Matter of faith - what it means?

[JommiL]

Ok, this is maybe quite deep thing, - i try to express myself as clear i can.

What is going to happen about faith in this world? If we are going to think faith, there´s two - in my case - point of views; First is the lack of faith in religion. It seems like religion´s power is getting weak, or people has no faith at all; They belong into church just for habbit. Also lack of faith corrupts easily our sense of morality; We are going to have some blind spots about the way we see other people, ourselves and whole society. Perhaps this is one of main thing, why our heavy-class intellectuals are not listened.

Another point of lack of faith is much more personal. To me it seems like we don´t - of course all of us - have faith even for other people. I mean, that many people today think that they are SO individuals, that it kicks down even normal, but deep conversation. If someone has some good point of views etc. he can be "shot down". Sometimes it is also because of enviness, perhaps. Individualism i a good thing, but it is very moral thing, basically.

This for a start. What is your opinion/way to see this?

[blazeofglory]

Faith is something that we are so much passionate about and we are so much attached to it and we need it for a simple reason that we can feel comfortable and protected with a particular faith. Faith is a great soother or comforter but excessive faith leads to acts of violence and history supports this fact, and excessive faith leads to extremisms and that is why today we Christian, Islamic, Hindu fanaticisms and fundamentalisms ingesting humanity. Since all of us engage in shoring up our own faiths against others this will subject us to a series of ferocious acts. We all want to cement our own faiths and that poses challenges to others’. Then imagine how your faiths can help institute systems, restore laws and order and harmony in society. It seems we can be better off without faiths today than so many faiths that fight with one another

[JommiL]

Good point.

My opinion is, that anyway we should have faith - and VERY strong moral backbone. In history - and even in modern days there´s a lot of violence and other things, because there´s faihtful people WITHOUT morality. So faith without moral is dangerous thing.

[blazeofglory]

Faith and morality at times are mutually exclusive, for when people have excessive faith in something he does not bother to do anything, moral or immoral to that end and that is why today fundamentalists are on the grow all over the world for that very reason

[The Atheist]

Ok, this is maybe quite deep thing, - i try to express myself as clear i can.

Looks good to me; I'll play!


What is going to happen about faith in this world? If we are going to think faith, there´s two - in my case - point of views; First is the lack of faith in religion. It seems like religion´s power is getting weak, or people has no faith at all; They belong into church just for habbit.

Do you have any evidence to support that idea?

I talk to lots and lots of christians and find their faith is as strong as it's ever been.

Yes, there are some people who go to church for social or habitual reasons, but I'm sure they are a small minority, and usually found in older "mainstream" churches.

What's going to happen to it?

Very little, I imagine - we've had faith in all sorts of things ever since we began thinking, so I don't expect change in my or my kids' lifetimes.


Also lack of faith corrupts easily our sense of morality; We are going to have some blind spots about the way we see other people, ourselves and whole society. Perhaps this is one of main thing, why our heavy-class intellectuals are not listened.

I agree entirely with the point you make: faith corrupts our sense of morality... It must do. Faith doesn't sit well with questions, because in religious faith, the ultimate answer is unchallengeable: "god says so".

Since we can't ask any god/s ourselves, people can only have faith in what someone else tells them , which opens up corruption immediately. There's also pretty sound evidence over the past few thousand years.

On the opposing side, I'm not too sure what heavy-class intellectuals are worth. I see plenty of them as well, and while they;re often right, they are also capable of making some horrible errors as well.


Another point of lack of faith is much more personal. To me it seems like we don´t - of course all of us - have faith even for other people.

Become a cynic like me - I ain't got no faith in nobody!

:)


I mean, that many people today think that they are SO individuals, that it kicks down even normal, but deep conversation. If someone has some good point of views etc. he can be "shot down". Sometimes it is also because of enviness, perhaps. Individualism i a good thing, but it is very moral thing, basically.

This for a start. What is your opinion/way to see this?

I think you touch on one of the oldest arguments for religion - that morality is entirely subjective. I know people who will quite rationally make a case for abortions being legal up until labour starts, while I'd make a rational case that it's murder, so the views on almost any moral matter can be direct opposites of each other.

This is why a very few people a long time ago decided to cut through the mess and create a god to "give" us morality which can't be questioned.

[JommiL]

Do you have any evidence to support that idea?

I talk to lots and lots of christians and find their faith is as strong as it's ever been.

----- Yes, because usually people act like this; When something important is missing, they try to support it. And it is NOT an bad idea, because if we DON´T support our morality, there´s no morality after all.

Yes, there are some people who go to church for social or habitual reasons, but I'm sure they are a small minority, and usually found in older "mainstream" churches.

What's going to happen to it?

Very little, I imagine - we've had faith in all sorts of things ever since we began thinking, so I don't expect change in my or my kids' lifetimes.



I agree entirely with the point you make: faith corrupts our sense of morality... It must do. Faith doesn't sit well with questions, because in religious faith, the ultimate answer is unchallengeable: "god says so".

-------- There´s no God, who just say like this; "This and that is bad thing. Don´t do it." Difference between good and bad things are always in what we do - and what comes after it! We can accept it, we can deny it, but reason sense is following us. It is a law of nature.

Since we can't ask any god/s ourselves, people can only have faith in what someone else tells them , which opens up corruption immediately. There's also pretty sound evidence over the past few thousand years.

You are right! Milan Kundera says that if we don´t have ANY upper matter or institution etc. we can keep as value everything. I believe that this is the main point of ours moral corruption, am i right?

(You know, i have discussed about these things here in Finland many times, and we have some VERY heavy-class intellectuals, but this conversation is quite important. Glad to have it!)



On the opposing side, I'm not too sure what heavy-class intellectuals are worth. I see plenty of them as well, and while theyre often right, they are also capable of making some horrible errors as well.


----- Well, to me, intellectual is something like this; He is VERY high thinker, not non-understadable, but perhaps sometimes difficult. He has VERY high sense of morality; He does not hurt anyone - in physically or mentally, tries to keep up freedom, he/she can say things straight but sensitively, he/she can destroy others points of views, but he is still handsome (i´n not. I´m Like good damn J.J Rousseau..)

[The Atheist]

----- Yes, because usually people act like this; When something important is missing, they try to support it. And it is NOT an bad idea, because if we DON´T support our morality, there´s no morality after all.

No, it doesn't work like that at all.

Secular governments and humanists show that it's perfectly possible to have a common morality by agreement of certain human "rights", most of which are embodied in UN Charters, and the UN is nothing if not secular.

Yes, there are some people who go to church for social or habitual reasons, but I'm sure they are a small minority, and usually found in older "mainstream" churches.


You are right! Milan Kundera says that if we don´t have ANY upper matter or institution etc. we can keep as value everything. I believe that this is the main point of ours moral corruption, am i right?

I think we're on the same track, yes!


(You know, i have discussed about these things here in Finland many times, and we have some VERY heavy-class intellectuals, but this conversation is quite important. Glad to have it!)

A pleasure!

:)


Well, to me, intellectual is something like this; He is VERY high thinker, not non-understadable, but perhaps sometimes difficult. He has VERY high sense of morality; He does not hurt anyone - in physically or mentally, tries to keep up freedom, he/she can say things straight but sensitively, he/she can destroy others points of views, but he is still handsome (i´n not. I´m Like good damn J.J Rousseau..)

:lol:

I'd like to know who you mean, because all the intellectuals I can think of, from Richard Dawkins to Rowan Williams, are flawed as much as any man. (I said man, because there have never been any female philosophers. ;) )

Bertrand Russell once said that every philosophy should be questioned, even one's own.

I just don't think there is such a perfect being as you describe. To be honest, what you're talking about seems to be the shallow kind of philosophy where style wins over substance.

[JommiL]

No, it doesn't work like that at all.

Secular governments and humanists show that it's perfectly possible to have a common morality by agreement of certain human "rights", most of which are embodied in UN Charters, and the UN is nothing if not secular.

--- i´ll disagree. It is possible but basically hard to keep.


Yes, there are some people who go to church for social or habitual reasons, but I'm sure they are a small minority, and usually found in older "mainstream" churches.



I think we're on the same track, yes!



A pleasure!

:)



:lol:

I'd like to know who you mean, because all the intellectuals I can think of, from Richard Dawkins to Rowan Williams, are flawed as much as any man. (I said man, because there have never been any female philosophers. ;) )

---- Of course! (Those missing female philosophers are intresting - perhaps they are the reason why men are one...?)



Bertrand Russell once said that every philosophy should be questioned, even one's own.

I just don't think there is such a perfect being as you describe. To be honest, what you're talking about seems to be the shallow kind of philosophy where style wins over substance.


---- I´ll be back soon!

[blazeofglory]

Faith is a passion, something that is so much powerful and faith is more powerful than reason. Reason is cool but passion is hot.