Who do you think was the best black writer?

[Indian Boy]

I just finished reading 'Fences', written by August Wilson who was black. I've never paid much attention to black authors before but after reading 'Fences' I think that black writers might be just as good as other writers. 'Fences was an amazing story and I highly recommend reading it to anybody who hasn't yet done so.

Having said that, who do you guys feel was the best black writer? I'm open to recommendations and would greatly appreciate any that are given. Thanks.

[dfloyd]

but there are many who are very good. For example, I think everyone should read 'Up from Slavery', the autobiogrphy of George Washington Carver. The first major African writer was French. His name was Renee ******* and he won the French Grande Prix of literature in the early 30s. Sorry I can't remember his name, but the title of his book was Batouala. Ignoring who was best, everyone just post some names and titles so other readers can be aware of this important group of people.

I almost forgot one of the most well known: Alexandre Dumas. He was a mulatto because one parent was white and the other black. It's been a long time since I read his autobiograph, but I think his father was white and his mother black. No one can dispute his place in leterature.

[African_Love]

Octavia Butler! I have the deepest affection for Octavia Butler. I also like Chinua Achebe, Chimamnda Ngozi Adichie, Toni Morrison, Richard Wright. I look forward to reading Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison.

[Modest Proposal]

I believe Dumas was a quarter, one of his parents being mulatto. James Baldwin is my favorite African American author, having some of the highest aesthetic quality of American authors of any time and race. I thoroughly enjoyed James Wheldon Johnson's "Diary of an Ex-Colored Man", Morrison's "Beloved" and Chinua Achebe's "Things Fall Apart. Honestly I don't make it a point to read something based on the author's race.

[OrphanPip]

I've never paid much attention to black authors before but after reading 'Fences' I think that black writers might be just as good as other writers.

How very enlightened...

[Basil]

...after reading 'Fences' I think that black writers might be just as good as other writers.Wow, really? Quick question: any particular reason why you might have thought otherwise? I mean, why wouldn't black authors be "just as good as other writers"?


For example, I think everyone should read 'Up from Slavery', the autobiogrphy of George Washington Carver.
"Up From Slavery" is the autobiography of Booker T. Washington, not George Washington Carver.

[Veva]

For me Tonni Morrison's Beloved is the symbol of rich afroamerican culture.;)

[The Comedian]

I haven't read this area of literature widely enough to make any claims as to the "best" but I greatly enjoyed Richard Wright's Black Boy and Native Son. Zora Hurston's Their Eyes Were Watching God is another book that I liked.

[Indian Boy]

I think some of you are misinterpreting what I said. I'm not saying black authors aren't as good as other writers, I'm just saying that it surprised me that black authors are [U]as good[U] as other writers. That's all. In other words I thought black authors would have tailored their writing to black readers and therefore anyone other than blacks wouldn't enjoy it as much, or at least would find it difficult to follow. That's what I meant. :nod:

[Barbarous]

Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison is probably the quintessential American novel and certainly the best African-American writer I have read.

[Virgil]

I assume you mean American black writer. I would say Ralph Elison's Invisible Man is usually regarded as the top achievement of the novels of black writers. I think it's a great novel.

[DanielBenoit]

Anyone from the Harlem Reinissance. Langston Hughes, Claude McKay and Robert Hayden are great.

[Jozanny]

I just finished reading 'Fences', written by August Wilson who was black. I've never paid much attention to black authors before but after reading 'Fences' I think that black writers might be just as good as other writers.

Indian Boy, your last sentence may be slightly loaded, as there is no reason why writers of one ethnic identity may not be as good as another. Chew on that a little :).

Now, to answer your question, my pick as the best,
American:
Ralph Ellison, Invisible Man -- this is, in fact, one of the best 100 novels in the entire canon, and Obama honors this in his non-fiction, which attributes Ellison.

African:
Chinua Achebe-- I may catch fire on picking him, but he is the most famous African author out of the continent.

[Virgil]

Now, to answer your question, my pick as the best,
American:
Ralph Ellison, Invisible Man -- this is, in fact, one of the best 100 novels in the entire canon, and Obama honors this in his non-fiction, which attributes Ellison.

Obama won the nobel peace prize for doing nothing, and now he's a literary critic too? ;) I guess those honary degrees are awarded for nothnig too and they go to people's heads. :D

[stlukesguild]

Invisible Man -- this is, in fact, one of the best 100 novels in the entire canon

Which "canon" would that be, JoZ?:D

My pick? Joaquim Maria Machado de Assis.

[JBI]

Isn't the nature of the topic a little problematic? I don't see people asking, for instance, "who is the best white writer." It's as if Black is a language, which it clearly isn't, as some of the posts may testify to. I don't think there is a quintessential blackness in stuff written by people who have dark skin - in truth, I would think, for instance, that certain artists would be better defined within other movements, like Robert Haydon within American poetry, than paired with Walcott in Post-Colonial West-Indian literature - but even those categories don't seem to do any justice to the ability of the author to be seen as an author. Inherently, the very question is absurd - it's like asking what do you think the best male author is, except it sort of tries to establish a quintessential blackness, instead of a quintessential maleness, which seems assumed by our culture. In truth, it seems derogatory in its grouping.

[Virgil]

Isn't the nature of the topic a little problematic? I don't see people asking, for instance, "who is the best white writer." It's as if Black is a language, which it clearly isn't, as some of the posts may testify to. I don't think there is a quintessential blackness in stuff written by people who have dark skin - in truth, I would think, for instance, that certain artists would be better defined within other movements, like Robert Haydon within American poetry, than paired with Walcott in Post-Colonial West-Indian literature - but even those categories don't seem to do any justice to the ability of the author to be seen as an author. Inherently, the very question is absurd - it's like asking what do you think the best male author is, except it sort of tries to establish a quintessential blackness, instead of a quintessential maleness, which seems assumed by our culture. In truth, it seems derogatory in its grouping.

I've argued similar, but i've modified my thinking there. Literature is an expression of a culture, and one can identify African-American culture, or perhaps sub-culture is more accurate, as a ligitamate cultural identity. So assessing the novels of a particular culture/sub-culture I think is a legitamate endeavor.

Now where I can't see the distinction is in women's writers. There is no cultural identity as a woman or a man.

[JBI]

I've argued similar, but i've modified my thinking there. Literature is an expression of a culture, and one can identify African-American culture, or perhaps sub-culture is more accurate, as a ligitamate cultural identity. So assessing the novels of a particular culture/sub-culture I think is a legitamate endeavor.

Now where I can't see the distinction is in women's writers. There is no cultural identity as a woman or a man.

Oh no doubt - I don't wish to debase the identity or the strength of the writing done by those associated with African-American literature, but "Black" literature? What is quintessentially "black" about writing, or language? Does that mean only black people should write about black people, or that there is a such thing even as a "Black people"? Lets be honest, even for a demographic of Jewish authors, which would be far fewer than "Black" authors I still wouldn't essentialize - there is so much variation, and so many different languages - different styles and different time periods. I am even suspicious of the whole idea of "African-American literature" as being a sub-genre - to me, the only thing that really makes it a sub genre is that it was dismissed in the first place based on the racialization of its authors, and that its authors had a long history of being othered in the first place. Robert Hayden, to me for instance, seems a lot more like William Butler Yeats than he does Thylias Moss. Such categories are really just so limited, and quite absurd.

[DanielBenoit]

Oh no doubt - I don't wish to debase the identity or the strength of the writing done by those associated with African-American literature, but "Black" literature? What is quintessentially "black" about writing, or language? Does that mean only black people should write about black people, or that there is a such thing even as a "Black people"? Lets be honest, even for a demographic of Jewish authors, which would be far fewer than "Black" authors I still wouldn't essentialize - there is so much variation, and so many different languages - different styles and different time periods. I am even suspicious of the whole idea of "African-American literature" as being a sub-genre - to me, the only thing that really makes it a sub genre is that it was dismissed in the first place based on the racialization of its authors, and that its authors had a long history of being othered in the first place. Robert Hayden, to me for instance, seems a lot more like William Butler Yeats than he does Thylias Moss. Such categories are really just so limited, and quite absurd.

Yes I agree with you concerning the injustice in the racialization of literature. But concerning African-American literature (which you, as you said, don't dismiss) and culture; the reason why it is so emphasized among those apart of it, is because African-American culture itself is rooted in its dark history of segragation and division. This heritage and influence cannot help but be felt by most African-Americans today; history, whatever it is, becomes rooted in culture, and thus a uniqueness is created among American literature. It's not about race, but rather about the unavoidable history of a race, deeply effected by its past. That's why there's no such thing as Chineese-American or French-American literature.

[Jozanny]

Obama won the nobel peace prize for doing nothing, and now he's a literary critic too? ;) I guess those honary degrees are awarded for nothnig too and they go to people's heads. :D

Not quite what I meant Virgil--his first book, the daddy one, is very conscious of Ellison's legacy about black identity. I cannot speak for the idiots on the Nobel committee who put so much pressure on a dynamic and talented leader.

I respect Obama's ability with language, truly. He is probably pretty near to being a genius if there ever was one to occupy the position of power that he does.

luke--the western canon

JBI-- your point is valid, but despite Boy's questionable projectionist assumptions about black literature, there is indeed such a thing. It exists, and linguists do study the black vernacular as a vernacular of standard English.

I am not saying you are wrong to raise the issue, far from it, but black authors themselves couch their critical identity in terms of being black authors.

[stlukesguild]

Oh, JBI! Of course you are right that the question is somewhat absurd to a great extent... but we hear similar questions all of the time: "Who is the greatest woman writer?" "Who are the greatest non-Western writers", "Who is the greatest writer in the English language?" etc... etc... Your little tirade come across as well-learned university PC. Without a doubt it is absurd to seek out the great black writer because "black" is such a broad term crossing national boundaries, literary traditions, historical eras, etc... And then we have the problem that for all we know the author of Gilgamesh or Job or even the Iliad might have been black. In an ideal world we would read literature or come to experience and appreciate art without the least concern for the artist's gender, nationality, era, or even biography... but we don't live in a perfect world and as human beings we continue to be fascinated with the biographies of our artists... beside which... I agree with Virgil that literature is an expression (in part) of culture and knowing about and discussing the author's culture is often a key part to the appreciation of any work of literature. Asking who is the greatest Chinese or female or black writer may seem absurd... and perhaps even problematic... suggesting that we continue to see such sub-groups as marginalized within the larger realm of writers (there are "writers"... and there are "black writers" or "women writers"??). Or are we simply acknowledging that this marginalization exists? At least it shows an effort on the parts of some to perhaps explore literature outside of the Anglo-American world (or the world of their own national heritage). Now I'm off to start a thread on "Who is the greatest Hungarian poet?":rolleyes:

[Night_Lamp]

After reading many of his novels, I was surprised that Dumas was of a partial negro back-round: because it shows the advancement of French society that someone of even a mixed heritage could be so respected in the 19th C.

[DanielBenoit]

Oh, JBI! Of course you are right that the question is somewhat absurd to a great extent... but we hear similar questions all of the time: "Who is the greatest woman writer?" "Who are the greatest non-Western writers", "Who is the greatest writer in the English language?" etc... etc... Your little tirade come across as well-learned university PC. Without a doubt it is absurd to seek out the great black writer because "black" is such a broad term crossing national boundaries, literary traditions, historical eras, etc... And then we have the problem that for all we know the author of Gilgamesh or Job or even the Iliad might have been black. In an ideal world we would read literature or come to experience and appreciate art without the least concern for the artist's gender, nationality, era, or even biography... but we don't live in a perfect world. Asking who is the greatest Chinese or female or black writer may seem absurd... and perhaps even problematic... but at least it shows an effort on the parts of some to perhaps explore literature outside of the Anglo-American world (or the world of their own national heritage). Now I'm off to start a thread on "Who is the greatest Hungarian poet?":rolleyes:

Could not have said it better!

It is ridiculously absurd to dismiss works of literature based on their authors ethnic background. But there is no need to dismiss African-American literature as a genre and movement (for reasons I said before), which I think no one has :)

And even though I agree with you, I do think that it is valid to ask for writers of different cultures, due to the fact that culture has influenced the literature in which it exists, and thus becomes defined by its geographic location. We can ignore the existence of Chinese literature, but it still posesses its own unique attributes and charactaristics.

[stlukesguild]

After reading many of his novels, I was surprised that Dumas was of a partial negro back-round: because it shows the advancement of French society that someone of even a mixed heritage could be so respected in the 19th C.

There was also Pushkin. Hell... there is even an intimation that Shakespeare's "dark lady" was black and we know Baudelaire's muse was. The reality is that there was little of the sort of racism in much of Europe as developed in the United States for the simple reason that there was never the history of the influx of a huge population of slaves from a foreign culture. This is not to absolve the racism... simply to put it in context. I doubt that the French or the Russians or any other nation is more or less advanced in terms of racism or xenophobia. One need only look at the response of many among the French or Germans or British to the influx of Middle-eastern, Eastern European, Asian, African immigrants... and then imagine the response if the numbers of these immigrants neared that of the number of African slaves brought to the US. The reality is that the Irish, the Chinese, the Jews, the Italians, and nearly any other group that entered into the US in large numbers found an equally hostile reception early on. I suspect that the continued racism in the US has much to do with the perceptions propagated by the media and by the continued poverty of the African-American population (and its accompaniment of crime, drugs, and violence).

[JBI]

Yes I agree with you concerning the injustice in the racialization of literature. But concerning African-American literature (which you, as you said, don't dismiss) and culture; the reason why it is so emphasized among those apart of it, is because African-American culture itself is rooted in its dark history of segragation and division. This heritage and influence cannot help but be felt by most African-Americans today; history, whatever it is, becomes rooted in culture, and thus a uniqueness is created among American literature. It's not about race, but rather about the unavoidable history of a race, deeply effected by its past. That's why there's no such thing as Chineese-American or French-American literature.

Is there no such thing as Chinese-American literature? I would argue - there's even a such thing as Chinese-Canadian writing, though, truth be told, it is generally written by 3rd generation descendants of Cantonese settlers with less ties to China than I have.


Not quite what I meant Virgil--his first book, the daddy one, is very conscious of Ellison's legacy about black identity. I cannot speak for the idiots on the Nobel committee who put so much pressure on a dynamic and talented leader.

I respect Obama's ability with language, truly. He is probably pretty near to being a genius if there ever was one to occupy the position of power that he does.

luke--the western canon

JBI-- your point is valid, but despite Boy's questionable projectionist assumptions about black literature, there is indeed such a thing. It exists, and linguists do study the black vernacular as a vernacular of standard English.

I am not saying you are wrong to raise the issue, far from it, but black authors themselves couch their critical identity in terms of being black authors.

The Black Vernacular? Would that be the vernacular of the West Indies, or of Nigeria? Where is the "black vernacular", and is it spoken by, and written in by everyone who is black, much less African-American.

[Haunted]

I've never paid much attention to black authors before but after reading 'Fences' I think that black writers might be just as good as other writers.

What does "good" mean to you in regards to writers? It never occurred to me that one ethnic (or gender) group of writers is better than another, they may be different, especially if the subject matter is culture- or gender-specific.

So where does this prejudgement of black writers being not as good as other writers come from? It sounds a bit elitist. You just read your first book by a black author, so it can't be your own thoughts. Then again, one doesn't have to really read a book to realize that such a viewpoint is terribly flawed.

[Adorer]

I actually ,as an arab girl, do not read English books ,novels or stories that much .
u know, you made me feel like reading 'Fences' ,I'll be trying to get it .

Let me add something ,a writer is a writer ,, regardless if he is white or black ,, and the black one might be more creative and talented than the white ..

Our world is going up and we have to leave this separation between balck and white !!

[Adorer]

Thanks to JBI

It's as if Black is a language, which it clearly isn't, as some of the posts may testify to. I don't think there is a quintessential blackness in stuff written by people who have dark skin

this is what I wanted to say

[Modest Proposal]

This whole convorsation seems a little silly at this point in society. Being 'black' has obviously more than one meaning. I say meaning because it is only meaning that we give to the word rather than some essential qualities the word signifies. This convorsation could go many ways: what does it mean to be a 'black writer', does asking the question presuppose some essentialism, etc.

I took the question as a harmless one and answered it thus. What author who is black (presumably of some measure of African descent) do I find to be the best.

Honestly, the controversy is what you bring to the question.

I think Shakespeare is the best white writer. I think Hawthorne is the best author from MA. I think Ray Bradbury is the best cat-loving science fiction writer who claims to remember his own birth. I think Tim O'Brien is the best writer to come out of the Vietnam conflict. I think Oscar Wilde is the best gay author. I think Joyce Carol Oates is the best female writer living.

I don't think there is anything 'wrong' with these questions but I think the convorsation could easily traverse into dangerous territory should people drag it there.

That said, the TS's phrasing is a little disturbing.

[Jozanny]

JBI, look, I am sorry, but difference does, in fact, matter. You end up having otherwise sensible people chasing their tails when it comes to posting with you.

I am a disabled writer, and am entitled to hard terms like Crip World, one of our publications in your evil American Empire, or Ragged Edge. We use terms like spaz, gimp, quad, para, terms that you cannot have, that we own, because they are used to hurt us by fine discerning minds like yours. Black writers claim the same legacy and the same indignation.

Is it monolithic? Of course not. Does it mean we are all beholden to the same ideological dynamic? No. I in fact have my own issues with disability culture, and with ethnic identity group dynamics, but that doesn't mean I deny them and am not willing to respect their history, inclusive of the great flowering of the Harlem Renaissance which paved the way for the mantle of Ellison's legacy.

Why don't you review your arguments in the universal literature thread and then explain why you aren't contradicting yourself, and yes, in the US, in the inner city, Black English has its own coda, and even I have trouble translating it, at times. Linguists study it with the same respect and critical examination they give to standard English, or Farsi, for that matter.

I'm done. If you want to keep arguing this try emailing Sonia Sanchez at Temple U if she hasn't retired, as she is a black poet with whom I am actually acquainted, and she can tap dance around your dismissal of what she represents for herself.

[African_Love]

I've argued similar, but i've modified my thinking there. Literature is an expression of a culture, and one can identify African-American culture, or perhaps sub-culture is more accurate, as a ligitamate cultural identity. So assessing the novels of a particular culture/sub-culture I think is a legitamate endeavor.

Now where I can't see the distinction is in women's writers. There is no cultural identity as a woman or a man.

Stories go beyond culture, I think. It might be easier for a female author to write practically about a female protagonist than it would for a male author (the same goes for a Black author writing about Black protagonists) but reading Gone With the Wind or Things Fall Apart, if you didn't know who the authors were, you couldn't know for sure that they weren't written by a man or non-African respectively. I don't see anything wrong with asking 'who is the best Black author' (or who is the best author from any culture/social group) but, if you want to find out which novels best represent a cultural experience, I think it would be more relevant to ask 'which is the best Black novel of all time'. A 'Black' novel can be written by a White person. Uncle Tom's Cabin probably has a greater influence on Black literature than anything written by Eric Jerome Dickey (I haven't read Uncle Tom's Cabin or anything by Eric J. Dickey)

[JBI]

JBI, look, I am sorry, but difference does, in fact, matter. You end up having otherwise sensible people chasing their tails when it comes to posting with you.

I am a disabled writer, and am entitled to hard terms like Crip World, one of our publications in your evil American Empire, or Ragged Edge. We use terms like spaz, gimp, quad, para, terms that you cannot have, that we own, because they are used to hurt us by fine discerning minds like yours. Black writers claim the same legacy and the same indignation.

Is it monolithic? Of course not. Does it mean we are all beholden to the same ideological dynamic? No. I in fact have my own issues with disability culture, and with ethnic identity group dynamics, but that doesn't mean I deny them and am not willing to respect their history, inclusive of the great flowering of the Harlem Renaissance which paved the way for the mantle of Ellison's legacy.

Why don't you review your arguments in the universal literature thread and then explain why you aren't contradicting yourself, and yes, in the US, in the inner city, Black English has its own coda, and even I have trouble translating it, at times. Linguists study it with the same respect and critical examination they give to standard English, or Farsi, for that matter.

I'm done. If you want to keep arguing this try emailing Sonia Sanchez at Temple U if she hasn't retired, as she is a black poet with whom I am actually acquainted, and she can tap dance around your dismissal of what she represents for herself.

Pardon me, I misjudged you - it's not that you think all black writers the same, or there is a quintessential "blackness" - you just only think in terms of American literature, and I would say, that if one would want to suggest this, they could make an argument (though I don't believe it of course) that you only see African-American literature as "Black literature", and African American Vernacular English as "Black English" - I won't make the argument, for Brutus is an honorable man... except one could based on your posts suggest that.

But the whole notion is silly - is George Elliott Clarke, a self-described Africadian author writing in the same in the same language as Derek Walcott - a West-Indian poet with a different focus and experience, not to mention set of tropes and images. Hell, within Canada there are further divides - are we to suggest that Austin Clarke is a Black author, a Carribean Author, a Canadian author, or what? He writes in full sentences, and has an idiom all his own.

In a sense, I see where you are coming from - but that isn't a "Blackness" - it is a linguistic and cultural association, which has racial implications, but in essence is not extendable to all "Black people", much less even all black people within one country.


I remember reading somewhere of a notion that when black skinned Jamaicans come to Canada, they do not realize really that they are Black until people tell them they are - in Jamaica, so I am told, intermarriage and race have, for the most part, been gotten over far faster than in the US or Canada - what does that mean? Are they black, or is black a title put on them? what does it mean to be black? How is that used, in the case of your point, to essentialize the writing, and thereby limit it?


Seriously, this is far more an American problem than Canadian anyway - Canadians for the most part don't see a "Black author" I would argue, in terms of the Canadian literary scene, but a "Canadian author", or a "Post-Modern" author. That's why George Elliott Clarke's self-definition as Africadian makes sense - he brings attention to his heritage, but he doesn't extent it over an entire Black population - he realizes that he belongs to a limited group, and knows what that identity means.

[Virgil]

Well, I suspect that those who are not American don't have a tangible (I don't mean intellectual) understanding of the history of African-American experience. Sorry, it is a special subculture that has its own special and distinct experience, its own special and distinct intellectual tradition, and a special and distinct identity in contra distinction to the mass culture in which it finds itself at large. Based on the comments here, I more than suspect it. I know it. By never having gone to school with African-Americans, never having contact, both positive and negative, with inner city people, never venturing into a black neighborhood in a northern town or a black town in the south, you don't and can't get it. You have to be an American to really understand it.


Stories go beyond culture, I think. It might be easier for a female author to write practically about a female protagonist than it would for a male author (the same goes for a Black author writing about Black protagonists)
I completely agree with that. I can't write honestly from a black perspective. I have a vague memory of James Baldwin writing a novel from a white man's point of view and it was considered lousy. I'm not sure what novel that was but I understand the problem.


but reading Gone With the Wind or Things Fall Apart, if you didn't know who the authors were, you couldn't know for sure that they weren't written by a man or non-African respectively. I don't see anything wrong with asking 'who is the best Black author' (or who is the best author from any culture/social group)
I don't see anything wrong with it either.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Quite an amusing thread...


but reading Gone With the Wind or Things Fall Apart, if you didn't know who the authors were, you couldn't know for sure that they weren't written by a man or non-African respectively. I don't see anything wrong with asking 'who is the best Black author' (or who is the best author from any culture/social group)



I don't see anything wrong with it either.

There is nothing wrong with it but it is a bit arbitrary as others have suggested. One might as well ask who are the best authors who wear orange jumpers?

I don't like defining people by race or skin colour, and personally I would rather just read the best books and have done with it.

In regards to white people writing books from a black perspective Alexander McCall's Smith's Madame Ramotswe strikes me as particularly effective, though I couldn't claim empirical knowledge of what it is like to be an African women, his books certainly feel as if they could have been written by an African and not a pasty old Scot!

[Virgil]

There is nothing wrong with it but it is a bit arbitrary as others have suggested. One might as well ask who are the best authors who wear orange jumpers?

I don't like defining people by race or skin colour, and personally I would rather just read the best books and have done with it.


It is not arbitrary. Read my post above. It is not skin color. It is sub culture.

[JBI]

Well, I suspect that those who are not American don't have a tangible (I don't mean intellectual) understanding of the history of African-American experience. Sorry, it is a special subculture that has its own special and distinct experience, its own special and distinct intellectual tradition, and a special and distinct identity in contra distinction to the mass culture in which it finds itself at large. Based on the comments here, I more than suspect it. I know it. By never having gone to school with African-Americans, never having contact, both positive and negative, with inner city people, never venturing into a black neighborhood in a northern town or a black town in the south, you don't and can't get it. You have to be an American to really understand it.


I completely agree with that. I can't write honestly from a black perspective. I have a vague memory of James Baldwin writing a novel from a white man's point of view and it was considered lousy. I'm not sure what novel that was but I understand the problem.


I don't see anything wrong with it either.

Is it the same experience - African American critics, I would argue, would to disagree. Much less, even within the political movement, there is no essentialized experience - work of feminist African-American women has significantly highlighted it, but even take a simple example as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ

We may choose to agree about his historical basis or not, but the point is, he seemed to see division, and the audience seemed to see division, so clearly there isn't a sort of "communal identity" - there is no essential experience that is the same for everyone, and I would wager, given that a country like the US has many accents and vernaculars, that there isn't one spoken or written language either.

[billl]

What about best Canadian writer?

[JBI]

What about best Canadian writer?

Who counts as Canadian, and who counts as expat - the question is really unanswerable, and so is who is the best Canadian author - with the exception of probably Margaret Atwood, I think everyone would reject the title.

[billl]

@JBI (mostly)

Hmph. I'm just thinking that, in any sub-grouping, there's gonna be those who reject this sort of thing, and those that don't, and the percentages will vary case-by-case, and even through time. I'm surprised that only one Canadian maybe wouldn't reject such a title, but you'd probably have to be right about something like that (with a little humorous exaggeration maybe (?), but point taken).

Anyhow, it reminds me of the Nobel prize thread that popped up in General Chat or something a few weeks ago. It got me thinking about how it might actually be fair, at least occasionally, for writers (artists, etc.) to be appreciated or judged/awarded based on a particular context of content (e.g. setting, including culture), and maybe extending into a context of the creator's melieu. There are bang up writers in Nepal, apparently, and they deserve recognition, and that's pretty much just gonna come from people looking at Nepal literature. And we are ignoring them (for the most part) every time we talk about writers here. The main tricky thing with a Nepalese writer is the language, of course, but I think that cultural knowledge/backstory/unwritten assumptions can maybe provide enough reason for sub-groups to be considered as being worthy of their own discussion/accolades. Someone in Denmark is conceivably going to relate to a translation of Gunter Grass better than they relate to a translation of a modern novel written for a Nepalese readership. There's a shared history/culture thing going on in some of the countries that have been developed and interacting for longer periods of time.

I am with JBI a bit, however, in the sense that I feel the OP was too broad, looking at "best black writer". I expect, however, that some might disagree with us on that, and see a level of "solidarity" or "shared heritage of struggle" or perhaps some more-accurately-expressed basis for such a categorization of literature.

But when I consider the category "African-American Literature," I do see something that people might want to discuss and give/receive accolades for. And I can also imagine some African-American readers/writers objecting to it. But I don't have much sympathy for those non-African-Americans that want to make a lot of noise about the first group being wrong about the issue--unless they're trumpeting the excellence of an African-American novel or something. Something in a "come on, let's get up to speed on this African-American writer everybody, why isn't anyone reviewing it?!?!" vein or whatever. It is natural to feel that way, or at least to prefer a world where such a category weren't "necessary," but those writers and readers are the ultimate arbiters, of course.

I think the African-American language and cultural landscape is particularly familiar to a sub-group that would be particularly skilled at judging it. I've had some exposure to it, and I could maybe point at a tentative favorite out of those, but I'm really not close to being well-informed enough to make a pronouncement.

[billl]

Who counts as Canadian, and who counts as expat - the question is really unanswerable, and so is who is the best Canadian author.

I was thinking that it would be limited to Canadian citizens, but if someone raised in Canada moved somewhere else, they would be good ones to include. Of course, finer threads can be pulled from this, but that's true about science fiction, horror, novel/novella, etc. and we still have awards for those.

[Etienne]

I think some of you are misinterpreting what I said. I'm not saying black authors aren't as good as other writers, I'm just saying that it surprised me that black authors are [U]as good[U] as other writers. That's all. In other words I thought black authors would have tailored their writing to black readers and therefore anyone other than blacks wouldn't enjoy it as much, or at least would find it difficult to follow. That's what I meant. :nod:

And myself, I was really surprised, after reading some indian writers, that they could actually write good. I mean I just thought indians were just not as good as others... ;)

French literature has a lot of very good "black" authors, who even developed different movements the "négritude" and "créolité" movements. Some of the best-known names are Aimé Césaire, Édouard Glissant, Patrick Chamoiseau and Raphaël Confiant, Maryse Condé (I don't think she fits in the category, but she's a black writer in any case).

[Virgil]

Is it the same experience - African American critics, I would argue, would to disagree. Much less, even within the political movement, there is no essentialized experience - work of feminist African-American women has significantly highlighted it, but even take a simple example as this one:

Where do you get they would disagree? Are you aware of the vast Black Studies departments and specialized degrees just for the study of African-American culture throughout the United States? Just google Black studies programs and you'll see that almost every college has a department dedicated just for this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ

We may choose to agree about his historical basis or not, but the point is, he seemed to see division, and the audience seemed to see division, so clearly there isn't a sort of "communal identity" - there is no essential experience that is the same for everyone, and I would wager, given that a country like the US has many accents and vernaculars, that there isn't one spoken or written language either.
I have no idea what that video has in reference to this discussion. If anything it supports my argument. The very notion of "house and field negroes" is part of the intellectual tradition of black subculture that I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. That didn't come from a white thought process, but through black people internally debating issues and ideas. That's a black subculture distinction.

People not from the US have to understand that we had first slavery and then segregation between the races, where different lines of thinking and traditions developed. How do you think Jazz and blues and now rap evolved from? It has certainly changed in the last fifty years, but I do not think completely merged yet.

Let me also be clear: This black subculture is part of American culture, it's a subset, but having it's own distinct traditions.

[OrphanPip]

People not from the US have to understand that we had first slavery and then segregation between the races, where different lines of thinking and traditions developed. How do you think Jazz and blues and now rap evolved from? It has certainly changed in the last fifty years, but I do not think completely merged yet.

Let me also be clear: This black subculture is part of American culture, it's a subset, but having it's own distinct traditions.

I don't think JBI's point is that there are no distinct cultural experiences shared by groups of African Americans, but just that black is too broad a term. There is a broad range of cultural experiences of African Americans. It is obvious that the experiences of blacks in the North have been different from those growing up in the South. Likewise, there is a huge difference between urban and rural African American culture. This reminds me of Alice Walker and her persistent use of quilting and sewing metaphors that are taken out of the experiences of Southern and rural black society, which may not speak to the experiences of African Americans who grew up in Harlem.

We also shouldn't forget about the different experiences of recent immigrants from the Caribbean and Africa, who probably have a completely different view of what it means to be black.

[Virgil]

I don't think JBI's point is that there are no distinct cultural experiences shared by groups of African Americans, but just that black is too broad a term. There is a broad range of cultural experiences of African Americans. It is obvious that the experiences of blacks in the North have been different from those growing up in the South. Likewise, there is a huge difference between urban and rural African American culture. This reminds me of Alice Walker and her persistent use of quilting and sowing metaphors that are taken out of the experiences of Southern and rural black society, which may not speak to the experiences of African Americans who grew up in Harlem.

Seems like you're making my argument. We are then in agreement that there is a disticnt African-Ameericanb experience. Remember what this discussion was about: who was the best black american writer and whether such a distinction is meaningful. Obviously such a distinction is meaningful.


We also shouldn't forget about the different experiences of recent immigrants from the Caribbean and Africa, who probably have a completely different view of what it means to be black.
I would agree with that. How the subculture evolves or even if it continues to have substance remains to be seen.

[Hank Stamper]

I think some of you are misinterpreting what I said. I'm not saying black authors aren't as good as other writers, I'm just saying that it surprised me that black authors are [U]as good[U] as other writers.

you are still hinting (whether intentionally or not) that just by the dint of somebody's skin colour the quality of their writing is predetermined - why should it surprise you that black authors are 'as good' as other writers? i can imagine it surprising a backward thinking 19th century colonialist, im not sure why anybody in the 21st century should be surprised?

but to answer your question - i think chimamanda ngozi adichie or ben okri are worthy of your attention/surprise... things fall apart by achebe is another must-read

[JBI]

Where do you get they would disagree? Are you aware of the vast Black Studies departments and specialized degrees just for the study of African-American culture throughout the United States? Just google Black studies programs and you'll see that almost every college has a department dedicated just for this.


I have no idea what that video has in reference to this discussion. If anything it supports my argument. The very notion of "house and field negroes" is part of the intellectual tradition of black subculture that I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. That didn't come from a white thought process, but through black people internally debating issues and ideas. That's a black subculture distinction.

People not from the US have to understand that we had first slavery and then segregation between the races, where different lines of thinking and traditions developed. How do you think Jazz and blues and now rap evolved from? It has certainly changed in the last fifty years, but I do not think completely merged yet.

Let me also be clear: This black subculture is part of American culture, it's a subset, but having it's own distinct traditions.

There is African-American studies in institutions, that is true, but the very field, at least once you get to a graduate level, ultimately questions its own effectiveness, and seeks to take into account the limitations of representation, and the nuance and difference within the "community" as a whole - you get the same thing with Area Studies in universities as well, as well as Feminist studies, and even American studies - the discourse ultimately questions itself, and always, or should always, unless the academic writing wants a terrible backlash and debasement, takes into account its own limitations - the very notion of race and culture, in current academic circles have been deconstructed, and any serious academic tends to take that into account.

[753c]

Indian Boy,
I'm black. Here are some of my favorites:

Ellsion, "Invisable Man" - This is the one you really have to read.
Claude Brown, "Man Child In The Promised Land" - This is the one you will enjoy the most.
Edward P. Jones, "The Known World" - This is the best piece of recent fiction from a black author IMO.

Start there. If you are still hungry after that post again. Good Luck!

[MANICHAEAN]

I'm surprised. No one has mentioned James Baldwin.

[OrphanPip]

I'm surprised. No one has mentioned James Baldwin.

Actually, he was mentioned in the fourth post. :p

James Baldwin is a pretty important figure in both queer literature and African American literature, a good one to read.

[MANICHAEAN]

Sorry Orphan. I missed it.
Leaving aside whatever which way he wanted to swing, I enjoyed Giovanni's Room, Go Tell It On the Mountain & Another Country.