Tao Te Ching, or Dao De Jing

[Nietzsche]

I thought i'd open up a discussion for it.

Any particular favorite parts?


I find it to be a very thought provoking text, and it contains many truths... Though, I find some of it to be a bit impractical. Much of the text almost seems to be beckoning people to stop learning, and live a monastic life. Perhaps for the few, this is good, but for others it is a bit impractical. However I think if people, ESPECIALLY political leaders, would be a better place.

If nothing else, I think it is a thought provoking read. Though I have not finished its entirety yet, I studied a condensed version in college and decided to purchase a full text which I received in the mail.

Perhaps, it does not necessarily mean to force readers into a monastic life of not possessing things or learning much, but learning to let go of things and be objective when things seem to be out of control.

Any Daoists on this board? Buddhists who have studied Daoist Texts?

[NickAdams]

I'm still reading it as well and have allowed the "current" to take me.

I also have Zhaugnzi and have read portions of it.

I am intrigued by the Taoist conception of memory.

I have often quoted the 38th:

Superior virtue is unvirtue. Therefore it has virtue. Inferior virtue never loses sight of virtue. Therefore it has no virtue.

I copied this from an online text, I prefer my translation, which I will post later.

[NikolaiI]

Here is a Vaisnava who is deeply rooted in Buddhism and also has studied a bit of Daoism. I've only read a couple books, such as Daoist Body Cultivation, which I found remarkable and some ideas similar to philosophers such as Sri Aurobindo and Alan Watts. One idea in that book was a process of subtlising one's energy and form; similar to purifying one's existence in Hinduism. The end result of this was to go to live with the gods at the end of this life. :)

I've also read the Tao Te Ching and also find it is very deep, thought-provoking, and enlightening. One of my favourite parts is about the Tao being the source of infinite worlds, and also when Laozi mentions being one with the universe. I find it interestingly paralleled in Black Elk and Swami Vivekananda, as well as Alan Watts, etc., many others. I've also had such experiences, and I believe it is a truth that we are one with the universe.

Anyway I thank you very much for creating this thread.

[Nietzsche]

Here is a Vaisnava who is deeply rooted in Buddhism and also has studied a bit of Daoism. I've only read a couple books, such as Daoist Body Cultivation, which I found remarkable and some ideas similar to philosophers such as Sri Aurobindo and Alan Watts. One idea in that book was a process of subtlising one's energy and form; similar to purifying one's existence in Hinduism. The end result of this was to go to live with the gods at the end of this life. :)

I've also read the Tao Te Ching and also find it is very deep, thought-provoking, and enlightening. One of my favorite parts is about the Tao being the source of infinite worlds, and also when Laozi mentions being one with the universe. I find it interestingly paralleled in Black Elk and Swami Vivekananda, as well as Alan Watts, etc., many others. I've also had such experiences, and I believe it is a truth that we are one with the universe.

Anyway I thank you very much for creating this thread.

Hello, I have seen you posting before, your posts usually are an interesting read.

What strikes me, is the subtle similarities to some of the philosophers, such as and especially Nietzsche, it has. Not exactly of course, but there are some points of similarity. Largely because, Nietzsche was influenced by Schopenhauer who was known as the "Buddha of Frankfurt" ; Nietzsche praised Buddhism ; "Buddhism is a hundred times more realistic than Christianity: posing problems objectively and coolly is part of its inheritance, for Buddhism comes after a philosophic movement which spanned centuries. ....it no longer says "struggle against sin" but, duly respectful of reality, "struggle against suffering."

I know I quote Herr Nietzsche a lot, but his philosophy has been a profound influence on my ever changing and adapting outlook on life.

Two of my favorite parts of the Tao Te Ching (Stephen Mitchell adaptation)

Poem 57
"If you want to be a great leader
you must learn to follow the Tao.
Stop trying to control.
Let go of fixed plans and concepts
and the world will govern itself

The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self reliant people will be.

Therefore the master says:
I let go of the law
and people become honest
I let go of economics
and people become prosperous
I let go of religion
and people become serene
I let go of all desire for the common good
and the good becomes common as grass.

Poem 58
If a Country is governed with tolerance
The people are comfortable and honest
If a country is governed with repression,
the people are depressed and crafty.

When the will to power is in charge;
the higher the ideals, the lower the results.
Try to make people happy,
and you lay the groundwork for misery.
Try to make a people moral,
and you lay the groundwork for vice.

Thus the master is content
to serve as an example
and not to impose her will.
She is pointed, but does'nt pierce.
Straightforward, but supple.
Radiant, but easy on the eyes.

Poem 60

Governing a large country is like frying a small fish. You spoil it with too much poking. Center your country in the Tao, and evil will have no power. Not that it isn't there, but you''ll be able to step out of its way. Give evil nothing to oppose, and it will dissipate by itself.



How do you think these poems apply to modern American politics?I believe this poem to be critical of big government, the government should stay out of peoples lives and let things be. What do you think? Do you believe a government meddling in people's moral and financial affairs is good or bad? Remember, respect others. I do not intend this to become a debate, merely your interpretation of the poem. Much of this book seems to be a critic of large government and a handbook for leaders. Would the world not be a tenfold better, if the politicians practiced the Daoist concepts in their policy?

[JBI]

I'm still reading it as well and have allowed the "current" to take me.

I also have Zhaugnzi and have read portions of it.

I am intrigued by the Taoist conception of memory.

I have often quoted the 38th:

Superior virtue is unvirtue. Therefore it has virtue. Inferior virtue never loses sight of virtue. Therefore it has no virtue.

I copied this from an online text, I prefer my translation, which I will post later.
What'd you think of Zhuangzi - kind of chaotic know, with the self-ironization that is so incredibly playful - it reads more like poetry in many places than philosophy.


As for the Dao De Jing - I have undergone a comparative study essentially of different translations, and currently I stick to an Italian one I picked up on the internet, as it seems to ring the best in my year (it certainly is more literal), but on what grounds do we constitute this a religious text - I don't think Laozi, if he existed, would have thought it so - the actual definition between philosophy and religion isn't exactly there, but I think this one falls, by Western understanding, closer to philosophy.

On another note - anybody else find the text quite nihilistic - it seems, from the beginning, Laozi is trying to convince us that the Dao, the infinity, is something of a nihilistic void - anyone else get that feeling?

[blazeofglory]

Tao Te Ching was really amazing, and he was really enlightened. In fact modern culture is something an amalgamation of many things, and we all are representations of the past. Tao is a great source of inspiration to me and I really am in great in debt to him.

[billl]

In fact modern culture is something an amalgamation of many things, and we all are representations of the past.

Nice.

[NikolaiI]

Tao Te Ching was really amazing, and he was really enlightened. In fact modern culture is something an amalgamation of many things, and we all are representations of the past. Tao is a great source of inspiration to me and I really am in great in debt to him.

Yes, we are a reflection of events, and times, but also we are part of the deeper current of reality upon which all forms arise and enter into. We are the Dao when we are born, and at times perchance we stray away from the transparent nature of the Dao, and at other times we become more aware of it and in tune with it. Everything is some part of the Dao. Everything has Dao at its center, and the Dao is the overall, transcendent harmony and existence of all forms. The Dao is the peaceful static substratum, and the dynamic clashing of forms as well, there are no qualities which are not qualities of the Dao. We are not sometimes part of the Dao, but we are always part of the Dao. The Dao does not come and then leave us, it is always our center, and everything in existence is always some expression of the Dao.

[billl]

Yes, we are a reflection of events, and times, but also we are part of the deeper current of reality upon which all forms arise and enter into.

This is maybe an attempt to broaden Blaze's point, I take it, rather than a correction of some sort. A sort of "A-ha" more than a "but," to my ears :-).

Whatever that source is, and however deeply we might realize it is there, we experience it (well, at least in discussion) through events, and times. Even after meditation, we are left with events and times, as well as the depths that we can always point into, deeper and deeper.

And agendas. Agendas that can differ, or co-relate. That's a bit interesting.

But I kind of agree with JBI:


On another note - anybody else find the text quite nihilistic - it seems, from the beginning, Laozi is trying to convince us that the Dao, the infinity, is something of a nihilistic void - anyone else get that feeling?
I think the Tao Te Ching is MAYBE too careful, and maybe too cautious about effort and passion, IF we take the text seriously on its fundaments, and not as a sort of corrective to our often addictive and pathological souls. A reader will, I think, have to take from it different lessons, depending on their differing needs.
It might be a matter of taste, but a strict and universal bliss and oneness isn't all roses, I don't think. In my opinion, it would maybe be more like sand, in an inoffensive pile, that we'd convince ourselves is "all roses." I think the turbulent boundaries are just fine, at least from where I see things. I am a part of it, but just a part, not alone.

But the book realizes this yinging and yanging of oneness and separateness, even in the first chapter (again, the Mitchell 'adaptation'):

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.

Is it maybe nihilistic about its nihilism? You still need desire...
Some translations downplay this balance, but this view rings true for me.

[NikolaiI]

I think the Tao Te Ching is MAYBE too careful, and maybe too cautious about effort and passion, IF we take the text seriously on its fundaments, and not as a sort of corrective to our often addictive and pathological souls. A reader will, I think, have to take from it different lessons, depending on their differing needs.
It might be a matter of taste, but a strict and universal bliss and oneness isn't all roses, I don't think. In my opinion, it would maybe be more like sand, in an inoffensive pile, that we'd convince ourselves is "all roses." I think the turbulent boundaries are just fine, at least from where I see things. I am a part of it, but just a part, not alone.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying it's inherently untrue. What I mean is, the creation, for example, nature, and its innumerable forms. Well, the soul falsely identifies with them, when it is actually not bound by any of those forms.

And duality - I would say that one should really experience non-duality before discarding it. I've experienced peace beyond anything I can possibly describe - which I interpreted as experiencing non-duality - although it wasn't a permanent state. And I understand people who say that they think peace is boring... but they don't quite understand, that there is an infinite bliss and peace... so profound as to make everything else mean nothing.

[billl]

I'm pretty sure I have experienced that. Hard to compare, of course! Certainly, I have managed to experience non-duality, although I wouldn't claim it lasted for more than minutes on my timer, during meditation, and only in unusual bursts during regular daily life.

And I understand that feeling peace through meditation (or even during stressful and "exciting" times) would be only unfairly characterized as boring.

Anyhow, I'm not discarding the significance of either half of it (neither the duality, nor the non-duality).

[blazeofglory]

I find Taoism close to Vedic literature. I always read Taoism with great passions. I have been transformed through the Tao Path.

We indeed find the Tao Path really great and enlightening and the splendors of what we read in it are matchless in terms of philosophy.

I am a tireless reader of Taoism and the mention of this on this forum has emotionalized me. I find it as a great reservoir of spirituality.

It enriches us and our spiritual journey thru this becomes fruitful

[JBI]

Tao (or better spelled Dao) path seems a little redundant, since Dao itself means path, or better yet, way. The above post then would suggest a sort of misreading I think, in that it is "The Path" rather than the "Daoist Path". The LaoZi would suggest that the Dao, or Way, is existent outside of the religion itself, which isn't actually a religion, and only becomes a codified set of thoughts during the Tang Dynasty, when its cultural position was threatened by the emergent Buddhism, which was eventually the richest and most significant institution in China, and had over 70% of the world's population of the time under its persuasion. Daoism then, or the Dao, is more relative; when read against the ZhuangZi, for instance, the LaoZi offers a more philosophical approach that seems rather open, and full of contradictions. All things are equal, but the LaoZi is also informed with Yin and Yang school philosophy, and is foundational, as well as compliment by thought in Wu-Wei philosophy (action through non-action).

The actual Path though is suggested to exist outside of creation; that is perhaps why it remains untranslated, as an accurate translation is pretty much impossible; the path is everything and nothing; it is suggested to be beyond language, time and place, beyond existence or non-existence. I believe a modern translation is to put it as "being and non-being" but even that is patchy.

[Nietzsche]

Tao (or better spelled Dao) path seems a little redundant, since Dao itself means path, or better yet, way. The above post then would suggest a sort of misreading I think, in that it is "The Path" rather than the "Daoist Path". The LaoZi would suggest that the Dao, or Way, is existent outside of the religion itself, which isn't actually a religion, and only becomes a codified set of thoughts during the Tang Dynasty, when its cultural position was threatened by the emergent Buddhism, which was eventually the richest and most significant institution in China, and had over 70% of the world's population of the time under its persuasion. Daoism then, or the Dao, is more relative; when read against the ZhuangZi, for instance, the LaoZi offers a more philosophical approach that seems rather open, and full of contradictions. All things are equal, but the LaoZi is also informed with Yin and Yang school philosophy, and is foundational, as well as compliment by thought in Wu-Wei philosophy (action through non-action).

The actual Path though is suggested to exist outside of creation; that is perhaps why it remains untranslated, as an accurate translation is pretty much impossible; the path is everything and nothing; it is suggested to be beyond language, time and place, beyond existence or non-existence. I believe a modern translation is to put it as "being and non-being" but even that is patchy.

Perfectly said. It sounds like you have a good understanding of Taoism/Daoism.

[JBI]

Perfectly said. It sounds like you have a good understanding of Taoism/Daoism.

I should hope so; I major in what is essentially Chinese culture/language studies, so I hope I know enough at least to appease my professors, though I would need to learn more about classical Chinese to actually start cutting at the real text from a deeper angle.

Though, if anybody is interested, there are very great works published on the subject of Daoism that give a better approach than any mediocre introduction to some half-translated version of the LaoZi; I am told by my professor that French scholars centered around L'Université de Paris are particularly noteworthy in historical and critical work on Daoism.

[NikolaiI]

JBI - can you explain about the different qualities of energy, or qi? I read that one goal in Daoism is to subtilise our energy or qi, until it reached the most subtle it could be, at which point we would leave this planet and go live with the gods. Have you read about this? The book I read that mentioned this was Daoist Body Cultivation.

[DanielBenoit]

Some of my favorite parts so far:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
The unnameable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.
Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

[DanielBenoit]

What I find particularly fascinating about the concept of Tao is its transcendce and yet its emptiness in words. The paradoxes of the poems (if that's what you want to call them) seem to create a void beyond words and beyond logic, almost describing the descriptionless with these paradoxes.

Also, doesn't the unification of Tao somewhat remind you of Spinoza's pantheism? Or am I just far off the wall?

[dizzydoll]

Though, I find some of it to be a bit impractical. Much of the text almost seems to be beckoning people to stop learning, and live a monastic life. Perhaps for the few, this is good, but for others it is a bit impractical.

Well I think it comes down to the simple things in life, thats what the message of the tao is all about. There is much we have to unlearn and there is much taught which is of no value to our souls journey in the long run. I mean its all fair and well to play scrabble in order to show off ones knowledge. But thats not where its at, surely? Why identify with that certificate on the wall, when it really doesnt reflect the real YOU, the 'old soul' who knows everything. There is more important things to focus on, so enjoy unlearning all that stuff and become a child again.:Angel_anim:

This is one of my favorite verses:


Life is a series
of natural
and spontaneous
changes

Don’t resist them --
that only creates sorrow
Let reality be reality

Let things flow naturally forward
in whatever way
they like

Lao Tzu

:hurray:

[blazeofglory]

The Tao way is somewhat similar to what is written in the Vedas. I have read Dao De Jing I was so startled to find so many similarities between these two philosophical treatises. Taoism is the way, and from that standpoint it is more of philosophy than of religion.

It demands of us a great amount of contemplation to understand Taoism. They are gems of wisdom, a great reservoir of knowledge. One must read unreservedly and profoundly to get to the bottom of this path.

They are matchless ideas and I believe anyone reading it with a focused mind will be transformed by Taoism. Just a cursory reading will not suffice. One has to read several times in complete seclusion. They are ancinet findings or truths and if we look at them thru our smeared we cannot visualize the beauty of them.

[dizzydoll]

They are matchless ideas and I believe anyone reading it with a focused mind will be transformed by Taoism. Just a cursory reading will not suffice. One has to read several times in complete seclusion. They are ancinet findings or truths and if we look at them thru our smeared we cannot visualize the beauty of them.

I agree. I have an MP3 called "Tao - The Three Treasures" (about 60 hours) that I have just begun, where Osho evaluates the Tao. Osho says he does not connect with Lao-Tzu, as he loves Buddha instead. In my opinion he is very gracious in describing the Tao if that is the case. This is what Osho has to say:

Lao-Tzu is simple, his analogy’s are that of a villager -- but alive, radiant. His book of Analogy has to be read again and again .-- Lao-Tzu is a mathematical philosopher who few people understand. But if you allow him you will be transformed by him.

You cant read Lao-Tzu like a paper back it is a life long work to enter the analogy. Logic is superficial, you can understand Aristotle, there is nothing much. But when it comes to Lao-Tzu, the first time you might even miss that there is something. But by-and-by Lao-Tzu will haunt you,. His attraction is feminine. By and by he will catch your being. You only have to allow him.

In logic you have to fight and compete, in analogy you have to be sympathetic you have to allow it -- only then the analogy can flower. So in deep sympathy and reverence, in deep faith and trust only Lao-Tzu can be understood. You will not understand Lao-Tzu with your mind, only your heart. Analogy is for the heart, logic is for the mind. Lao-Tzu is a poet, you listen to poetry you don’t argue with it. You absorb the poetry, you chew it. You allow to move your being, you digest it. You forget the poetry and the words completely but the fragrance becomes part of you. The flavour and significance of the poetry becomes part of you.

:yesnod:


The Tao that can be told, is not the eternal Tao
The Name that can be named, is not the eternal name
The Tao is both named and nameless
As Nameless, it is the origin of all things
As Named, it is the mother of 10,000 things
Ever Desireless one can see the mystery
Ever Desiring one sees only the manifestations
And the Mystery itself
is the Doorway to all understanding

Dr. Wayne Dyer

:Angel_anim:

Tao Blessing for Self or Others

Be Strong. May strength fill you.
May fate favor you and your endeavors.
Your prosperity will abound and swirl about you.
Be lucky. You will know great luck.
Be Healthy. May your life know great vigor and strength.
Be Wise. May the Tao Inject Itself Into Your Life Directly.
Change Fluidly. Bend as you need to bend.
Draw Healthy Love to You.
Let the Support of Allies and Friends Find You.

oops double post


the difference between a little man and a man of tao

a student once asked a zen master, "what is the difference between a little man and a man of tao?".

The zen master clarified, "its simple, when a little man first becomes a student, he is in such a hurry to rush home and tell every one at the top of his voice. On hearing the master's words, he will climb on the roof and shout loudly to the people, on learning about the ways of the master, he would go about the town telling everyone about his newly acquired knowledge".

The zen master says of the tao man. "when a tao man becomes a student, he will first bow his head in gratitude. On hearing the words of the master, he will bow his head and his shoulders and on knowing the ways of the master, he will bow further low up to his waist and walk alongside the wall in order to avoid people from spotting or noticing him"

:d[/quote]

[NikolaiI]

Tao Blessing for Self or Others

Be Strong. May strength fill you.
May fate favor you and your endeavors.
Your prosperity will abound and swirl about you.
Be lucky. You will know great luck.
Be Healthy. May your life know great vigor and strength.
Be Wise. May the Tao Inject Itself Into Your Life Directly.
Change Fluidly. Bend as you need to bend.
Draw Healthy Love to You.
Let the Support of Allies and Friends Find You.

This is wonderful, and it reminds me how thoughts and aspirations affect reality as directly as actions do.

"So tell your mind and body they are strong, and begin."

[dizzydoll]

Why thank you Nikolai, it was an appropriate, silent goodbye to someone I care very deeply for :blush5:

Here is another, but this is a much harder act to follow:


The Principles of the Tao

1. To venerate Heaven and Earth - Value and respect both the Heavens and the Earth. Be a good steward of the planet and its resources.

2. To revere the divine beings - Hold in highest esteem the Tao, the eternal source. Appreciate and honor all of the good role models, Buddhas, sages, and teachers, who have come before us.

3. To be patriotic and responsible - Respect and honor the good things about your country and its government and to work to change things that could be done better; fulfill your civic duties.

4. To be virtuous and courteous - Always act in a virtuous and courteous manner and uphold the Rules of Propriety. Practical guidelines regarding propriety of Demeanor, Deportment, Speech, Conduct, Example, and Sexual activity can be found in the Analects of Confucius.

5. To honor the parents - Love, honor, respect, support, and be obedient to one's parents to let them live worry-free lives.

6. To value the teachers - Honor and respect one's teachers and elders for their efforts to educate you and for the wisdom of their years.

7. To keep faith with friends - Be trustworthy, dependable and honest with your friends.

8. To live harmoniously with neighbors - Be a good neighbor. Be helpful and friendly with those who share your neighborhood.

9. To discard the bad and seek the good - Rid oneself of bad habits and pursue good thoughts and deeds.

10. To clarify the Five Relationships and the Eight Virtues - Expound upon the Five Bonds of Human Relationships and the Eight Cardinal Virtues:

a) Five Bonds of Human Relationships - between sovereign and minister, parents and children, husband and wife, between siblings, and between friends

b) Eight Cardinal Virtues - filial piety, brotherly love, loyalty, truthfulness, courtesy, righteousness, integrity, and a sense of shame

11. To spread the teachings of the Five Religions - Recognize as valid all significant spiritual or philosophical traditions that have the potential to uplift and inspire people to do good.

12. To follow the ancient practice of the Four Ethics, the Mainstays and the Constant Virtues - To obey and respectfully practice the Four Ethical Principles, the Three Mainstays of Social Order, and the Five Constant Virtues.

The Four Ethical Principles - courtesy, righteousness, integrity, a sense of shame

The Three Mainstays of Social Order - between sovereign and minister, parents and children, husband and wife

The Five Constant Virtues - benevolence, righteousness, courtesy, wisdom, and truthfulness

13. To cleanse the mind and purify the spirit - Eliminate harmful/destructive thoughts. Maintain a happy positive attitude.

14. To utilize the illusory world in cultivating the truth – “Illusory” refers to the Buddhist idea that the world is just an illusion. By studying the world we can learn about the Tao.

15. To restore the nature of the self - To recognize, value, and respect one's original Buddha-nature. That is, you are a sentient being with an infinite potential for understanding, or “enlightenment” if you prefer, and for doing good.

16. To develop the perfection of conscience - Continually work to develop one's innate wisdom with respect to acting in harmony with the Tao.

17. To establish oneself and help others in establishment - First secure for yourself a stable position in society and then help those less fortunate to secure a stable position too.

18. To achieve goals and help others in achievement - Set and reach one's own goals and help others do so too.

19. To bring the world into peace - Work to transform the world into a peaceful, honest, and orderly society.

20. To change hearts into goodness - Enlighten the minds of people, by your actions and your words, and enable them to return to a natural state of benevolence.

21. To transform the world into Great Unity - By pursuing this path, to bring the world into a state of harmony, equality, fraternity, and justice.

:smile5:

This was the first verse of the Tao Te Ching that I was introduced to. I find it the most beautiful:

The spirit that never dies
is called the mysterious feminine
Although she becomes the whole universe
her immaculate purity is never lost
Although she assumes countless forms
her true identity remains intact

The gateway to the mysterious female
is called the root of creation

Listen to her voice
hear it echo through creation
Without fail, she reveals her presence
without fail, she brings us to our own perfection
Although it is invisible, it endures
It will never end.

6th verse of the Tao Te Ching - Lao-Tzu
:hurray:


Those who know, do not talk
Those who talk, do not know

Block all the passages
Close your mouth
Cordon off your senses
Blunt your sharpener
Untie your knot
Soften your glare
Settle your dust
This is primal union
for the secret embrace

One who knows the secret
is not moved by attachment or urgent
swayed by profit or loss
or touched by honor or disgrace
He is far beyond the cares of men
yet comes to hold the dearest place in their hearts
This therefore is the highest state of man.

56th verse of the Tao Te Ching

:Angel_anim:

You are me, and I am you.
Isn't it obvious that we "inter-are"?
You cultivate the flower in yourself,
so that I will be beautiful.
I transform the garbage in myself,
so that you will not have to suffer.

I support you;
you support me.
I am in this world to offer you peace;
you are in this world to bring me joy.

by Thich Nhat Hanh


6th verse from The Tao Te Ching

The spirit that never dies
is called the mysterious feminine.
Although she becomes the whole universe,
her immaculate purity is never lost.
Although she assumes countless forms,
her true identity remains intact.
The gateway to the mysterious female
is called the root of creation.
Listen to her voice,
hear it echo through creation.
Without fail,
she reveals her presence.
Without fail,
she brings us to our own perfection.
Although it is invisible, it endures.
It will never end.

Lao Tzu

:D :cool:


Taoism and Confucianism

Taoism and Confucianism disagree on several points on their understanding of how the world functions and the best role for a person to play in that world. It is difficult to say that one is a criticism of another, but there are comparable issues in which Taoist writings can be interpreted as directly addressing the more troubling aspects of Confucianism.

Confucianism tends to despise nature. Writings of Confucian scholars show nature to be cruel and symbolize all the negative in the world. They fear it and hide from it. In his poetry, the Confucian Tu Fu uses the most frightening aspects of nature to show his discomfort in being out in the wild, "I feared wild beasts would hear her cries." (Tu Fu 1384) Civilization is a place from where nature can be excluded. "Oh, to own a mighty mansion of a hundred thousand rooms, A great roof for the poorest gentlemen of all this world, a place to make them smile, A building unshaken by wind or rain, as solid as a mountain, Oh, when shall I see before my eyes a towering roof such as this?" (1388) He is desiring to take all the people, or at least his chosen gentlemen, of the world out of nature and hide them behind protective walls and roof.

Taoism enjoys the beauty in nature. The writings of Taoists seek to live in harmony with nature. The Taoist Paradise of The Peach Blossom Spring is a place where people live as a part of nature, not sequestered from it, "after a few dozen steps it suddenly opened out onto a broad and level plain where well-built houses were surrounded by rich fields and pretty ponds. Mulberry, bamboo and other trees and plants grew there, and criss-cross paths skirted the fields." (T'ao Ch'ien 1360)

There is a contrast between Confucianism and Taoism in how they view the role of a person in the world around him. Confucianism, while rebelling against the dictatorial role of Legalism, still takes a far more aggressive position than Taoism.

Confucians desire to impose their will upon their world. They are burdened by the troubles of the world and take to task modeling things into a civilized system where all things are put into a proper place. The Confucian ruler would favor leading by example over coercion, but the desire for controlling behavior is present none the less. There is a certain arrogance in the notion of always judging people to be good or evil. While the Confucian measure of goodness is in actions towards other people, it is also measured in a distinct lack of kindness to those the Confucian judges to be evil, "Those in his village who are good like him and those who are bad dislike him." (Analects 829-30)

Taoists believe in a Natural Law where the world should be allowed to go on unobstructed. "Do not be disturbed, do not be frightened; all things will clarify themselves. Do not be upset, do not be startled; all things will order themselves." (Cleary 39) Rather than disturbing the balance of nature, or being themselves disturbed by things beyond their control, they allow nature to take on its own order and find peace in that setting.

When Confucius is questioned about the role of government, he first lists three things important to rule in society as being providing food, arms, and cultivating trust. When questioned on the relative importance, he first lists arms as the least important. But when further questioned, he spells out trust as being paramount among the three, "Give up food. Death has been with us since the beginning of time, but when there is no trust, the common people will have nothing to stand on." (Analects 828) This implies that it is more important for a ruling class to maintain control, and retain their status as a ruling class, than it is for the basic needs of the people governed to be provided for.

Taoism gives a very different view on how to govern, "The Sage's way of governing begins by Emptying the heart of desires, Filling the belly with food, Weakening the ambitions, Toughening the bones." (Lao Tzu 7) Rather than the Confucian priority of maintaining social structure, the Taoists would forgo the hierarchal structure altogether in favor of providing for the basic needs of the populace. Here is a sharp criticism of more discriminating and dogmatic philosophies, that favor a ruling class, such as Confucianism and the more extreme Legalism. Where Confucianism seeks an absolute solution, Taoism purports the concept of wu-wei, that is 'non purposeful action'.

The ultimate difference between Confucianism and Taoism is their respective views on what is knowledge.

Confucius had no use for concerns outside ordering society. Upon spending a day in meditation, "I [Confucius] found that I gained nothing from it. It would have been better for me to have spent the time in learning." (Analects 830) Confucius also sees no point in spending time away from society, "One cannot associate with birds and beasts. Am I not a member of this human race?" (831) Rather, the Confucian scholar would spend a lifetime in learning to judge good from bad and how to promote his notion of virtue in society.

Taoism, on the other hand, seeks to appreciate that there is more to the world than can be readily studied. Human judgements and interpritations are inherently flawed by a lack of understanding the whole picture from its limited perspective and the limitations of language, the tool with which a person thinks. As expressed in the opening of the Tao Teh Ching, "Tao can be talked about, but not the Eternal Tao. Names can be named, but not the Eternal Name." (Lao Tzu 3) The Tao Teh Ching directly comments on the common concept of knowledge, "To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, This is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, This is a mental sickness." (145) Here, if anywhere, is where Confucian ideals are directly refuted by Taoism. Taoism sees the most virtuous state of a person to be as a child with his mind unclouded by the very knowledge and judgements that Confucianism would regard as virtuous.

Confucius was concerned with matters of human relationships. His philosophy inspires scholars to take up civil service with the goal of building a society based upon their discernment of good and bad and to desire that which is judged to be good. Lao Tzu rejects such worldly concerns, limited knowledge and flawed judgements as creating an imbalance in the nature of things. The way of Confucius is to forge a moral society protected from the world, while the way of Lao Tzu is to allow man and nature to come into a harmonic coexistence.

:boxing_smiley:


The Tao is empty but inexhaustible
Bottomless, the ancestor of it all
Within it, the sharp edges become smooth
the twisted knots loosen
the sun is softened by a cloud
the dust settles into place
it is hidden but always present
I do not know who gave birth to it
it seems to be the common ancestor of all
“The Father of things”

4th verse of the Tao Te Ching - Lao-Tzu
Dr Wayne Dyer

:wink5:


Other interpretations of the 4th Verse of the Tao Te Ching


4. THE UNFATHOMABLE TAO
It is the nature of the Tao,
that even though used continuously,
it is replenished naturally,
never being emptied,
and never being over-filled,
as is a goblet
which spills its contents
upon the ground.
The Tao therefore cannot be said
to waste its charge,
but constantly remains
a source of nourishment
for those who are not so full of self
as to be unable to partake of it.
When tempered beyond its natural state,
the finest blade will lose its edge.
Even the hardest tempered sword,
against water, is of no avail,
and will shatter if struck against a rock.
When untangled by a cutting edge,
the cord in little pieces lies,
and is of little use.
Just as the finest swordsmith
tempers the finest blade
with his experience,
so the sage, with wisdom, tempers intellect.
With patience, tangled cord may be undone,
and problems which seem insoluble, resolved.
With wise administrators, all can exist in unity,
each with the other,
because no man need feel that he exists,
only as the shadow of his brilliant brother.
Through conduct not contrived for gain,
awareness of the Tao may be maintained.
This is how its mysteries may be found.

Stan Rosenthal's Translation


4
The Tao is an empty vessel;
it is used, but never filled.
Oh, unfathomable source
of ten thousand things!
Blunt the sharpness,
Untangle the knot,
Soften the glare,
Merge with dust.
Oh, hidden deep
but ever present!
I do not know
from whence
it comes.
It is the forefather of the gods.

Gia Fu Feng & Jane English


-4-
The Tao is like an empty bowl,
yet it may be used
without ever needing to be filled.
It is the deep and unfathomable source
of the ten thousand things.
Blunt the sharpness.
Untie the knot.
Soften the glare.
Settle with the dust.
It is hidden deep yet ever present.
I do not know whose child it is.
It existed before the common ancestor.

Tolbert McCarroll

:iagree:

Where Science and Buddhism Meet.PART 1
PART 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj_i7YqDwJA)
This emptiness also known as ---- Tao in Taoism and in Brahman in Hinduism
These two seem to strongly parallel the concept of the quantum field

Where Science and Buddhism Meet. PART 2
PART 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlmrHMBW36w&NR=1)
Unobserved particles take on infinite potential - behave like waves
While observed, particles take on finite possibility

Quantum physicists have now stumbled upon what mystics have been saying for over 2000 years -- that reality is the projection of the mind.

:iagree:


132

Form and emptiness are interdependent,
yet identical.
Silence and sound are different,
yet the same.
Subject and object exist,
yet they don’t.
Every thing is in all things,
all things are in every thing.
We have never met,
yet we have known each other
since before time existed.
Knowing this brings peace.
Accepting this great mystery
is true enlightenment.

Do you despair
when this mystery
seems to block your way?
Don’t.
Enlightenment comes
when it comes.
It is in the blades of grass
you have trampled with your feet.
You cannot go to it,
but it will come to you.

:banana:

[NikolaiI]

Really nice posts, Dizzy :)

[dizzydoll]

Thank you Nikolai, after reading some of your posts I figured we think very much alike


Ignorance is not
a lack of knowledge,
but a lack of faith
in the unknowable.
The ignorant
cling to knowledge
as if knowledge
can explain
the inexplicable.
The Taoist sage
lives in harmony
with the mysterious.

46th verse of Tao Te Ching
By Jos Slabbert
Jos Slabbert's True Tao (http://www.taoism.net/theway/taoistao.htm)

:thumbsup:

Balance is important:

As for myself, I am not always a Taoist all the time. I am Taoist when contemplating the mystery and wonder of the universe. I am Taoist when walking in the MO Botanical Gardens or when diving into the ocean waves or practicing Taiji on the Cahokia Mounds. I like to be Taoist when sparring with others, seeking to blend with my opponent’s movements rather than opposing them, turning my opponent into my dance partner instead of my enemy. I am Taoist when I contemplate the continuous ebb and flow of Yin and Yang. I am Taoist whenever people ask me to define myself in their terms, or whenever else I feel like it. But in truth I must also confess to a fondness for being Confucian, also and sometimes at the same time “Bears Paw”. “Bears Paw” as discussed by Confucius foremost disciple Mencius states:

“I like fish and I also like bear’s paw. If I cannot have both, I shall give up the fish and choose the bear’s paw. I like life and I also like righteousness. If I cannot have both of them, I shall give up life and choose righteousness. I love life, but there is something I love more than life, and therefore I will not do anything improper to have it. I also hate death, but there is something I hate more than death and therefore there are occasions when I will not avoid danger.”

A .pdf file Tao Te Ching (TTC) and the Art of War (AOW) Strategies
www.stltaiji.com/documents/the_Tao_Te_ching_article.pdf

:iagree:


Many a false step is made by standing still.
Chinese Proverb


Spirituality

Taoists believe that man is a microcosm for the universe. The body ties directly into the Chinese five elements. The five organs correlate with the five elements, the five directions and the seasons. Akin to the Hermetic maxim of "as above, so below", Taoism posits that man may gain knowledge of the universe by understanding himself.

In Taoism, even beyond Chinese folk religion, various rituals, exercises, and substances are said to positively affect one's physical and mental health. They are also intended to align oneself spiritually with cosmic forces, or enable ecstatic spiritual journeys. These concepts seem basic to Taoism in its elite forms. Internal alchemy and various spiritual practices are used by some Taoists to improve health and extend life, theoretically even to the point of physical immortality.

The Three Jewels of Tao

The Three Jewels of Tao are compassion, moderation, and humility. They are also translated as kindness, simplicity (or the absence of excess), and modesty. Arthur Waley describes them as "the three rules that formed the practical, political side of the author's teaching". He correlated the Three Treasures with "abstention from aggressive war and capital punishment", "absolute simplicity of living", and "refusal to assert active authority.
READ MORE... (http://important.ca/three_jewels_of_tao.html)

:thumbs_up

[Scheherazade]

R e m i n d e r

The Religious Texts section is for discussion of such texts.

Unless you are using these to support your arguments, please avoid simply quoting from other websites or sources.

[NikolaiI]

Any Daoists on this board? Buddhists who have studied Daoist Texts?

I have something.. well I just gave it to a friend..... but it's called the Buddhist I Ching... wait... I Ching is related to Daoism, right? Anyway it's a great text for study... it was written (the comentaries or what have you) a few centuries ago by a Buddhist master... and then just translated by Thomas Cleary (of course :p)...

I think what Daoism essentially reveals for us... as do all religions... that is... anyway... my interpretation, which I do realize is not what everyone else thinks (thank GOD)...

Well, what I am saying is... I think the essential truth in all of them is something that islandclimber, put into expression... when we were talking philosophy and what is existence, reality, ourselves, etc. he said... after all his studies and living and adventures etc. and what have you... his conclusion was that we are love. And quite interestingly to me, just now I've come to the same conclusion a few days ago... I realized it, fitting it together.. that's what I would say is the underlying truth which is pretty helpfully revealed in... Daoism, in Buddhism, in other religions.. that is my idea.

[dizzydoll]

Well, what I am saying is... I think the essential truth in all of them is something that islandclimber, put into expression... when we were talking philosophy and what is existence, reality, ourselves, etc. he said... after all his studies and living and adventures etc. and what have you... his conclusion was that we are love. And quite interestingly to me, just now I've come to the same conclusion a few days ago... I realized it, fitting it together.. that's what I would say is the underlying truth which is pretty helpfully revealed in... Daoism, in Buddhism, in other religions.. that is my idea.

I agree Nikolai, love comes and goes in many forms. However sometimes love presents itself as difficulties at first only to be understood later. Love is letting things go too, sometimes its tough love. There are so many amazing degrees to love its quite fascinating.

:Angel_anim:

[NikolaiI]

I mean, rather, Dizzy, not about how love is in our lives... but that we ourselves are love, we are light... that's what I meant.

[blazeofglory]

I mean, rather, Dizzy, not about how love is in our lives... but that we ourselves are love, we are light... that's what I meant.

Yes Nikolia, light and love are our real natures and they are inseparably ourselves.

[dizzydoll]

Yes of course guys, Love is all and all is Love. Not separate but all in Oneness.

...

26 Therefore, the truly great man, although he does not injure others, does not credit himself with charity and mercy. He seeks not gain, but does not despise his followers who do. He struggles not for wealth, but does not take credit for letting it alone. He asks help from no man, but takes no credit for his self-reliance, neither does he despise those who seek preferment through friends. He acts differently from the vulgar crowd, but takes no credit for his exceptionality. When others act with the majority he does not despise them as hypocrites. The ranks and emoluments of the world are to him no cause for joy; its punishments and shame no cause for disgrace. He knows that positive and negative cannot be distinguished.

27 But how then, asked the river, are the internal and external extremes of value and worthlessness, of greatness and smallness, to be determined? The ocean replied, From the point of view of the unvarying way there are no such extremes of value or worthlessness. Men individually value themselves and hold others cheap. The world collectively withholds from the individual the right of appraising himself. If we say that a thing is great or small because it is relatively great or small, then there is nothing in all creation which is not great, nothing which is not small. To know that the universe is but as a tare-seed, and that the tip of a hair is a mountain—this is the expression of relativity.

From the Hsin Hsin Ming
http://mindgazer.org/tao/
and
http://mindgazer.org/tao/#Tao

[NikolaiI]

If we say that a thing is great or small because it is relatively great or small, then there is nothing in all creation which is not great, nothing which is not small. To know that the universe is but as a tare-seed, and that the tip of a hair is a mountain—this is the expression of relativity.

This is in accordance with the traditions of Buddhism as well. It's not a preliminary exercise but it's what the masters wrote down, for the preservation of the very idea.

Here is a part of a text (the Avataamsaka Sutra or the Flower Ornament Sutra) which goes into more elaborate detail on the last point.



"With bodies as numerous as atoms of the world . . .
On every atom is found a buddha
Sitting amongst countless buddha sons,
I look with eyes of faith to the victorious ones
Thus filling the entire dharmadhatu [Dharma Realm]."

from the Avatakamsaka Sutra
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/...-4/hi-dara.htm

"In every atom are buddha-fields numberless as atoms,
Each field is filled with buddhas beyond conception,
And each buddha is surrounded by myriad bodhisattvas:
To all these dwellers in sublime ways I turn my attention.
Thus, in all atoms within the directions
Abide within the space of a single hair
An ocean of buddhas within an ocean of buddha-fields
Performing enlightened activities for an ocean of eons.

"I manifest buddha-fields past, present, and future
Upon one single atom of existence,
And then I transform every single atom
Of existence into a buddha-field.

"May I purify an ocean of realms,
May I liberate an ocean of sentient beings,
May I see an ocean of truths,
And may I realize an ocean of wisdom."


I would not post these words if they were merely pretty words to me. Rather they've been accurately descriptive of many parallel discoveries from visionaries through time and cultures. My experience as well has been of this boundless existence beyond the misconceptive duality which pervades all of our modern thought. Beyond the point of duality is the only way to have true wholeness, harmony; and crossing to that point an infinite weight is lifted because all of the suffering we've ever experienced is based on the defense of the ego; whose nature is actually without any self, or substance. For what we term substance is a static, and what exists is a flowing.

There are a thousand points of entry into the magical; we can feel them when we live in a healthy and clean environment, one we can grow in and also can face life's challenges; one where we're stocked up with healthy and loving relationships, for it is through love that we find our highest potential. To feel love, though it seems simple, is one of life's greatest joys... though it goes beyond that.

If we can master ourselves then we can come to a more real understanding of nature.. of all the forces in nature and how they interact, how we can fit ourselves into it all.. the dynamic play of organic life and force. We ourselves shape ourselves and our entire world, as we are the authors of our lives, and the creators of our universe, involved as well as a step beyond; rather than controlled by externals, a mere character, we are the author.

Taoism has become a great science, studying the energies of the mind and the body, and there is a greatly valuable portion of Taoism which is about body cultivation. As the Hindu spiritual leader Swami Vivekananda stated, a healthy body is essential to a life of spiritual growth and to overcome new and greater challenges.

Taoism, just like Buddhism, has a depth which we can't understand until we reach it. ourselves.

[blazeofglory]

This idea that in everything there is God and God is in every thing is the philosophy of Vedanta. This is really a very mysterious notion about the existence of God. God permeates everything and this Godliness of existence is hard to comprehend. Only devotees can feel it our rational man cannot comprehend this.

It is faith and faith alone that works when it comes to understanding God. God's omnipresence or universality is evidently pronounced in the Vedas.

Of course to a certain extent I found similarity between the texts in the Vedas and the Tao Path in point of fact.

Of course the subtlety of the presence of God is hard to comprehend when we have a fixated mind set. Let us purge our preconceived mindsets.

[dizzydoll]

This idea that in everything there is God and God is in every thing is the philosophy of Vedanta. This is really a very mysterious notion about the existence of God. God permeates everything and this Godliness of existence is hard to comprehend. Only devotees can feel it our rational man cannot comprehend this.

It is faith and faith alone that works when it comes to understanding God. God's omnipresence or universality is evidently pronounced in the Vedas.

Of course to a certain extent I found similarity between the texts in the Vedas and the Tao Path in point of fact.

Of course the subtlety of the presence of God is hard to comprehend when we have a fixated mind set. Let us purge our preconceived mindsets.

Please guide me Blaze, where can I read about this Vegas you speak of? As Ive bolded in your comment above. Ta

:D

[dizzydoll]

And so I'm back to weave a bit of magic: Long live the Tao

Self-Rejection
This is how we live -- trying to manipulate the outer world so that our inner world can be at peace. But this struggle is a hopeless task; it is not what will bring us to a state of contentment… We don't know how to leave ourselves alone. Every internal action involves some kind of rejection of our present state, our actual reality. And there is a deeper consequence to this attitude of rejection: By rejecting what is so for us in the present moment, we are rejecting ourselves. We are out of touch with our Being. Aiming toward the future, we sacrifice the present. By looking outside ourselves for what is missing, we subject ourselves, our souls, to the pain of abandonment. (Spacecruiser Inquiry, pg 4)

Soul Child
The primary structure is what we call the "soul child," which is the state of the soul before she was completely structured and became estranged from her primitive animal forms and her essential ground. This is the structure popularly known as the "inner child" -- the child of joy, the emotional child that is still intact with its original qualities of aliveness, curiosity, mischievousness, openness, and so on. It is what is popularly called the emotional child, but slightly different. The emotional child is only the emotional part of the soul child. In reality, as children we were not only emotional; we were living souls, full of life and vigor, adventurous and curious, joyous and playful, but also capable of exploding in rage and frustration, or going into fear and terror. (Inner Journey Home, pg 201)

The dominant condition of the soul child is a soul presence patterned with the child's image, but presence mixed with emotions and impulses. It is fluid and emotionally labile in a passionate way. It is the core of the soul that becomes repressed or split off. It is not the dissociated essence, but a soul structure that still has some ability to experience it. In fact, it is the most developed structure of the soul in which we can still experience the soul as a medium. It is the most developed of the structures that still retain the basic properties of the soul. Nonduality between experiencer and experienced is still present to some degree. (Inner Journey Home, pg 202)

...

I have to restrain myself... I am dieing to post more but then its too much to absorb in one sitting.

have a fab day to all who read this comment
:smile5:

[dizzydoll]

Gosh I'm in a rush but I have to stop and post this. I've been looking for it for so long and now.. it just cropped up, so before it gets lost.. again. Let me share with you. Happy weekend all.

Gratitude

I once traveled with a friend who had great insight into human nature. He said, “Wherever you go you can find something to complain about.” If we travel, we can complain about lumpy beds and crowded airports. But if we stay home, we can complain that we never go anywhere interesting and there’s never anything good on television. In Japanese language there is a term -- on. The meaning of onoften includes a sense of gratitude combined with a desire to repay others for what we have been given.

It’s not just that we feel grateful, or that we express our gratitude, but that we actually experience a sincere desire to give something back. We might think of it as appreciation that stimulates a sense of obligation. Not an externally imposed obligation. But a sense of obligation that arises naturally within us as we recognize how we have been supported and cared for by others.

So how do we go from a complaining life to one which cultivates, and is grounded in, a spirit of on – a spirit of Thanksgiving? A method of Japanese psychology called Naikan gives us insight into the principles help create an authentic life of gratitude and offer us clear and straightforward methods for helping to wake us up to the care, support and gifts that make our own lives possible.


Seven Principles for Cultivating Gratitude
By Gregg Krech

1. Gratitude is independent of one's objective life circumstances;
2. Gratitude is a function of attention;
3. Entitlement makes gratitude impossible;
4. When we continue to receive something on a regular basis, we typically begin to take it for granted;
5. Our deepest sense of gratitude comes through grace -- the awareness that we have not earned, nor do we deserve what we have been given;
6. Gratitude can be cultivated through sincere self-reflection; and
7. The expression of gratitude (through words and deeds) has the affect of heightening our personal experience of gratitude.



Expressing Gratitude is Transformative

Expressing gratitude is transformative, just as transformative as expressing complaint. Imagine an experiment involving two people. One is asked to spend ten minutes each morning and evening expressing gratitude (there is always something to be grateful for), while the other is asked to spend the same amount of time practicing complaining (there is, after all, always something to complain about).

One of the subjects is saying things like, "I hate my job. I can't stand this apartment. Why can't I make enough money? My spouse doesn't get along with me. That dog next door never stops barking and I just can't stand this neighborhood."

The other is saying things like, "I'm really grateful for the opportunity to work; there are so many people these days who can't even find a job. And I'm sure grateful for my health. What a gorgeous day; I really like this fall breeze."

They do this experiment for a year. Guaranteed, at the end of that year the person practicing complaining will have deeply reaffirmed all his negative "stuff" rather than having let it go, while the one practicing gratitude will be a very grateful person. . . Expressing gratitude can, indeed, change our way of seeing ourselves and the world."

-Roshi John Daido Loori

http://www.todoinstitute.org/gratitude.html

:smile5:

[billl]

Self-Rejection
This is how we live -- trying to manipulate the outer world so that our inner world can be at peace. But this struggle is a hopeless task; it is not what will bring us to a state of contentment… We don't know how to leave ourselves alone. Every internal action involves some kind of rejection of our present state, our actual reality. And there is a deeper consequence to this attitude of rejection: By rejecting what is so for us in the present moment, we are rejecting ourselves. We are out of touch with our Being. Aiming toward the future, we sacrifice the present. By looking outside ourselves for what is missing, we subject ourselves, our souls, to the pain of abandonment. (Spacecruiser Inquiry, pg 4)


Is Spacecruiser Inquiry at all concerned about those who are living under domination, or have become mere tools of their abusers? I don't think that the ego's work is always bad, and it is a bit callous to ignore the cases in which people manage to rise above and overcome their circumstances. The future can (sometimes) indeed be better than the present, if one works towards it.

I understand how this all might make sense in terms of not seeking happiness in acquisition, or more and more control in a highly materialistic society. That sort of thing is not so good. But I think victims of acquisition or control needn't be ashamed of rejecting that outer world, and its abuse of the particular individual.

I think that our ego should know its boundaries, with the goal being to neither go beyond, nor surrender, our due as sentient beings. And the back and forth of history is enough for us to learn such things.

[dizzydoll]

Bill that comment on self-rejection deals with living in the present moment.. the now. But here is more on virtue which includes a message for the ego. Of course we all have ego which is necessary for practicality purposes, but outside of that we need to tame our ego to awaken to enlightenment.

Virtue

The Chinese Taoist teacher, Lao Tzu, described the Four Virtues of what he called the virtuous life. If you live according to them you’ll be living the true human life, which will predispose you to the experience and realization of oneness. That means it is not just understanding of self not just having certain experiences; it means living, acting, interacting in a certain way. So what are these four virtues?

* The first has to do with love and respect for your Essence and Being: to live a life that implicitly loves and respects what is genuine in you and everyone…

* Another of the four virtues is sincerity: being sincere in your life, not lying to yourself. To be sincere is to be earnest about exposing your self-deceptions about who you really are, and what you want and do not want, what you feel and do not feel, what scares you and what doesn’t, about what is actually happening in you and in your situation…

* The third virtue or quality is what is called delicacy. It is the nature of the ego-self or personality that it is thick-skinned, thickheaded, hard, and tough. This hardness, toughness, thickness, and dullness is the circumference, or the boundary between you and everyone else and the rest of the universe. So that’s why you need to become more refined, more delicate. You need to have more gentleness, more vulnerability, more receptivity and permeability…

* The fourth quality or virtue is what is called helpfulness. Obviously, helpfulness is based on oneness itself. To be helpful means that you are aware that you do not work only for yourself; your work is for everyone. If you only work on yourself without helping other people, you are not doing the Work. It is as simple as that. (Diamond Heart Book 4, pg 106)

:nod:

[billl]

I agree with the idea that people should be virtuous, and Buddhist writing contains a lot of interesting ideas in that regard. I don't think any system is sufficient to account for all of what we are up against, of course, and so I think a discussion of the Tao is well-served by tempering some of the lessons with a view to the world as it is (the world of appearances, or the world of ten thousand things). I think it is very good to use the ideas (techniques? tactics?) of acceptance, etc. when we are confronted by frustrating circumstances, and that even the spirit of a rebel would of course be well-served by a control of the passions at crucial moments. But I think that a focus exclusively on such teachings can get a little intoxicating--it is conducive to a trancelike acceptance that can be wonderful (even blissful) but can also make people vulnerable to suggestion, accomodating to unfavorable circumstances, and trusting in those who perhaps do not deserve trust. Some people trying to learn to accept everything might tend to do it incorrectly.

Of course, there can be great joy, and even a 'wonderfully' empty awe at a consciousness of consciousness, a perception of some very basic things about existence that we are usually blind to. However, I've seen people have trouble with their egos even while reveling in this sort of thing. Living in the Now can get us through difficult times, and it is useful to be able to do so beyond situations in which we might naturally fall in to a "zone," etc. But it can also produce the perfect mark for a confidence scheme, or be a source of Pride, or lead to the rather depressing prospect of groupthink.

Again, for me, the Taoist (and the Buddhist) perspectives and the cultivation of these approaches is basically a useful collection of techniques, very useful tactical approaches to some aspects of life. Clearly, the ego can get carried away, and the self in general can get carried away with concern with things and trivial events in our environment. But we should also thank goodness for our egos and our boundaries, which make us unique, and enable our selves to have value, and through which we might reach, or sing, or share secrets with each other when we develop trust and wish to do so--and, rather than reject the self in a surrender to simpler and purer existence, we should enjoy our life as human beings that have unique personal perspectives, and deserve to live in dignity.

[dizzydoll]

First I must start by saying, nobody is perfect so there will be things I miss and so I hope others might fill in where I am short on explanation.

Then its important to remember that we dont need to abide by everything that all living belief systems teach us, we have a choice -- some teaching suit us and some not. For example, altho the Buddhist teaching has a lot of wisdom I am perplexed by their conditioning of suffering in order to achieve awakening. I dont believe this is where its at. For me if there are any conditions placed on any belief system the message falls flat.

On the other hand the Tao Te Ching teaches us to simplify our lives, to live in tune with nature, to appreciate and be grateful for natures provisions and beauty, to understand we are all connected in Oneness -- not only to nature but to each other. Lao Tzu sets simple boundaries for us to follow. The Tao also teaches us to not take everything so seriously, to not over analyse things, to stop reaching, to make less laws and rules, to go with the flow instead of fighting it, to understand and accept the reasons for change.

The Tao doesnt say we must not be apart from the 10,000 things [indeed that is impossible], just that we must not allow those things to control our lives. In fact the Tao even teaches the Art of War (AOW) with Strategies for Survival and Tai Chi Chuan martial arts. So its a very practical belief system in its entirety.


Bill:
But I think that a focus exclusively on such teachings can get a little intoxicating--it is conducive to a trancelike acceptance that can be wonderful (even blissful) but can also make people vulnerable to suggestion, accomodating to unfavorable circumstances, and trusting in those who perhaps do not deserve trust. Some people trying to learn to accept everything might tend to do it incorrectly.

There are no "suggestions" in the Tao, in fact quite the contrary its teachings are simple -- to follow our own compass, thats all. Sometimes we will follow Confucius philosophy and sometimes the Tao's philosophy . There is nothing "trance-like" about it either. In fact the Tao recommends a balanced life as discussed by Confucius foremost disciple Mencius
states on a pdf. file in my possession:

[QUOTE]As for myself, I am not always a Taoist all the time. I am Taoist when contemplating the mystery and wonder of the universe. I am Taoist when walking in the MO Botanical Gardens or when diving into the ocean waves or practicing Taiji on the Cahokia Mounds. I like to be Taoist when sparring with others, seeking to blend with my opponent’s movements rather than opposing them, turning my opponent into my dance partner instead of my enemy. I am Taoist when I contemplate the continuous ebb and flow of Yin and Yang. I am Taoist whenever people ask me to define myself in their terms, or whenever else I feel like it. But in truth I must also confess to a fondness for being Confucian, also and sometimes at the same time “Bears Paw”:

“I like fish and I also like bear’s paw. If I cannot have both, I shall give
up the fish and choose the bear’s paw. I like life and I also like righteousness.
If I cannot have both of them, I shall give up life and choose righteousness.
I love life, but there is something I love more than life, and therefore I will
not do anything improper to have it. I also hate death, but there is something
I hate more than death and therefore there are occasions when I will not avoid danger.” 6A:15

You say "Living in the Now can get us through difficult times, and it is useful to be able to do so beyond situations in which we might naturally fall in to a "zone," etc. But it can also produce the perfect mark for a confidence scheme, or be a source of Pride, or lead to the rather depressing prospect of groupthink.".

Firstly all we have is the NOW, the future is non-existent and the past is gone. What we do with the [B]now is important in preparing for our future but its impossible to live for the future per-say. And again you might not understand the Tao fully yet, but perhaps you might after reading what I have outlined... the Tao certainly does not advocate any groupthinks at all, if anything Lao Tzu lived the life of a hermit, he was completely against Confucius' groupthinking proposals.

I agree its important to nurture the ego for obvious reasons and as I said earlier, for practicality purposes, but outside of that the ego must be tamed. What is ego outside of control? Thats what ego is, its control... and you must admit there are times when we simply get in our own way in an attempt to control everything.. this is when we allow our ego a free reign and it causes negative development of the ego. Somethings are completely outside of our control and we must accept that.

I hope this has cleared up some things but remember the Taoist Philosophy is the oldest philosophy on earth so there much out there to grow on. The more you read the more you will grow. The Tao Te Ching is a feminine analogy and the more you read the different interpretations of it the more it will grow on you.

Lao-Tzu is simple, his analogy’s are that of a villager -- but alive, radiant. His book of analogy has to be read again and again. Lao-Tzu is a mathematical philosopher who few people understand. But if you allow him you will be transformed by him.

You cant read Lao-Tzu like a paper back it is a life long work to enter the analogy. Logic is superficial, you can understand Aristotle there is nothing much to it. But when it comes to Lao-Tzu, the first time you meet him you might even miss his vision. But by and by Lao-Tzu will haunt you. His attraction is feminine. By and by he will catch your being. You only have to allow him.

In logic you have to fight and compete, in analogy you have to be sympathetic you have to allow it -- only then the analogy can flower. So in deep sympathy and reverence, in deep faith and trust only Lao-Tzu can be understood. You will not understand Lao-Tzu with your mind, only your heart. Analogy is for the heart, logic is for the mind. Lao-Tzu is a poet, you listen to poetry you don’t argue with it. You absorb the poetry, you chew it. You allow it to move your being, you digest it. You forget the poetry and the words completely but the fragrance becomes part of you. The flavour and significance of the poetry becomes part of you.

I hope this clears up some of your concerns.

[billl]

I like a lot of what you wrote, Dizzy Doll. I am going to return to not speaking so much of these things, but I want to say, before stepping back again, that I was addressing many of the things you have posted, as the scope has gone beyond a discussion of the Tao Te Ching only. I in particular want to say that I have a problem with the "we only have the Now" talk that has become popular recently--again, I think it has a place, especially for those who are dealing with loss or trauma, and that it can benefit us in many other situations as well. But I think it must go through contortions in order to give planning, and the meaningful history of a trusting relationship their proper due.

I think you or others might want to read what I've written again, and consider it--or you might not, of course. And please keep in mind that I have read the Tao Te Ching since more than twenty years ago, I have read it daily for months at a time, and I have to say that no book has had more of an effect on who I have become. I have also read some Buddhist texts and seriously practiced meditation for some time. I really don't think I am missing so much as you appear to think, judging from your most recent post.

[dizzydoll]

Bill I dont know how else you can live except in the present, now. You are doing an injustice to yourself if you do not stay in the present moment to savor it. Have you read any of Eckhart Tolle's work? particularly The Power of Now and A New Earth?

and btw I am dizzy or dizzydoll. Dizzy Doll is in fact a children's doll, it is not me. lol. You can call me diz if you are lazy.

[billl]

Yes, I have read one of Tolle's books. I know what you are talking about here, dizzydoll (sorry about the misspelling :) ). Anyhow, I have posted in other Tao Te Ching threads here, and--to be clear--I recommend Tao Te Ching to everyone.

Tolle would be best covered in a different thread imo.

OK, I'm stepping away from this for a while (and I mean it this time, lol).

[dizzydoll]

But we should also thank goodness for our egos and our boundaries, which make us unique, and enable our selves to have value, and through which we might reach, or sing, or share secrets with each other when we develop trust and wish to do so--and, rather than reject the self in a surrender to simpler and purer existence, we should enjoy our life as human beings that have unique personal perspectives, and deserve to live in dignity.

I am not sure what you are getting at here. Naturally boundaries are a must. We are unique, with value, as that goes without saying. Then to put things in perspective, we came into this world alone and we go out alone, so I am not sure how you tie your ego to another person as you do in the quote above.

[dizzydoll]

The spirit that never dies is called the mysterious feminine. Although she becomes the whole universe, her immaculate purity is never lost. Although she assumes countless forms, her true identity remains intact. The gateway to the mysterious female is called the root of creation. Listen to her voice, hear it echo through creation. Without fail, she reveals her presence. Without fail, she brings us to our own perfection. Although it is invisible, it endures. It will never end.

Lao Tzu
6th verse from The Tao Te Ching

[dizzydoll]

Tao can be roughly stated to be the flow of the universe, or the force behind the natural order. Tao is believed to be the influence that keeps the universe balanced and ordered. Tao is associated with nature, due to a belief that nature demonstrates the Tao. The flow of qi, as the essential energy of action and existence, is compared to the universal order of Tao. Tao is compared to what it is not, like the negative theology of Western scholars.. It is often considered to be the source of both existence and non-existence

Te

Tao is also associated with a "proper" attitude, morality and lifestyle. This is intimately tied to the complex concept of Te , or literally "virtue". Te is the active expression of Tao. Taoism generally expresses this as "integrity" or "wholeness". Tao is considered a "way", while Te is the active living, or cultivation, of that "way"

Wu wei

Wu wei is a central concept in Taoism. The literal meaning of wu wei is "without action". It is often expressed by the paradox wei wu wei, meaning "action without action" or "effortless doing". The practice and efficacy of wu wei are fundamental in Chinese thought, most prominently emphasized in Taoism. The goal of wu wei is alignment with Tao, revealing the soft and invisible power within all things. It is believed by Taoists that masters of wu wei can control this invisible potential, the innate yin-action of the Way.

In ancient Taoist texts, wu wei is associated with water through its yielding nature. Water is soft and weak, it is noted, but it can move earth and carve stone. Taoist philosophy proposes that the universe works harmoniously according to its own ways. When someone exerts his will against the world, he disrupts that harmony. Taoism does not identify man's will as the root problem. Rather, it asserts that man must place his will in harmony with the natural universe.

P'u

P'u is translated as "uncarved block" or "simplicity". It is a metaphor for the state of wu wei and the principle of jian It represents a passive state of receptiveness. P'u is a symbol for a state of pure potential and perception without prejudice. In this state, Taoists believe everything is seen as it is, without preconceptions or illusion.

P'u is seen as keeping oneself in the primordial state of tao. It is believed to be the true nature of the mind, unburdened by knowledge or experiences. In the state of p'u, there is no right or wrong, beautiful or ugly. There is only pure experience, or awareness, free from learned labels and definitions. It is this state of being that is the goal of following wu wei.

Jian

The second is jian literally "frugality, moderation, economy, restraint, be sparing", a practice that the Tao Te Ching praises. Ellen M. Chen (1989:209) believes jian is "organically connected" with the Taoist metaphor pu "uncarved wood; simplicity", and "stands for the economy of nature that does not waste anything. When applied to the moral life it stands for the simplicity of desire."

Spirituality

Taoists believe that man is a microcosm for the universe. The body ties directly into the Chinese five elements. The five organs correlate with the five elements, the five directions and the seasons. Akin to the "neoplatonic maxim" of "as above, so below", Taoism posits that by understanding himself, man may gain knowledge of the universe, and vice versa.

In Taoism, even beyond Chinese folk religion, various rituals, exercises, and substances are said to positively affect one's physical and mental health. They are also intended to align oneself spiritually with cosmic forces, or enable ecstatic spiritual journeys. These concepts seem basic to Taoism in its elite forms. Internal alchemy and various spiritual practices are used by some Taoists to extend life, even to the point of immortality. Immortals, their actions and their relationships with the gods and natural forces form a significant portion of Taoist mythology.

[dizzydoll]

A Time Of Blossoming [Ch'an Tao Chia]
by Stan Rosenthal

1. From the seed there grows the shoot, and then the bud appears, a tight but secure knot, providing its own protection. But the bud does not remain the bud forever, for as the plant matures, the bud begins to struggle to free itself, and with a mighty effort, bursts open to become the flower.

2. From the baby there should grow the child, secure in the environment, which its parents provide. And the baby should grow into the adolescent, who, through maturation, develops into the self actualized adult, safe and secure in the knowledge of his or her own being.

3. It would indeed be wonderful if we lived in a society in which childhood and adolescence were accepted as the time in which the bud appears, and with the tremendous strength with which youth should be endowed, begins to blossom into the flower of self being.

4. What a great joy it would be, if in the process of maturation, we became open to receive experience, just as the blossoming flower receives the summer dew, and became free to accept ourselves for what we are, which is the birthright of every being, just as the life giving warmth of the sun is the right of everything that grows.

5. The society in which we live cannot allow us complete freedom. Indeed, the very nature of man prohibits such a society from ever existing. But this is not to say that we cannot blossom, as does the flower. To become fully alive, to live our lives to the full, complete in our self being, we should accept as a gift, every moment of life.

6. We should use life for the purpose for which it was intended, for living. If we choose to use it for that purpose, the whole of life becomes a time of blossoming.

7. One of the major inhibitors of human blossoming is probably life itself, for in living our lives to the full, we are required to accept that much of what we will experience cannot be described (in terms of our 'I'-ness) as either beautiful or enjoyable. Because of this, we might erect barriers to the reception of experience.

8. One of the experiences which we sometimes deny ourselves is the experience of love. This denial may easily result from our fear of failure because we may fear that by becoming worthy of love, we might win love, and might then become unworthy of it, and thus lose it.

9. Fear of losing love is caused by the fact that we live in a society which values that which it terms 'success', and condemns that which it calls 'failure'. And yet, it can only breed success at the expense of those whom it describes as failures. We must learn to live without this fear of failure, and so allow ourselves to live within our human right...to live. If we erect barriers to the giving and receiving of love, we may, in our folly, inhibit both ourselves and those who love us, from blossoming into true being.

10. We must each look into ourselves, and so find the courage to break free from those concepts of ourselves, which we have allowed to predetermine what we are, what we should be, or what we should remain.

11. We should realize that there is no limit to human potential, other than those limits, which we ourselves set, or allow others to set in our name.

12. When we can accept that there are no limits to our potential, then we can begin to find that energy which changes the whole of man; for just as the parting of the petals which form the bud, allows that bud to blossom into the flower, and thus change the face of the earth, so does the blossoming of one individual into a self actualized being, change the face of mankind.

13. The flowers and trees have sun and rain to aid their blossoming. As human beings, we should have love to help us grow into self being. When we live in true being, self being, we gain the ability to love, for love has many forms. We may gain the ability to change the shape of things with our hands, and thus change the function of those things. This may be an act of love.

14. We may gain the ability, by the use of our hands and minds, to produce things which have beauty, and whose beauty may be shared by those who are open to accept it. The creation of such a thing as has beauty is an act of love. The acceptance of the beauty in a thing which a fellow being has created is an act of love.

15. When we have true being, self-being, in which to dwell, then we may learn to love our fellow beings. When we can see our own imperfections as readily as we can see the imperfections of others, and when we can allow those others their imperfections as readily as we ignore our own, then it may be said that we love our fellow beings.

16. When we can accept others for what they are, rather than try to change them to what we would have them be, or even wish that they are something other than they are, then we perform an act of love.

17. When we have true being, self-being, instead of 'I', then we have the ability to become one with our fellow beings. This we may achieve only by ceasing to consider ourselves as the primary subject, and our fellow beings merely as objects, which are there for us to manipulate. This act, the act of treating others as we would ourselves wish to be treated, this act is an act of love.

18. There is the love between brothers and sisters. This form of love may develop and grow where wise parents do not use one of their offspring as a goad or spur to the other. Treating our offspring as equals is an act of love.

19. As parents, if we can see that our offspring are not mere 'objects', and no less 'subjects' than are we, then we can cease to manipulate them. Thus, we allow the child to become the adolescent, and the adolescent to become the adult, to the mutual benefit of all.

20. In parental love, we should place the development of our offspring before our own wishes, and even before our own self-delusion. When, as parents, we give our offspring the same rights as we give ourselves, and thus prevent ourselves from inhibiting their development, then our offspring may grow into adults, secure in their own self-being, as a result of our act of love.

21. Although all acts of love are transcendental in themselves, most are but minor forms of the greatest act of love, which is therefore the greatest transcendental act, the act of sharing love. Only when we have true being, self being, and so no longer need the 'I', then we are ready to take part in this greatest act of love, for, in sharing love with the one who is our counterpart, and so helping them to become complete, we may ourselves become complete.

22. In the act of sharing love all other forms of love are manifest. We each accept that the other has the same rights as we have ourselves. In the act of sharing love we are not jealous of the achievements or attainments of the other, but welcome and share them as our own, for they are the fruits of our love.

23. In the act of sharing love we are not jealous of the achievements or attainments of the other, but welcome and share them as our own, for they are the fruits of our love.

24. In the act of sharing love we do not look for the imperfections of the other, but accept each other for what we are, in our totality. We look for our own imperfections, and we each ask the other to help us overcome those imperfections; and thus we help each other to grow. Each of us ceases to consider our own 'I'ness, and so banish our own needs in subordination to the needs of the other.

25. In the great transcendental act of sharing love, all other transcendental acts are also encompassed. In such an act as sharing love we may change our function from that of satisfying our own needs to that of satisfying the needs of our counterpart, this is a transcendental act.

26. In such an act as sharing love we may use our bodies to create a beauty which both may share, and so become a part, this is a transcendental act.

27. In such an act as sharing love we cease to consider ourselves as the primary subject, and thus may become one with the other with whom we share our love, this is a transcendental act.

28. In the act of giving love there is no concept of who we are, of what we should be, or of what we should remain, for only in the act of giving love may we receive and so share love.

29. In the act of sharing love, there is no subject and no object, for both are one. This union of the two is a transcendental act.

30. When we give and receive love in the greatest transcendental act of all, then each of us (who is one) and the universe (which is one) unite to become the absolute. Then there is no longer even one, for we are part of it, and it is part of us, all in the now. We thus become free to give and receive that which only true love can provide, Peace and ecstacy, and the freedom to grow.

[NikolaiI]

I couldn't read it all now, Diz, but it's really great. Goes along well with "Why Worry" by Dire Straits... :) So, I did send it just now by e-mail to about 10 people I know, just various people I thought of while looking at my contact list, none of whom are on here Lit-net. When I do have time I'll happily write a post to keep the discussion going.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im2SoltmZEc

[dizzydoll]

Oh Nikolai, I love Dire Straits and for a moment I had forgotten them. Thank you for reminding me. Great song.

The question I wanted to ask is this, we are well aware that Lao Tzu, among others, speaks of the duality in life... you know good/evil, right/wrong, this/that, black/white etc.

So we all understand clearly that there are natural opposites that surround us. Now here is my question, as human beings even tho we are conscious of these opposites I feel they should not consume us any more than they must in our day to day lives. Of course we should be aware of any opposite consequence -- but surely as we LIVE our lives, one day at a time, we should choose ONE of each opposite. iow, I will choose either Good or Evil and I am free to choose which of these I live by, which in my eyes means if I choose one I should "let go" of the other to avoid confusion... so even tho I am very much aware of Evil, if I choose to conduct myself in a Good manner, I dont believe I should give Evil anymore thought once that decision is made. Is that not the correct and best way of looking at any duality? To disregard the opposite once our mind is made up. I just feel if people's minds are constantly considering both sides of the dual it could create a fair amount of confusion in their lives.
Gosh I hope you understand my clumsy English.

Sooo cool Dire Straits has just come to the end as my post came to an end... :biggrin5:

Thanks for that, look forward to your reply.

[NikolaiI]

Oh Nikolai, I love Dire Straits and for a moment I had forgotten them. Thank you for reminding me. Great song.

The question I wanted to ask is this, we are well aware that Lao Tzu, among others, speaks of the duality in life... you know good/evil, right/wrong, this/that, black/white etc.

So we all understand clearly that there are natural opposites that surround us. Now here is my question, as human beings even tho we are conscious of these opposites I feel they should not consume us any more than they must in our day to day lives. Of course we should be aware of any opposite consequence -- but surely as we LIVE our lives, one day at a time, we should choose ONE of each opposite. iow, I will choose either Good or Evil and I am free to choose which of these I live by, which in my eyes means if I choose one I should "let go" of the other to avoid confusion... so even tho I am very much aware of Evil, if I choose to conduct myself in a Good manner, I dont believe I should give Evil anymore thought once that decision is made. Is that not the correct and best way of looking at any duality? To disregard the opposite once our mind is made up. I just feel if people's minds are constantly considering both sides of the dual it could create a fair amount of confusion in their lives.
Gosh I hope you understand my clumsy English.

Sooo cool Dire Straits has just come to the end as my post came to an end... :biggrin5:

Thanks for that, look forward to your reply.

Yea... now I am listening Lady Writer :smile5:

Well as Nietzsche says, anything done in love is beyond Good and Evil! :)

Well - to affirm life in the highest and to reach potential, we have to have a lot of love in our lives. It's not that we have to have love every day or week of our lives; but we can reach more potential when we are able to live in harmony and love. I also think we can gain a lot by connecting with other life; plants, animals, with different personalities and appearances and behaviour. We can reach understanding and communication with them, and probably helps us feel our connection to Life - my friend, named Nietzsche on here, has found he's felt something was wrong inexplicably certain times when his pet turtle had turned over, and he was able to help him aright.

Alan Watts has given us the insight; Good and Evil are only the first step in understanding our moral universe... They are one of the levels where life is seen to be a very serious struggle between the two. On another level of existence it can be seen that they are not absolutes. They are subjective in the way that Evil for me is generally what happens Bad to me, what puts obstalces in my path, makes me suffer and ultimately anything that would kill me.

But we can see first that natural disasters are not in themselves evil; Evil would have to be done by humans, with a malicious intent.

But then we can see a very good example of how what is discord at one level of being is harmony at another - in our bloodstream there are creatures which kill each other (discord). Yet such goings on are undetected to us on our conscious level, we never detect them... and our physical and mental bodies may be functioning completely harmoniously.

It is not to say that the cosmos may be a gigantic living body; but the principle is there and the inference should be able to be made. If we can compare ourselves with tiny particles of energy it can give us a bit of perspective as well - the infinite particles of energy in our universe go on patterns we will never fathom - and run into each other quite a lot! But when they do they just change course or medium, and there is no morality concerned whatsover. It may or may not help us to find courage or endurance but it is a relative thought none-the-less.

I will also add that life and events flow in a natural way. There are may positives, despite increase in some cases, violence has been gradually decreasing in the human game for tens of centuries, and is still doing so. There is definitely a sense found in all cultures of there being more to life than first meets the eye; and some force behind it, and some way to interact with this force, in such a way that events happen in flow, and we can be protected in many situations unexpectedly or unexplainably. In one paradigm, one awareness, of all the forces of the world, it can be seen that everything is in its right place. Watts explained this by saying that even the absurd (for example, the absurdity of a wasted effort, in the shape of a ruined and abandoned car - becomes a beautiful work of art.)

"For in this world nothing is wrong, nothing is even stupid..." Watts says, "The sense of wrong is simply failure to see where something fits into a pattern, to be confused as to the hierarchical level upon which an event belongs—a play which seems quite improper at level 28 may be exactly right at level 96. I am speaking of levrels or stages in the labyrinth of twists and turns, gambits and counter-gambits, in which life is involving and evolving itself —the cosmological one-upmanship which the yang and the yin, the light and the dark principles, are forever playing, the game which at some early level in its development seems to be the serious battle between good and evil. If the square may be defined as one who takes the game seriously, one must admire him for the very depth of his involvement, for the courage to be so far-out that he doesn't know where he started."


Further there is the fact that we are whole beings. I believe this with all my heart and will speak it to my last breath. We are whole just as the universe is whole. It is a fallacy and a destructive lie to teach that we are sinful, that we are weak, that we are deficient by our very nature. Yes, we can come together with other humans in love; and we can reach levels of mystery and truth we which are available to us only through love and companionship - yet also, ontologically, we can see that the self of an individual is the same in quality as the Self of the universe - if there is one. If there is not, though I predict there is, then it still holds up; we, as part of the energy of the universe, have always been, and will always be (at least as long as the universe has been and will be).

As Watts says, "The apple tree is a process which produces apples, the apple tree apples, and in the same way, the universe peoples." We're a completely natural process, one with the universe. The whole universe is contained within us, just as the apple tree is contained within the apple seed. The universe creates us and we create the universe. Scene and viewer arise together, an as the viewer leaves, the scene disappears with the viewer.

How we are whole is the mystery of self-realization. Not that we become whole, but we realize we are whole.

Abstract thought has been useful to us in material science and controlling our external environment. Vivekananda explains that the goal of yoga is the same as the goal of material science, ultimately, to control our universe. The yogi controls the internal universe and once he's attained it, he has control over the external nature as well. The material science will come to the same point, and realize the equally vital importance of the interal universe, which really is the realm of Daoism as well as yoga. Dualities in our abstract thought may come to separate us from the world and others and ourselves. As we say "I went to the mall," or "I am feeling good today," who is the observer, and who is the observed? A separation exists through our abstraction. As we work along in this way, if we are not careful stress wears our body and mind out.

Turning inward, which is also involves by turning toward nature and all it means and is, and turning away from the straight lines and confines of the concrete and modern life - can be a wonderful step toward regaining health, and rightness, and the harmony of Dao an Qi. Too much separation from the Dao causes wayward Qi within us. The organism's (us) natural tendencies and instincts are generally right and true. To return to that at times is a healthy and natural activity, and perhaps inevitable one way or another.

According to some, to many; one of the meaningful attainments, or perhaps it is merely the first step into a new world: is non-duality, unity, or oneness.

Black Elk, "Only when men know they are one with the universe, will they know peace in their souls."

William Blake, "If the doors of perception were cleansed, then man would see all as it is, infinite."

[dizzydoll]

Yes I know all of that which you speak Nikolai but you are missing my point. I was just using Good and Evil as examples. Lets put it another way:

If the weather is Summer, nature doesnt even consider Winter until it is faced with that season. Do you see what I mean?

If we as humans choose, one of the dualities in anything... surely we dont have to even consider the other side [of the choice we've made] once our mind is made up. Lets say I decide something is Right, should I dwell on what is Wrong? If I do, dont you think this would confuse my mind?

After all these are just words which society has called "the duality of life", words mean nothing to nature itself nor to any opposites in nature for that matter.

I hope you get it now. I am not asking about the duality itself, I am asking what role this knowingness should play in our conscious lives?

[NikolaiI]

Yes I know all of that which you speak Nikolai but you are missing my point. I was just using Good and Evil as examples. Lets put it another way:

If the weather is Summer, nature doesnt even consider Winter until it is faced with that season. Do you see what I mean?

If we as humans choose, one of the dualities in anything... surely we dont have to even consider the other side [of the choice we've made] once our mind is made up. Lets say I decide something is Right, should I dwell on what is Wrong? If I do, dont you think this would confuse my mind?

After all these are just words which society has called "the duality of life", words mean nothing to nature itself nor to any opposites in nature for that matter.

I hope you get it now. I am not asking about the duality itself, I am asking what role this knowingness should play in our conscious lives?

I got what you meant I just didn't address it in the way you were asking - but I mean to say no you should definitely not dwell on what is Wrong. It is a waste of time and it may reinforce unhelpful or unproductive thinking. There is a wholeness in the organism (our body as an organism) which comes before the abstracts of duality. This is what I meant to reply.

I see the questions of Right and Wrong and the body of thought devoted to its analysis to be akin to all other such human thought; a good way to develop the mind, good problems to teeth on, but not the final or most important questions.

[dizzydoll]

I got what you meant I just didn't address it in the way you were asking - but I mean to say no you should definitely not dwell on what is Wrong. It is a waste of time and it may reinforce unhelpful or unproductive thinking. There is a wholeness in the organism (our body as an organism) which comes before the abstracts of duality. This is what I meant to reply.

Thank you Nikolai, thats what I figured. We are on the same page on this. I am beginning to get tired of people consistently mentioning the duality in life. Is like such a waste of time.

Please post something else after this comment so when I feel like adding another bit of Dao inspiration it wont be on consecutive posts. I would appreciate it. Good one you've done it.

That Divine Comedy is funny Nikolai, thanks for sharing. See you later I have to log off now.

[NikolaiI]

Thank you, thats what I figured. We are on the same page on this. I am beginning to get tired of people consistently mentioning the duality in life. Is like such a waste of time.

LOL it is what you make it I guess.

Off topic...but this was just before the above quote of Watts, in the same paragraph.

The Divine Comedy. All things dissolve in laughter. And for Robert this huge heap of marvelously incongruous uselessness is a veritable creation, a masterpiece of nonsense. He slams it together and ropes it securely to the bulbous, low-slung wreck of the supposedly chic convertible, and then stands back to admire it as if it were a float for a carnival. Theme: the American way of life. But our laughter is without malice, for in this state of consciousness everything is the doing of gods. The culmination of civilization in monumental heaps of junk is seen, not as thoughtless ugliness, but as self-caricature—as the creation of phenomenally absurd collages and abstract sculptures in deliberate but kindly mockery of our own pretensions. For in this world nothing is wrong, nothing is even stupid. ...

[dizzydoll]

In the Presence ©

At every dawn, monks, farmers, shepherds, fishermen, sailors, joggers, early morning golfers know, that if they choose to, they can stop and treat themselves to witnessing one of nature's unrepeatable performances. At dusk, once again, nature puts on her best for all to see. Those who dare to watch with hearts and minds open, free of the fear of feeling naked, can bathe in the ecstasy of being in the Presence. There is an unmistakable bubble arising from the heart. The heart expands. The fullness of being is experienced. If one is open to it, one is moved to tears.

For centuries non-believers and skeptics have demanded proof, ridiculed those who thirst for a divine experience, and scoffed at their efforts to find That which they yearn for, whatever they think it may be. In the innocence of their ignorance non-believers fail to see that proof is everywhere waiting to be discovered but only by those who dare to take a leap of faith and believe in what cannot be explained but felt in the heart.

What is the Presence?
Where is it found?
Can it be seen?
Can it be heard?
For those who have tasted it, nothing can match its splendor
For those who yearn for it, nothing else can satisfy
It is nowhere
It is everywhere
It is in every sound, every shape, every color
It is in silence, formlessness, and the void
Because it is everything, it is without limits
Because it is infinite, it is always
It is found where night turns into day
And where day turns into night
In the magnificence of the noon day sun
In the comforting shade of the afternoon sun
In the tenderness of a full moon night
And the endless sky of a moonless night
In the moment before a race begins
In the silence at the end of a movie
In the moment just before an airplane lands
In the emptiness at the end of a competition
Upon entering an empty room
Upon saying goodbye to a loved one

In the subtle smile of a newborn child
In the uneven heartbeat of the dying
In the enthusiastic cheers of a curtain call
Above the angry screams of a protest
In a breath of clean, fresh air
Within the constancy of pain

As it is outside
So it is within

The planet is changing. The majesty of nature's response to humanity's ignorance of the Presence in everything leaves the world speechless. The climax of nature's performance is nearing. But despite the drama, in the midst of the performance, the Presence is unchanging. The individual's anchor through the performance, through the drama, is the experience of the Presence within. It is there before, during, and after the climax. It is untouched. It is constant. It is all-powerful.

What need is there to know what is to happen? What need is there to prepare materially? There is no way humanity can thwart the outcome. There is no way to predict when. The only way is to align oneself to the God within, to become the God within.

The unchanging nature of the Presence is unconditional love. When we live in love, when we act from love, we eventually experience that we are that love. Pettiness dissolves into expansion. Feelings of injustice melt into compassion. Anxiety is transformed into peace. There is unflinching courage. There is unquestionable confidence. There is only unconditional love.

This is the calling to human beings of this planet earth: to reclaim the birthright to live in that Presence - to merge with it, to understand that you are no different from it and that all other aspirations, wishes, and personal, as well as community causes, dissolve in the light of this one true desire. It is this desire and only this desire that gives direction, sense and meaning to life in this ocean of existence. It is this desire that fuels human life to return to its origin.

Bask in the light of the Presence.
Become that Love.