How open minded are we?

[isidro]

I run across people, usually professors or professor wannabes that proclaim that they are absolutely open minded about life and therefore have no need to consider religion.

However, if we ignore a certain manner of thinking or persuasion based upon a negative reputation it has acquired for being narrow minded and oppressive, are we really open minded? Or are we being narrow minded in refusing to consider it?

[Gladys]

Yes. In some circles, religion today has a reputation as bad as communism during Eugene McCarthy's purges in 1950's America.

[Annamariah]

The open-minded people of Finland at least are absolutely horrified to hear that someone is religious, doesn't drink alcohol or doesn't believe in pre-marital sex, even if that someone never said they think it's something everyone should be or do. There's a lot of things one can't be or do without upsetting all those open-minded people :p

[DanielBenoit]

You have a point, anybody can be closed minded.

For me at least, I try not to become attached to any religious/philosophical system and be a silent observer. It's not a question of open-mindedness, it's a question of what works for you. Ideas of true or false seem so futile, and thus I accept all religions of the world in a non-participatory way.

[Scheherazade]

I consider myself very open minded...

As long as my belief system is not challenged.

[Virgil]

I run across people, usually professors or professor wannabes that proclaim that they are absolutely open minded about life and therefore have no need to consider religion.

However, if we ignore a certain manner of thinking or persuasion based upon a negative reputation it has acquired for being narrow minded and oppressive, are we really open minded? Or are we being narrow minded in refusing to consider it?

Open minded is in the eye of the beholder. There are things to be open minded about and things not to be open minded. I would hope that no one is open minded about slavery or racism or pedophilia.

There many things that I am not open minded on and proud of it.


The open-minded people of Finland at least are absolutely horrified to hear that someone is religious, doesn't drink alcohol or doesn't believe in pre-marital sex, even if that someone never said they think it's something everyone should be or do. There's a lot of things one can't be or do without upsetting all those open-minded people :p

Hahaha! Kudos for that! Four stars for you my friend. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Flag_of_four_star_general_of_Italy.svg/800px-Flag_of_four_star_general_of_Italy.svg.png

[Maryd.]

I wish I was as open minded as I could be. Sometimes I think I am and then some unkind friend tells me otherwise. So maybe I'm not.

[Gladys]

I wonder if open minded for one is close minded for another - all relative? The golden rule seems more tangible.

[Maryd.]

I wonder if open minded for one is close minded for another - all relative? The golden rule seems more tangible.

here, here...

[isidro]

I am proud of you, Virgil! Bravo! And the rest of you are awesome! I appreicate all this commentary. And the silent observer I think is in some manner the epitome of open mindedness.

Scheherazade and Annamaria, you made me burst out laughing!

[Eryk]

Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openness_to_experience)
Openness to experience is one of five major domains of personality discovered by psychologists. Openness involves active imagination, aesthetic sensitivity, attentiveness to inner feelings, preference for variety, and intellectual curiosity.

People who are open to experience are no different in mental health from people who are closed to experience. There is no relationship between openness and neuroticism, or any other measure of psychological wellbeing. Being open and closed to experience are simply two different ways of relating to the world.

The NEO PI-R personality test measures six facets or elements of openness to experience:

1. Fantasy - the tendency toward a vivid imagination and fantasy life.
2. Aesthetics - the tendency to appreciate art, music, and poetry.
3. Feelings - being receptive to inner emotional states and valuing emotional experience.
4. Actions - the inclination to try new activities, visit new places, and try new foods.
5. Ideas - the tendency to be intellectually curious and open to new ideas.
6. Values - the readiness to re-examine traditional social, religious, and political values.
Number 4 stands out for me. I have no desire for any of those things. If "new activities" means new books and movies and music, yes, but I'm not looking for new kinds of activities.

[JBI]

Anyone who can commit to anything, it would seem, closes his mind - to be completely open minded, one must, ultimately, not think of anything categorically - in truth, one must break from all asumptions of discourse - in short, be a nihilist, without considering themself nihilistic.

Of course, the bigger things we decide on in life are really determining our open mindedness - nobody can be truly open minded, but to be in an aporia over religion, versus a definite belief in one thing over another is a good start - same with politics, and other modes of thought.

Take for instance Racism, that in itself is its own discourse, with its own rules, and own qualifications - one must assume and consider things within a racist mentality, and must conform to the categories of "being racist" - to be open minded then, you must really break with as many discourses as possible, or at least recognize them as being discourses, and therefore, mere bits of conversation.

As for religion, I don't think any "true" believer is open minded - to be that committed to one discursive mode of thought seems to me to be closed minded.

[isidro]

I really must wonder why Eryk is not interested in new activities. Any particular reason?

JBI, I agree to a certain extent except I believe that what you describe about being non committal is the first step in several, the next being that after you have opened your mind to just about everything, the next step in cultivating maturity is to do as Virgil described. After listening to all sides, decide then by logic and reason and your own conscience what proves real and substantial for yourself.

As a society we applaud open mindedness in the extreme, but is that what human beings entirely should be? If we commit to nothing, can we have personal stability in life? And what is more important to our happiness and the happiness of those around us - proving to the last detail that we are open minded, or standing up for what we believe in?

Thoughts?

[Eryk]

I really must wonder why Eryk is not interested in new activities. Any particular reason? I've just always been this way.

[feignfeign]

i try to be respectful to all beliefs and life styles... but as i get older, i find it harder and harder to be respectful to Christians. Of course i know not all christians are like this, but so many christians i have met are disrespectful of my beliefs and think of me as a lesser from the get go- i am destined for hell after all.

i am trying to stay steady and veer away from becoming some kind of christian hater... but ITS HARDDDD

[isidro]

Oh my dearest Feignfeign, I'm so sorry. You are right in that Christians have a history of enforcing their ideas at the end of a sword - the Crusades, the Inquisitions etc, and my heart grieves that people have denied exactly the virtues they profess to believe and treated you in such a horrible manner.

Do me a massive favor, will ya, and blame the people, not the doctrine. I am technically Christian but read the Tao Te Ching, the Popul Vuh, and wear a star of David. I am actually Mormon, and we are a very different kind of Christian, one of the key facets of which is that we don't (in doctrine, hopefully in society) condemn you to hell for thinking for yourself. You actually are not allowed to join unless you independently have a testimony of the doctrine, and not looked down on if you don't join.

I really do appreciate your trying to keep an open mind and I hope you find a philosophy that suits you and is true to your personal belief system.

[JBI]

Oh my dearest Feignfeign, I'm so sorry. You are right in that Christians have a history of enforcing their ideas at the end of a sword - the Crusades, the Inquisitions etc, and my heart grieves that people have denied exactly the virtues they profess to believe and treated you in such a horrible manner.

Do me a massive favor, will ya, and blame the people, not the doctrine. I am technically Christian but read the Tao Te Ching, the Popul Vuh, and wear a star of David. I am actually Mormon, and we are a very different kind of Christian, one of the key facets of which is that we don't (in doctrine, hopefully in society) condemn you to hell for thinking for yourself. You actually are not allowed to join unless you independently have a testimony of the doctrine, and not looked down on if you don't join.

I really do appreciate your trying to keep an open mind and I hope you find a philosophy that suits you and is true to your personal belief system.

Why reach back so far into the past - in the present there are Christians everywhere in the world trying to convert people by offering them the basic necessities for life that should, according to "Christian morality" be offered freely to everyone. But I think it gets better - one is offered salvation and sainthood from such practices. That annoying guy on TV who advertises for Christian Youth whatever is made into a hero for running such a "righteous organization."

[isidro]

:) Hey, JBI - Mormons give for free without expecting any kind of conversion. You are making me terribly proud of myself by that comment. :)

Although, we have to admit that Christians, while extremely prevalent in our own hemisphere, are not the only ones in the world guilty of this kind of thing and not the worst either. I understand entirely the frustration it excites but people of all backgrounds, religious or not can be and often are hypocritical. If we condemn the Christians we have to condemn several other groups as well, no?

And I just have to make the point that although they can be terribly annoying, I agree, an annoying manner does not necessarily mean that the doctrine they tote, whether they live by it or not, is wrong. Someone can be built upon a true and solid foundation and be a terribly annoying person. Again, we need to separate the people and the fundamental philosophy. The doctrine may be right and the person imperfect in obedience. No?

[Jozanny]

I am less open minded as I age because I am right most of the time, and have the confidence and discrimination of my intelligence. I do not like American Evangelican Christianity, as a brand, but I am not too fond of Islamic honor killers either, and liberal Judaism, though it is more tolerant of multi-culturalism as a general rule, it too has its old guard agenda. On the other hand, if I have learned anything in the time I have been posting here, it is that I increasingly find atheistic advocacy distasteful.

So I can dispense with ideologies of any make and model. I don't mind posting about things: films, books, literary periods, writing, the utter failure of disability activism to make itself analogous to the civil rights movement of the King era--so on, so forth--but as some regulars may have noticed, I bump heads less and less with these abstract topic debates.

If you impress me enough, however, I may try to tap you for an article, which may or may not make me as annoying as a more hardened Jimmy Stewart in the near great newspaper film "Dial Northlight 777".

[Annamariah]

Hahaha! Kudos for that! Four stars for you my friend. :)

Thank you :D

I guess my open-mindedness depends on the definition. Does open-mindedness mean that one has to be ready to adopt new views very easily or does it simply mean that they can understand those other views without believing in them themselves?

I have clear opinions about many things and don't change my mind easily, unless I have a good reason for it. In that sense I guess I'm a rather close-minded person. But I can respect other people's views too, and like a good conversation about things we might not agree on. So what does that make me? :p

[Gladys]

Does open-mindedness mean that one has to be ready to adopt new views very easily or does it simply mean that they can understand those other views without believing in them themselves?

Can one really understand the views of others without believing in them?

An open-minded person is more like a rudderless ship drifting with the prevailing wind.

[JBI]

Thank you :D

I guess my open-mindedness depends on the definition. Does open-mindedness mean that one has to be ready to adopt new views very easily or does it simply mean that they can understand those other views without believing in them themselves?

I have clear opinions about many things and don't change my mind easily, unless I have a good reason for it. In that sense I guess I'm a rather close-minded person. But I can respect other people's views too, and like a good conversation about things we might not agree on. So what does that make me? :p

It's all logic - in order to have no opinions, one must break with all categories - as soon as anybody acts subjectively, they limit themselves. To really understand stuff, one must limit the range of their understanding to within the frame of a discipline. In that sense, scientific knowledge allows people to understand the specifics, but ultimately reduces the range of belief available to the person.

My taste in literature, ultimately, if I value texts, is limited - in order to have the "most open minded" notions, I must forgo all judgment, and categorization.

Categorizing allows us to understand the particulars, but ultimately, by understanding things, we limit their range of possibilities within one frame - so if we decide to say that one religion is true, then ultimately, we have created a mindset that rejects thought that is incompatible as false - if we side with Catholicism, then we imply that Judaism is false by necessity. If we are atheist, than ultimately, we see all religions as false, in the sense that we cannot believe "god did this, and god did that".

If we believe democracy is good, then ultimately, we are limiting our perception on authoritarianism. If we say communism is good, then we limit our open mindedness toward capitalism.

When it comes down to it, it's better to just hear a lot of sides, and make one's mind up, in pursuit of understanding particulars. "open-mindedness" as a theory is simply nihilistic - it's an infinite aporia.

But culturally, we come from Aristotelian thought which dictates that we assign categories to understand things - we close our possibilities for the sake of deepening our understanding on things.

[Annamariah]

Can one really understand the views of others without believing in them?
I guess that depends of the definition of "understanding" :p But I think I can understand why someone has different opionions and beliefs than I do (I mean I can often see the reasoning behind their thoughts) even if I don't share that opinion or belief. Not always, of course, but often.

[isidro]

Okay, here's another related question then.

Does being openminded and being true to onesself necessarily contradict?

[Gladys]

...(I mean I can often see the reasoning behind their thoughts)...

To quote the Apostle Paul, 'For now we see through a glass, darkly...'

[isidro]

Well put, Gladys.

[The Atheist]

Seems to me there's a bit of confusion between "open-minded" and gullible.

To me, having an open mind is weighing up the evidence without any pre-conceived ideas, which is what I try to do with everything.

Carl Sagan once said "We must keep our minds open, but not so far open our brains fall out."

Many people seem to think "open-minded" means not looking for the evidence but merely accepting a position on the advice of others. Which is just silly.



Open minded is in the eye of the beholder. There are things to be open minded about and things not to be open minded. I would hope that no one is open minded about slavery or racism or pedophilia.

As above, I think one can be open-minded about those subjects, but quickly come to the conclusion that they're wrong. It doesn't make you closed-minded, just sensible.

[prendrelemick]

An open-minded person is more like a rudderless ship drifting with the prevailing wind.


I am beginning to think there is truth in this. I would like to think I am open minded, but suspect I am indecisive and scared of commitment.

[Scheherazade]

Can one really understand the views of others without believing in them? Why not? There is always the possibility that one has stopped believing in them because they have come to understand them only too well.
Seems to me there's a bit of confusion between "open-minded" and gullible.Oh, OK. Then, I am mostly gullible.
To me, having an open mind is weighing up the evidence without any pre-conceived ideas, which is what I try to do with everything.Agreed. However, it is "easy said than done" at times, I find. One's feelings might cloud the picture.

However, that might be because I am only a woman with a lil' brain in me lil' 'ead.

[papayahed]

To me, having an open mind is weighing up the evidence without any pre-conceived ideas, which is what I try to do with everything.


How do you not have preconcieved ideas? None of us live in a vacuum.

I think the confusion comes in when we don't recognize the difference between an opinion and open-mindedness. I have opinions about a lot of things on a very superficial level I don't like fish. To be open minded do I have to try every single type of fish out there before I can make that statement? If that's the case how can I have an opinion about anything?

[Annamariah]

I think the confusion comes in when we don't recognize the difference between an opinion and open-mindedness. I have opinions about a lot of things on a very superficial level I don't like fish. To be open minded do I have to try every single type of fish out there before I can make that statement? If that's the case how can I have an opinion about anything?
What if you say you don't like fish, but are ready to try a fish you've never tasted before if someone asked you to? What would that make you? :D

[isidro]

Vacuum - good point papayahed.

[papayahed]

What if you say you don't like fish, but are ready to try a fish you've never tasted before if someone asked you to? What would that make you? :D

It really depends. Fish, if I'd never had it before I would probably try it. However if it was that puffer fish that was being sold on a street corner in Omaha probably not. Does avoiding potential illness make me close minded? We have a brain to guide us why not use it.

Would you do something just because somone asked you? I don't think it's all or nothing. I don't have to engage in a same sex marriage to know I don't care if someone else does it, nor do I need to try herion to determine if I am willing to accept the risks.

[Annamariah]

I agree. Common sense should always be used.

[The Comedian]

I don't know about you all, but I always feel like I'm at my open-minded best when I'm criticizing others for not being as open-minded as me. (joke :lol:)

[Scheherazade]

How do you not have preconcieved ideas? None of us live in a vacuum. My understanding of The Atheist's comment was that yes, we do have pre-conceived ideas, but we should try to consider other possibilities as well without letting those pre-conceived ideas interfere.

Eg, in the case of fish... One can refuse to try any fish (even the new ones) based on the pre-conceived idea that they do not like fish. Or they decide to give a new kind of fish a try.

[Maryd.]

I don't know about you all, but I always feel like I'm at my open-minded best when I'm criticizing others for not being as open-minded as me. (joke :lol:)

So farrrnyy

[caddy_caddy]

I run across people, usually professors or professor wannabes that proclaim that they are absolutely open minded about life
it seems professors all around the world are the same;)
To me , having an open mind means having , always, enough rooms in your brain for new visitors without prejudices or preconceptions . And to allow these new visiters to take place of another one of your residents if they proove to be better of them.

[The Atheist]

However, that might be because I am only a woman with a lil' brain in me lil' 'ead.

Well, there;s your answer!


How do you not have preconcieved ideas? None of us live in a vacuum.

As Scher noted, you just put them away and use critical analysis to decide.

I had an excellent example this morning when a friend sent me an e mail claiming a link between underarm deodorant and breast cancer.

I'd never heard this one before, but it turns out to be an old theory. My initial thought was "Wow, that makes some sense", having regard to breast cancer incidence increases since 1950 and the fact that beasts are in fact quite close to armits. (In most cases! ;) )

Even better, there has been very little proper scientific enquiry into the subject, so information was sparse. On some fairly deep analysis, it turns out that the premsie is extreme;y unlikely. We can't prove that no link exists, but it appears that it isn't true, so we can ignore it while keeping an open mind as to new evidence.

[blazeofglory]

In fact all of us kind of are not open minded and we live with lots of prejudices.

[Babbalanja]

I run across people, usually professors or professor wannabes that proclaim that they are absolutely open minded about life and therefore have no need to consider religion.

However, if we ignore a certain manner of thinking or persuasion based upon a negative reputation it has acquired for being narrow minded and oppressive, are we really open minded? Or are we being narrow minded in refusing to consider it?
We seem to be talking about two different things here. People can be open-minded whether they're religious or not. However, religion itself doesn't promote open-mindedness. Faith, by definition, is believing something without regard to evidence. Such a belief can't be tested or refuted, and it isn't meant to be.

I think we all believe things we can't necessarily prove. But only religious believers consider credulity a virtue. And believing things even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is no virtue.

[Scheherazade]

The OP:
I run across people, usually professors or professor wannabes that proclaim that they are absolutely open minded about life and therefore have no need to consider religion.

However, if we ignore a certain manner of thinking or persuasion based upon a negative reputation it has acquired for being narrow minded and oppressive, are we really open minded? Or are we being narrow minded in refusing to consider it?

[ClaesGefvenberg]

There's a lot of things one can't be or do without upsetting all those open-minded people :p:smilielol5: Well done, Annamariah!


Open minded is in the eye of the beholder. There are things to be open minded about and things not to be open minded.Yes, I think you hit it right on the button there.


I consider myself very open minded...

As long as my belief system is not challenged.:smilielol5: Well done, Sher!


i try to be respectful to all beliefs and life styles... but as i get older, i find it harder and harder to be respectful to Christians.That is interesting... I find it easier, probably because I no longer feel that I need to win every discussion or argument (Oh, yes, I think I may have been a handful in my younger days :blush:).


i am destined for hell after all.You too, eh? I had this information handed to me by a bloke handing out leaflets downtown the other day. It would seem that he took exception to the fact that I questioned the logic of some of his reasoning :ihih: ).


i am trying to stay steady and veer away from becoming some kind of christian hater... but ITS HARDDDDHate is overrated: It consumes too much energy... :chillpill:


But I can respect other people's views too, and like a good conversation about things we might not agree on. So what does that make me? :pOpen minded, I guess...


Can one really understand the views of others without believing in them? I would like to think so. At the very least I would interpret an honest attempt to do so as openmindedness.


To me, having an open mind is weighing up the evidence without any pre-conceived ideas, which is what I try to do with everything.
----
I think one can be open-minded about those subjects, but quickly come to the conclusion that they're wrong. It doesn't make you closed-minded, just sensible.I think that is a very sensible outlook.


I agree. Common sense should always be used.Yes... The problem is that common sense is not all that common.

Great discussion, everyone :thumbsup:

/Claes

[Serena03]

A mind as open as the sky is indeed worthy of having, but not so wide that the ground is no longer a boundary. The doors of perception need to be able to close and occasionally lock, this is why I could never fall into any sort of religion, it is actually more closed-minded, IMO, to limit all the possibilities in the universe to one answer: God. Not that I have totally shut out any possibility that a god could be true, but it is really a hypothesis no longer worth investigating as it does not really explain anything. The 'higher power' worth keeping an open mind for would be truth, which no god can top.

[Gladys]

it is actually more closed-minded, IMO, to limit all the possibilities in the universe to one answer: God ... The 'higher power' worth keeping an open mind for would be truth, which no god can top.

An interesting counter to such a dismissal of God is offered in Ibsen's first successful play Brand of 1865. Here the priest Brand, living in a humble manse under the overhang of a remote glacier subject to avalanches, willingly sacrifices his life to an omnipotent and unchangeable God, a God of love.

His God is fully defined by an unqualified, infinite and absolute love for the individual, a love without weakness or wavering. Brand is unreservedly a disciple and, for him, uncompromising love is the only possible truth. Human truths fade into insignificance alongside his timeless and limitless perspective. He is a man of action while other look on.

[Serena03]

An interesting counter to such a dismissal of God is offered in Ibsen's first successful play Brand of 1865. Here the priest Brand, living in a humble manse under the overhang of a remote glacier subject to avalanches, willingly sacrifices his life to an omnipotent and unchangeable God, a God of love.

His God is fully defined by an unqualified, infinite and absolute love for the individual, a love without weakness or wavering. Brand is unreservedly a disciple and, for him, uncompromising love is the only possible truth. Human truths fade into insignificance alongside his timeless and limitless perspective. He is a man of action while other look on.


Thank you, but the forces of love itself is a 'human truth' hardly considered insignificant and hardly able to fully comprehend rationally. How is this any different to state that love equals God when it is essentially just another easy explanation of a complicated concept? If a perceptions of God means for one to label or credit every mysterious force or nature with God, so be it, but it does not get us any closer to the truth. Love could equal truth, but it is still irrelevant to God. Since God cannot be universally justified, the principles of logic are becoming more and more ambiguous and may just cancel out due the overbearing alternating calculations. The mind itself, really the most powerful creator, creating concepts and sensations even it cannot comprehend. But all in all, if you need this sort of system for guidance in your life, I can respect that, it just has never been very satisfactory for me. My mind has never felt more caged.

[ClaesGefvenberg]

A mind as open as the sky is indeed worthy of having, but not so wide that the ground is no longer a boundary. Yes. In business peope often talk about the need to have a Birds Eye view, which too often ends up as a Bird Brains view (Both head and feet in the clouds). I prefer to go for the Giraffe's view, which provides you with a good overview, and still allows you to keep your feet firmly planted on Terra Firma.

I'm not saying that this is easy, but I try... :sosp:

/Claes

[Lynne50]

Haven't posted in a really long time, but thought I would add my two cents in to this discussion. I'm not sure why religion was brought into the mix since it's faith-based and cannot be proven. Christianity, however, bases it's religion on historical facts. Jesus was a real living person as well as many of the prophets in the Bible. However, we still have to take a leap of faith that what these prophets heard was the Word of God.
In regards to the initial points...how open-minded are we? I don't think anyone mentioned Fear, as being a motivating force.
It seems when we become fearful our open-mindedness takes a back seat. Just yesterday Oprah revisited a town in West Virginia after 23 years.In 1987, one of the men in town, who had AIDS, swam in the local pool and the mayor shut it down. Oprah's initial show, at the height of the AIDS epidemic, pitted the townspeople against this one young man. I'm sure many of those people in her audience at the time would have thought they were open-minded, but all logic and compassion went out the window. Of course, as one the women said today... Knowledge is a powerful thing. So what we may or may not be open-minded about today, may change in the future, when we get more facts. Being close-minded should not prevent people from being compassionate nor respectful of other people.

[Gladys]

I'm not sure why religion was brought into the mix since it's faith-based and cannot be proven. Christianity, however, bases it's religion on historical facts. Jesus was a real living person as well as many of the prophets in the Bible. However, we still have to take a leap of faith that what these prophets heard was the Word of God.

For the priest, Brand, his desperate leap of faith had nothing to do with "historical facts" and everything to do with the absurd prospect of salvation, in the moment, through uncompromising love. An open mind?


So what we may or may not be open-minded about today, may change in the future, when we get more facts. Being close-minded should not prevent people from being compassionate nor respectful of other people.

For Ibsen's Brand, being open-minded is to love and absolute love is unchangeable, dispelling all fear.

[altheskeptic]

I am close minded. It takes a lot to pry it open.

I just love to argue with someone as close minded as I am...as long as we disagree.