John Bunyon's Pilgirm's Progress

[isidro]

Am I the only one on this forum who thinks this is a highly important work?

Surely it is one of the greatest allegories in the history of the English language and one of the most impressive and meaningful translations of Christian doctrine into a more palatable story.

Anyone else read this thing?

[jocky]

Am I the only one on this forum who thinks this is a highly important work?

Surely it is one of the greatest allegories in the history of the English language and one of the most impressive and meaningful translations of Christian doctrine into a more palatable story.

Anyone else read this thing?

Unfortunately yes, Christian and his struggles through the slough of despond drove me nuts. Bunyan and Bedford gaol were well suited and if I had been the warden I would have thrown away the keys and his quill. :)

[Lulim]

Yes, I read it. True, it is a little lofty at times, but otherwise I like it and I agree that it is an important work. I believe, Bunyan actually wrote it in prison, didn't he?

[Dark Muse]

I read an excert of it in an anthology I have. I cannot remember the details of it, as it was pretty dense, and a while since I read it, but I remember thinking the writing was interesting.

[isidro]

Lulim and Dark Muse, you are both invited to my cool people party this weekend....

Jocky, I'm going to walk into the next room and bawl uncontrollably now. ;) It's okay, I realize you are just one of those stuck in the slough. I'll forgive ya! :)

It is a bit lofty perhaps, but do you consider it more so than Shakespeare, that all of us more or less get? It is among other things one of the most critical works that influenced secular literature in America and laid template for scores of teaching tools we have used both in religious and secular areas. Any answers to that scale of importance, Jocky, my friend?

[jocky]

Lulim and Dark Muse, you are both invited to my cool people party this weekend....

Jocky, I'm going to walk into the next room and bawl uncontrollably now. ;) It's okay, I realize you are just one of those stuck in the slough. I'll forgive ya! :)

It is a bit lofty perhaps, but do you consider it more so than Shakespeare, that all of us more or less get? It is among other things one of the most critical works that influenced secular literature in America and laid template for scores of teaching tools we have used both in religious and secular areas. Any answers to that scale of importance, Jocky, my friend?

Thanks for forgiving me I dont deserve it. ( slyly hoping for an invite to the cool party ). There is no doubting the huge influence that Bunyan had, note the use of the past tense, in Britain and the States. From a Christian perspective it is a hugely important work. However, in a purely literary sense it is, in my opinion, boring. A comparison between this and Hamlet may be fruitful, but would take all night. Hamlet and Christian both face seemingly insurmountable obstacles and both overcome them in different ways. Shakespeare's use of language and literary device i.e the ghost, is to me more satisfying than Bunyan's plodding allegory. Did I pass? :)

[Modest Proposal]

It is a little funny that people are asking if it is important and answering yes or no. Though literature has the quality of being almost infinately subjective a work's importance--in so far as it is influential--to the cannon and to history may be its most objective aspect. That being said, I have never seen a list, article or critical work come CLOSE to questioning the works seminal status in the cannon. I think there is no debate as to whether it is important.

Now, its quality and/or relevance in the postmodern era is certainly an interesting issue. Allegory, in an age favoring the individual over "meanings" and "moral lessons", is already in a tenuous position with the topical majority. Similarly, a work whose primary concern is evangelic Christianity is out of vogue based if nothing else on the backlash against oppresive puritanism--whether real or construed--. Finally, the work being from a Anglo Saxon male and not concerning itself with the issues of race, class, gender is ultimately engaged in an uphill battle for representation, being seen as part of the hegemony and not the dissenting element.

So, though the work's importance is unquestionable, as to whether it is still studied for its unquestionably important merits or equally pervasive flaws is difficult to say. From what I have seen the highest levels of scholarship revere the works qualities for its time, and use also its time to justify--somewhat--its flaws. The mass of English departments, I believe, apply a clumbsy, anachronistic ethical measuring stick to the work and find it lacking. I think this type of view is silly, unfruitful and ultimately untenable but nonetheless exciting and endowing of a messianic pride. Unfortunately, these allures overshadow the flaws and make this type of retroactive-progressivism very popular.

[jocky]

It is a little funny that people are asking if it is important and answering yes or no. Though literature has the quality of being almost infinately subjective a work's importance--in so far as it is influential--to the cannon and to history may be its most objective aspect. That being said, I have never seen a list, article or critical work come CLOSE to questioning the works seminal status in the cannon. I think there is no debate as to whether it is important.

Now, its quality and/or relevance in the postmodern era is certainly an interesting issue. Allegory, in an age favoring the individual over "meanings" and "moral lessons", is already in a tenuous position with the topical majority. Similarly, a work whose primary concern is evangelic Christianity is out of vogue based if nothing else on the backlash against oppresive puritanism--whether real or construed--. Finally, the work being from a Anglo Saxon male and not concerning itself with the issues of race, class, gender is ultimately engaged in an uphill battle for representation, being seen as part of the hegemony and not the dissenting element.

So, though the work's importance is unquestionable, as to whether it is still studied for its unquestionably important merits or equally pervasive flaws is difficult to say. From what I have seen the highest levels of scholarship revere the works qualities for its time, and use also its time to justify--somewhat--its flaws. The mass of English departments, I believe, apply a clumbsy, anachronistic ethical measuring stick to the work and find it lacking. I think this type of view is silly, unfruitful and ultimately untenable but nonetheless exciting and endowing of a messianic pride. Unfortunately, these allures overshadow the flaws and make this type of retroactive-progressivism very popular.

:lol: Your use of the English language is unsurpassable, ' retroactive-progressivism' I am seriously impressed. Let me try to simplify things here, did you enjoy the read or not? Is Bunyan up there with the literary giants or not? You either liked it or not. My view is not.

[Modest Proposal]

:lol: Your use of the English language is unsurpassable, ' retroactive-progressivism' I am seriously impressed. Let me try to simplify things here, did you enjoy the read or not? Is Bunyan up there with the literary giants or not? You either liked it or not. My view is not.

I always thought it was strange how much license we allow writers in the past--making up phrases, even words--. Today it seems like we expect people to only use a set of accepted colloquialisms. Don't you think its great that Shakespeare used phrases like "that something settled matter," as if it where perfectly common? I would like to write and speak correctly by the dictates of language's laws, not by an arbitrarily approved modern lexicon.

I don't know why you are acting as if I didn't get the question, I answered it to the best of my knowledge. The question was "Am I the only one on this forum who thinks this is a highly important work?" I think everyone agrees it is important, but I thought it was interesting, the reasons why it is rarely taught anymore.

You are asking something completely different in whether I thought it was good or enjoyable. Yes, actually, I enjoyed many things about it, though I agree with you that in the last several hundred years popular taste--mine included--tend toward a less symbolic story. Though its beautiful phrases have stuck out in my mind such as, "a multitude of nothings" which I used for a short story title.

I am sorry if I took the thread in a direction you had not intended it, but I am used to digging in a little deeper than "you either liked it or not." I came to this site because I wanted another place to exchange ideas, not just flaunt my opinion. I always thought that this sort of broadcasting of personal feelings/opinions, slightly superficial and almost masturbatory. You don't know me and I can't believe my opinion on whether I "liked it or not" really matters to you unless you are just trying to validate something you feel. However, I would like to think that people exchanging ideas and thoughts might be worthwhile.

Again, sorry if I hijacked the thread or offended anyone, I really wasn't meaning to be combative. But you don't need to mock me or "simplify things." And you are absolutely right that I try and be a little experimental with language/syntax, but bear with me, I'm still young.

[bluosean]

Please don't be offended. I don't think jocky meant to be demeaning.

I want to read this book but havent got to it yet.

[isidro]

Thank you Modest Proposal for your exceptionally well phrased thoughts. I love to hear things like this. Thank you also to Bluosean. I also love peacemakers. Jocky, you are invited but after that whole "harem" comment in the other thread I'm going to have to be weary of you and keep my distance. :)

I think surely we build upon the more archaic authors and that may be why we are so lenient with them and their manners. Is it relevant now? Well, history has made us who we are and religious pedagogy (Teaching) has always paved the way for secular pedagogy. The question may not be "is it the type of teaching we need right now?' but perhaps "is it important to us as our historical and literary roots?" to which question I must answer an absolute "yes." There is a fantastic book dealing exactly with this idea and devotes nearly one fourth of the book in discussing Pilgrim's Progress in this context. It is called The Word and Its Witness: The Spiritualization of American Realism. And Jocky, I know the author personally and he though he is a few thousand miles away his handsome self is quite easily invited to any party of mine. Look out for some stiff competition! ;)

[jocky]

And Jocky, I know the author personally

You mean you and Bunyan are contemporaries, well I am definitely not coming to your party your way to old for me. Dont you just love deliberate textual misinterpretation? :lol:

[isidro]

Yep, that's right. You know me and ol' Bunyon! Geez!

Methinks that is you getting intimidated by Rutger University's Dr Greg Jackson and running the opposite direction. Don't worry - you are in good company, little boy!

I'm probably just too cool for you, maybe! ;) I'm a bit younger than I probably seem.

[jocky]

Again, sorry if I hijacked the thread or offended anyone, I really wasn't meaning to be combative. But you don't need to mock me or "simplify things." And you are absolutely right that I try and be a little experimental with language/syntax, but bear with me, I'm still young.

No, it is me who should apologise, I can be a bit abrasive and I hope I have not put you off the forum. Just put it down to Jocky being Jocky. Sorry.


Yep, that's right. You know me and ol' Bunyon! Geez!

Methinks that is you getting intimidated by Rutger University's Dr Greg Jackson and running the opposite direction. Don't worry - you are in good company, little boy!

I'm probably just too cool for you, maybe! ;) I'm a bit younger than I probably seem.

This is turning into a miserable night, rejection, apologies and competition. Humbug, I am going to my bed with a cup of hot milk and a couple of aspirin. I still think Bunyan is boring and Dr Jackson is getting on my nerves, name dropper. Good night from little boy. :(

[isidro]

Okay, you just won me over with that one. :) Quite amusing.

[Scheherazade]

Am I the only one on this forum who thinks this is a highly important work?

Surely it is one of the greatest allegories in the history of the English language and one of the most impressive and meaningful translations of Christian doctrine into a more palatable story. So, you agree that the Christian doctrine needed to be turned into a "more palatable story"?

:p

Together with Everyman, this one left an invaluable impression on us... One that of giggle and snicker. Somehow, we found them very amusing.

[isidro]

Endearing perhaps. The stories of Christian and Everyman proves touching and soul wrenching, if one sees them in that light, because they do in fact apply to Every Man. Duh.

As I have taught religion for over 10 years now in one form or other, yes, I think that the standards are rigid though necessary and it helps to see a story in which other people fall but have the tenacity and faith to pick themselves up and keep going. We feed on each others' experiences and words, do we not? Christianity isn't easy to live by the actual doctrine and this was written in fact to teach young children. It is argued that it also inspired Little Women and that the book mentioned given to the sisters was not the New Testament but Bunyon's work. We all have our personal pilgrimages in life and this was held up as an example, not perfect like Christ but fallable like us which I think allows us to accept our mistakes without anger, resentment, or despair.