Capozzoli]

Chemistry isn't my best subject, but I THINK it works like a benzodiazepine (like ativan for example) which is used to treat anxiety and panic disorders. Both work quickly to increase GABA reception, which makes you feel niiiice and calm. Alcohol is neat.

EtOH does have a GABA-ergic effect, along with affects on other receptors (like opioid receptors), which I acknowledged in my post, but that doesn't explain all of its effects. The main point is that EtOH is a small and simple molecule, so understanding its effects on biologic receptors that generally have a specific fit to 3-dimensionally complex transmitter molecules is difficult.

I think it's more likely a thermodynamic effect, perhaps on the neuronal membranes, like the effect of gaseous anesthetics.