Beloved Discussion

[Dark Muse]

I know a few of us were looking forward to reading Beloved by Toni Morison for the October Group Read, but sense now it did not win, I still plan on reading it, so I thought I would open a thread for anyone else who is interested in reading and discussing this book.

Anyone can join and there are no deadlines for reading and discussing, just post a spoiler warning please if you have read to the end of the book.

[Dark Muse]

I just started reading this book, and the beginning of it I found a bit difficult to follow. It seemed to jump around all over the place, and felt like a bit of a jumbled ramble. Also I found some of the names to be difficult to keep straight. Though I think I am starting now to adapt to it more so, I still have some trouble with some of the names.

[Scheherazade]

Got my copy from the library this afternoon but I won't be able to start reading till Monday probably.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hey, I have to read this book for uni (but not just yet) so I will join in the discussion when I have read it. I've got a few other things I need to read before this one though.

It is that time of year again when 95% of your reading is taken up with university stuff, and boy is the first semester going to be a hard one for me! I'm even going to have to sever my lit net addiction a little. ;)

[Dark Muse]

Well the discussion is ongoing, so you can join in whenever you like and are able. I think the book might be a bit slow going for me, so far. I am still struggling a bit with parts of it, and trying to make sense of all that is going on.

There is lots of repetition used in the book, which usually I am not a fan of, because I find it distracting, and at times confusing. It makes me feel like I started reading the same paragraph over again. I keep stopping like wait, I already read that.....oh no it is just repeating.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Oh no, I was hoping that it might be a simple read, I've got to trek through the jungles of Conrad again before that one (not to mention a bulk of literary theory and 17th century history) but I will gladly join in when I have read it. I haven't even got the book yet, I've just ordered it today.

[Dark Muse]

Well I do not think it will prove to be quite as dense and tedious as that, but for me it is mainly the structure and style of the book that make it difficult to follow. And it took me a while to realize someone named Baby Suggs was not in fact actually a baby, LOL.

But for one thing the story is written in dialect, and though I have read stories in dialect before without too much trouble, I am finding this one a bit more difficult. It also flashes a lot back and forth between the present and the past so it is easy to get lost (at least for me) to just where you are in the story.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Oh OK, thanks for the warning. I'm not terribly overjoyed at the thought of reading something predominately in dialect. Yes, I know the theory and the points that will be brought up about this, (post colonial etc) but even still I have an initial resistance to such styles, though perhaps that is just part of the overall picture.

Anyway, I'll get back to you when I have read it, (probably in a few weeks) and hopefully I can contribute a few things to the discussion if I am not totally snowed under with other things.

[Dark Muse]

I will look forward to it

[Scheherazade]

Well I do not think it will prove to be quite as dense and tedious as that, but for me it is mainly the structure and style of the book that make it difficult to follow. And it took me a while to realize someone named Baby Suggs was not in fact actually a baby, LOL.
I wasn't confused about Baby Suggs but I agree with you re. the structure.

Started reading today and it does require careful reading as the characters are introduced without any warning.

It is a good read, though. I want to keep going.

[African_Love]

I'm going to buy this and Lolita soon but I have a lot of other stuff to read first.

[Dark Muse]

I was quite surprsied when that odd woman was introduced as "Beloved." I never thought the title of the book was a reference to a person's name, but they do have strange names in the story don't they?

For some reason I kept thinking that Beloved was a reference in someway to the ghost within the house, perhaps becasue the ghost was said to be a baby.

[Scott89119]

Indeed it is. Keep reading...

[Dark Muse]

Reading this book feels almost like eavesdropping in a way. Things just come up completely out of context so you don't really know exactly what is going on or what happened. You only hear the snippets that John D and Sethe talk about without knowing the background behind it.

It is an interesting narrative approach in a way, but it also makes it a bit hard to follow the story when you cannot really grasp just what is happening.

[Scheherazade]

For some reason I kept thinking that Beloved was a reference in someway to the ghost within the house, perhaps becasue the ghost was said to be a baby.I think at the beginning of the book it was said that baby's name was Beloved (written on her tomb stone) and assumed that the title came from there.

Was surprised with the introduction of the new character.
It is an interesting narrative approach in a way, but it also makes it a bit hard to follow the story when you cannot really grasp just what is happening.I agree regarding the narrative... Sometime I find myself reading and re-reading the same passages to keep up with it.

[Janine]

I watched this movie adapatation awhile ago and I felt it was too odd for me. I hope you all enjoy the book and it's a lot better than the film. Sounds difficult to read.

[Dark Muse]

I think at the beginning of the book it was said that baby's name was Beloved (written on her tomb stone) and assumed that the title came from there.

Oh yeah I remeber something about that, but when I first read it, I did not take it as a name, I thought it was just a sort of epitaph, saying the baby was beloved.


I agree regarding the narrative... Sometime I find myself reading and re-reading the same passages to keep up with it.

Yeah, I am still a bit baffled by the whole wierd milk incident.

[Janine]

Actually, I was being kind on my assessment of the movie. I truly hated that film!...like I said, I hope the book proves to be a whole lot better.

[CollegeGal09]

I just bought it and I'm looking forward to discussing it!

[Dark Muse]

Ok I am confused again haha.

Did Sethe kill her baby? Toward the beginning it talked about the baby's throat being slit, and than later the reason Denver was so isolated and her brother's ran away, was because they said her mother was accused of murder.

But when she was talking to John D. she told him there wasn't anything "bad" in the house, and that it was only sad was all. But you would think if it had been killed it would be wrathful.

And I have to say there was always something about John D. I never really liked from the beginning, and now I really don't like him. I think his whole thing about claiming "he can't help himself" is just some sort of excuse, even if Beloved is a ghost, from the beginning when she first arrived at the house, he like didn't like her because he perceived that she wasn't really attracted to him.

[Scheherazade]

Ok I am confused again haha. I am beginning to think Morrison likes her readers that way! :D


Did Sethe kill her baby?Yep... And in a horrible way too (not that there is a nice way of doing so).

And I have to say there was always something about John D. I never really liked from the beginning, and now I really don't like him. I think his whole thing about claiming "he can't help himself" is just some sort of excuse, even if Beloved is a ghost, from the beginning when she first arrived at the house, he like didn't like her because he perceived that she wasn't really attracted to him.To begin with who is John D? In my edition he is Paul D if you are talking about the guy from Sweet Home.

I kind of like him. I didn't think his dislike of Beloved was because she didn't like him but because he could feel that something about her was not right exactly; he sort of felt that things did not add up. Her fresh feet and hands and so on. Also, he is the one who pushed Beloved out of the house when he first arrived so, I think, he could feel Beloved's dislike for him.

I am onto last 100 pages but I don't know how I feel about this book.

[Dark Muse]

Yay I meant Paul D, I do not know why I got John in my head. He made a few comments about her not liking him or not being attracted to him in the book, particuarly when he was talking about her "glow" of arrosal and he said that it wasn't directed at him.

And even if Beloved is a ghost, I do not by his claiming that she is forcing him to sleep with her, I think he is just trying to make up excuses for himself, particuarly when he ends up backing out of telling Sethe the truth.

He is just trying to make himself look like a victim and not take any personal responsblity for his own actions and choices, and blame it on outside forces. I was hoping Denver would bust him becasue she dosen't like him.

Maybe they will explain later, but I am also confussed how she even had this Beloved baby, becasue it was after Halle had vannished and she just gave brith to Denver so she couldn't have been pregnent already by Halle with another baby. I did not think she had been with anyone else since Halle.

[Helga]

It is a confusing book in parts like you say Muse, but at the end it gets easier to understand and has a nice twist but I can't say I'd put this book on my top ten list but it's pretty good.

[Janine]

I just read all of your posts and see you are confused a bit. I was confused watching the film based on the book. I didn't read the book; but the film did clear it all up by the ending, of which I will not disclose that to any of you. Now reading your posts, it is bringing the story back to me. I do recall the baby being killed and I found the book very disturbing. I guess that was why I didn't particularly like it. Beloved is a ghost or spirit. It's pretty clear from the start in the film that she is so. It might actually help comprehension here to see the film after reading the book. The film was shot on a farm (real functioning plantation) which is in PA and I had been to for Civil War re-enactments many times before. I happen to love that place so that is why I sought out the film to see the location.

[Scheherazade]

Yay I meant Paul D, I do not know why I got John in my head. He made a few comments about her not liking him or not being attracted to him in the book, particuarly when he was talking about her "glow" of arrosal and he said that it wasn't directed at him. I didn't take his comments as displeasure but as confusion. My impessions is that he could see the glow but knew it wasn't directed at him (didn't know that it was directed at Sethe) so he felt even more uneasy about Beloved.
And even if Beloved is a ghost, I do not by his claiming that she is forcing him to sleep with her, I think he is just trying to make up excuses for himself, particuarly when he ends up backing out of telling Sethe the truth. I am not sure on this because like you said I am inclined to think that it is an excuse but if ghosts are "controlling" as many believe them to be (and in this book they seem so as well), it is possible that he is under Beloved's "influence". He did try to tell Sethe, after all.

Maybe they will explain later, but I am also confussed how she even had this Beloved baby, becasue it was after Halle had vannished and she just gave brith to Denver so she couldn't have been pregnant already by Halle with another baby. I did not think she had been with anyone else since Halle.I am waiting to find out who the father is as well. It might be a random person or someone we already know (Baby Suggs' friend maybe?). Sethe did pay for Beloved's tomb by doing a "favour" for the grave digger, didn't she? It is possible that she got involved with someone else in a similar way out of necessity.

[Dark Muse]

.I am not sure on this because like you said I am inclined to think that it is an excuse but if ghosts are "controlling" as many believe them to be (and in this book they seem so as well), it is possible that he is under Beloved's "influence". He did try to tell Sethe, after all.

I am just not convinced that he could not willfully resist if he really tried to. And well there are those that are inclined to believe that even if one is possessed or controlled by another force they cannot be made to do something which isn't already within their subconscious.

[Scheherazade]

So, some of our questions have been answered (I have another 50 pages to go) but I cannot say I like the book better for it.

The chapters by Denver and Beloved are particularly confusing.

I cannot bring myself like Denver somehow.

[Dark Muse]

That is funny, Denver is one of my favorite characters.

Look usual the whole scene with Sethe and the baby in the shed was confussing and did not seem to make a whole lot of sense, since what was happening was never really fully explained. But was Sethe killing her kids becasue she saw the slave hunters coming and thought it would be better if they were dead than if they were to be captured?

[Scheherazade]

Not sure if there will be any more information on the incident in later pages but so far my impression is that Sethe sees the slave hunters coming and decides to sacrifies one of her children to save the rest. If she is a murderer and goes to jail, they won't be going back to Sweet Home...

That is why I think she keeps saying that Beloved would understand etc.

[Dark Muse]

I thought it was her intent to try and kill them all so they could not be taken away, but they had come and stopped her after the killing of Beloved, before she had the chance to kill the others, becasue in the book it said:


....that while he and Baby Suggs were looking the wrong way, a pretty little slavegirl had recognized a hat, and split to the woodshed to kill her children.

[Scheherazade]

Done! :D
I thought it was her intent to try and kill them all so they could not be taken away, but they had come and stopped her after the killing of Beloved, before she had the chance to kill the others, becasue in the book it said:I think you are right that she was going to kill them all; there are some references to this in the later pages.

Still, I don't see why she had to start with Beloved then; doesn't make sense... but the whole thing doesn't make sense to me, anyway.

I cannot say this is one of my favorite books. It was surely a disappointment. I don't think it even compares to Colour Purple, for example.

[Dark Muse]

I have still a little ways to go, just getting to Part 2. Perhaps she started with Beloved becasue Beloved was the youngest, I don't know.

The book is certiantly not what I exepcted it to be, I wonder if Morrison always writes like this? Becasue I have a couple other books by her, I was looking forward to, but now I am not so sure.

I have found myself finding it difficult to get through the book, and not really looking forward to reading it again each time.

[Scheherazade]

I have still a little ways to go, just getting to Part 2. Perhaps she started with Beloved becasue Beloved was the youngest, I don't know. No, she wasn't the youngest.
The book is certiantly not what I exepcted it to be, I wonder if Morrison always writes like this? Becasue I have a couple other books by her, I was looking forward to, but now I am not so sure.

I have found myself finding it difficult to get through the book, and not really looking forward to reading it again each time.Exactly how I felt; not sure when I am going to be picking up another Morrison book.

I am not satisfied with the ending either! :p

[Dark Muse]

So Sethe had Beloved before she had Denver? Becasue during the time when Sethe was pregenent with Denver, and telling the story of giving birth to her, I don't think it was ever mentioned that she had another baby with her. I only recall it mentioining the boys.

[Scheherazade]

Yep, so it seems.

I think it was left our on purpose to confuse the reader! :D

Or Sethe's defence mechanism; just didn't want to thinkk/talk about Beloved much.

[Dark Muse]

Ah yes, that would make sense, and that would explain where the baby came from, as apperently it was also Halle's if she had it before Denver.

[Dark Muse]

I have to say I really began to feel sorry for Sethe the way everyone turned thier back upon her. Though granted it may have been hard to reconcile with what she did, I don't think they were in much of a place to condemn her for her actions considering the posistion she was in and everything she had gone through. Even if her actions were misguided or if they diaproved of what she had done, she had her reasons for it, and she was just trying to do the best she knew how under those circumstances.

[Scheherazade]

I agree with you that Sethe was treated unfairly but, on the other hand, I think her notion of "freedom or nothing" was new to the folks as well. Maybe they viewed "slaver" as something unavoidable, something one had to endure?

[Dark Muse]

Yes, that could be true, Sethe's views upon freedom might be a bit revolutionary for that time. But I think Sethe recgoniznes that there are things that are worth than death, and she could not bare to witness her children suffering as she had suffered, and death was the only escape.

But at that time most people perhaps did have the mind set that slavery was unavoidable, and in spite of the pain and suffering of it, one had no choice but to endure it and wait for a slim opperunity to come and it was difficult for them to convinve of a mother being able to take the life of her own children, and seeing death as another path to ultimate freedom.

As Paul D. had said about her love being "too thick" perhaps no one could truly grasp the full and complete devotion and love that Sethe really had for her children, as there were other discussions within the book about cautious against ever really loving anything or anyone becaue you never know when it may be taken away from you. Perhaps Sethe just opened up her heart in a way that was beyond the understanding of the others.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I am about 60 or so pages into this book and I must agree with your comments regarding its confusing style and structure, in particular the way characters are introduced (or not introduced) is particularly perplexing to me, not to mention the constant jumps in time without much warning. I agree that this must be an intentional ploy, though for what reason I have not fathomed as yet, not that I have given it much thought to be honest.

I could do with finishing this book by Thursday/Friday as I have an essay to do for something else, though I am out for most of the week, but I'll fit it in somehow.

I can't say that I am particularly looking forward to the rest of it, and I think it is not something I would have picked up had it not been required reading, however I will try to keep open minded about it until I have got my head around it a little more.

I'll keep you posted.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, I do think that Morrison does it quite on puerpose, but I am still uncertain nearing the end of the book what it was she was trying to achieve in prestenting the story in this way. Perhaps it is try to put the reader into the minds of the characters, for becasue of thier experinces, it seems in this disjointed way is how thier memories work, and how they deal with what happend. But it does make for difficult reading througout the story.

[LitNetIsGreat]

This novel is becoming a real drag. It certainly doesn't help that I have a lot of work on and I am stressed all over the place with that and other stuff, but it is certainly not one I am relishing at all. The problem is I have not managed to pick it up since Sunday/Monday and I am loosing the threads of it a little.

Could you just answer me one question, why is it that beloved (the dead baby) is suddenly having conversations? :brickwall

Ah, I better go back three places and try again.

[Dark Muse]

Could you just answer me one question, why is it that beloved (the dead baby) is suddenly having conversations? :brickwall

I never even really thought of that, that is an interesting question. Perhaps she is just gaining more "power" or energy, and so she has more ablility to do so.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes perhaps, it's just one more thing that put me off this novel.