If you go to bed with a graphic novel, could you respect yourself in the morning?

[The Comedian]

Howdy Litnetters!

So, I'm giving this public lecture in my one-cow town about comics & graphic novels -- it's not a ground-breaking talk; it's mostly about what they are, how you read them differently than standard prose, and how, like prose books, there's something in the genre for everyone (even the most erudite snob out there).

So, I'm still putting this hootenanny together, and would like some additional input from you. If you were to come to a talk like this (titled something akin to the title of this thread) what would you like to know about the genre? A history of the genre? A reading list? Arguments for its literary relevancy?

Oh, and my costume. . . . should I dress like a fanboy (Green Lantern shirt & co) or like an English professor (jacket, slacks & co); I have both.

Thanks!

:)

[Virgil]

To be honest I haven't read any (unless you count my children's books ;)) but I got a good laugh from the title of this thread. :lol:

[Maryd.]

Actually I was an avid comic reader as a child and I must say I enjoyed them... Mind you, can't for the life of me remember the names. And yes Virgil i got a good laugh out of the title as well.

[Niamh]

how about the professor look with the green lantern shirt under the jacket? blend the two together.

[ClaesGefvenberg]

it's not a ground-breaking talk; it's mostly about what they are, how you read them differently than standard prose, and how, like prose books, there's something in the genre for everyone (even the most erudite snob out there).That sounds interesting, and I for one would like to hear how it turns out.
A history of the genre? A reading list? Arguments for its literary relevancy? All of the above, and then some: How about how the genre is regarded in different cultures? In many parts of the world it is seen as "something for children", which is not always true, while others (the french comes to mind), seem to take it quite seriously, and definitely not something to sneer at.
Oh, and my costume. . . . I think Niamh's idea is great, particularly if you hide the Green Lantern suit under the English professor jacket in the beginning.

And before you ask: Yes, I still do read comics in spite of creeping up on the big 50... But then, I read just about anything I get my hands on...:nod:

Finally: Good luck :wave:

/Claes

[mona amon]

Give me a graphic novel with beautiful artwork and I'll look at it even if it's written in sanskrit! :)

[papayahed]

Why not just wear your pin? Simple, elegant.

[Emil Miller]

I would definitely change the title, which is open to ribald comment.
I am not sure what a Green Lantern shirt is and the pofessorial look may strike a jarring note. However, in view of the subject matter, why not go in a Batman outfit?

[The Comedian]

I would definitely change the title, which is open to ribald comment.

Of course, I gladly invite ribald comment.



I am not sure what a Green Lantern shirt is

Here's what I'm talkin' about:

http://images-3.redbubble.net/img/clothing/backgroundcolor:fafafa/bodycolor:kellygreen/size:large/style:mens/view:preview/1293534-2-green-lantern-t.jpg Nice, eh?


However, in view of the subject matter, why not go in a Batman outfit?

Because there's a lot more to comics than the Dark Knight! -- You, who live in the land where every man and middling lad wears a derby and sport coat and says "quite" every other word, should know great danger of literary stereotype. ;)

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to return to my Bat-cave. :lol:

[LitNetIsGreat]

I think I have only read one graphic novel, a Batman one, The Killing Joke, for a early class once, so if I was attending I would be interested to hear a basic run down first, then perhaps a case for its literary relevancy in particular, as I am still not really convinced about this, followed by any recommended reading in the genre. I think that would be an interesting lecture to hear, good luck with it.

[Scheherazade]

I think if you wear a costume of any kind, it needs to be something that is easily recognisable so that those who do not have any prior experience are able to recognise it as well (I didn't recognise the t-shirt, for example so it would be lost on me if I attended the lecture).

I am assuming that you are going to attract and engage those who have had little interest in the subject not only the already involved fans.

The content sounds good; I am sure there will be lots of visuals as well for those who cannot tell their Green Lantern from their Iron Man. Also, maybe you can have a quiz (T/F?) in the beginning on various heros (eg, common misconceptions?) at the beginning to make it more interactive. (Sorry. The teacher in me runs away with the idea!)

Why not wear a simple black mask to cover your face partially? Most comic heros do... One of their shared traits, I think (but please avoid displaying your unmentionables over your trousers!).

And with a mask, you wouldn't run the risk of being recognised in the town after the talk either! ;)

Good luck!

[The Comedian]

I think I have only read one graphic novel, a Batman one, The Killing Joke, for a early class once, so if I was attending I would be interested to hear a basic run down first, then perhaps a case for its literary relevancy in particular, as I am still not really convinced about this, followed by any recommended reading in the genre. I think that would be an interesting lecture to hear, good luck with it.

Thanks Neely -- that input is valuable and, I think, represents just the type of audience that I will be speaking to. And I think that you bring up a point that I need to seriously address: that "comics" = superheroes. Of course, there are superhero comics just as there are romance novels. But to assume that all comics have superheros would be like assuming the reverse of my analogy as well, that all novels must be romance novels.

This is not to say that one can't do interesting literary things with superheroes -- I believe that artists and writers can (and are), but no literary genre has so limiting a stereotype as comics.


Scher:
The content sounds good; I am sure there will be lots of visuals as well for those who cannot tell their Green Lantern from their Iron Man. Also, maybe you can have a quiz (T/F?) in the beginning on various heros (eg, common misconceptions?) at the beginning to make it more interactive. (Sorry. The teacher in me runs away with the idea!)

Great ideas -- I'm defiantly going to make it interactive (it's a public lecture, so entertainment is a bit more operative here) and your idea of a quiz might be a great lead into the subject matter (even though I am not actually going to talk about superhero comics that much, save to acknowledge their existence.

It's great to hear advice from a fellow teacher.

[Scheherazade]

Great ideas -- I'm defiantly going to make it interactive .You shouldn't be so defiant all the time, you know...

;)

Maybe you can even ask the audience to come up with their own ideas for a comic novel and share it with the group as well?

[The Comedian]

You shouldn't be so defiant all the time, you know...

;)

The H-ll I won't! ;)


Maybe you can even ask the audience to come up with their own ideas for a comic novel and share it with the group as well?

You know, in the graphic novel course that I teach at college, this is more or less their final project. And they have to follow it up with a presentation that details the creative and aesthetic choices that they made.

[Lynne50]

Comedian, Dark Lady was asking for suggestions for Young Adult literature for a Post Graduate course she is taking. I suggested Stitches, a graphic novel that is coming out in Sept. The reviews on Amazon are quite favorable but Dark Lady had never considered graphic novels. Perhaps you could help her with some titles for Young Adults. The one I suggested doesn't have a real uplifting storyline.
Also, I have never read a graphic novel myself, so if you could suggest one to me that I could start with I'd appreciate it. I'm not really into superheroes, though.

[applepie]

A suggestion of ones to read is always welcome:D I think it is an underrated genre, but the majority of people are likely similar to myself in that they don't know where to start. I know if Rich makes his way into this thread, he'll be shaking his head at me, but I really just don't know where to begin. Most people hear "graphic novel" and their brain immediately goes to superheroes and that is where they stop.

Perhaps you should start with the stereotype of the graphic novel, and then talk some about how much broader things are. I do love the idea of the costume, but I agree that it needs to be recognizable. I know of the Green Lantern, but most college kids (I'm guessing that is the age group from reading above) will not get the reference. Unfortunately, you become limited primarily to Batman, Superman, and maybe Ironman when you start looking for things they'll recognize.

Good luck with the talk! It sounds really interesting:)

[The Comedian]

Comedian, Dark Lady was asking for suggestions for Young Adult literature for a Post Graduate course she is taking. I suggested Stitches, a graphic novel that is coming out in Sept. The reviews on Amazon are quite favorable but Dark Lady had never considered graphic novels. Perhaps you could help her with some titles for Young Adults. The one I suggested doesn't have a real uplifting storyline.
Also, I have never read a graphic novel myself, so if you could suggest one to me that I could start with I'd appreciate it. I'm not really into superheroes, though.

Thanks for the feedback Lynne50. I think for young adults especially, hell, even old adults like me, Craig Thompson's Blankets is a nice place to start. It's a 550 page novel written and drawn by Thompson: it's a love story, with themes of coming of age, faith, art, and familial responsibilities as well.

Maus, probably the most well-known graphic novel is one of, if not the best holocaust story around, in any medium. It won the Pulitzer prize in 1992.

Jeff Lemire's Essex County Trilogy is a fabulous, touching, and haunting story of small town life and identity that is clearly written and drawn for adults.

And, if you want to appreciate comics, then Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics is a must read as it details the craft and history of comics that is far more complex, interesting and (yes) humorous than his simple title would lead you to think.

[1n50mn14]

I loooove some comics and Graphic Novels. Only some, mind you... some are utter trash, but it's the same with prose.

Tank Girl
The Watchmen
Scott Pilgrim

^^Favorites.

(Oh, and Wet Moon. How could I forget. Look at this artwork: Wet Moon (http://mooncalfe.deviantart.com/gallery/#Wet-Moon)

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Comedian--In terms of dress, you might want to think about something in between full on fan boy t-shirt and dowdy professor duds. Had you thought of doing the professor look with a comic related tie, or maybe that sort of laid back academic, vaguely bohemian, jacket with casual slacks over a graphic novel t-shirt and/or with a comic themed baseball cap.


I imagine the sort of audience you expect to get for the talk could really affect the way you pitch it. An academic or relatively literate set who read a fair amount but may be slightly resistant to less traditional forms of literature will probably respond well to the title you use for this thread (which is hilarious), but a more general group of older people might not be coming from a place where they're literary snobs skeptical of reading "trashy" stuff like comic books, but rather from a place where they simply think comic books are for kids and don't even know what the term "graphic novel" refers to. Younger people may know what a graphic novel is but not have read widely in the genre or understand the other types of art and literature that have influenced the comics and mangas they enjoy.

I personally read lots of comics as a kid, only a few as an adult (well, comic books that is, I read the strips in the paper almost daily), have skimmed through the odd manga out of curiosity, but am not generally a big reader of the graphic novel. When I have found myself interested in a graphic novel it is usually more as a piece of visual art or visual narrative than from a "literary" perspective. In most such books that I've seen the verbal component seems less compelling or interesting than the visual component, though I do recognize that sometimes the blending of the two is adding a unique dimension to the story. I am coming from the perspective of a lit. scholar in her late twenties with an interest in the interaction between the verbal and the visual arts in an earlier period (I specialize in Medieval and Renaissance poetry, and have done a lot of study in art history and book history as well in that period) so my first thought was that it might be really interesting to use a connection with history. All sorts of people might be interested in how the modern graphic novel either was derived from or parallels the way visual imagery has been employed for narrative purposes historically or the way the visual and the verbal images have been paired in the past. If, for example, you started your talk with a slide juxtaposing an older form of visual narrative or visual verbal pairing (an illuminated page from a heroic scene in a Medieval romance manuscript, an emblematic Renaissance woodcut, a scene from Hogarth's A Rake's Progress etc.) with a page from a graphic novel and then said that these two slides had more to do with each other than people might think, then you've hooked in both the traditionalists who may want to know what a more "established" piece of book history has to do with comic books, and the comic book fans who might be curious as to what their Green Hornet reading may have to do with a longer artistic and literary tradition. If the common ground can be that people throughout the ages have appreciated tales of adventure and visual narrative in many forms then you might reach a good range of people and get them interested in hearing what more you are going to tell them about what they can get out of reading this genre.

Just one suggestion, of course. You may have a very different idea of how you want to frame the discussion. I realized while typing this, however, that I was becoming quite curious about the way the graphic novel genre does or does not link to longer historical traditions. What sort of historic hybrid literary/visual models have comic and other graphic novelists consciously drawn on or referred to? Is manga in fact derived from a longer tradition in Japan of calligraphy paired with drawings? In Japan the writing itself can be so much of a visual art that it seems as though the line between visual and verbal art could be quite thin in many interesting ways, but this is only musing on my part since my actual knowledge of Japanese cultural history is next to nil. Did the advent of film seem to have any sort of direct impact on the rise of the comic/graphic novel genre in the 20th century? If you do have any answers to offer in response to these rather broad cultural questions I would be fascinated to learn from them either here or via pm.

Best of luck with your talk. Have fun with it! :)

[Maryd.]

Speaking of graphic novels... Comics - that is.

Does anyone know the name of a popular comic that was out in the '70's. From memory a fellow always walked around with a smoke hanging out of one side of his mouth and he was a big drinker?

[Petrarch's Love]

Speaking of graphic novels... Comics - that is.

Does anyone know the name of a popular comic that was out in the '70's. From memory a fellow always walked around with a smoke hanging out of one side of his mouth and he was a big drinker?

Mary D.--Could you mean Andy Capp?

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/LeonardoD/andycapp.jpg

[Maryd.]

Thank you Petrarch,

Yes, yes, yes... You are so correct. I have been trying to recall that for years. Thank you, thank you, thank you. (I'd forget the head if it wasn't screwed on)
regards
Mary

[Nightshade]

Well oddness I read an article in the Spring 2009 issue of the PLJ (public library Journal about comics ( well manga really) events and libraies and the importnace of the genre in catching yoiung raders and drwing them into libraries, truly intresting stuff!- well to me anyway. I can get all the correct referance info if you want to access a copy of the article?

[The Comedian]

Well oddness I read an article in the Spring 2009 issue of the PLJ (public library Journal about comics ( well manga really) events and libraies and the importnace of the genre in catching yoiung raders and drwing them into libraries, truly intresting stuff!- well to me anyway. I can get all the correct referance info if you want to access a copy of the article?

Night -- I'd love a copy of the article. And, a related note -- the dean of my college sent invitations to all the area libraries (both public and university) to attend my lecture as comics/graphic novels/manga are genres of increasing interest to libraries for the reasons that you mention above.

[DanielBenoit]

Just the title of this thread made me lol. :lol:

I don't think I've ever touched a graphic novel.

[The Comedian]

I don't think I've ever touched a graphic novel.

And good thing too- you'd probably catch a nasty case of graphicnovelaphilia, which is hard to shake off.

[Nightshade]

Night -- I'd love a copy of the article. And, a related note -- the dean of my college sent invitations to all the area libraries (both public and university) to attend my lecture as comics/graphic novels/manga are genres of increasing interest to libraries for the reasons that you mention above.

Here you go. http://www.cilip.org.uk/specialinterestgroups/bysubject/plj/24/24-1/plj24-1-imrie.htm
I found it intresting anyway :D

[Lynne50]

Comedian Thanks for the wonderful suggestion of Understanding Comics. I thoroughly enjoyed it and now have a better appreciation for the whole genre. I loved how Scott McCloud, the author, showed how comics can range from very realistic ones to totally abstract icons. The book even helped me understand abstract art in a new way. I think I can now view modern art with a little more enthusiasm and I maybe able to discern what the artists are trying to convey( sometimes?). I have a long way to go when it comes to modern art, though.
I do have on order from my library, Blankets and Maus, so when (if) I finish them, I'll let you know.

[Helga]

I used to read all the graphic novels my brothers friend had, mainly the X-men series but a few more and I really like'em. Haven't read them in awhile but my favorite store is the biggest comic book store on the ice (not that big though).

[toni]

And good thing too- you'd probably catch a nasty case of graphicnovelaphilia, which is hard to shake off.

So that's what it's called! :thumbs_up
There are only a few graphic novels I enjoy; and one of them is Neil Gaiman's The Sandman Series. Apart from the highly imaginative plot, the art is detailed and aesthetically done.

X-men (I forgot which particular volume) isn't that bad either. Some comics that have also caught my fancy are Batman and Justice League.

I'm curious if anyone reads Japanese Manga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga)?

[Drkshadow03]

I'm curious if anyone reads Japanese Manga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga)?

I read Bleach for awhile, but stopped following. I tend to watch anime rather than read the Manga.

[crystalmoonshin]

I'm curious if anyone reads Japanese Manga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga)?

I do. Angel Sanctuary simply is the best! I'm reading "Fairy Tail" by Hiro Mishima, creator of "Groove Adventure Rave", but usually, I tend to read shoujo manga...


I read Bleach for awhile, but stopped following. I tend to watch anime rather than read the Manga.

and watch shounen anime.

Bleach BTW, I stopped following after Ichigo and company rescued Rukia. I'm currently in love with ONE PIECE!!! (But I have to stop watching for now to focus on my studies. :()

[The Comedian]

There are only a few graphic novels I enjoy; and one of them is Neil Gaiman's The Sandman Series. Apart from the highly imaginative plot, the art is detailed and aesthetically done.

X-men (I forgot which particular volume) isn't that bad either. Some comics that have also caught my fancy are Batman and Justice League.

I'm curious if anyone reads Japanese Manga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga)?

I've read a little, a few volumes of Bleach and a few others. But not that much, unfortunately.

I love the Sandman Series as well -- of course, graphic novels are not all superhero/fantasy. . .not by a long shot. Some of my favorites: Blankets, Essex County Trilogy, Persepolis, From Hell, & co are just regular, old stories about people trying to get along in the world.

[Drkshadow03]

Bleach BTW, I stopped following after Ichigo and company rescued Rukia. I'm currently in love with ONE PIECE!!! (But I have to stop watching for now to focus on my studies. :()

Whoops! Did I write Bleach for Manga?! It was late last night. I meant Beserk!

I also have read through what was published of Bio-booster Armor Guyver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bio_Booster_Armor_Guyver). Now there was a good manga! Unfortunately they stopped translating it.

[The Comedian]

Comedian Thanks for the wonderful suggestion of Understanding Comics. I thoroughly enjoyed it and now have a better appreciation for the whole genre. I loved how Scott McCloud, the author, showed how comics can range from very realistic ones to totally abstract icons. The book even helped me understand abstract art in a new way. I think I can now view modern art with a little more enthusiasm and I maybe able to discern what the artists are trying to convey( sometimes?). I have a long way to go when it comes to modern art, though.

Yay! Isn't Understanding Comics great? I've seen it used in graphic design and art courses as well as literature and graphic novel courses.


I do have on order from my library, Blankets and Maus, so when (if) I finish them, I'll let you know.

I'd love to hear your thoughts about them.

[higley]

I'm not an avid graphic novel reader on the whole but there's a few that I've read for class or at friends' insistence and really enjoyed. Watchmen was incredible. I couldn't put it down and walk more than ten feet away without coming back to pick it up. I enjoyed the writing as much as the art in that novel.

I also read Persepolis for a world literature class once, and was totally engrossed. I'd just finished Reading Lolita in Tehran so my interest was hooked in the subject. The designs of the pages were pretty nice, and the novel prompted the movie, which was outstanding. My class had a nice raging debate over the narrative reliability, that was fun.

I'd like to read Maus, mainly because of my Jewish family, though none of them came from Germany. Picked up one or two of the Batman novels from the library. That's all. :)

eta: just saw the Understanding Comics recommendation, might pick that up. I don't know much about comics outside the movies but I've always been fascinated by their culture and influence.

[qimissung]

I have tended to be somewhat prejudiced against graphic novels. I work with kids who are reluctant readers and I am concerned that they will prefer something they perceive as easier. I just want them to have one moment of being enveloped in a story and to see...

I am currently tutoring a former student to help her write a good enough essay to pass her state-mandated test. English is not her first language, although she was born in the United States. She loves manga. I truly feel that if she was used to reading 'regular' books she would be more adept at adding detail and color to her writing.

However after reading some of the enthusiastic comments I will try to believe that liking graphic novels does not have to preclude one from 'real' reading.

I will check out "Maus" which I've meant to read for a long, long time. :D

Here's another one for you, Comedian: "American Widow" by Alissa Torres.

[The Comedian]

However after reading some of the enthusiastic comments I will try to believe that liking graphic novels does not have to preclude one from 'real' reading.

I work in education as well, and I have seen that nearly all readers of comics and graphic novels are also readers of other formats. And, regarding reluctant readers (which I also know well) graphic novels can offer complex stories, literary stories that seem "easy." I think part of the trouble is that we, as educators, have a hard time seeing how an image/text combination can deliver sophisticated, layered meaning. . . . because we we're not trained to see these patterns but, rather, those patterns of pure text.

Who knows, maybe a good graphic novel like Maus or Persepolis or Fun Home are like marijuana (in a good sense) -- they're a gateway book into the dangerous, fast-paced world of reading.



Here's another one for you, Comedian: "American Widow" by Alissa Torres.

Thanks! I'll be sure to check it out.

[qimissung]

Thank You for this very insightful information, Comedian. This does help me see graphic novels in a new way.

[mtpspur]

I came late to the party. Personally I wouldn't wear the Green Lantern shirt because it just perpetuates the sterotypes. My wife used to look down on the hobby until she saw an Air Force colonel buying Superman for himself. Looking like the type associated with comics is already is bad enough for me. I have been reading comics steady since 1958 and have earned my scars. I'm actually impressed the medium has been getting more and more respect. Obviously Watchmen, Maus and I'm sure Eisner (The Spirit) will be a part of your speech if you haven't already given it.

Recommend a short history of where we started and how far we have gone. Collected strips like Krazy Kat and Prince Valiant let alone Little Orphan Annie or Alley Oop can be a bridge to where we are now.

Anyway good luck with your presentation. Wish I could hear it. P.S. No secret on Litnet I'm a huge Avengers fan and favorite comic writer is John Ostrander (Grimjack and Suicide Squad and his phenomenal Spectre run).

[The Comedian]

I came late to the party. Personally I wouldn't wear the Green Lantern shirt because it just perpetuates the sterotypes.

You're not late. The big day is tomorrow.

I agree -- I decided to go in my English professor costume: jacket, trousers, sensible tie, shiny shoes, 4-day old scruff (a personal indulgence), neatly combed hair.


I have been reading comics steady since 1958 and have earned my scars. I'm actually impressed the medium has been getting more and more respect. Obviously Watchmen, Maus and I'm sure Eisner (The Spirit) will be a part of your speech if you haven't already given it.

You've been at it much longer than I have -- I envy that. And, yep, I'll certainly address those titles and creators in addition to a host of others.


good luck with your presentation. Wish I could hear it.

Thanks!

[qimissung]

Maybe someone could tape it and you could post it. Anyway, good luck! You'll do fine, I'm sure.