What Makes Man Seek Out Religion, A God, Or Spiritual Truth?

[soundofmusic]

:angel: From my first memories, I remember being forced to leave behind Christmas presents and Easter baskets,being dressed hurriedly in scratchy uncomfortable clothes and sitting on pews for hours listening to ministers shouting frightening stories of people who didn't go to church and died in car accidents; ballet dancers who lost both legs so they could find God. My nights were horrific wondering if I would die and go to hell :flare: for thinking bad things about my brother:argue: Yet, I can't ever recall being drawn to places of worship or theology. I never really cared what "The Truth" was; or wondered "Why we're here", the fact that we were here was enough for me.
So what makes man so curious about God, The truth of mans existence? :brickwall

[LMK]

There are myriad reasons people seek God (by any name or description). Inventors, and scientists, philosophers and teachers through the ages try to find reasons and explanations, so why not seek the ultimate why of all?

The ultimate mystery; looking up at the stars and wondering what's beyond that...and then what's belyond that...and then what's beyond that....etc.

The power of the mind/spirit, our personal thumbprint on this material existence (even if there is no other existence before or after; which may or may not be so). There is a power in each of us, our thoughts our actions, our intentions. Then put a group of like-minded individuals together and amazing things happen.

Religion is a different topic altogether. Religion is about what people do and about creeds they accept/believe and thus live their lives accordingly (that's the idea at least). Some feel drawn, some feel frightened of the alternative, some to see who is participating (like we need that hall monitor) and some to be seen (the ego is another powerful thing...donating money to build a wing of a hospital and then plastering your name on it...that's ego, not philanthropy, in my opinion, but then this entire post is just my lil ole opinion).

LMK

[soundofmusic]

Then put a group of like-minded individuals together and amazing things happen.

Religion is a different topic altogether. Religion is about what people do and about creeds they accept/believe and thus live their lives accordingly (that's the idea at least). Some feel drawn, some feel frightened of the alternative, some to see who is participating (like we need that hall monitor) and some to be seen (the ego is another powerful thing...donating money to build a wing of a hospital and then plastering your name on it...that's ego, not philanthropy, in my opinion, but then this entire post is just my lil ole opinion).

LMK

:nod: You are a great mind and an eloguent writer. I must admit; I hadn't quite thought of the idea from every perspective ::idea:
I was brought up a pentecostal; I married a catholic who became a Jehovah's Witness, divorced and married a methodist who became an Atheist until he had a terminal disease. I became an agnostic for a while; but now I tend to go about "grocery shopping" for religious convictions: picking up a bit of Darwinism here, purchasing alittle bit of Buddism there, occasionally taking a pinch or christianity (though I leave hell and Creationism alone)

[mal4mac]

My nights were horrific wondering if I would die and go to hell for thinking bad things about my brother.

That's one of Richard Dawkins main arguments for not indoctrinating children with fundamentalist Christianity. As my father dimissed religion as "science fiction", I was never bothered by any fear of hell. I've never really been religious (thank God!) Try reading "The God Delusion" to see why man needn't seek out religion or God.



Yet, I can't ever recall being drawn to places of worship or theology. I never really cared what "The Truth" was; or wondered "Why we're here", the fact that we were here was enough for me.

That seems like an entirely healthy attitude to me. No one's come up with any answers to these questions, so not being bothered about them seems a nice way to be. Forget about scrabbling about searching for a permanently hidden "Truth" and get on with being happy!

[soundofmusic]

That's one of Richard Dawkins main arguments for not indoctrinating children with fundamentalist Christianity. As my father dimissed religion as "science fiction", I was never bothered by any fear of hell. I've never really been religious (thank God!) Try reading "The God Delusion" to see why man needn't seek out religion or God.



That seems like an entirely healthy attitude to me. No one's come up with any answers to these questions, so not being bothered about them seems a nice way to be. Forget about scrabbling about searching for a permanently hidden "Truth" and get on with being happy!

Thank you, You were certainly fortunate to have a hell-free childhood. :cold: It's interesting, though, while I could have lived my entire life without ever wondering about "the great truths"; my daughter seems to feel as if there was something missing in her childhood without the definitive influence of religiion. I wanted her to have the freedom to examine all belief systems.
I believe I will check out the Richard Dawkins book; I had never heard of him until a South Park episode; Have you ever seen one. They are utterly irreverent; but they have rather expanded my interests. :nod:

[JBI]

That's one of Richard Dawkins main arguments for not indoctrinating children with fundamentalist Christianity. As my father dimissed religion as "science fiction", I was never bothered by any fear of hell. I've never really been religious (thank God!) Try reading "The God Delusion" to see why man needn't seek out religion or God.


I dunno - I don't particularly like the Dawkins' Atheist mentality, and I myself am a nonbeliever in almost anything - I think the God Delusion creates this sort of "superiority complex" amongst atheists, which is flat out rude. I know, I know, there's no evidence for God or whatever, but that doesn't mean one cannot appreciate that some people perhaps have illogical beliefs because of culture, and practice them innocently.

As it, it would have been better if he had worked to really appreciate a nuanced side, and taken into effect all the socio-political factors, but, alas, he did not.

[mal4mac]

I dunno - I don't particularly like the Dawkins' Atheist mentality, and I myself am a nonbeliever in almost anything - I think the God Delusion creates this sort of "superiority complex" amongst atheists...

I don't really see that. He's a Popperian and so hold sther eis no absolute truth, which is about as humble an attitude as you can get. Fundamenatlists go around saying 'I know THE TRUTH'. Now *that's* a superiority complex. I don't think Dawkins is rude at all, a bit blunt now and again maybe.



... some people perhaps have illogical beliefs because of culture, and practice them innocently.


Like some early Christians? Unfortunatley that virus mutated into the Spanish Inquisition. So it seems perfectly valid to (bluntly) question the views of peaceful Christians - you don't know how the kids might turn out!




As it, it would have been better if he had worked to really appreciate a nuanced side, and taken into effect all the socio-political factors...


If he could have done that then he would be God...

[soundofmusic]

I'm afraid I am not as well informed as you gentleman on this topic; I admire your knowledge and eloquence. I checked out a bit of Dawkins on interviews and you tube: With the little I saw; he seemed to be placing the responsibility to prove the case of a God with believers. I also found him alittle passive-aggressive; a very soft man carrying a very big stick.
I do feel that throughout history; and to this day, religious fanaticism has caused horrific tragedies. I have never quite understood why religion couldn't be like this literature forum; something that benefits the mind, enlightens and strengthens social ties. I often think that the people who start these cults do not even believe in what they preach, they just want power, money and a certain sadistic pleasure in seeing people torment themselves and others.:(

[Eryk]

In cultures where few people have any rights, many people cling to the hope of seeing justice beyond this life.

In pre-scientific cultures, people see organisms but they don't see how they developed over long periods of time. A plant or animal just is what it is, a sort of handicraft. A creator makes a thing, not a process.

When a country develops social programs and an economic safety net, you have far fewer people experiencing the kind of crises that drive many to faith. This is why America is far more religious than Europe.

[The Atheist]

So what makes man so curious about God, The truth of mans existence? :brickwall

Short answer:

Someone to blame, someone to look up to, fear of death.

And this:


In cultures where few people have any rights, many people cling to the hope of seeing justice beyond this life.

It seems to be very comforting to think that a sky-daddy evens it all out when we're dead.


When a country develops social programs and an economic safety net, you have far fewer people experiencing the kind of crises that drive many to faith. This is why America is far more religious than Europe.

I'm not sure that's right - there seems to be a conclusion drawn on incomplete data.

If your premise was correct, you'd see few rich theists, yet the example of USA shows that well-off are more likely to be churchgoers than the poor.

[soundofmusic]

Short answer:

Someone to blame, someone to look up to, fear of death.

the example of USA shows that well-off are more likely to be churchgoers than the poor.

I believe you are correct, Atheist: I notice that when people dabble in amoral turf; they blame God if they are caught. They look to visions and dreams to tell them the numbers of the lotto. And something that has always perplexed me is that I've noticed of all my patients, the ones who fear death the most are those who seem to have the greatest faith in God. I believe it is because fundamentalist religion focuses so much on punishment.

Just a note: I remember a story I read some time ago about one of our great American Politicians who, when young, had some difficult getting into the Senate. So he began to court a young woman from a poorer neighborhood whose family had a lot of social and political connections through her church...
Our poor, perhaps go to church, in the hope that God will bless them with riches and everlasting life. Our wealthy go to church to network and hope that God will bless them with Power.:lol:

[The Atheist]

I believe you are correct, Atheist: I notice that when people dabble in amoral turf; they blame God if they are caught. They look to visions and dreams to tell them the numbers of the lotto. And something that has always perplexed me is that I've noticed of all my patients, the ones who fear death the most are those who seem to have the greatest faith in God. I believe it is because fundamentalist religion focuses so much on punishment.

Yep, that's the trouble with demanding perfection, very few of us ever achieve it.

;)


Just a note: I remember a story I read some time ago about one of our great American Politicians who, when young, had some difficult getting into the Senate. So he began to court a young woman from a poorer neighborhood whose family had a lot of social and political connections through her church...
Our poor, perhaps go to church, in the hope that God will bless them with riches and everlasting life. Our wealthy go to church to network and hope that God will bless them with Power.:lol:

Bingo!

I find the idea of rich people going to church quite amusing; the christians' boss fella was pretty specific about money and heaven.

[soundofmusic]

Yep, that's the trouble with demanding perfection, very few of us ever achieve it.
Bingo!

I find the idea of rich people going to church quite amusing; the christians' boss fella was pretty specific about money and heaven.

I suppose the perfection thing always had me in a quandry also; who does one use as an example. I was raised a fundamentalist Christian (I now have a sort of amalgamation of eastern and western beliefs); but the bible stories do not make Jesus a perfect son: he backtalks his mother, he becomes angry and tears apart a church...what is perfection for a mortal?

Yes, the old easier for something...than a rich man to get into heaven. I'm still wondering why men who please God are blessed with great wealth and winches; only to have to give them away to get into the kingdom of god. Of course, In Jobs case, he had a little help... It's a good thing God talked to people in those days; I would have been totally confused: I do right, I get money, family, wealth...I continue to do right; bang, a house falls on my family, I get poor, everyone makes fun of me and I have an awful disease...bang, I do right, I'm blessed with money and family again.

[cidodeo]

They are really very cool, very wonderful :flare:
__________________
Financement simulation de credit immobilier de France (http://simulationdecreditimmobilier.org), Courtier simulation de credit immobilier (http://simulationdecreditimmobilier.org/simulation-credit-immobilier/), Calcul pret et taux credit immobilier (http://simulationdecreditimmobilier.org)

[isidro]

First off, I have been both poor and also wealthy and in truth have always had an interest in religion to some extent. I did not wish religion to try to be good at first, and I did not believe in God because of a sunday school lesson. I first believed in God because I saw so much evil and knew there had to be a devil of some kind and as a logical, rational person, had to conjecture therefore that there was a counterbalance to the devil I had no doubt existed.

If a person focuses on money and power than yes, one can employ religion to gain it. An uncle of mine gave some money from the poker tables to my mom telling her to give it to the church so that God would bless him and he would win more poker games. But if a person has any soul at all, has any emotion or depth, there is inveriably another reason. There has to be the idea that this is not everything to life - eating and drinking and living in the moment. Human beings and their capabilities of feeling and reasoning are so dynamic and complex that I cannot imagine any person living simply for their own pleasure, right or wrong, doffing the ideals of personal progression et cetera can be entirely and thoroughly fulfilled.

[sadparadise]

I think Dawkins book, or books for that matter are fantastic. I also enjoyed Christopher Hitchens book God is not Great. I suggest this book to anyone who enjoyed the God Delusion. Both books are very informative. Though Dawkins does seem to me to have a slight religious tone when speaking of his Atheism.
I think that most people tend to gravitate towards a religion in times of great turmoil or trauma. But I did watch a program on Dawkins.net that suggested that some humans may have a built in propensity for religion. I am an agnostic. I believe that Religions may have run their course. In saying that, I believe that we should take the most productive, non harmful practices from all walks of life and apply them for the betterment of all humanity. Wouldn't it be nice if Countries, Scientists, Religious leaders, and Ceo's from large Corporations could talk on equal ground for the good of the Human race.

[blazeofglory]

Belief in God is rooted in many ideas. First and foremost is man becomes amazed at everything he sees in this universe, the vastness of this cosmos and man’s finite existence. Man is capable of imagining things and this power has helped him to raise himself a little above animals. Man’s capacity for thinking worries him. Man is so ambitious and he has projected great ideas and his periphery goes far and far. This capacity for thinking ha enabled man to think about God. Man propels his existence thru God and he simply defies the realities that get him bound to his environment.

[mal4mac]

I first believed in God because I saw so much evil and knew there had to be a devil of some kind.


Why? I just see humans acting badly...


But if a person has any soul at all, has any emotion or depth, there is inveriably another reason. There has to be the idea that this is not everything to life - eating and drinking and living in the moment. Human beings and their capabilities of feeling and reasoning are so dynamic and complex that I cannot imagine any person living simply for their own pleasure, right or wrong, doffing the ideals of personal progression et cetera can be entirely and thoroughly fulfilled.

There are obviously other pleasures than eating & drinking, like reading or spouting off in newsgroups. If you choose to, say, read Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics are you not still pursuing pleasure? It might be called a 'higher pleasure', but isn't it just another pleasure? Same goes for church going... although that often turns out to be not a pleasure in any way. Read a book instead...

[isidro]

If one does not understand or accept the concept of a spiritual world or anything spiritual at all existing, I must beg them to do one thing before we continue this discussion. There is something called T'ai Chi. It is an exercise from the Orient that exercises the body and and in doing so creates a powerful luminosity around the body that is not physical or emotional. It is something that any human being can feel, use, employ to their advantage etc and is called the chi, or the soul. It is a force emanating from the human being that cannot be described in any other way but spiritual and its effects are real and can be measured and seen. Explain that to me without employing spirituality and maintaining the stand that there is nothing in this world that science and matter of fact argument cannot answer and we'll continue this discussion. But since many people are self proclaimed spiritual novices I must insist they do their homework first so we can actually have a strong, intelligent conversation on the subject.

[The Atheist]

If one does not understand or accept the concept of a spiritual world or anything spiritual at all existing, I must beg them to do one thing before we continue this discussion. There is something called T'ai Chi. It is an exercise from the Orient that exercises the body and and in doing so creates a powerful luminosity around the body that is not physical or emotional. It is something that any human being can feel, use, employ to their advantage etc and is called the chi, or the soul. It is a force emanating from the human being that cannot be described in any other way but spiritual and its effects are real and can be measured and seen. Explain that to me without employing spirituality and maintaining the stand that there is nothing in this world that science and matter of fact argument cannot answer and we'll continue this discussion. But since many people are self proclaimed spiritual novices I must insist they do their homework first so we can actually have a strong, intelligent conversation on the subject.

Oh go on then, I'll play.

The bolded bit.

I'll bet you a week's worth of jocky's posts in The Blokes' Thread to a week with Barbara Cartland that there is no effect from Tai Chi which is either:

A Measurable
B Visible

To use your own words, I shall take up the cudgels (Orwell hated that phrase, I love it!) and say:

There is nothing in this world that science and matter of fact argument cannot answer.

(And there's especially nothing in Tai Chi that they can't answer.)

I take an awful lot of convincing. My own mother had to do a DNA test when I was six to satisfy me that I was really related to my brothers.

My own father had to show me the shrapnel they removed from behind his huge scar when I was nine because I just could not believe an anecdotal story on human evidence alone! I am addicted to proof!

Yet nowadays, I think I've looked enough corners to stand by my extra bold, bolded assertion above. I honestly think the enormous weight of all evidence says that there is nothing we cannot answer.

Bring on the troops!

I can see them now, gathering their agnostic logic, so this could even be quite fun.

:D

[isidro]

I only accept your answer if you do it with an open mind. I refuse to intellectually battle the unarmed and indolent.

[The Atheist]

I only accept your answer if you do it with an open mind. I refuse to intellectually battle the unarmed and indolent.

No, you've taken it the wrong way - I meant it as a friendly challenge to look at the evidence.

Show me some.

I need to know what claims are being made before I can look at them. I've certainly looked at claims made on tai chi's behalf before, but it doesn't mean yours will be the same ones.

As I always say, I have two eyes open all the time, and while I think that all questions will one day be answered by science, I'm not pig-headed about it. The point I was making is that after 35 years of looking into claims about non-material things, I haven't found a single one with any validity, so claims will need to be open to pretty intense scrutiny.

You play first by telling me what they are.

:)

[blazeofglory]

In essence our strong roots in religious faiths grew out of the ideas injected into our vulnerable minds when we were incapable of discriminating things, particularity during our infancy. Or else we would not have been so much deeply rooted in religious ideas.

[soundofmusic]

I'll bet you a week's worth of jocky's posts in The Blokes' Thread to a week with Barbara Cartland that there is no effect from Tai Chi which is either:

I take an awful lot of convincing. My own mother had to do a DNA test when I was six to satisfy me that I was really related to my brothers.

My own father had to show me the shrapnel they removed from behind his huge scar when I was nine because I just could not believe an anecdotal story on human evidence alone! I am addicted to proof!


:D

:lol: Wow, were they doing DNA THAT LONG AGO:lol:

:goof: No wonder the English are so tough; in America, if shrapnel can be reached, without too much damage, our doctors do it...I guess that's why the Americans wait until the last hour to come into Britains wars, Aye Atheist, we know how tough your men are, so we just come in to take pictures and claim to have won the war for you:lol:

Don't you think you should have offered Isidro a better deal; I don't think she wants to spend the week with Barbara Cartland or sit by you while you do 40 posts for Jocky while he's out saving the UK:banana::banana:

[blazeofglory]

One of the reasons could be it started with fear and hope