Jack Kerouac - The Dharma Bums

[Indian Boy]

Has anybody read "The Dharma Bums" by Jack Kerouac? I'm about half way through the book but I'm not sure I like it. I've read "On the Road" by Kerouac, and that book really inspired me. At the risk of stating the obvious after reading On the Road I remember having this fascination with car trips across the United States no matter where or when. I actually did cross country trips and pretty much blamed it all on On the Road. That book also had a sense of mystical generation, a sense of real time adventure. In my opinion The Dharma Bums lacks all of that. To state it simply, I find it boring. A guy at the book store recommended it to me basically saying, "if you liked On the Road then you'll like Dharma Bums." I couldn't disagree more. I've recommended On the Road to many friends and never heard anybody complain afterwards. I wouldn't recommend Dharma Bums to anybody. I think I'd recommend "Captain's Courageous" before I did! LOL! Anyway, I was just looking for some other opinions on The Dharma Bums.

[PeterL]

If you don't like Dharma Bums don't worry about it. Personally, I prefer it to {i}On the Road[/i].

[Indian Boy]

Peter, I was hoping for a little more of an opinion. In other words, why do you like Dharma Bums over On the Road? What about Dharma Bums did you like? I personally felt like the story in Dharma Bums was ok, but the characters were somewhat flat.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I also prefer Dharma Bums to On the Road, in fact I think it is his best novel.

[Paulclem]

The title is misleading. It should be called the Hedonism Bums. There's not much dharma in there.

[Desolation]

I can't really remember much about The Dharma Bums...I think that I really liked it. I thought it was very well-written, and peaceful.

If I were you, I'd look into Visions of Cody which, in my opinion, is Kerouac's best...It's often considered the genuine On the Road. It's very experimental, and is the height of Kerouac's spontaneous prose, but if you're fairly well versed in his style, then I'd imagine it would be an enjoyable read.

[Paulclem]

Dharma Bums

Do you remember his mate who silently ate a banana and called it the Banana Sutra? Or the girl they knew who they told was a Bodhisattva endowing her blessings on them by sleeping with them? I thought it as a good read with references to Dharma, particularly the Western conception of Zen, in there, but no real dharma.

[Mark F.]

Both novels are really different. Dharma Bums is about a later part of Kerouac's life, new friends and experiences. The way he conveys his discovery of mountain climbing is fascinating, especially if you've tried it out yourself. The book really grew on me as I went along, and his final solitary trip to Desolation Peak is the best part, so keep on reading it and you might find you end up liking it.

[LitNetIsGreat]

The title is misleading. It should be called the Hedonism Bums. There's not much dharma in there.

:nod: yes I thought so too. I remember thinking that I must check Buddhism out after reading this, and I did, though it wasn't quite the same. Even so this book probably inspired me to become the 5% Buddhist that I am today. :santasmil



Both novels are really different. Dharma Bums is about a later part of Kerouac's life, new friends and experiences. The way he conveys his discovery of mountain climbing is fascinating, especially if you've tried it out yourself. The book really grew on me as I went along, and his final solitary trip to Desolation Peak is the best part, so keep on reading it and you might find you end up liking it.

Desolation Peak is the best part I would agree with that for sure. It is a very searching piece of writing, lonely and altogether very different from a lot of his other stuff and worth the book in itself. (He would use this experience in other novels too).

Overall though, despite a frantic read of about 7 or 8 of his novels last year in a few weeks I don't particularly rate Kerouac that highly. I seriously doubt that I would read much more than the odd extract of his material again. His writing strikes me as good in places, but open to criticisms of being a little weak or even pretentious in others. His "experimental" stream of consciousness stuff strikes me as particularly poor and I really wouldn't recommend that, though I am aware that equally others like it, so take your pick.

Personally I suppose that Kerouac speaks to my adolescent side, the side that wants to be free and seek adventures and all of that, but as I am getting older and more feeble, that part of me is well and truly in the minority.

Edit: I suppose you could substitute "feeble" for "refined" but whatever...

[PeterL]

Peter, I was hoping for a little more of an opinion. In other words, why do you like Dharma Bums over On the Road? What about Dharma Bums did you like? I personally felt like the story in Dharma Bums was ok, but the characters were somewhat flat.

OK, The Dharma Bums has substance in addition to people wandering around. The ending was beautiful, especially for anyone who has engaged in any mystical path. The characters are essentially the same crew as in On the Road, but they displayed some signs of depth in DB.

[mal4mac]

Like many nerds I read On the Road in my youth thinking it was a sort of textbook on how to be cool. I found it rather boring and mystifying, but conned by the hype I thought there must be some truth behind the hip mystification of it. So I slogged through the sloppiness, sexism, and sappiness. It didn't make be cool, cool people didn’t read On the Road, they went to the "right" parties I never seemed to get invited to. And "On the road" was never a manual telling you how to get to those. It kind of made me think that drinking too much at the average parties i did get invited to might be cool, when the opposite is true! Tolstoy and Hardy taught me that, and why the "really cool" people I knew were Anti-Kerouacs who didn't drink.

"Allen Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac were the first true nerds who, during a brief window of time, became truly cool. Ginsberg was a physical and intellectual nerd, and Kerouac was an emotional nerd — combined, their forces created a hole in the identity universe into which the distinction between nerd and cool person was exploded into dark matter. In midcentury, all who fell into this roiling cosmic trap became permanently scrambled, identity wise [not permanently I hope!]."

"Reading as an effective form of vision quest was destroyed forever. Teens today don’t bathe in dust motes in their bedrooms wondering who they are or if they’re worthy. So if you’re getting older and still haven’t read On the Road, don’t bother."

There's a reason Kerouac doesn't get into Bloom's canon...

http://thesecondpass.com/?p=1663

[Paulclem]

Neely

yes I thought so too. I remember thinking that I must check Buddhism out after reading this, and I did, though it wasn't quite the same. Even so this book probably inspired me to become the 5% Buddhist that I am today.

Which 5% do you use/ are you - if you don't mind me asking?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Neely

yes I thought so too. I remember thinking that I must check Buddhism out after reading this, and I did, though it wasn't quite the same. Even so this book probably inspired me to become the 5% Buddhist that I am today.

Which 5% do you use/ are you - if you don't mind me asking?

No particular aspect, take the whole and water it down by about 20. It's an interesting philosophy, like many other interesting theories and philosophies, but for me it is nothing much more than this. The lust towards literature, art and knowledge will always be my primary driving force, of course such things under Buddhist philosophy are mere attachments which need, ideally, severing or at least controlling - besides I can't meditate for more than 2 minutes without wanting read or drink something, so I don't. :santasmil

[Paulclem]

No particular aspect, take the whole and water it down by about 20. It's an interesting philosophy, like many other interesting theories and philosophies, but for me it is nothing much more than this. The lust towards literature, art and knowledge will always be my primary driving force, of course such things under Buddhist philosophy are mere attachments which need, ideally, severing or at least controlling - besides I can't meditate for more than 2 minutes without wanting read or drink something, so I don't.

No worries.

It's funny how many people are attracted through books with glancing references to Buddhism like Dharma Bums. Some people I know were attracted by Lobsang Rampa or The Lost Horizon. I first became enamoured of reincarnation through The Devil and All his Works by Dennis Wheatley when I was 10-ish. I also liked The Champions - a sixties spy seris when I was a young kid. They acquired telepathy after having been healed by Tibetan Monks after a crash in the Himalayas.

You manage 2 mins? All at once?

[LitNetIsGreat]

You manage 2 mins? All at once?

OK, you got me, I was exaggerating to sound good; I only managed about 45 seconds until the lust for literature or Belgian ale took over. :redface: Besides I have Yorkshire blood in me: I can't sit around all day when there is stuff to do.

I did read and learn how to spell the Dhammapada though...


1 If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage.:rage:

2 If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leave him.:angel:

[Paulclem]

Besides I have Yorkshire blood in me: I can't sit around all day when there is stuff to do.

Me too for both. I'm from Wakey originally.

My carriage is not far behind me.:wave:

[Indian Boy]

I just finished reading The Dharma Bums. I found that book to be extremely boring and difficult to finish. I'm convinced that it's b/c of Kerouac's prose. His books, On the Road and Dharma Bums are written the same. He uses those long block paragraphs with short choppy sentences. Example - "We walked along under a new moon. It was dark. The stars shined like diamonds all above us. No where did the wind blow. Time stood still until we lit a fire. Then we slept and got up and drove to such and such city. We ate food. We listened to music and danced and cried. It was a blast." And it just goes on and on and on and on for hundreds of pages.

So now I'm gonna say it. I think Kerouac was a terrible writer. His prose are just so long, boring, it's a struggle to get through four pages of that stuff. So why is this guy considered to be so great? I've been reading so many books lately, like books written by Steinbeck, Hemingway, Dan Brown, Tom Wolfe, Tolkein, etc, etc. I'd have so say that I enjoy all of their prose, they flow, they're funny, they're witty, they're interesting, but Kerouac's? Not at all.

[lupe]

Many writters created a myth. But very few lived their own myth.

Kerouac will be remembered for this, not for the quality of his prose.

[Indian Boy]

And what myth would that be exactly? To bum around the country in cars and freight trains? If that's what you're saying then I agree with you that he seems to have truly lived that sort of life. But what difference does that make when we are discussing the quality of a piece of literature? So what if some of it was based on true events--does that mean that his prose are allowed to lack quality?

Fact. I went to the zoo last weekend with my nephew. We saw elephants and lions and tigers, etc. So I can write two hundred pages of junk about that zoo trip, horrible writing, boring, but if I really went to the zoo I should be considered a great writer?

I'm just trying to figure out why I've heard so many people say they're favorite book is On the Road or, "Hey you have to read Dharma Bums, it's amazing, it's really good." Because I've read both and would disagree all day long. I think people just wanna be cool so they say On the Road is awesome, but really deep down, I don't think anybody can tell me they enjoy reading Jack Kerouac. I don't care if he really did drive through Arizona, he was a terrible writer.

[NickAdams]

So now I'm gonna say it. I think Kerouac was a terrible writer. His prose are just so long, boring, it's a struggle to get through four pages of that stuff. So why is this guy considered to be so great? I've been reading so many books lately, like books written by Steinbeck, Hemingway, Dan Brown, Tom Wolfe, Tolkein, etc, etc. I'd have so say that I enjoy all of their prose, they flow, they're funny, they're witty, they're interesting, but Kerouac's? Not at all.

If those qualities are a requirement for you, then there will always be an author that falls short of it, but I'm surprised that you found Dan Brown's prose to contain any of them. His, Dan Brown, subject. is the only thing I find of interest.

To appreciate a text, you have to take it on its own terms, but there's no reason you have to like this or any of Kerouac's works. I find that his style matches his content, like Burroughs and Naked Lunch, but it would help to be familiar with Eastern philosophy.

[mono]

I have read the majority of Jack Kerouac's works, including his poetry, and, I agree, some of it can feel a little challenging to connect with, but it otherwise, to me, envelopes the entire desire for freedom, diverse experiences (whether drug/alcohol-related or not), and travel, with Buddhist undertones (mostly evinced by Ginsberg, but Kerouac took part, too). His writing style, yes, I also agree, reads quite differently from one's typical author, whether of his time or not, and the Beat Poets seemed within their own group, never quite replicated but revered in poetry and prose. To consider Kerouac's style, a reader must consider his not only writing On The Road but literally on the road; he composed many of his works while hitchhiking, train-hopping, in the bed of the hostel he happened to find, in cafes where he by chance saved enough money, etc. This seems a poor excuse for why he could not write allegedly "appropriately" like every other writer, but his fiction accounts for almost always on-the-site writing, partially-fiction-partially-in-the-moment-autobiography; he wrote precisely what came to his mind at that moment, the ever-present present, much what D.H. Lawrence described as the ideal free-verse (or what he called "unrestricted") poetry.

He uses those long block paragraphs with short choppy sentences. Example - "We walked along under a new moon. It was dark. The stars shined like diamonds all above us. No where did the wind blow. Time stood still until we lit a fire. Then we slept and got up and drove to such and such city. We ate food. We listened to music and danced and cried. It was a blast." And it just goes on and on and on and on for hundreds of pages.
. . .
So now I'm gonna say it. I think Kerouac was a terrible writer. His prose are just so long, boring, it's a struggle to get through four pages of that stuff. So why is this guy considered to be so great? I've been reading so many books lately, like books written by . . . Hemingway . . .
I feel surprised that you call Kerouac a "terrible writer" solely based upon that he writes "long block paragraphs with short choppy sentences," when many people describe, as a virtue or vice, Hemingway, whose novels almost entirely consist of the same types of paragraphs and sentences; For Whom the Bell Tolls reads hundreds of pages long of the exact type of literary style. True, more happens in For Whom the Bell Tolls, as opposed to The Dharma Bums or On The Road, in terms of action and perhaps character development, but it seems you dislike Kerouac for more reasons than you listed, and, agreed, his lifestyle feels immensely difficult to connect with and to share some empathy. To each their own; one's literary tastes never measure superior or inferior to another, and I dislike many oft-respected authors, too, for seemingly small reasons, but more for the primary purpose that I cannot connect with them.

[dfloyd]

I listened to unabridged books on cd of On the Road and And the Hippos Were Boiled in their Tanks, co-authored by Kerouac and Burroughs. I found the books interesting, and they told a story of New York and of the US in the years of WWII and just after. Since these years are within my life cycle, I appreciated what Kerouac had to say about them. I'm going to try Dharma Bums next if I can find a cd of it. I listen to most modern or contemporary literature on cd, because it allows me to be doing something else while listening. After all, most modern authors are not a Charles Dickens so the reading of their text by another is not difficult to absorb while driving, cleaning house etc. I have listened to over 400 unabridged books on tape or cd, books I would not otherwise be exposed to if I had to sit down and read them.

But I digress; maybe the poster does not like Kerouac because he didn't live during the years which he wrote about, and consequently doesn't understand the Kerouac works. I have read many posts on this forum against the likes of classical writers. But most of these were anti-someone of note, because of the age or experience of the poster.

[country doctor]

I can't really remember much about The Dharma Bums...I think that I really liked it. I thought it was very well-written, and peaceful.

If I were you, I'd look into Visions of Cody which, in my opinion, is Kerouac's best...It's often considered the genuine On the Road. It's very experimental, and is the height of Kerouac's spontaneous prose, but if you're fairly well versed in his style, then I'd imagine it would be an enjoyable read.

the doc just picked up 'visions of cody' this morning...he hasn't read any jack for about five years...but he has read 'dharma bums', 'on the road' three times, and 'desolation angels' which are among the dulosz legend that kerouac writes about in the foreward...along w/ a few others...

hope to be able to enjoy this one...seen that it's got mixed reviews from folks at amazon...

[ariella]

And what myth would that be exactly? To bum around the country in cars and freight trains? If that's what you're saying then I agree with you that he seems to have truly lived that sort of life. But what difference does that make when we are discussing the quality of a piece of literature? So what if some of it was based on true events--does that mean that his prose are allowed to lack quality?

Fact. I went to the zoo last weekend with my nephew. We saw elephants and lions and tigers, etc. So I can write two hundred pages of junk about that zoo trip, horrible writing, boring, but if I really went to the zoo I should be considered a great writer?

I'm just trying to figure out why I've heard so many people say they're favorite book is On the Road or, "Hey you have to read Dharma Bums, it's amazing, it's really good." Because I've read both and would disagree all day long. I think people just wanna be cool so they say On the Road is awesome, but really deep down, I don't think anybody can tell me they enjoy reading Jack Kerouac. I don't care if he really did drive through Arizona, he was a terrible writer.

Totally agree, in fact I just wrote about it in the 'what are you currently reading' thread but I'm using an iPod touch so I can't copy & paste it on here. But yeah Dharma bums seems like pretentious hype to me, the whole thing is just about how he seems to think he & his friends are so 'enlightened' as they go around sleeping rough and trying to seduce women with silly nicknames such as 'princess'- perfectly ok if it actually had any depth. Nothing particularly exciting happens apart from the fact ray smith decides to come up with some childish 'haikus' which Is supposed to be some profound thing. Obscure Buddhist terms are thrown in, attempting to make it seem deep & meaningful probably EG: Bhikku, boddhisatva, yabyum(WTF) I really have no idea why this book is so hyped, I forced myself to read to page 155 but it was some kind of braindead Reading or something since there wasn't much of a plot and I wasn't fooled by the juvenile attempts to come across as deep & profound. Maybe jack Kerouac should just stick to writing poetry instead of long winding seemingly pointless books lol just wasn't my thing and now I feel like I'll kind of look down on people who claim to be such fans of Kerouac because it seems so overrated & false & now I will definitely not even attemp 'on the road' cause I just don't really think much of Jack Kerouac

[country doctor]

just started chapter two of 'visions' this morning...hit and miss on that first chapter w/ his reaching for some type of proustian style, circa 1950...a better flow to the story and getting into the 'essence' of cody early in chapter two...

[country doctor]

a good read, but the doc's read a kerouac bio, a cassady bio, ginsburg's letters, and plenty of kerouac books and ann charters work...

when you have the foundation, it's interesting...going in cold, and it might not be very good...

[PeterL]

a good read, but the doc's read a kerouac bio, a cassady bio, ginsburg's letters, and plenty of kerouac books and ann charters work...

when you have the foundation, it's interesting...going in cold, and it might not be very good...

When I first read it, I didn't know all the pieces, and it was great. When I reread it a few years ago, it wasn't much of a book. I think that the story has a lfe of its own. It might be the closest thing to a real novel that Kerouac wrote.

[country doctor]

is that dharma bums or 'visions of cody'...the doc's talking about the latter...

[PeterL]

is that dharma bums or 'visions of cody'...the doc's talking about the latter...

I was referring to the former.

[country doctor]

war is impossible when marijuana becomes illegal...
-jack kerouac 'visions of cody'

[country doctor]

the doc just finished 'door wide open: a beat love affair in letters, 1957-58' by jack kerouac and joyce johnson...this one was a surprisingly very enjoyable book and a must-read for kerouac fans...includes commentary by johnson who as a young writer herself fell in love w/ kerouac...real insight into a time right after 'on the road' was published...the fame wore kerouac down to such a point that he claimed that he 'retired from the world'...

ROAR!