A Farewell to Arms Discussion

[Dark Muse]

I am planning on reading A Farewell To Arms in November, as it seems that my November reading will be lighter than the past couple of months so I have the room and time to fit it in, and I know a while back someone else expressed an interest in reading the book in one of my blog posts, so I thought I would see if I could get a discussion going.

It will be an open discussion so you can join at any time, and as always, I only ask to please post spoiler warnings.

[dfloyd]

I would put it after 1) The sun Also Rises and 2) For Whom the Bell Tolls. After reading the book, be sure to see the 1930s movie starring Gary Cooper. Hemingway thought Cooper was the only actor who properly created his characters on screen (Farewell to Arms and For Whom the Bell Tolls). The movie also stars Adolph Menjou as the Italian doctor. Menjou was a very dapper man who was the best dressed in Hollywod for years. While he generally played men with savoir faire, he could fit into most roles as a character actor. The girl in the movie, Catherine I think (I haven't read it for 40 years), was a beautiful young lady. I say this because most will remember her as an old lady playing character roles: Helen Hayes. A remake was made in the 1950s, but it was pretty bad. Starred Rock Hudson who I can't imagine as a lover of a woman for obvious reasons.

[Dark Muse]

I really liked The Sun Also Rises, one of the reasons I want to read this book. I would love to read more Hemmingway.

[blazeofglory]

I have read this book; In fact I have read two of his books and some stories of this great writer. He is appealing to me and yet the old man and the sea is full of jargons and particularly some words he used about aquatic life are rather exasperating. I like farewell to Arms better

[Onikeflava]

This was my introduction to Hemingway. Of all the things I've read by him, this book is my least favorite. However, it is still worth your time.

[Virgil]

I used to think it was the best of the Hemingway novels, but on a reread (I think it was the third or fourth read I had of it) for our book club here a few years ago it fell flat for me. I do think The Sun Also Rises is his best. You can read my comments and others that participated in the book club read here: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15203.

[ThomH]

I've read A Farewell to Arms, The Sun Also Rises and For Whom the Bell Tolls. I personally think A Farewell to Arms is his weakest of these three novels. I read the novel in about a week, and I just couldn't find anything really appealing.

The Sun Also Rises though is fantastic!

[husker du]

In terms of plot, A Farewell to Arms is the most exciting and best story out of the three big novels. In terms of an overall package, The Sun Also Rises wins out for being super concise and just brutally single-minded.

Because I don't want to spoil the story for you, I will suggest that you read A Farewell to Arms with a skeptical mindset and understand how a non-skeptic reader would take the story. The "true" message being sent by the end is pretty much opposite from what most readers will take away from it.

Hemingway is my favorite author for sure. I only wish there was more of his stuff to read. What a problem to have.

[dfloyd]

I have the complete works of Hemingway, and they amount to twenty volumes. That's a sizable amount. Granted, some are not novels: two being about bull fighting, Death in the Afternoon and The Dangerous Summer; one of his newspaper articles, By Line; and one play, The Fifth Column. The rest are novels or are autobiographical such as A Moveable Feast and Break of Day. Islands in the Stream is sort of a fictional autobiographical work. The Torrents of Spring is a parody, but many think it is just a bad novel. His short stories comprise four volumes. Aside from the three novels posted in this thread, the one generally considered to be his fourth best is To Have and Have Not, which was a real mish mash as a movie.

Hemingway always thought he needed money and when his friend, director Howard Hawks, approached him with doing a movie which was guaranteed to make money, Hemingway agreed to it. Hawks got Bogart and Bacall as stars and proceeded to shoot a movie which had little to do with the book other than the main character's name, Harry Morgan. The film did make money, but Hemingway finally learned you can't trust Hollywood.

[Helga]

I did like this book. it's not my favourite by him but it is the first one I read by him and fell for him in an instant. I have not seen this movie mentioned somewhere above but I would like to.

[LitNetIsGreat]

To me this book has an entirely different feel to it when compared to A Moveable Feast or The Sun Also Rises. Farewell to Arms feels more like a novel in the sense that it feels a little less natural than the other two and I'm not as keen on it really. Having said that it is still worth a read for sure.

[husker du]

Also, it should be noted that the beginning of this novel is auto-biographical. If anyone has ever read Hemingway's "A Very Short Story," A Farewell to Arms picks up where that story left off, and that entire story, aside from the end, is entirely auto-biographical.

[mono]

Good to hear you plan to take on A Farewell to Arms, Dark Muse - a good choice; along with For Whom the Bell Tolls and The Old Man and the Sea, I would call it my favorite Hemingway novel, and one of my favorite novels of all time. Like dfloyd mentioned, most of Ernesto's books fit into categories of a storytelling fiction, historical novels, and autobiographical novels, and A Farewell to Arms definitely goes strongly in the category of fiction, where most of his works lie, but, plotwise and in terms of storytelling attributes, I think compares well to For Whom the Bell Tolls or The Sun Also Rises. What makes this novel so unique, in my opinion? Though I have not read all of his novels (getting there!), A Farewell to Arms enveloped best for me that stylistic, raw, cut-to-the-bone emotion that popularized Hemingway, the abrasive and strong-as-iron man on the outside, as Stoic as they come, but the man with an inside as soft and sensitive as cotton, and the virtuous, adored woman who contained an equal sensitivity to his, but displayed it more, engendering a vulnerability that makes the somewhat-heroine, the practical martyr, that much more able to embrace.
Papa Hemingway wrote this novel during one of his numerous heights, in my opinion, not long after The Sun Also Rises, yet not too terribly long before For Whom the Bell Tolls, which others seem to agree appear as some of his greatest fictional works, and, if you liked the former, Dark Muse, and have read the latter, too, I feel quite sure you will enjoy this one as well.
On a personal account, this novel made me want to do four things: 1. never to fight in a war, even one not as bloody as WWI, 2. to drink, and, more importantly, 3. to fall in love, but somehow simultaneously 4. not to fall in love. :confused:

[Dark Muse]

I just started reading the book, and though I have not yet advanced very far, I have to say, I love Hemmingway's prose. It has been a while for me reading him and there is something so poetic and yet "human" within his verse. I am not quite sure how to put it, but he does make everything really seem to come to life and so vivid that it is easy to become engaged within the story.

I cannot wait to keep reading more.

[Virgil]

I just started reading the book, and though I have not yet advanced very far, I have to say, I love Hemmingway's prose. It has been a while for me reading him and there is something so poetic and yet "human" within his verse. I am not quite sure how to put it, but he does make everything really seem to come to life and so vivid that it is easy to become engaged within the story.

I cannot wait to keep reading more.

I have to say, while I do consider The Sun Also Rises his best novel, his prose in A Farewell To Arms is his absolute best.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I just started reading the book, and though I have not yet advanced very far, I have to say, I love Hemmingway's prose. It has been a while for me reading him and there is something so poetic and yet "human" within his verse. I am not quite sure how to put it, but he does make everything really seem to come to life and so vivid that it is easy to become engaged within the story.

I cannot wait to keep reading more.

It's got to be a relief after Beloved...

[Dark Muse]

LOL

Yes it is much better after Beloved, already

[Dark Muse]

Maybe someone can help me.

I happened upon the scene where the narrator meets the solider with the rupture, and he keeps repeating that he dropped the truss, or threw the truss, and so forth, and because of that he is accused of causing his injury on purpose so they will not let him go to the hospital.

I looked up truss and found that it was an architectural term, and could not find any other deification or explanation for it, so I am a bit confused about the relation between the truss and his injury and what exactly happened.

[Virgil]

I remember that too Dark Muse, and I know what a truss is in engineering/architecture but I was confused as well. It makes no sense in the passage. Must be some slang of the time.

[Dark Muse]

Well that makes me feel better, at least it is not some obvious thing, that I just did not understand and would make me feel stupid once I found out LOL

[Dark Muse]

Hey I found it!!!

I looked up truss in this old dictionary I have, and one of the definitions for it, is a device that was used to hold a hernia in place.

My first instinct was to look in the dictionary, but typing it in google was easiler (shame on me) but that just goes to show you, the internet doesen't know EVERYTHING!

[Virgil]

Hey I found it!!!

I looked up truss in this old dictionary I have, and one of the definitions for it, is a device that was used to hold a hernia in place.

My first instinct was to look in the dictionary, but typing it in google was easiler (shame on me) but that just goes to show you, the internet doesen't know EVERYTHING!

It was probably on page 5678 of the google search. :p Good find D-M. Sounds like some contraption. :lol:

[Dark Muse]

Haha I know really, at least the mystery is solved, and the passage now makes sense

[Dark Muse]

I loved the dialogue between the drives all about war. It is interesting reading the book at this particular time as well for obvious reasons a lot of relevance can be found just now with certain current events (but I don't want to talk about the politics and opinions of that) just saying reading the book now I think my perspective on it is different if I had read it prior.

But for me a lot of truth did ring through these words.


"It doesn't finish. There is no finish to a war"

"War is not won by victory. What if we take San Gabriele? What if we take the Carso and Monfalcone and Triese? Where are than? Did you see all the far mountains to-day? Do you think we could take all them too? Only if the Austrians stop fighting. One side must stop fighting. Why don't we stop fighting? If they come down into Italy they will get tired and go away. They have their own country. But no, instead there is a war."

"We think. We read. We are not peasants. We are mechanics. But even the peasants know better than to believe in a way. Everybody hates this war."

"There is a class that controls a country that is stupid and does not realize anything and never can. That is why we have this war."

"Also they make money out of it."

"Most of them don't.... They are too stupid. They do it for nothing. For stupidity."

Also, I thought that the bombing scene was really intense, the chaos of the moment was so well and vivid portrayed within the prose of the story. The scene when he is lying in the ambulance, and someone else's blood is slowly dripping down upon him, and he can feel it wet and sticky through his shirt, made me shudder.

[mono]

Good to hear that you have enjoyed A Farewell to Arms thus far, Dark Muse - it remains one of my favorites by Ernesto.

Also, I thought that the bombing scene was really intense, the chaos of the moment was so well and vivid portrayed within the prose of the story. The scene when he is lying in the ambulance, and someone else's blood is slowly dripping down upon him, and he can feel it wet and sticky through his shirt, made me shudder.
I recall this description very acutely, and somewhat surprisingly considering that the rest of my memory rests more upon what occurs later in the novel. Given such a vivid detail, somehow the fact would not shock me if Hemingway encountered many experiences like this, as a paramedic in WWI, writing from first-hand knowledge, so to speak. Odd, even with his typically very brief, narrow, to-the-point descriptions, he can still make one shudder in the same way as a more verbose author bringing light to a similar subject, like Poe, Lovecraft, or Dostoevsky.

[Dark Muse]

I really enjoy the humor that Hemingway included within the story, for me it is part of what makes the story all that more "human" or real as it were, because I am one who can appreciate the comic aspects that can emerge out of tragedy and hardships. It gets me in trouble at times, because something will happen and everyone else will be upset or angry about it, and I will try to look somber when inside I really just want to laugh because I an can see the irony of fate.

I thought that whole scene when he was taken to the American hospital was absolutely hysterical. Because that is how real life is, it is sloppy and chaotic at times, so I really enjoy that sort of realism that Hemingway brings into the story, and his own seeming apperception of the fact that it can be dang funny at times when you least expect it.

[Onikeflava]

If only I could read this book for the first time again.

[Dark Muse]

I have to say I am close to half-way done with the book, and I still do not know quite what to make of Catherine, I do not truly flat out dislike her, but my god, there are times when she is just ridiculously annoying and she really can grate on my nerves.

For one thing, she seems to whine a lot, it is kind of funny, but the way she talks in the book I can hear her in my head having this really obnoxious whinny sounding voice. I am also tired of the fact that every time she asks a question, she than has to repeat it, 50 times in a row.

The other thing, of which I am sure was done quite intentionally by Hemingway, as a way of demonstrating the alienation and isolation of human contact during this period of the war, and the way in which these sorts of relationships are a direct result of the war, and the struggle for people to try and connect again and find some sort of meaning in their lives, they are just so completely shallow.

They have these "conversations" in which all they really do is make random irrelevant remarks to each other back and forth, and they never actually respond to or acknowledge anything the other person says.

[Old Crow]

For me, the ending is what makes this book. Had it ended any differently than it did, I would have been extremely dissapointed. I think Hemingways best moments come when his prose is at its darkest, and during the final chapter of this book Hemingways disgust and bitterness is palpable. Absolutely fantastic book.

[mono]

I have to say I am close to half-way done with the book, and I still do not know quite what to make of Catherine, I do not truly flat out dislike her, but my god, there are times when she is just ridiculously annoying and she really can grate on my nerves.

For one thing, she seems to whine a lot, it is kind of funny, but the way she talks in the book I can hear her in my head having this really obnoxious whinny sounding voice. I am also tired of the fact that every time she asks a question, she than has to repeat it, 50 times in a row.

The other thing, of which I am sure was done quite intentionally by Hemingway, as a way of demonstrating the alienation and isolation of human contact during this period of the war, and the way in which these sorts of relationships are a direct result of the war, and the struggle for people to try and connect again and find some sort of meaning in their lives, they are just so completely shallow.

They have these "conversations" in which all they really do is make random irrelevant remarks to each other back and forth, and they never actually respond to or acknowledge anything the other person says.
Interesting interpretation of Catherine! :lol:
Your explanation of Hemingway's emphasis upon social isolation, lack of empathy, and occasional coldness really hit the nail on the head. While reading A Farewell to Arms, I often had many visuals, too, of Henry and Catherine in their dialogues, and thought them the type who would speak almost meditatively in trances, devoid of eye contact, and frequently with a perfunctory nature of consolation. Cold? Somewhat, but it gets better, especially at that halfway point of the novel you have reached. As in For Whom the Bell Tolls, also a novel detailing war and battles, many characters in this novel, I believe, have exhausted many of their emotional reservoirs by the trauma of war, medicine, suffering, death, etc., turning them partially into the antisocial, solitary, flat personalities one sees in post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) - something worth considering, but, besides Hemingway's war novels, this quality of characters seems relatively universal.
I understand your near-annoyance with Catherine, and partially share your interpretation of her, but I hoped Ernesto would not quite have desired to portray one of the main characters of his novel as somewhat of a whiny ditz, though she can seem so at times. When I think of Catherine, I think of adjectives like vulnerable, sensitive, and susceptible, but simultaneous to yielding, determined, nurturing, and somewhat martyrish in a Florence Nightingale-like style, for the sake of those suffering.

[Dark Muse]

I do think that in the case of Catherine the aspects of her that tend to get on my nerves are intended to highlight her vulnerability and her insecurity which was probably a product of the time and everything that was going on. Their relationship was born out of the chaos of war, if it had not been for the war they never would have met, and perhaps do not truly have much in common. It is because of the background of the war that draws them to each other. This in itself would make them unsettled and uncertain of themselves and each other.

I think they are in their own way just looking for something in all the madness and death around them, some escape, some affection, human connection, and so they have turned to each other. They do not truly love each other, I do not think for who they are as individual people, but more for what they represent to each other.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I read about a fifth of it, and had to stop. Almost put me in a coma. I'm not trying to be malicious with that statement, but it was just boring. I found the prose weak and uninteresting, and the dialogue just seemed absurd. I will probably go back and give it another try, and may even give his short stories a read (I find when an author's novels bore me, the short stories are better).

Out of the great early 20th century writers I've read, and if A Farewell to Arms is an indication of the rest of his writing, I really don't see how he is grouped among greats like Fitzgerald and Faullkner.

[Dark Muse]

Out of the great early 20th century writers I've read, and if A Farewell to Arms is an indication of the rest of his writing, I really don't see how he is grouped among greats like Fitzgerald and Faullkner.

Well I guess that just goes to show you. People have very different tastes. I myself found A Light in August to be quite boring, and rather difficult to get through. I was not in the least bit engaged in the story, and did not care for the prose all that much.

But I myself am very much enjoying A Farewell to Arms, and find some of the prose to be quite striking, and I love the way he so vividly captures the 20th century angst. I find they he really brings his stories to life and gives them a very human feel.

[Patrick_Bateman]

I think it's my favourite Hemingway. Just inching ahead of For Whom the Bell Tolls.
It has brief, sporadic periods of monotony but that is forgiven
The ending just killed me

[JuniperWoolf]

I tried to read it when I was a young teen, but I think that I was too stupid at the time. I got bored within five minutes and tossed it aside. I've read more Hemmingway since then and liked it, so I'll probably give it another shot soon.

[Brad Coelho]

With regards to Catherine, the portrayals of women weren't Hemingway's strong suit. Her neurosis, coupled her insecure redundancies made for a not so compelling leading lady. The story wins out in spite of Catherine's eroding fragility because of the uncompromising motif of war, spliced w/ just enough levity from Rinaldi's 'baby love,' the Priest & of course, copious amounts of booze. Count Greffi, the dignified stalwart, came off as more 3 dimensional than Barkley in a few moments at the pool table than she did over the course of the novel.

I guess Hemingway's genius is that in spite of his pompous arrogance & vacuous characterizations of women, the pulse of the story & coldness of the images win you over. There are no winners in war, and the concept of war extracts the soul from men, leaving places w/ road names and numbers, not heros. War produces nothing and destroys all....even Catherine's attempt to 'create' w/ Henry ends up destroying them...he didn't allow the book to end any other way.

[Virgil]

Very well said, Brad. I pretty much agree with everything you say there. I would add that the prose of AFTA is Hemingway at his best. But the other negative to the novel I would add is the ending bathos. It comes off as a simple, "life sucks" conclusion. Contrast that with the ending in The Sun Also Rises, and I think then one can see which is the deeper novel.