Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus (Pliny the Younger)

[LukeS.]

Pliny the Younger (61-c.117) was a wealthy landowner who flourished during the reigns of Domitian and Trajan. He was a lawyer, essentially, who was devoted to literature. His claim to fame? A body of letters he wrote to friends and subsequently published. His most famous letters are those describing the eruption of Vesuvius and one to Trajan describing the practices of the Christians in Bithynia.

I have begun reading Sherwin-White's Fifty Letters of Pliny, which is a publication of the original Latin texts. In this thread, I will post my original translations of each letter as I read. I'm doing this because, well, I find the letters interesting in themselves, but I don't see him listed anywhere on the website. So this can be a "Pliny Discussion Thread" and also a place to read some of his letters. Of course, fifty letters is only a drop in the bucket, considering he published 247 of them, plus the 121 letters to Trajan with replies. But the selection is a good cross-section of his works.

It is my goal to post one letter a day, but some of the longer ones may take more time to polish. Letter 1 follows this post. (Oh, and if there is anything wrong with this project, like if I shouldn't be doing this here, please advise.)

[LukeS.]

C. Pliny to his friend Septicius, Hello!

You've often urged me to gather together and publish my letters, if I had written any with some care. I have collected them. I didn't keep them in any order (I'm not writing a history-book), but I've organized them in whatever order I found them. All that's left is for you not to regret your advice, and for me not to regret following it! So from here on out, I will look for other letters which may still be lying around, and if I write new ones I won't hold them back. Take care.

[mal4mac]

I have begun reading Sherwin-White's Fifty Letters of Pliny, and in this thread, I will post translations of each letter as I read.


Are you using Sherwin-White's translation? If so are you sure there are no copyright issues? Anyway, it's not appropriate to post letters in a forum thread. Why not summarise one of Pliny's arguments in a paragraph, ask a few questions, and provide a link to the original letter - there are probably plenty of sites that already host the letters. Forum threads should be like conversations in a pub.

[LukeS.]

No, these are original translations of my own, I am not "using" any translation. The text is a collection of Latin texts. Sorry I wasn't clear about that. I'll edit my original post to make that clear.

Besides, all of these are available on The Latin Library--the text is the same. I'm essentially translating a selection of 50 of these letters.

[mal4mac]

No, these are original translations of my own, I am not "using" any translation. The text is a collection of Latin texts. Sorry I wasn't clear about that. I'll edit my original post to make that clear.

Besides, all of these are available on The Latin Library--the text is the same. I'm essentially translating a selection of 50 of these letters.

I wouldn't read an amateur translator. Doubt many here would. Unless they were in a generous mood and the approach was made more subtly than this.

I think it would be improper to flood the general literature forum with your own amateur efforts. It would be like jumping up in a pub and shouting: "listen to *my* translation of Pliny!" There you would get immediate feedback of beer hurled at you. Here you need a strong hint not to do it. This is it :D

[kiki1982]

I wouldn't read an amateur translator. Doubt many here would. Unless they were in a generous mood and the approach was made more subtly than this.

I think it would be improper to flood the general literature forum with your own amateur efforts. It would be like jumping up in a pub and shouting: "listen to *my* translation of Pliny!" There you would get immediate feedback of beer hurled at you. Here you need a strong hint not to do it. This is it :D

I don't think we should be so snobbish about translators. There are enough professional translators who are absolute crap at their job. And I can know it as I read in 4 languages. Some translations just do not make sense or even give the wrong interpretations (even worse as people study those books in translation).

For the ones who do know Latin, this topic could be interesting to have a look. I am not one of them, but I am speaking for the ones who do.

Other than this, the forum Moderator will move the topic if inappropriate. Possibly this would be better on the Writing-forum, but I am just a member.

So, LukeS, by all means continue!

[LukeS.]

Mal: Wow, that's incredibly insulting, inappropriate and ignorant. You don't even know me.

I've spent the last decade studying Latin and Ancient Greek, I teach Latin and I have advanced degrees in the subject. I'm not some random amateur. Furthermore, I noticed that the website here has no Pliny and I'm merely offering a free translation of some of his texts. I'm not here to toot my own horn, brag or show off. If that were my goal I would have rattled off my degrees and listed all the scholarship on Pliny I've produced in the first post. I'm not here for ego, and my goal is only to contribute my expertise to the fora here. The only reason I made a point to say that these are "my original translations" is because you mistakenly thought that I was merely reposting preexisting translations.

If you have a problem with this thread, then please, don't read it. So far you are the only person to act this way, and reading the forum rules I don't see any prohibitions against it. There is no Pliny forum, and I don't see any other forum which would be more appropriate. We can read and discuss Pliny here.

I also don't think this is at all "like jumping up in a pub and shouting: 'listen to *my* translation of Pliny!' " It's more like me saying, "hey guys, over here I'm going to read Pliny, come join me if you want to read along and discuss."

If admins or more people insist that this isn't appropriate, then I'll desist. But coming in here and insulting my intelligence simply isn't appropriate.

[kasie]

Good evening, LukeS - thanks for the translation. My Latin is rusty in the extreme - that's rusty as in 'I don't think I've attempted an extended translation since taking O-level in 1963....' However I was inspired to tackle Pliny, more likely in translation than in the original, when I visited the excavation of the Roman villa at Chichester a couple of weeks ago and as part of the display showing how the garden was re-created, there were quotations from Pliny's letters on the subject of gardens. This was a man who knew and loved his gardens, I felt.

I feel more than a little diffident at expressing an opinion as to the accuracy of the translation (even if you had provided the original alongside for comparison) but your version has a jaunty, colloquial style that seems to me to be appropriate for a personal letter. I look forward to reading more. Are any of the replies extant?

[LukeS.]

No, we don't have any replies except for the letters written to Trajan. But those letters were not published with the others and have a different manuscript tradition--Trajan's responses would have been considered legal documents. Pliny published his letters more out of a desire to showcase his literary talents than anything else, and in this they are very different from Cicero's--Cicero never intended to publish his letters and many of them are embarrassing.

Pliny did write a very very long and detailed description of his villa. He was veeery proud of it. The letter isn't in the collection I'm reading now, and I would probably skip it if it were! It is an interesting idea but quite tedious to read.

[dfloyd]

a little abrupt in his criticism. Posting translations, whether from Latin or some other language, IMO is not what this forum is about. I wouldn't read it, and I think posts like this could ruin the forum. I thought that this forum was supposed to be about books read by literature lovers, but I see all kinds of posts which tend to weaken the forum. Polls on comic book heros, literature posts which are esoteric and only of interest to those getting some sort of advanced literature degree, and I don't know what else. If you can't post threads of general interest to book lovers, then stay off the forum, unless the monitors deem otherwise. In that case, perhaps I should resign. There aren't enough good posts now, and this guy wants to post Latin translations? I guess I should count to ten to preserve my temper: Unus, duo, tres, quinque .....

[LukeS.]

Well, say I wanted to go to the Literature Network and read Descent of Man. (http://www.online-literature.com/darwin/descent_man/) As I read, I could post to the appropriate forum at the bottom of the page if I had anything to say about it.

However, there is no specific Pliny or even Roman literature forum, because The Literature Network does not host Pliny. But I think there are good reasons to read his letters, since (a) his letters are finely polished (b) they provide insight to many many aspects of life during the Roman empire and (c) actual letters from ancient Rome are extremely rare; the only other major example we have is the body of Cicero's letters (Seneca's works are cast as epistles, but they aren't real communication.) Plus I just happen to want to discuss his work, because I'm reading it right now, and it is literature.

So what do I do if I wanted to discuss Pliny? Where would I post? I'd post here, I believe. If there is no specific author forum, you post comments about them here, in General Literature, right? So is there any harm, really, in also providing the text, since there is none provided on the site? Would it harm the site less if, every day, I post on the letter I read, commenting on it without quoting it, and you had no idea what I was talking about? Am I not allowed to talk about Pliny at all?

I mean, I'm not asking anyone to critique my translations or appreciate them or anything like that. And it doesn't require you to have advanced knowledge of anything or any linguistic expertise to read them and discuss them.

That's pretty much my thought process when I decided to post this. I had no idea that it would provoke rage, insults, and people needing to count to ten and so on.

Sorry for going on so long. I'm frustrated, because I don't know all the practices of the site, and I wrote in my first post "if I shouldn't be doing this here, please advise," and I am confronted with vitriol.

[Logos]

Hello Luke, welcome to LitNet :)

Please, continue to post your translations here; you're allowed to post what you wish, as long as it's within the forum rules and we welcome new people who want to share their writing with us.

No we don't have a specific author forum for Pliny yet, but they are on the list to be added some day.

As to the others, please stay on topic; and if you don't like it there's lots of other areas of the site you can read.

[LukeS.]

Pliny was a contemporary to Tacitus, the famous historian. Many of his letters are addressed to Tacitus, for they were friends. This one is cute, a harmless little piece about writing while hunting.


You will laugh, but that's okay. I, the very Pliny you know, caught three of the most beautiful boars you've ever seen. “Him?!” you ask. Yes, him. But! I didn't altogether depart from my repose and inactivity. You see, I was sitting by the nets, yet there were beside me no hunting lance nor spear, but a pen and a writing tablet. I sat thinking and wrote a little here and there, so that even if I should return from the hunt with an empty hand, I would nevertheless have a full tablet.

You shouldn't criticise. It's amazing how the mind is stimulated by exercise! The solitude of the forest, the silence which accompanies hunting...these things are great inducements to thinking. So when next you go hunting, it is permitted—on my authority—that you take along a basket of bread and a little wine and even your writing tablets. You may find Diana wandering the mountains no more than Minerva. Take care.

[Niamh]

I like it. It makes me think of the writing tablets found in Vindolanda. The simplicity of the language gives character i think. I'll be interested in reading your Pompeii ones when you get to it. :nod: I've a section on Roman life in college next year so these might prove helpful.

Keep it up!

[LukeS.]

I am toning the language down a little bit, but there are some which are very polished and deserve a very elevated translation.

Indeed, he is referring to just that sort of tablet as such found in Vindolanda. That was the notebook of the ancient world.