Off to England

[Petrarch's Love]

Hello Lit. Net. friends,

I won some grant money in the spring for research in England which means that I'm departing from LAX for Heathrow on Sept. 10th and in the midst of busy and excited preparations. I'll be there for a little over 7 weeks until 1st November, with a month's stay at Oxford to storm the special collections at the Bodleian, a couple weeks in London, and a few other, shorter stays, including one brief dash across the channel for a weekend in Paris (did I ever mention that academics suffer a great deal :p). It occurred to me that the sophisticated international citizens of lit. net. might have some tips or suggestions for a yank hopping across the pond to conduct literary research. Do you know the best pub in Oxford? Have insight into the must see show on the London Theatre scene this fall? Fear I may miss out on the once in a lifetime experience of visiting an obscure but charming village with unexpected historical attractions? Feel that you need to warn me not to say something that sounds perfectly normal to people in the states but is unforgivably rude in the eyes of the average British citizen? Think it's about time this Renaissance Lit. scholar was informed that "wherefore" may not still be contemporary parlance in Stratford? Any and all friendly suggestions of things to do or not do while I am there are welcome. Also, if any of my lit. net friends happen to be near Oxford or London during the time I'm there and would like to meet up for some tea or a pint, I'd be happy to see you, and if any other lit. net. friends care to send me their postal addresses via pm I'll be happy to drop them a postcard during my trip.

Cheers!

[Lynne50]

Have a safe and wonderful trip! How exciting this must be for you. Take a lot of pictures, can't wait to hear all about it when you get home.

[Niamh]

You must, i repeat must! go see a show in The Globe Theatre in London! :D

[MarkBastable]

http://ezinearticles.com/?Literary-London---On-the-Trail-of-the-Capitals-Most-Famous-Authors&id=952813

http://www.visitlondon.com/maps/itineraries/literary-london-weekend

These might give you a start...

[Emil Miller]

There is an amusing story about the Bodleian library and an American visitor.
After making a tour of the library, the visitor said to a member of staff:

" Say, this is a wonderful place you have here. I wonder if we have any libraries like this in the USA."

" I don't think that's possible sir, the Bodleian was founded before America was discovered." came the reply.

[MANICHAEAN]

OUR MAN IN ENGLAND.
1.Parlance: Don't be surprised if you say something & get some blank stares or a suppressed giggle. Your "pants" are our "trousers", your "trunk" is our "boot" and the US "keep your pecker up" has different connatations in the UK where it means "to keep your spirits/morale up" I hesitate in all due decorum to investigate any further linkage. Another favourite of mine in different Anglo/American meetings I have attended is when you ask the way i.e. the "route" pronounced "raut". We pronounce it "root" as in the subterranean branches of a tree or plant. Apart from that you should do fine as long as you steer clear of Glasgow & Sunderland where the dialect is only intelligible to those born there. When you go to France, play the Englishman abroad and address them slowly and loudly. Everybody south of Calais is assumed to have a rudimentary grasp of the English language if spoken to in a firm manner.
2. Food & Drink: The beer is served at room temperature unless you get an extra cold Guinness in an Irish pub in Kilburn High Road in London. But you will grow to love it & spurn on your return the pee pee d'an served ice cold in the States. The price of beer however is frightening & the pub business is in free fall due to this factor & the ban on smoking. The British as a result of Empire developed a taste for curry which is eaten on average once a week. The standard & range of curry restaurants has attained a meridian splendour and is only surpassed in selective enclaves on the fringes of Bombay.
3. Native Characteristics: Normally reserved from birth as part of our upbringing, we do utter a few monosyllables in response to enquiries. Things have improved from the time when American troops were stationed here prior to D Day and when the general complaint against them was "They are overpaid, oversexed & over here". The $ / Sterling exchange rate has changed all that.
Trust that helps.
Bon Voyage.

[Emil Miller]

OUR MAN IN ENGLAND.
1.Parlance: Don't be surprised if you say something & get some blank stares or a suppressed giggle. Your "pants" are our "trousers", your "trunk" is our "boot" and the US "keep your pecker up" has different connatations in the UK where it means "to keep your spirits/morale up" I hesitate in all due decorum to investigate any further linkage. Another favourite of mine in different Anglo/American meetings I have attended is when you ask the way i.e. the "route" pronounced "raut". We pronounce it "root" as in the subterranean branches of a tree or plant. Apart from that you should do fine as long as you steer clear of Glasgow & Sunderland where the dialect is only intelligible to those born there. When you go to France, play the Englishman abroad and address them slowly and loudly. Everybody south of Calais is assumed to have a rudimentary grasp of the English language if spoken to in a firm manner.
2. Food & Drink: The beer is served at room temperature unless you get an extra cold Guinness in an Irish pub in Kilburn High Road in London. But you will grow to love it & spurn on your return the pee pee d'an served ice cold in the States. The price of beer however is frightening & the pub business is in free fall due to this factor & the ban on smoking. The British as a result of Empire developed a taste for curry which is eaten on average once a week. The standard & range of curry restaurants has attained a meridian splendour and is only surpassed in selective enclaves on the fringes of Bombay.
3. Native Characteristics: Normally reserved from birth as part of our upbringing, we do utter a few monosyllables in response to enquiries. Things have improved from the time when American troops were stationed here prior to D Day and when the general complaint against them was "They are overpaid, oversexed & over here". The $ / Sterling exchange rate has changed all that.
Trust that helps.
Bon Voyage.

Very useful advice and I would underline the fact that the English are rather more conservative than citizens of the USA and, unless they are drunk, are not given to expressing themselves overtly.
In a TV interview with a visiting US personality, the interviewer was surprised when his guest asked him to explain the rules of cricket. Asked why he wanted to know, he said that it would be useful in getting the next buttoned-up Brit he found himself sitting next to on an aircraft to engage in conversation.

[Virgil]

How wonderful Petrarch! I obviously have no tips, but just enjoy yourself. Please do take pictures. :)

[MANICHAEAN]

Brian
Thank you for your concurrence. One of the most civilising characteristics of any race is an ability to poke fun at one's own acknowledged national traits. Evelyn Waugh was so good at it in his novels.
The imminent prospect of Petrarch dropping down into Blighty touched a chord. As a student many years ago, I went on a trip to Perpignan in France with a fellow Brit of the traditional mould called Mike Kenyon. We were put in with about 20 French kids and were housed in a school closed for the traditional summer one month break. Everything was new to us: the language, salads with vinigrette, no tomato sauce or HP, wine, funny shaped bread, garlic, Gaulois cigarettes, squat toilets & horse steaks. The most amusing part was at the conclusion of this holiday, when we all had to line up to be embraced in French fashion by the grizzly senior patron of this enterprise who we were obliged to embrace & kiss on both cheeks. You can well imagine how the alarm at this early stage of our English lives was engendered by the prospect of physical contact with another man transcribing the boundaries of a good British handshake. I duly submitted with as much good grace as I could muster to this foreign ritual and Mike followed modestly, proffering both cheeks. Upon completion, he turned to me and said "Tim, the chap hasn't even shaved!"

[Janine]

Mind thy thou's and thee's (at least while in Stratford)....that is about all I can come up with Petrarch...being a Yankee myself. How wonderful to have won a trip and 7 week stay in England! No one nicer could deserve to go. Like the others before me said, take a lot of photos and post them when you return, so we can all share in your experience. I guess knowing some of your interests, I would say go where Shakespeare hung out. A performance at the Globe would surely be amazing! Have a great time and relax. I am sure when you get there, you will find out many more interesting places to see.

[mono]

Unfortunately, I have no recommendations either, Petrarch's Love, as I have never visited England (hopefully someday), but congratulations, and I hope you have a blast! Take lots of pictures, and I will wait in anticipation for some good stories of your trip! :D

[Scheherazade]

Eeek!

I have just finished reading The Foreign Affairs by Alison Lurie, which is based on American academics' stay in London for a research. You might like to pick it up as a flight-read if you haven't read it already. :D

I am sure you are already familiar with all the tourist attractions I can list here. Just be prepared for lack of sunshine and good food.

Other than that, have fun and good luck! :)

[Virgil]

Just be prepared for lack of sunshine and good food.


I was fascinated by that sentence Scher. ;) I can understand the lack of sunshine. But does the adjective "lack" also modify "good food?" Are you saying: Be prepared for the good food or be prepared for the lack of good food? There's a huge difference. :p :lol:

[Scheherazade]

Are you saying: Be prepared for the good food or be prepared for the lack of good food? There's a huge difference. :p :lol::p

Since we are talking about the UK, "be prepared for the good food" is a warning one would never issue.

[Virgil]

:p

Since we are talking about the UK, "be prepared for the good food" is a warning one would never issue.

:lol: Well, I'm not going to give my opinion there. But my one trip to England I did enjoy the fish and chips and a pot pie.

[Scheherazade]

:lol: Well, I'm not going to give my opinion there. But my one trip to England I did enjoy the fish and chips and a pot pie.I cannot stand fish and chips usually... All the grease and the batter :sick:

However, last month I had fish and chips at a tiny restaurant and it was very delicious so probably it depends on how it is made but I still think it is one of those dishes that sound simple but very difficult to get right.

I love the Sunday roast with Yorkshire puddings, though.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi all--Thanks to everyone for their advice and well wishes. I'm all prepared now to subsit on fish 'n chips, curry and warm beer, and encounter nothing but people, pale from dearth of sun, who call their pants trousers but are otherwise prone to monosyllables. Hmm...Manichean's story from France has me thinking that the customs that worked so well during my time in Italy may not be quite as welcome in the cold north. Better forget the impulsive embrace/double kiss greeting and get my tut tutting and stiff handshaking into shape. Luckily I'm a rather reserved little academic type, so this shouldn't be too difficult, and I already pronounce the word "route" like "root" (it can be either in the states), so there may be hope for me. :P

Sher--Thanks for the reading recommendation. Maybe I'll look for it to take with me on the plane.

[TheFifthElement]

who call their pants trousers but are otherwise prone to monosyllables.
If you venture north Petrarch you can call pants 'pants'. 'Trousers' is a posh southern word (ergo, presumed as being 'correct' albeit that no southerner I've encountered has ever been able to explain the 'underpants paradox!).



Since we are talking about the UK, "be prepared for the good food" is a warning one would never issue.

Ah, the old British food is rubbish cliche. Tut tut, not very polite now is it. Let's take this thought further. Yes chicken tikka masala and balti are tasteless slop. The sandwich - no potential. Cheddar, Stilton, Double Gloucester, Wensleydale, Cheshire cheese, like eating chewy rubber. Cornish pastie - vomit in pastry. Scones, victoria sponge cake, Bakewell tart, Chelsea buns, Eccles cakes, parkin cake, mince pies, hot cross buns, treacle tart, bread and butter pudding, rhubarb crumble, summer fruit pudding, trifle, banoffee pie, jam roly poly, knickerbocker glory, biscuits - vile. Lancashire hotpot, Steak and Ale pie, pork pie, cheese and onion pie, shepherds pie, cottage pie, apple pie, any pie, bangers n' mash, toad in the hole, fish n' chips (real chips), Beef Wellington, the traditional Sunday roast beef with yorkshire pudding and English mustard, or if you prefer roast lamb with mint sauce or roast pork with apple sauce - yukky! Then there's the sauces: worcestershire sauce, HP sauce, tomato sauce, horseradish. Branston pickle, piccalilli, pickled onions, chutney. Chuck-upney, more like. Arbroath smokies, haggis, rarebit, neaps n' tatties. Disgusting. Then there's the confectionery - kitkats, smarties, aeros, fruit pastilles, rolos, dairy milk, crunchie, wispa, boost, picnic, flake, fudge and chocolate buttons...that'd be everything by Cadbury's, Rowntree MacIntosh (now Nestle) - filth. Not forgetting the English breakfast - the least flavoursome way to start your day, unless you prefer the toasted crumpet. Yep, loads of examples of really rubbish food. The list is endless.

Petrarch - if you can, try and get to the Royal Shakespeare Company in Stratford upon Avon. It's a really atmospheric way to see Shakespeare, they have fantastic actors and a lovely place to boot. Details of what's on: http://www.rsc.org.uk/whatson/WhatsOn.aspx

[prendrelemick]

Read Kate Frost's, Watching the English (the hidden rules of English behavior) before you go.


http://www.jscampus.co.uk/shop/product_display.asp?productid=9780340818862


It could save you from many a faux-pas.

[Virgil]

Since people are recommending books to you Petrarch, here's one I think you would enjoy that I just finished. Credit goes to PrinceMyshkin for recommending it to me. It's called Lavinia by Ursula Le Guin and it takes up The Aeneid from the perspective of Aeneas' second wife Lavinia. It has nothing to do with England but I just know you will enjoy this. Here's the Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Lavinia-Ursula-K-Guin/dp/0151014248.

[Whifflingpin]

"Better forget the impulsive embrace/double kiss greeting "
Dear heart, if we happen to meet while you are over here, then the impulsive embrace/double kiss greeting will be essential, I assure you.

[Janine]

If you venture north Petrarch you can call pants 'pants'. 'Trousers' is a posh southern word (ergo, presumed as being 'correct' albeit that no southerner I've encountered has ever been able to explain the 'underpants paradox!). hahah...I am wondering what they do with the words clamdiggers, capris, peddle-pushers, flairs, etc. It would be interesting to know.




Ah, the old British food is rubbish cliche. Tut tut, not very polite now is it. Let's take this thought further. Yes chicken tikka masala and balti are tasteless slop. The sandwich - no potential. Cheddar, Stilton, Double Gloucester, Wensleydale, Cheshire cheese, like eating chewy rubber. Cornish pastie - vomit in pastry. Scones, victoria sponge cake,
..........flavoursome way to start your day, unless you prefer the toasted crumpet. Yep, loads of examples of really rubbish food. The list is endless.

Petrarch - if you can, try and get to the Royal Shakespeare Company in Stratford upon Avon. It's a really atmospheric way to see Shakespeare, they have fantastic actors and a lovely place to boot. Details of what's on: http://www.rsc.org.uk/whatson/WhatsOn.aspx

Given this run-down of the food, I am sure I would starve or at least come back 10lbs lighter! eeekkk.....are you serious? I did think maybe the pasteries were good, if nothing else. I did hear from my neighbors that mostly they stuck to the fish and chips; they said the other food was outrageously priced and it was mediocre, to say the least. They were far from thrilled with British food.

Petrarch, I just checked out the listings for the Shakespeare company. If you get a chance I would recommend seeing Greg Hicks; he's an amazing actor. He was in the earlier "Fortunes of War" miniseries and he left me with a great impression. Apparently he will be playing the lead roles in A Winter's Tale and Julius Ceasar. Both look amazing; the whole place looks amazing. Just to stand on the same ground that the Bard stood would give me chills. Just to be in Statford, I would feel like I stepped back in time.

I just might take you up on the postcard offer; that was sweet and generous of your to offer. I have had a postcard collection since I was a kid. Malwethian went to Holland and she send me a card from her trip. I really cherish that card; so sweet of her to think of me.

[TheFifthElement]

Given this run-down of the food, I am sure I would starve or at least come back 10lbs lighter! eeekkk.....are you serious?
What, don't you like sandwiches? Hey, food for a cold climate, baby. Believe me, if you were constantly damp and cold you'd soon be reaching for the treacle tart ;)

Yikes! Just realised I omitted bubble & squeak. Tragic. Hey, maybe you've hit on something? Great Britain: diet nation. With obesity climbing at an astonishing rate, we could really clean up! (off to tell the PM...) While we're waiting, why don't you list your favourite national foods, so that I can pick fault too? Only fair now ;)



I did hear from my neighbors that mostly they stuck to the fish and chips; they said the other food was outrageously priced and it was mediocre, to say the least. They were far from thrilled with British food.
Very much depends where they chose to eat. If they ate in pubs then the food would, probably, be reasonably priced but not that good. But it's the same as anywhere, if you find the right places to eat the food will be fine, if you don't it isn't. My husband and I went to Italy a number of years ago and had, in the space of a week, our best and worst pizza ever. There are degrees of quality wherever you go. In my local city centre it's possible to eat very well for less than £10 per person, and there's masses of choice. Britain, as a culture, is a big amalgamation of other cultures, so much of our food is French/Roman/Scandinavian in origin, but there is also the influence of colonial culture as evidenced by the prevalence of the 'curry house' pretty much wherever you live, and we like to try other foods too so there's usually a range; anything from Mongolian to Brazilian, Thai to British!

Also bear in mind that American food is, like chinese food, packed with artificial flavour enhancers, which British food is not due to the general high degree of suspicion over MSG in its many forms. Perhaps that has a lot to do with it.

That being said, UK still has the second best restaurant in the world ....http://www.theworlds50best.com/module/acms_winners?group_id=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Duck

[Emil Miller]

Brian
Thank you for your concurrence. One of the most civilising characteristics of any race is an ability to poke fun at one's own acknowledged national traits. Evelyn Waugh was so good at it in his novels.
The imminent prospect of Petrarch dropping down into Blighty touched a chord. As a student many years ago, I went on a trip to Perpignan in France with a fellow Brit of the traditional mould called Mike Kenyon. We were put in with about 20 French kids and were housed in a school closed for the traditional summer one month break. Everything was new to us: the language, salads with vinigrette, no tomato sauce or HP, wine, funny shaped bread, garlic, Gaulois cigarettes, squat toilets & horse steaks. The most amusing part was at the conclusion of this holiday, when we all had to line up to be embraced in French fashion by the grizzly senior patron of this enterprise who we were obliged to embrace & kiss on both cheeks. You can well imagine how the alarm at this early stage of our English lives was engendered by the prospect of physical contact with another man transcribing the boundaries of a good British handshake. I duly submitted with as much good grace as I could muster to this foreign ritual and Mike followed modestly, proffering both cheeks. Upon completion, he turned to me and said "Tim, the chap hasn't even shaved!"

Well I don't know if she has been to Paris previously but it's certainly different now to the one I first visited in my own misspent youth. I don't think the French smoked anything other than Gauloise or Caporal back then. My hotel was in Montmartre in the Rue Fromentin and was called Hotel Mont Joli, which may have been named after the Mont du Martyr but given the number of ladies of the night in the Boulevarde de Clichy, who would stroll up, take you by the hand and whisper 'Viens avec moi Cherie', it may have had a more risque connotation.
The wine in the bars was mostly Algerian and I drank quite a lot of it during my stay but, luckily, I was able to smoke cigarettes that I had brought from England.
I don't think anyone forgets their first trip to Paris which, for my money, is the greatest city in he world. I hope Petrarch's Love has a great time there.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Good luck with the trip Petrarch's Love, it sounds great, Oxford, London and Paris. It is good to see academics get a lucky break now and then too, well deserved.

I've always wanted to get to Oxford myself actually and have never quite got around to it, I'll get there next year though, and as for Paris, I think I'll quite die for it. I'm busy learning the language so I don't have to be a typical obnoxious Brit abroad when I finally visit the beautiful place, anyway, here is Wilde on Oxford, I thought you might appreciate it for some reason:


Oxford-the home of lost causes and impossible ideals; Matthew Arnold's Oxford-with its dreaming spires and grey colleges, set in velvet lawns and hidden away among the trees, and about it the beautiful fields, all starred with cowslips and fritillaries...Oxford was paradise to me...the enchanted valley, holding in its flowerlet cup all the idealism of the Middle Ages.
(From Hyde's Biography)

Though of course that was about 130 years ago, it has probably changed a little since then.

Some good comments I think about British food from TheFifthElement.:thumbs_up Really though it is hard to try and nail down just what "British food" actually is, as Fifth stated, it is such a mix, though I think the majority of the British public do eat to a mediocre standard compared to the French and the Italians, who surely eat the very best in the world anyway, but there is some good original stuff out there if you are lucky. Get your hands on some quality British mature cheddar, good mature cheddar mind, pay as much as you can for it, you want it to burn the mouth - good stuff, I will tell you.

Like I say though British food is such as mix of different cultures, just the other night I was enjoying some fine Italian food from a good Italian in Sheffield, though I could have eaten from almost any culture I wanted, such is always the choice, even up here in the overlooked north. :p

One word of warning though don't expect good service in any English establishment. I don't think we British have got the idea about service at all yet, it is very hit and miss, and more often miss than hit. If you want good service in England go to a foreign restaurant and you'll get looked after. It's not that the British are really bad, it is just that for me, those little details often go astray. Don't expect all smiles like you probably get in the US anyway, expect a small tut, if you ask for the sauce again, that you already asked for once which they didn't bring the first time. Also expect to have to look around the table for a pot of salt as it is almost guaranteed that the table you are sitting for some reason has as missing salt pot, when all the others haven't -little annoying things like that.

Away from food, I would also second the comment about trying to get down to Stratford upon Avon to see a play and also Shakespeare's house, which is a really weird experience. You are walking along a standard high street with the usual coffee shops, card shops etc, and then all of a sudden is this little Elizabethan house and rose garden just there bang in the middle of it all, it is a very strange sight. The first thing I did was to reach over and touch the house, like it was holy or something...:redface: By the same regards The Globe sounds great, though I have never been there myself as yet.

Anyway, enjoy the trip.

Edit: Oh, and for fish and chips you need to visit the coast, like Whitby for example, it is just not the same otherwise. The only time I eat fish and chips is at the coast, with the salt air and the seagulls and the freshness of it all...

[Janine]

What, don't you like sandwiches? Hey, food for a cold climate, baby. Believe me, if you were constantly damp and cold you'd soon be reaching for the treacle tart ;)

Ok, babe, toss me a tart! :lol:


Yikes! Just realised I omitted bubble & squeak. Tragic. Hey, maybe you've hit on something? Great Britain: diet nation. With obesity climbing at an astonishing rate, we could really clean up! (off to tell the PM...) While we're waiting, why don't you list your favourite national foods, so that I can pick fault too? Only fair now ;) bubble & squeak - is that another eatery? or one of your tasty dishes? Hummm.... I came up with the idea first....it could be a big tourist magnet. My favorite national foods? I actually eat pretty plain myself since my poor stomach can't take on too much spice. I like herbal dishes best; those I can tolerate. I guess just plain American fare is my choice. No way could I come up with a list to compete with yours, Fifth! :lol:


Very much depends where they chose to eat. If they ate in pubs then the food would, probably, be reasonably priced but not that good. But it's the same as anywhere, if you find the right places to eat the food will be fine, if you don't it isn't. My husband and I went to Italy a number of years ago and had, in the space of a week, our best and worst pizza ever. There are degrees of quality wherever you go. In my local city centre it's possible to eat very well for less than £10 per person, and there's masses of choice. Britain, as a culture, is a big amalgamation of other cultures, so much of our food is French/Roman/Scandinavian in origin, but there is also the influence of colonial culture as evidenced by the prevalence of the 'curry house' pretty much wherever you live, and we like to try other foods too so there's usually a range; anything from Mongolian to Brazilian, Thai to British!

Those are good tips. I kind of thought it was where they ate and not the actually food of the entire country they hated. I did hear it was expensive if one did eat well. I would believe you more than my neighbors. They didn't seem to know where to go. They went to visit their son who was doing a few semesters there for college. Hey, maybe they ate on campus, for all I know!:goof:


Also bear in mind that American food is, like chinese food, packed with artificial flavour enhancers, which British food is not due to the general high degree of suspicion over MSG in its many forms. Perhaps that has a lot to do with it.

That being said, UK still has the second best restaurant in the world ....http://www.theworlds50best.com/module/acms_winners?group_id=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fat_Duck


This would actually be to my advantage since MSG makes me direly ill. Maybe I would improve my health moving to the UK and eating their food! I might lose that weight, to boot!

I will check out the link and that restaurant....hey, if people say Britian has such awful food, why is it one sees these period dramas with elaborate layouts of the dining table; they even have to measure the space for the plate and the silverware....the food always looks extraordinary and delicious. Is this just indicative in manions or estates?

[prendrelemick]

Here's a tip.

Don't even try to pronounce,

Gloucestershire
Worcestershire
or Leicestershire.

If you do, remember the "ce" is silent as is the letter immediately infront of those two. Also there is no stress on "shire" which has only one syllable.

Bubble and Squeak, is a dish of leftover boiled (bubbled)vegetables, usually potatoes and cabbage, that are reheated by frying (Squeaked) It's an onamatopoeiac dish .:D

[MANICHAEAN]

Oh halcyon days when Mum used to do an onamatopeiac spotted dick pudding.
The fried fish & chips every Friday in the chippie, wrapped in newspaper, topped with a picked onion.
Tripe cooked in milk, fried gizzards, pigs head soup, brawn, savaloy sausages, whale meat steaks, liver & bacon with brussel sprouts & Oxo gravy, deviled kidneys, stuffed hearts, pigs trotters,
Its all coming back to me.
Bliss it was that very dawn to be alive.

[Emil Miller]

Oh halcyon days when Mum used to do an onamatopeiac spotted dick pudding.
The fried fish & chips every Friday in the chippie, wrapped in newspaper, topped with a picked onion.
Tripe cooked in milk, fried gizzards, pigs head soup, brawn, savaloy sausages, whale meat steaks, liver & bacon with brussel sprouts & Oxo gravy, deviled kidneys, stuffed hearts, pigs trotters,
Its all coming back to me.
Bliss it was that very dawn to be alive.

Not all at one sitting I trust.

[MANICHAEAN]

No, if I remember correctly the average weekly menu in Fulham as a child was something like:
Sunday: Roast beef & Yorkshire Pudding,followed by Bread & Butter pudding.
Monday: Bubble & Squeak topped with HP Sauce.
Tuesday: Bangers & Mash with Colmans Mustard.
Wednesday: Liver & Bacon followed by Semolina.
Thursday: Toad in the Hole followed by Jam Roly Poly.
Friday: Fish & Chips.
Saturday:Welsh Rarebit or Stew.
And you know what Brian? Having just returned back from a trip to Brittany in Northern France where I indulged in such exotics as: Rabbit cooked in a wine sauce, Gigot a la Brettane, Pigeon & cabbage in a flaky pastry crust and a caramel dessert flambled in Grand Marnier, I still appreciate the above.
Presumably you know the story of how Sir Michael Caine requested Anton Mossman Head Chef of the Savoy to stop giving him all those "fancy" dishes and to try & make bread and butter pudding like his Mum used to make. Its so popular, its still on the menu today.
Petrarch. You started one hell of a thread. Sorry it diverted off onto a foodie tangent.All my fault.

[TheFifthElement]

Ok, babe, toss me a tart! :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:


I guess just plain American fare is my choice.
The question is: what is plain old American fare?


I did hear it was expensive if one did eat well.
Yes it will be expensive compared to what you're used to in US. When I was in US I was astonished by the quantity of food in a standard serving. But the US is the land of plenty, whereas UK is a very small island with a big population. I don't think we're self-sufficient in food, so there's the cost of import plus all those EU subsidies we're forking out for, and all our farmers seem to be interested in growing is oilseed rape. But I can understand why your neighbours found it expensive. I think Heston Blumenthal's restaurant (the Fat Duck) is likely to be expensive, and interestingly he, unusually for a British chef, is not adverse to being liberal with the MSG. Probably why his restaurant rates so highly. That, and the snail ice cream. He's a bit odd :D (I bet you don't want to eat there now ;) )


I will check out the link and that restaurant....hey, if people say Britian has such awful food, why is it one sees these period dramas with elaborate layouts of the dining table; they even have to measure the space for the plate and the silverware....the food always looks extraordinary and delicious. Is this just indicative in manions or estates?
Ah that's just for the aristocracy; us commoners have to rely on last weeks veggies and cheese, tripe & jellied eels ;)

[prendrelemick]

Course there was a war on! Manichaean.:p

[MANICHAEAN]

Ah. You remember the whale steaks prendrelemick!
I had a feeling in my water that you were of that epoch.
That & your choice of songs in "Never Ending Story".

[kasie]

Enjoy your time in UK, PL. I'm really sorry some posters, ironic or otherwise, are trying to frighten you with the hoary old myths about British food - it's like the Little Girl with the Curl, when it's good, it's very, very good but when it's bad, it's horrid. As my grandma used to say - You get what you pay for - buy cheap, you get cheap, pay a bit more, you get a better deal for your money.

[Emil Miller]

No, if I remember correctly the average weekly menu in Fulham as a child was something like:
Sunday: Roast beef & Yorkshire Pudding,followed by Bread & Butter pudding.
Monday: Bubble & Squeak topped with HP Sauce.
Tuesday: Bangers & Mash with Colmans Mustard.
Wednesday: Liver & Bacon followed by Semolina.
Thursday: Toad in the Hole followed by Jam Roly Poly.
Friday: Fish & Chips.
Saturday:Welsh Rarebit or Stew.
And you know what Brian? Having just returned back from a trip to Brittany in Northern France where I indulged in such exotics as: Rabbit cooked in a wine sauce, Gigot a la Brettane, Pigeon & cabbage in a flaky pastry crust and a caramel dessert flambled in Grand Marnier, I still appreciate the above.
Presumably you know the story of how Sir Michael Caine requested Anton Mossman Head Chef of the Savoy to stop giving him all those "fancy" dishes and to try & make bread and butter pudding like his Mum used to make. Its so popular, its still on the menu today.
Petrarch. You started one hell of a thread. Sorry it diverted off onto a foodie tangent.All my fault.

As someone who lives off of very small and infrequent portions of food, I am always at a loss to understand how others can eat so much. My food bill at the local supermarket seldom tops more than £20 per week and I often find cooking an imposition. If, like so many others, I am overweight it must be put down solely to my alchohol intake that certainly exceeds the cost of my food. I could talk for hours about the delights of various wines, beers, spirits etc. but my knowlege of foodstuffs is neglible at best.

[Janine]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

So you like, eh? :brow: :lol:


The question is: what is plain old American fare?

Fifth, after I wrote that I was thinking the same thing - our food is an amalgamation of all cultures, really. In fact, most dinners now are Greek and the diner we are going to tonight has a Turkish cook, I believe. More on that diner below....
Italian is big in the states, although I admit I don't eat very much Italian food; Chinese I can't have at all - MSG! Indian food is getting popular; sushi has been popular. Point is in the US you can find all kinds of foods. Maybe seafood is native to the US; such as Lobster in Maine and Salmon in Alaska. Maryland crabcakes must be purely American fare.


Yes it will be expensive compared to what you're used to in US. When I was in US I was astonished by the quantity of food in a standard serving. But the US is the land of plenty, whereas UK is a very small island with a big population. I don't think we're self-sufficient in food, so there's the cost of import plus all those EU subsidies we're forking out for, and all our farmers seem to be interested in growing is oilseed rape. But I can understand why your neighbours found it expensive. I think Heston Blumenthal's restaurant (the Fat Duck) is likely to be expensive, and interestingly he, unusually for a British chef, is not adverse to being liberal with the MSG. Probably why his restaurant rates so highly. That, and the snail ice cream. He's a bit odd :D (I bet you don't want to eat there now ;) )

Yes, indeed about out portions. I can usually make two dinners out of my diner selection at this one diner we frequent. I am going there tonight, just with that thought in-mind, since I need a quick meal for tomorrow night, as well. Ah, yes, the cost of import would be a factor. I didn't think of that fact. Well, I won't be eating at Blumenthal's anytimes soon if I visit the island...eeek...that MSG kills me!

snail ice-cream? ....oh my!:sick:


Ah that's just for the aristocracy; us commoners have to rely on last weeks veggies and cheese, tripe & jellied eels ;)

I sort of figured that. So do they eat royally? The food always looks so incredible in those films. I guess for the common man it's strictly meat and potatoes, or fish and chips.:(

So much for my trip to England. I would have to pack a picnic lunch to last the whole time I am there.

[TheFifthElement]

So you like, eh? :brow: :lol:
I was thinking ooer missus! In proper Carry On fashion!



our food is an amalgamation of all cultures, really.
See, we're not that different really ;)


Maybe seafood is native to the US; such as Lobster in Maine and Salmon in Alaska. Maryland crabcakes must be purely American fare.

There's quite a lot of seafood in UK, being an island and all that. If you like salmon then you'd eat just fine here as Scotland is a pretty hefty salmon producer. So you needn't worry about this:


So much for my trip to England. I would have to pack a picnic lunch to last the whole time I am there.
if you ever decide to visit just ask Lit-net and we'll give you a list of the best fish, Greek and Turkish restaurants, all MSG free, and you'll be just fine ;) Of course you'd have to have fish & chips, but like Neely said always best to have them at the seaside and they're best eaten out of paper (used to be newspaper but that doesn't meet health & safety laws anymore, sadly) :) and if you did venture north I'd be happy to pass you that tart ;)

[Niamh]

PL, you should head in to covent garden and try some of the nice eataries there. :)
Make sure you go see the tower of london.

Oh and here is the Shakespeares globe website if you are interested in seeing something there. :) http://www.shakespeares-globe.org/

[Petrarch's Love]

Petrarch. You started one hell of a thread. Sorry it diverted off onto a foodie tangent.All my fault.

On the contrary, I find this British food debate fascinating. I already only drink tea and never coffee, have a taste for Guiness and other stouts, and have even been known to make Shepherd's pie from an old family recipe, but I am wondering if that will be enough to enable me to survive in this exotic gustatory world I am about to enter? Most of the dishes alluded to on this thread I have at least heard or read of, if not consumed, before--with the exception of "bubble and squeak" which has already been satisfactorily explained--but I am wondering: what is this "HP sauce" that all you Brits seem to be alluding to every other sentence, and will I find this mysterious condiment in plentiful amounts while dining in your demi-paradise?

I am now adding to my list of things to try, very strong cheddar as recommended by Neely (I'm quite fond of cheddar as a rule) and treacle tarts to ward off the damp as prescribed from FifthElement, that staunch defender of English cuisine. To my list of things to not try I am adding snail ice cream as alluded to by FifthElement. Can't help wondering if the latter is some unfortunate fall out from a culinary cold war between the French and the British? If those froggies can give the world cooked snails then England will best them with frozen ones!


"Better forget the impulsive embrace/double kiss greeting "
Dear heart, if we happen to meet while you are over here, then the impulsive embrace/double kiss greeting will be essential, I assure you.

:lol: At least if the snails are frozen, not all the people are. Right! Should I encounter you, Whifflingpin, on a busy thoroughfare, it shall be with open arms. To all other British citizens, only the stiff upper lip and a firm handshake.


Good luck with the trip Petrarch's Love, it sounds great, Oxford, London and Paris. It is good to see academics get a lucky break now and then too, well deserved.

I've always wanted to get to Oxford myself actually and have never quite got around to it, I'll get there next year though, and as for Paris, I think I'll quite die for it. I'm busy learning the language so I don't have to be a typical obnoxious Brit abroad when I finally visit the beautiful place, anyway, here is Wilde on Oxford, I thought you might appreciate it for some reason:


Thank you Neely, I do appreciate the Wilde quote. I like the line "the enchanted valley, holding in its flowerlet cup all the idealism of the Middle Ages." Apart from its commentary on Oxford, it's one of the nicest things I've ever seen expressed about the Middle Ages.


Away from food, I would also second the comment about trying to get down to Stratford upon Avon to see a play and also Shakespeare's house, which is a really weird experience. You are walking along a standard high street with the usual coffee shops, card shops etc, and then all of a sudden is this little Elizabethan house and rose garden just there bang in the middle of it all, it is a very strange sight. The first thing I did was to reach over and touch the house, like it was holy or something... By the same regards The Globe sounds great, though I have never been there myself as yet.

Yes, as many people on here have suggested, I am thinking of trying to get up to Stratford to visit the home of the Bard and take in a play. I'm thinking of trying to see the production of Julius Caesar up there that's ending its run the first weekend I'm in Oxford which, given that its an evening performance, might mean staying a night in Stratford after the performance. So, if anyone has recommendations for inexpensive Stratford accomodations I'm all ears. I already have tickets for As You Like It at the Globe, so I'm guaranteed to get at least some sort of Shakespeare fix while there :D


Well I don't know if she has been to Paris previously but it's certainly different now to the one I first visited in my own misspent youth. I don't think the French smoked anything other than Gauloise or Caporal back then. My hotel was in Montmartre in the Rue Fromentin and was called Hotel Mont Joli, which may have been named after the Mont du Martyr but given the number of ladies of the night in the Boulevarde de Clichy, who would stroll up, take you by the hand and whisper 'Viens avec moi Cherie', it may have had a more risque connotation.
The wine in the bars was mostly Algerian and I drank quite a lot of it during my stay but, luckily, I was able to smoke cigarettes that I had brought from England.
I don't think anyone forgets their first trip to Paris which, for my money, is the greatest city in he world. I hope Petrarch's Love has a great time there.

Thanks, Brian. I have had the enormous good fortune to have been to Paris twice before but, of course, no number of times could ever be enough. I'm looking forward to going again and staying in a lovely little hotel on the left bank. It should be fantastique! (Though I am glad that I am avoiding the Hotel Mont Joli, which hardly sounds like a jolly place for a lady to hang out).



Since people are recommending books to you Petrarch, here's one I think you would enjoy that I just finished. Credit goes to PrinceMyshkin for recommending it to me. It's called Lavinia by Ursula Le Guin and it takes up The Aeneid from the perspective of Aeneas' second wife Lavinia. It has nothing to do with England but I just know you will enjoy this. Here's the Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Lavinia-Ursula-K-Guin/dp/0151014248.

Thanks for the book recommendation, Virg. I'll have to check it out.

[Virgil]

I'm green with envy that you will be able to see so many Shakespeare plays Petrarch. :)

[MANICHAEAN]

Dear Petrarch
The French have sauces: bearnaise, bechamel, hollandaise, remoulade, roux & veloute, just to mention the most well known ones.
The British have two:
1. Tomato Ketchup (if you count it as a sauce) &
2. HP Sauce. A brown sauce condiment produced now by Heinz with 71% of the UK market. Originally known as "Harry Palmers Famous Epsom Sauce" with a picture of The Houses of Parliament on the bottle. Later known in the 1960s & 70s as "Wilsons Gravy" after the wife of the Labour Prime Minister claimed that "if Harold has a fault, it is that he will drown everything in HP sauce".
Mind you in those days we Brits were a bit more stroppy. The first British Minister for the European Common Market when visiting his French counterpart used to take his own sandwiches with him!

[prendrelemick]

If you are going for the mature Chedder you will need Branston Pickle! Remember the name.

[MarkBastable]

If you are going for the mature Chedder you will need Branston Pickle! Remember the name.

Just to introduce a note of caution - and I speak here as a great fan of Cheddar - I would advise that you should not under any circumstances touch Branston Pickle. It is caramelised cat crap.

[MANICHAEAN]

Heresy !
What do you put on your cheddar sandwich?

[MarkBastable]

Heresy !
What do you put on your cheddar sandwich?

Piccalilli (http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/7729/images/7729_MEDIUM.jpg).

[prendrelemick]

Picalilli! Thats just WRONG in so many ways. Ok, it is accepable with boiled ham, just.

But for cheese, there is only Branston.

[TheFifthElement]

But for cheese, there is only Branston.

Not so, for there be also Baxters Tomato Chutney (http://www.baxters.com/products/tomato-chutney.html). Mmmm, delicious :D

It's surprisingly nice on a cheese & ham toastie too (as is Branston Pickle!)

[MANICHAEAN]

Picalilli !!!!!!!!!!!
You will be telling us next you drink Camp coffee.

[Emil Miller]

Thanks, Brian. I have had the enormous good fortune to have been to Paris twice before but, of course, no number of times could ever be enough. I'm looking forward to going again and staying in a lovely little hotel on the left bank. It should be fantastique! (Though I am glad that I am avoiding the Hotel Mont Joli, which hardly sounds like a jolly place for a lady to hang out).

You are right, the girls in the Mont Joli were definitely not the kind one would take home to meet mother.

[kasie]

Not so, for there be also Baxters Tomato Chutney (http://www.baxters.com/products/tomato-chutney.html). Mmmm, delicious :D

It's surprisingly nice on a cheese & ham toastie too (as is Branston Pickle!)

And Baxters Cranberry and Caramelised Red Onion Chutney is pretty good, too. I find Branston too vinegary for my taste.

[TheFifthElement]

Mmm, sounds yummy kasie :D we've not tried that one.

[Nightshade]

OOH I love all thoughs pickles, except the chutney.
But on coming to England- over the next few days will be posting a 5 part blog on recent london experiance ( just got back) .
But on the English, the steryotypes are true, well some of them, whihc is omething I found wierd. There really is Faaar too much talk about the weather. and it can really rain one side of the street and not the other.
Oh and tea. Very important avoid typhoo like the plague its worse than lipton even.
Try and get a Ploughman's sandwhich - not on white bread and without mayo, which is just wrong. never buy sndwhiches from spar, as they tend to be on the stale side, Greggs is great for tea, fairtrade and their cups are larger than standard ( also they are cheaper than standard). will think of more things when I collect my witts. :D

[prendrelemick]

Of course English weather-speak is not really about the weather. It is an invitation to have a chat.

[Janine]

I was thinking ooer missus! In proper Carry On fashion!

Haha...you really made me laugh, Fifth, after our extended discussion on nicknames for woman in the thread that Max started; have you participated? Anyway, 'miss' or 'ms' is good for now. I though Babe sounded good with a tart! Also reminds me of the cute pig movie. Is 'Carry on Fashion' a Scottish phrase? :lol: I wish I could fit in Petrarch's carry-on luggage.....please take me with you...I don't take up much space...


See, we're not that different really ;)

We shouldn't be, since I have direct ancestral roots to Scotland, England and no doubt somewhere along the line, Ireland. I just know my grandmothers on both sides cooked really bland and I was told that was due to our bloodline across the sea.


There's quite a lot of seafood in UK, being an island and all that. If you like salmon then you'd eat just fine here as Scotland is a pretty hefty salmon producer. So you needn't worry about this:

:banana:Yeah for that! I love seafood. I also love salmon. Maybe, if I do make it over there eventually, I will eat a ton of really fresh ocean salmon, unlike the usual inferior lot available and usually offered here - farm raised - eek! Do they have lobster and shrimp up there in Scotland or in England? All I hear about primarily, is this 'Fish and Chips'; now that is fried, right? I don't even know what type fish that is; just that I think it is a white fish - is it cod or flounder? I don't really eat fried food, so that could be slightly problematic.


if you ever decide to visit just ask Lit-net and we'll give you a list of the best fish, Greek and Turkish restaurants, all MSG free, and you'll be just fine ;) Of course you'd have to have fish & chips, but like Neely said always best to have them at the seaside and they're best eaten out of paper (used to be newspaper but that doesn't meet health & safety laws anymore, sadly) :) and if you did venture north I'd be happy to pass you that tart ;)

Sounds good to me. Thanks for the offer. My burning desire is to visit Scotland someday. With family names like Fergusson and Gray I have to make up there eventually. Of course, I realise how common those Scotish names are but still it would be cool to try to track down distant ties and ancestory. Both Greeks and Turks seem to cook with lot of olive oil making saute dishes; at least, the ones in American diners and restaurants do. I had heard of the fish and chips, being sold in a newspaper; maybe I saw that portrayed in a movie. Interesting...glad they switched to plain paper...seems more sensible/sanitary. I can see you us now; eating fish and chips and salmon and tossing those tarts to each other all day long!:nod:

Poor Petrarch, this thread now should be called the UK cooking thread! I better go check my England research to post some links to interesting places; all to redeem myself, for going so far off track here. Sorry, P.


I'm green with envy that you will be able to see so many Shakespeare plays Petrarch. :)

Ditto, so am I. I can't wait to hear all about them and the Globe, when you get back.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Dear Petrarch
The French have sauces: bearnaise, bechamel, hollandaise, remoulade, roux & veloute, just to mention the most well known ones.
The British have two:
1. Tomato Ketchup (if you count it as a sauce) &
2. HP Sauce. A brown sauce condiment produced now by Heinz with 71% of the UK market. Originally known as "Harry Palmers Famous Epsom Sauce" with a picture of The Houses of Parliament on the bottle. Later known in the 1960s & 70s as "Wilsons Gravy" after the wife of the Labour Prime Minister claimed that "if Harold has a fault, it is that he will drown everything in HP sauce".
Mind you in those days we Brits were a bit more stroppy. The first British Minister for the European Common Market when visiting his French counterpart used to take his own sandwiches with him!

Yes HP really is the only thing to have with a traditional English breakfast, tomato sauce if you are a bit weak. I find it impossible to have any bacon or sausage product without the said sauce (or even beans), though I don't eat fry-ups that often at all, no, no I either go for the continental (always with fresh French bread) or skip breakfast entirely, I'm much too much of a Bohemian to clog up my arteries with all that oil, though you have to have a few traditional breakfasts when you are over here; it's the law.

I must warn you about the sausage though, it is a fair chance that it won't be of quality unless you are staying in a really good place, (and probably not even then) I won't eat sausage myself unless I am on first name terms with the butcher. You'll probably end up with a little shrivelled grey lump on your plate, but when in Rome and all that...:nod:, yum, yum, yes, that's what HP sauce if for!!!

[Janine]

Neely, what's HP sauce? Is that anything like Worchershire sauce we serve here in America? I used to use it but now refrain from it - weak stomach. Thank God I don't eat sausage now at all...you make it sound truly delectable.

[Niamh]

HP sauce is brown sauce! great on a cornbeef sambo!!! yumms!

Okay, Petra if you can get trips into the country i'd highly recommend visiting some old manor houses! Of course if you can get on a tour, head south west and see Stongehenge, and Avesbury! :)
In London see, The Tower of London, Tower Bridge, Buckingham palace, covent garden, hyde park, Picadilly Circus, Soho, Museums, nottinghill.... so many places!

[Helga]

what I loved doing in London was just walking around and thinking about the great authors and poets that have been there, both in the distant past and the present. the streets and buildings are beautiful, I even took a picture of a street light.

[LitNetIsGreat]

what I loved doing in London was just walking around and thinking about the great authors and poets that have been there, both in the distant past and the present. the streets and buildings are beautiful, I even took a picture of a street light.

That is beautiful. I will be like that in France and Italy.


Neely, what's HP sauce? Is that anything like Worchershire sauce we serve here in America? I used to use it but now refrain from it - weak stomach. Thank God I don't eat sausage now at all...you make it sound truly delectable.

No, it is not like Worchershire sauce, don't expect a Yorkshireman to have that stuff anyway when we have Henderson's relish: http://www.hendersonsrelish.com/, HP is much thicker, like red sauce ("ketchup") but with more of a kick, bit of pepper and garlic in there. (Incidentally, you simply must have Henderson's on a pie on your visit PL, back me up prendrelemick.) Worchershire? Bit of a faux paux there for those with Bronte(ish) blood, but I will let you off this time...:)

But yes, the average sausage will contain about 40% poor grade pig fat, and will look, quite, quite, grey, you better eat it though PL! But, it can be wonderful if go to the right places, (it is about who you know, not what you know, as my granddad always said, and he was right). The place I go to, when I do, which is not that often, has beautiful herb sausages, an absolute joy, filled with the best meat and chives, but you have to know, you have to live here and endure, and suffer, and then you can eat well. :santasmil

[Janine]

That is beautiful. I will be like that in France and Italy.



No, it is not like Worchershire sauce, don't expect a Yorkshireman to have that stuff anyway when we have Henderson's relish: http://www.hendersonsrelish.com/, HP is much thicker, like red sauce ("ketchup") but....Worchershire? Bit of a faux paux there for those with Bronte(ish) blood, but I will let you off this time...:)

But yes, the average sausage will contain about 40% poor grade pig fat, and will look, quite, quite, grey,.... you have to live here and endure, and suffer, and then you can eat well. :santasmil

Neely, when you say "live here, endure and suffer"....is that like living inside a Dicken's novel? I can just imagine that street food or river rat food...ugh....

Thanks for letting me off the hook about the sauce. I don't like my breakfast with sauce of any kind, thank you! ...and once again, I pass on those sausages....

[kilted exile]

Over this side of the atlantic I have noticed HP referred to as "steak sauce"

[LitNetIsGreat]

Over this side of the atlantic I have noticed HP referred to as "steak sauce"

Oh really? Well that has got a manly sound it, just at the sauce deserves.

I think I read that in the price hike in the last year HP is the one single food item that has gone up more than anything else, (I'm 90% sure it was HP) and it has almost doubled in price in the last year. There are plenty of cheaper brands, but it is just not the same, it never is.

Like just now, I have just opened a supermarket home brand of Camembert cheese, to eat with some crusty bread for supper, and it is, predictably, like rubber, I just can't, and won't eat it, it is going in the bin. You just can't get away with cheap in this country in the taste standards. I really should have known better but the best brand of Camembert was out of stock, so there you have it, not happy with sub-standard stuff. Still the Stilton rescued the night, so panic over.

Oh, I really should be reading something, not waffling on about sauce and cheese, sorry to be a bother...

[MarkBastable]

Over this side of the atlantic I have noticed HP referred to as "steak sauce"

You're thinking of A1, which is similar but not really the same

[Petrarch's Love]

Dear Petrarch
The French have sauces: bearnaise, bechamel, hollandaise, remoulade, roux & veloute, just to mention the most well known ones.
The British have two:
1. Tomato Ketchup (if you count it as a sauce) &
2. HP Sauce. A brown sauce condiment produced now by Heinz with 71% of the UK market. Originally known as "Harry Palmers Famous Epsom Sauce" with a picture of The Houses of Parliament on the bottle. Later known in the 1960s & 70s as "Wilsons Gravy" after the wife of the Labour Prime Minister claimed that "if Harold has a fault, it is that he will drown everything in HP sauce".
Mind you in those days we Brits were a bit more stroppy. The first British Minister for the European Common Market when visiting his French counterpart used to take his own sandwiches with him!

Ah! I see now. All is explained. Sounds as though I shall almost inevitably soon sample some of this "HP" concoction and be able to draw my own conclusions.



No, it is not like Worchershire sauce, don't expect a Yorkshireman to have that stuff anyway when we have Henderson's relish: http://www.hendersonsrelish.com/, HP is much thicker, like red sauce ("ketchup") but with more of a kick, bit of pepper and garlic in there. (Incidentally, you simply must have Henderson's on a pie on your visit PL, back me up prendrelemick.)

Hmm...Yet more exotic sauces to discover. Glad I'll have an additional Yorkshire option in case I want to broaden my British sauce taste horizons beyond the two staples described by Manichaean above.


Yes HP really is the only thing to have with a traditional English breakfast, tomato sauce if you are a bit weak. I find it impossible to have any bacon or sausage product without the said sauce (or even beans), though I don't eat fry-ups that often at all, no, no I either go for the continental (always with fresh French bread) or skip breakfast entirely, I'm much too much of a Bohemian to clog up my arteries with all that oil, though you have to have a few traditional breakfasts when you are over here; it's the law.

I must warn you about the sausage though, it is a fair chance that it won't be of quality unless you are staying in a really good place, (and probably not even then) I won't eat sausage myself unless I am on first name terms with the butcher. You'll probably end up with a little shrivelled grey lump on your plate, but when in Rome and all that...:nod:, yum, yum, yes, that's what HP sauce if for!!!


But yes, the average sausage will contain about 40% poor grade pig fat, and will look, quite, quite, grey, you better eat it though PL! But, it can be wonderful if go to the right places, (it is about who you know, not what you know, as my granddad always said, and he was right). The place I go to, when I do, which is not that often, has beautiful herb sausages, an absolute joy, filled with the best meat and chives, but you have to know, you have to live here and endure, and suffer, and then you can eat well. :santasmil

Goodness, you lot seem very serious about your breakfasts over there for all your aparent honesty regarding the grey quality of the sausage. Glad I know about the HP sauce now since apparently "It's the law" to try this grey sausage adorned matin meal and I've been warned that I'd "better eat it"! Given that a full English breakfast is supposed to be included with both my Oxford and London accommodations it seems likely that I will indeed consume many of them during my weeks there. Seems doubtful that the Oxford Theological college will be dishing up the high quality sausage for yours truly, though, so perhaps I will have to venture out for finer fare on the occasional morning. Otherwise it sounds like HP to the rescue. :nod: Not sure about all this enduring and suffering in order to eat well, though. That makes it sound rather like my culinary experience on this trip may not bear much resemblance to my time in Italy. :goof:

Just when I think that I have the sauces all straight, however, this whole new controversy springs up:




prendrelemick: If you are going for the mature Chedder you will need Branston Pickle! Remember the name.

MarkBastable: Just to introduce a note of caution - and I speak here as a great fan of Cheddar - I would advise that you should not under any circumstances touch Branston Pickle. It is caramelised cat crap.

MANICHAEAN: Heresy !
What do you put on your cheddar sandwich?

MarkBastable: Piccalilli (http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/7729/images/7729_MEDIUM.jpg).

TheFifthElement: Not so, for there be also Baxters Tomato Chutney (http://www.baxters.com/products/tomato-chutney.html). Mmmm, delicious :D

It's surprisingly nice on a cheese & ham toastie too (as is Branston Pickle!)

prendrelemick: Picalilli! Thats just WRONG in so many ways. Ok, it is accepable with boiled ham, just.

But for cheese, there is only Branston.

MANICHAEAN: Picalilli !!!!!!!!!!!
You will be telling us next you drink Camp coffee.

kasie: And Baxters Cranberry and Caramelised Red Onion Chutney is pretty good, too. I find Branston too vinegary for my taste.

Is some form of pickle or chutney considered required for the consumption of a cheddar sandwich? Would simply eating bread and cheese be considered taboo? Will my choice of chutney immediately cause people to leap to judgments concerning my character? I shall have to sample some of those mentioned above and see what I think.


I'm green with envy that you will be able to see so many Shakespeare plays Petrarch. :)


Ditto, so am I. I can't wait to hear all about them and the Globe, when you get back.

I can only say that I would be green with envy of me too. :D Seriously, though, wish you guys could come with, as it would be such fun to have a litnet group Shakespeare watch. In any case, I will be sure to post all about the performances after my trip!

[prendrelemick]

That is beautiful. I will be like that in France and Italy.



No, it is not like Worchershire sauce, don't expect a Yorkshireman to have that stuff anyway when we have Henderson's relish: http://www.hendersonsrelish.com/, HP is much thicker, like red sauce ("ketchup") but with more of a kick, bit of pepper and garlic in there. (Incidentally, you simply must have Henderson's on a pie on your visit PL, back me up prendrelemick.) Worchershire? Bit of a faux paux there for those with Bronte(ish) blood, but I will let you off this time...:)


A relish fit for the gods, from God's own county. Obviously designed to compliment a Waite's meat and potato pie.

[MANICHAEAN]

If you do go to the Globe Theatre in London keep in mind the current Lit Net captivating interest with the foodie angle, but put it in a 16th century context. Food in those days was regulated for the common good and thus restrictions were placed on how many courses one might eat, depending on status. A cardinal was permitted nine dishes at a meal while those earning less than 40 pounds a year were allowed only two courses, plus soup. Of some relief was the fact that since Henry VIII's break with Rome, eating meat on Friday was no longer a hanging offence.
Among the more prosperous there were foods uneaten now: crane, bustard, swan & stork. For poorer people, dark bread and cheese ( no HP or Branston pickle) with a little occasional meat. Vegetables were eaten by those who could afford nothing better. Tea & coffee unknown. There was a penchant for sweetness and even wine was sometimes given an addition of sugar, along with fish, eggs & meats.
Beer was drunk copiously, even at breakfast and even by the pleasure wary Puritans (the ship that took the Puritan leader John Winthrop to New England carried 10,000 gallons of beer and not much else). A gallon a day was the traditional ration for monks. The affluent drank wine by the pint.

[MarkBastable]

It's worth saying, though, that there were two sorts of beer about: what we might call 'real' beer, with a significant alcohol content; and the practically alcohol-free stuff, which was drunk like water, and was known as 'small beer'.

It was drunk like water because you couldn't drink the water. And that led, indirectly, to Dr John Snow discovering the cause of cholera, in Soho, not far from a brewery - for which they named a pub after him on Broadwick Street.

[Janine]

Manichaean, your mention of bread reminds me of these lines from Henry V....

Can sleep so soundly as the wretched slave
Who with a body filled and vacant mind
Gets him to rest, crammed with distressful bread;

distressful bread...ummmm.....

[Petrarch's Love]

Ah yes. The modern Englishman may yet be an enigma to me, but 16th century England I know a fair amount about (enough to know I definitely wouldn't want to be eating there then unless I was a very high end aristocrat). Harking back to an earlier comment about welcoming treacle tarts in the damp, I was thinking that the English have long regarded their eating habits and their climate as closely linked, as evidenced by the 16th century William Harrison's opening to his lengthy description of English food in his time:


The situation of our region, lying near unto the north, doth cause the heat of our stomachs to be of somewhat greater force: therefore our bodies do crave a little more ample nourishment than the inhabitants of the hotter regions are accustomed withal, whose digestive force is not altogether so vehement, because their internal heat is not so strong as ours, which is kept in by the coldness of the air that from time to time (especially in winter) doth environ our bodies.

Since clearly the contributors to this thread are fascinated by food, they may find the rest of Harrison's description interesting since he's attempting to do for his England what you've been doing for yours: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1577harrison-england.html You can click on the link for "Chapter VI: Of The Food And Diet Of The English" to read his take on 16th century English eats.


It's worth saying, though, that there were two sorts of beer about: what we might call 'real' beer, with a significant alcohol content; and the practically alcohol-free stuff, which was drunk like water, and was known as 'small beer'.

I was afraid that sooner or later this thread would begin to "chronicle small beer." I am sure, however, that none of us would stoop to suckle fools. :p I hasten to add mead, cider and, in honor of Falstaff, sack to the list of things people drank to avoid dying from the water.


Manichaean, your mention of bread reminds me of these lines from Henry V....

Can sleep so soundly as the wretched slave
Who with a body filled and vacant mind
Gets him to rest, crammed with distressful bread;

distressful bread...ummmm.....

Janine--The "distressful bread" of that line is likely to be Shakespeare's enlivening of the old latin phrase "panis gravis," used in English as "sad bread." It refers to a poor man's bread that is ill made or hasn't risen the way it should.

[Janine]

old latin phrase "panis gravis," used in English as "sad bread." It refers to a poor man's bread that is ill made or hasn't risen the way it should.

Petrarch, thanks for that tidbit of knowlege...gee, it sounds delicious...

Two thumbs up for Falstaff's sack! We are just discussing him now in the two Henry IV plays. Sack is mentioned quite liberally in both, as I am sure you are well aware of.
Maybe you will meet up with a fat Jack impersonator. That would be fun.

[MarkBastable]

I was afraid that sooner or later this thread would begin to "chronicle small beer." I am sure, however, that none of us would stoop to suckle fools.

Ah. Are you saying that that's a fallacy then? I'm happy to admit that it's one of those things that I seem to have known for so long that I have no iea where I learned it, and have no references to cite. I might well be wrong.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Mark--No. You're quite right about the small beer! Sorry, I was being a bad and absentminded Shakespeare scholar with a geeky sense of humor and not attributing the quote I was playing around with. Your allusion to small beer reminded me of a line in Othello when Iago (always a charmer) refers to women who "suckle fools and chronicle small beer." In the scene he's having a debate about the virtue of women with Desdemona and the point of the small beer line is to say that even if a virtuous woman did exist, she would be a boring person caught up in the little picky details of a fairly tame daily life: keeping track of the household's "small beer" and bringing up foolish children (it' also, as Desdemona points out, a rather weak attack that proves he's having a touch of trouble putting a good woman down). The line "chronicle small beer" just struck me as amusing in the context of our little discussion, since we've been talking about the little details of daily food and drink concerns but, as I said, I would certainly never venture to suggest that a litnetter would suckle fools. :D The pertinent lines for anyone interested:


Othello[/I] 2.1.164-77]IAGO
She that was ever fair and never proud,
Had tongue at will and yet was never loud,
Never lack'd gold and yet went never gay,
Fled from her wish and yet said 'Now I may,'
She that being anger'd, her revenge being nigh,
Bade her wrong stay and her displeasure fly,
She that in wisdom never was so frail
To change the cod's head for the salmon's tail;
She that could think and ne'er disclose her mind,
See suitors following and not look behind,
She was a wight, if ever such wight were,--

DESDEMONA
To do what?

IAGO
To suckle fools and chronicle small beer.

DESDEMONA
O most lame and impotent conclusion!

And clearly I have been guilty of making a most lame and impotent allusion. :nod:

[Janine]

Petrarch, best thing about you going away is, that in the last week, we have seen more of you then usual. It's been awhile and I missed your insightful posts.

That's an interesting quote from Othello, one of my all-time favorite plays; Iago being my favorite enigmatic villan.

[prendrelemick]

Read William Cobbett's "Cottage Economy" for a full account of ale, beer and small beer.
The ale is the proper stuff, the first brewed, for special occasions.

Then you add the more water to the left over malt ,hops etc (the mash) and boil it up, and that makes your beer for every day drinking.

Repeat the process again and you have small beer, fit only for children and women.

In the same chapter he has some interesting opinions on Tea - the ruination of the English working man.

[Janine]

Another book that liberally mentions the brew is Thomas Hardy's Under the Greenwood Tree. If I recall corectly, they had a secret receipe, which they all indulged in and there is a most humorous scene when they (having been the former choir, which has been replaced) sneak into the church and sabotage the new organ....it's an entertaining book.

[Petrarch's Love]

Petrarch, best thing about you going away is, that in the last week, we have seen more of you then usual. It's been awhile and I missed your insightful posts.

That's an interesting quote from Othello, one of my all-time favorite plays; Iago being my favorite enigmatic villan.

Thanks Janine. How sweet of you. I have enjoyed popping in here a little more often myself since this thread can fit conveniently under the category of "useful and necessary trip preparation." I'll have to see if I can fit in some more time for this place when I get back to Chicago in November since I enjoy the interesting posts of all my insightful friends here. :)


Read William Cobbett's "Cottage Economy" for a full account of ale, beer and small beer.
The ale is the proper stuff, the first brewed, for special occasions.

Then you add the more water to the left over malt ,hops etc (the mash) and boil it up, and that makes your beer for every day drinking.

Repeat the process again and you have small beer, fit only for children and women.

In the same chapter he has some interesting opinions on Tea - the ruination of the English working man.

What? Read about beer when I shall very soon be in a position to hop down to a local pub and sample a pint? :lol: Sounds like a fun read. I may check it out.


Another book that liberally mentions the brew is Thomas Hardy's Under the Greenwood Tree. If I recall collectly, they had a secret receipe which they all indulged in and there is a most humorous scene when they (having been the former choir which has been replaced) sabotage the new church organ....it's an entertaining book.

That does sound funny, Janine. I've never read Under the Greenwood Tree sounds like one I should put on my list.

[TheFifthElement]

Is 'Carry on Fashion' a Scottish phrase? :lol:
No; traditional Scottish phrases always involve, in some respects, whisky or Carlsberg Special Brew ;)
In this respect I was referring to that other British Institution, the Carry On movie (http://www.fanpop.com/spots/carry-on-movies) to which the catchphrase 'ooer missus' is accredited.


Do they have lobster and shrimp up there in Scotland or in England? All I hear about primarily, is this 'Fish and Chips'; now that is fried, right? I don't even know what type fish that is; just that I think it is a white fish - is it cod or flounder? I don't really eat fried food, so that could be slightly problematic.
There is lobster and shrimp, but I don't think in Scotland. Lobster is considered a delicacy, you'd pay through the nose for it. More traditional British fayre would be cockles, winkles, mussels and oysters.
The fish in fish n' chips would usually be either cod or haddock and yes it is deep fried, as are the chips. Not healthy, but very tasty especially when liberally doused in salt and malt vinegar. Yum :D


I had heard of the fish and chips, being sold in a newspaper; maybe I saw that portrayed in a movie. Interesting...glad they switched to plain paper...seems more sensible/sanitary.
Ah, I think back to the old days with a fond, teary eye. When the switch came, a nation mourned.


Is some form of pickle or chutney considered required for the consumption of a cheddar sandwich? Would simply eating bread and cheese be considered taboo?
It's not compulsory, but then the cheese used in sandwiches is not generally the best quality cheddar so a nice pickle or chutney helps to lift the flavour. If you were eating cheese & bread (which is permissible) you could go without the chutney, but be prepared to be frowned on ;) Of course no one would say anything directly, but if you notice some disparaging glances and a general muttering around then you've definitely committed a faux pas.


Will my choice of chutney immediately cause people to leap to judgments concerning my character?
Definitely :D


In the same chapter he has some interesting opinions on Tea - the ruination of the English working man.
Ah, tea. Now there's another minefield!

[prendrelemick]

William Cobbett on tea..


32. It must be evident to every one, that the practice of tea drinking must render the frame feeble and unfit to encounter hard labour or severe weather, while, as I have shown, it deducts from the means of replenishing the belly and covering the back. Hence succeeds a softness, an effeminacy, a seeking for the fire-side, a lurking in the bed, and, in short, all the characteristics of idleness, for which, in this case, real want of strength furnishes an apology. The tea drinking fills the public-house, makes the frequenting of it habitual, corrupts boys as soon as they are able to move from home, and does little less for the girls, to whom the gossip of the tea-table is no bad preparatory school for the brothel .

http://www.jbsumner.com/pages/brewinghistory/transcripts/cobbett.html

[MarkBastable]

William Cobbett on tea..


32. It must be evident to every one, that the practice of tea drinking must render the frame feeble and unfit to encounter hard labour or severe weather, while, as I have shown, it deducts from the means of replenishing the belly and covering the back. Hence succeeds a softness, an effeminacy, a seeking for the fire-side, a lurking in the bed, and, in short, all the characteristics of idleness, for which, in this case, real want of strength furnishes an apology. The tea drinking fills the public-house, makes the frequenting of it habitual, corrupts boys as soon as they are able to move from home, and does little less for the girls, to whom the gossip of the tea-table is no bad preparatory school for the brothel .

http://www.jbsumner.com/pages/brewinghistory/transcripts/cobbett.html



Replace the word 'tea' with 'cannabis' and that could be a letter to the Daily Mail.

[Emil Miller]

William Cobbett on tea..


32. It must be evident to every one, that the practice of tea drinking must render the frame feeble and unfit to encounter hard labour or severe weather, while, as I have shown, it deducts from the means of replenishing the belly and covering the back. Hence succeeds a softness, an effeminacy, a seeking for the fire-side, a lurking in the bed, and, in short, all the characteristics of idleness, for which, in this case, real want of strength furnishes an apology.

No pun intended but he's got me off to a tee.

[MANICHAEAN]

Brian
You must stop indulging in humour. 90% of Lit Net, all of the Shakespeare fundamentalists & the Moderator has got you down as confrontational. Dont disappoint them.

[Janine]

Thanks Janine. How sweet of you. I have enjoyed popping in here a little more often myself since this thread can fit conveniently under the category of "useful and necessary trip preparation." I'll have to see if I can fit in some more time for this place when I get back to Chicago in November since I enjoy the interesting posts of all my insightful friends here. :)

I meant it sincerely. I know when people teach they are super busy and sometimes, especially when we are disgusing some play of Shakespeare's, I think it's unfortunate you are not there to add your expertise to the discussion. I highly regard your broad knowledge in that field and others and give you the utmost respect.

I am glad all this talk of food and other things has helped you out. If you go to see Blenheim Palace, be sure and take lots of photos. I would love to go there and see also the interior. It must be something. Part of it is indeed open for tours. Another place I would love to visit is Shepperton Studios, in London, right? Just to think of all the great films that have been shot there. Of course, all of London would hold my interest. I would have to see the Tower of London, just to recall how many Shakespeare characters were sent there, many never to return to life. I loved Niamh's recent tour via photos she took and posted. I think all of the places she saw look fascinating.


What? Read about beer when I shall very soon be in a position to hop down to a local pub and sample a pint? :lol: Sounds like a fun read. I may check it out.

Hhaha...reading about beer? Sounds like more fun sampling it firsthand!


That does sound funny, Janine. I've never read Under the Greenwood Tree sounds like one I should put on my list.

It's an amusing novel; not very long one; sometime you should read it. There is also a TV movie that is quite lovely and beautifully filmed...the young actor (James Murray) playing the romantic lead, Dick Dewey, is handsome and adorable; he also plays Paul Morel's older brother, in a more recent adaptation of Sons and Lovers; Sara Lancashire plays Mrs. Morel. I would highly recommend. Of course, you know the title is after Shakespeare's 'Greenwood Tree' reference.

oops...I meant to write 'correctly' and not 'collectly'...I don't even think there exists a word collectly....oh silly me, bad typist!

[Emil Miller]

Brian
You must stop indulging in humour. 90% of Lit Net, all of the Shakespeare fundamentalists & the Moderator has got you down as confrontational. Dont disappoint them.

As is indeed their entitlement if such be the case. However, if nobody protests at what they perceive to be totallity of agreement, there is a danger that the forum would degenerate into a mutual admiration society of questionable value.

[prendrelemick]

"If there are ten people in a room and they all agree, nine of them needn't be there."

So says my Gran.

[Emil Miller]

"If there are ten people in a room and they all agree, nine of them needn't be there."

So says my Gran.

Grannies know best.

[qimissung]

If you venture north Petrarch you can call pants 'pants'. 'Trousers' is a posh southern word (ergo, presumed as being 'correct' albeit that no southerner I've encountered has ever been able to explain the 'underpants paradox!).



Ah, the old British food is rubbish cliche. Tut tut, not very polite now is it. Let's take this thought further. Yes chicken tikka masala and balti are tasteless slop. The sandwich - no potential. Cheddar, Stilton, Double Gloucester, Wensleydale, Cheshire cheese, like eating chewy rubber. Cornish pastie - vomit in pastry. Scones, victoria sponge cake, Bakewell tart, Chelsea buns, Eccles cakes, parkin cake, mince pies, hot cross buns, treacle tart, bread and butter pudding, rhubarb crumble, summer fruit pudding, trifle, banoffee pie, jam roly poly, knickerbocker glory, biscuits - vile. Lancashire hotpot, Steak and Ale pie, pork pie, cheese and onion pie, shepherds pie, cottage pie, apple pie, any pie, bangers n' mash, toad in the hole, fish n' chips (real chips), Beef Wellington, the traditional Sunday roast beef with yorkshire pudding and English mustard, or if you prefer roast lamb with mint sauce or roast pork with apple sauce - yukky! Then there's the sauces: worcestershire sauce, HP sauce, tomato sauce, horseradish. Branston pickle, piccalilli, pickled onions, chutney. Chuck-upney, more like. Arbroath smokies, haggis, rarebit, neaps n' tatties. Disgusting. Then there's the confectionery - kitkats, smarties, aeros, fruit pastilles, rolos, dairy milk, crunchie, wispa, boost, picnic, flake, fudge and chocolate buttons...that'd be everything by Cadbury's, Rowntree MacIntosh (now Nestle) - filth. Not forgetting the English breakfast - the least flavoursome way to start your day, unless you prefer the toasted crumpet. Yep, loads of examples of really rubbish food. The list is endless.

Petrarch - if you can, try and get to the Royal Shakespeare Company in Stratford upon Avon. It's a really atmospheric way to see Shakespeare, they have fantastic actors and a lovely place to boot. Details of what's on: http://www.rsc.org.uk/whatson/WhatsOn.aspx


I don't know if English food is good, Fifth, but it sure sounds good! The names alone are glorious. I know I would love Bubble and Squeak and Shepherd's Pie. There is a version of both that I eat. My mother made Shepherd's Pie for us when we were growing up. I don't know if it would be recognizable to you as such, but I found it hot, savory, and delicious after a long day of school and play.

And never will I forget the episode of "All Creatures Great and Small" where Tristan volunteered to cook for a week. It turned out his repertoire consisted of Bangers and Mash, and more Bangers and Mash.

Have loads of fun, Petrarch's Love. I'm looking forward to stories and pictures upon your return. Maybe you could blog abut it while you're there.

[Janine]

Petrarch, a thought just came to me; you will have to take photos of all the exotic English delicacies you eat! :lol:

[Petrarch's Love]

Petrarch, a thought just came to me; you will have to take photos of all the exotic English delicacies you eat!

:lol: A brilliant idea, Janine! I shall have to document some of my culinary experiences to share with the litnetters here. No doubt this shall mean that I will soon acquire a reputation among the English as an American with eccentric habits who photographs her food on a regular basis, but one must occasionally embrace eccentricity. :banana:

[MANICHAEAN]

Petrarch
The English are quite fond of eccentrics & we have more than our fair share. The French on the other hand would regard eccentricity as normal behaviour.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi there! Having now been in England for nearly two weeks and got a little internet time, I have revisited our vibrant discussion of British cuisine so that I may warn my fellow US citizens of the horrors they can expect on this side of the pond. Take care, oh dwellers of the land of my birth, for they do smoother everything with a mixture of HP and tomato and they make one eat nothing but bland boiled mutton and gray, mashed vegetables. Oh beware! I have lost weight. I have grown gaunt and faint. I am hardly certain that I shall be able to survive long enough to drag myself to the Bodleian again tomorrow....

I have written an entire blog on the subject so that my fellow Americans can be appropriately wary. Simply click here http://www.online-literature.com/forums/blog.php?b=8955 Here is a preview of the torturous account to come:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/LeonardoD/093.jpg

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi all,

I've started up a blog about my travels around England, which also cleverly features the last surviving wife of Henry VIII. If anyone was interested in seeing my holiday snaps and a few words about what I've been seeing, I'll be updating it as time and internet use permit:

http://katherineparr.blogspot.com/

[MANICHAEAN]

Lucky lion.
Glad you are enjoying it, (the HP sauce notwithstanding, although you do coyly admit to it helping you lose weight)

[Janine]

Hi all,

I've started up a blog about my travels around England, which also cleverly features the last surviving wife of Henry VIII. If anyone was interested in seeing my holiday snaps and a few words about what I've been seeing, I'll be updating it as time and internet use permit:

http://katherineparr.blogspot.com/

Petrarch, I tried to post this message on your blog but I guess you have to join there; so here it is:

Wait, Henry lived in the 1500's; so how could Katherine survive? Is she a ghost? hahah...bye the way, this is Janine from Litnet! Love your blog and thanks for the great post card. Glad you are having a great time; can't wait to see more photos.


Hi there! Having now been in England for nearly two weeks and got a little internet time, I have revisited our vibrant discussion of British cuisine so that I may warn my fellow US citizens of the horrors they can expect on this side of the pond. Take care, oh dwellers of the land of my birth, for they do smoother everything with a mixture of HP and tomato and they make one eat nothing but bland boiled mutton and gray, mashed vegetables. Oh beware! I have lost weight. I have grown gaunt and faint. I am hardly certain that I shall be able to survive long enough to drag myself to the Bodleian again tomorrow....

I have written an entire blog on the subject so that my fellow Americans can be appropriately wary. Simply click here http://www.online-literature.com/forums/blog.php?b=8955 Here is a preview of the torturous account to come:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/LeonardoD/093.jpg

Oh my gosh; I just found this photo...you don't look too gaunt to me...I think you look lovely! Love your necklace, jewelry and dress. I didn't see the culinary delights section in your blog. I will have to preview that now. I guess you are now referring to your blog on this forum. Can't wait to read it. hahah...food sounds yummy.....NOT!!!

[Virgil]

Hi Petrarch. I got your postcard. Thank you. :))

Janine, I was able to post in her blog.

[Janine]

Hi Petrarch. I got your postcard. Thank you. :))

Janine, I was able to post in her blog.

Which one? The other one independent of Litnet? It said my post failed...I didn't know why but I didn't sign up for the sight. I just used anonoymous.

[Virgil]

Which one? The other one independent of Litnet? It said my post failed...I didn't know why but I didn't sign up for the sight. I just used anonoymous.

The independent one. I was able to. :p

[SleepyWitch]

You must, i repeat must! go see a show in The Globe Theatre in London! :D

I second that!