The Collector

[Zee.]

Okay so.. wow.

I'm not very far in to this book but it is so, so beautiful..

and intriguing! i have not read a book like this in a very long time.

I have not finished, and i'm nearing half way, but.. yeah, wow.
What fascinates me is the power Miranda has. She has been captured and yet, she has this overwhelming power over the man who has captured her..

Frederick Clegg - i feel sorry for him. I feel like giving him a hug. It feels weird feeling sorry for him. I felt the same "sadness" towards Alex from "A clockwork orange"

That is another thing i noticed. Clegg often uses the word "like" in a similar context to Alex. For example, there's a part near the beginning where Clegg says that Miranda " like stunned me ". There are quite a few instances like this throughout the novel - I don't know, I just found it interesting.


I don't really know the point of this thread.

[Paulclem]

Okay so.. wow.

I'm not very far in to this book but it is so, so beautiful..

and intriguing! i have not read a book like this in a very long time.

I have not finished, and i'm nearing half way, but.. yeah, wow.
What fascinates me is the power Miranda has. She has been captured and yet, she has this overwhelming power over the man who has captured her..

Frederick Clegg - i feel sorry for him. I feel like giving him a hug. It feels weird feeling sorry for him. I felt the same "sadness" towards Alex from "A clockwork orange"

That is another thing i noticed. Clegg often uses the word "like" in a similar context to Alex. For example, there's a part near the beginning where Clegg says that Miranda " like stunned me ". There are quite a few instances like this throughout the novel - I don't know, I just found it interesting.


I don't really know the point of this thread.

I think that's the power of the book. It does change though later. You won't feel sorry for him. That's what makes it very creepy - the sympathy it can evoke for wht turns out to be a complete psycho.

[Zee.]

He's fascinating. Childlike, almost, at the beginning at least. He is illogical and hopeless, but cruel? maybe in his ignorance. But is he ignorant? is he not aware of how he is killing her? she makes a comment about his ability to kill beauty - but I don't know, he is such a confusing character. I'm torn between my feelings about him.

What is absolutely amazing, is how he tries to make sense of a situation that is completely crazy to the reader. I mean - the way we see a scenario in the book, in comparison to how he sees it is really interesting. For instance, there is a part where they are arguing, and she sees him as this cruel, monster, and says terrible things to him. At the end of the argument he makes an affectionate comment about how "couples" argue. He is so deluded and brainwashed by his own fantasies.


Also - Miranda, what an amazing character. I've never read a book that has a character I can identify so strongly with before.

[Paulclem]

He's fascinating. Childlike, almost, at the beginning at least. He is illogical and hopeless, but cruel? maybe in his ignorance. But is he ignorant? is he not aware of how he is killing her? she makes a comment about his ability to kill beauty - but I don't know, he is such a confusing character. I'm torn between my feelings about him.

It's the ordinariness of his character, his ordinary delusions, that pull the reader closer to him. This makes it an uncomfortable read as the situation is played out - the line between ordinary and evil. It reminds me of aspects of the description of the holocaust by Hannah Arendt who described it as the banality of evil.

[Helga]

this is my favourite book, I read it for an English class a few years ago and from the first page I thought it was beautiful and, not to spoil anything, I thought it just got more beautiful even though it got a bit crueler. his love and adoration is so amazing and his life sad. I loved it more when my teacher said that Fowles once said he based it on a real fantasy he had and after reading his biography I now know he had these fantasies about the princess, Margaret I think.

when we were discussing this book and when my teacher was telling us about it everybody thought it was so ugly and mean and disgusting and they all said that I was crazy or stupid because I only saw the beauty, even my teacher said she thought it was so ugly that at a certain part she threw it at the wall she was so mad about how mean he was. But after reading my essay were I focused on the beauty and their relationship she said that she understood but disagreed. I was nervous about writing the essay that way because I thought she wouldn't like it because she disagreed but she did like my point of view.

I loved how he tried to be good enough for her but his accent and his behaviour made him invisible to her. I didn't like the movie though, the actress didn't fit for the role. this is my favourite of Fowles books and it inspired me a lot.

Limajean you said you could identify with Miranda, I always felt like I understood more how Clegg was feeling and why.... Miranda just annoyed me for the most part, she wasn't all bad but something about her couldn't make me feel very sorry for her...

[dfloyd]

with Terrance Stamp I believe. I admired John Fowles as an author. He wasn't all that prolific, but what he did write was good. I believe he passed away a few years ago. It's been so long since I saw the movie that I would like to see it again.

[Zee.]

this is my favourite book, I read it for an English class a few years ago and from the first page I thought it was beautiful and, not to spoil anything, I thought it just got more beautiful even though it got a bit crueler. his love and adoration is so amazing and his life sad. I loved it more when my teacher said that Fowles once said he based it on a real fantasy he had and after reading his biography I now know he had these fantasies about the princess, Margaret I think.

when we were discussing this book and when my teacher was telling us about it everybody thought it was so ugly and mean and disgusting and they all said that I was crazy or stupid because I only saw the beauty, even my teacher said she thought it was so ugly that at a certain part she threw it at the wall she was so mad about how mean he was. But after reading my essay were I focused on the beauty and their relationship she said that she understood but disagreed. I was nervous about writing the essay that way because I thought she wouldn't like it because she disagreed but she did like my point of view.

I loved how he tried to be good enough for her but his accent and his behaviour made him invisible to her. I didn't like the movie though, the actress didn't fit for the role. this is my favourite of Fowles books and it inspired me a lot.

Limajean you said you could identify with Miranda, I always felt like I understood more how Clegg was feeling and why.... Miranda just annoyed me for the most part, she wasn't all bad but something about her couldn't make me feel very sorry for her...

Hey Helga,
yes I identify with her in the way she views things, the way she sees her situation, the fact that she is an artist, and so on. I find it interesting how "calm" she is too.

Clegg - I loved him. I mean, what he did, it wasn't good, there's no justifying it, but he was not mean and he was not cruel. It was wrong for him to catch her, like his butterflies, and keep her like that - but aren't we all trying to do that, to something? in some way or another? She was so beautiful that he had to have her. Collect her. And yeah, it was wrong, but I understand him. I loved how he treated her so well, and with such decency, and how.. although it made no sense, to keep something you loved locked up - it was clear all he wanted was to keep her, as a friend, to talk to and to watch. I really admire how Fowles didn't destroy the story by adding heavy sexual themes in to it. They're definitely there, but they aren't in your face.

I don't know - there is something so beautiful about this book. It has a lot of tenderness to it, and presents the reader with something, that on face value, seems hard to understand, and forces us to put aside certain feelings. The way he acts makes me feel like crying sometimes, i just feel so sorry for him.

[Paulclem]

Hmmm - doesn't he eventually take pornographic photos of his captive? I think what he does outweighs the nice aspects of his character. Is the polite side of him an act covering a creepy, dangerous man?

[Saladin]

I first heard about this novel after watching this to-parts episodes in the tv-show Criminal Minds (The Fisher Kng part I and II). It`s in my readinglist.

[Zee.]

Hmmm - doesn't he eventually take pornographic photos of his captive? I think what he does outweighs the nice aspects of his character. Is the polite side of him an act covering a creepy, dangerous man?

I'm up to part two - Miranda's part. I assume that at the end of Part one..


spoiler..spoiler..spoiler....














she died.

Yes he does take pornographic shots of her. The turn in his character was a bit earlier on i think. When he suddenly made comments about him being the boss, and was saying he was fed up with her, etc.
I mean - what he did was wrong to begin with, but he was decent, at least at the beginning of the novel. His character then took a nasty, and quite unexpected turn.

well, no, i can't say it was unexpected

I was watching a documentary about these two serial killers that built a house in the woods where they kept women as sex slaves. It was absolutely brutal and disgusting.
They called it "Operation Miranda" because they were inspired by The Collector.

[Paulclem]

Through the book I got the impression that Fowles was messing with the reader's mind all he time. Giving a psycho a nice-ness which is undecut by the act and facts. It is an interesting and disturbing book. Beneath the sheen of politeness lurks menace. It might makes you look askance at Mr Good -Mornng-Lovely-Day that you might see on the way to the shops.


I was watching a documentary about these two serial killers that built a house in the woods where they kept women as sex slaves. It was absolutely brutal and disgusting.
They called it "Operation Miranda" because they were inspired by The Collector.

Just imagine the hoo-hah if they had claimed film or video game had inspired them.

Unfortunately they would have found something to be inspired by if not The Collector. I don't believe that kind of act comes from an external source, but is fundamentally fom their own impulses. They are just waiting for an outlet.

[Zee.]

Oh no of course. They were psychopaths. But the whole idea of capturing women and locking them up - they decided to call that "Operation Miranda" and the book yeah, it inspired them. Obviously it wasn't what motivated them. Things run a lot deeper than that.


Hmm, Paul, have you read any other books of his? how do they compare?

[Mathor]

That is another thing i noticed. Clegg often uses the word "like" in a similar context to Alex. For example, there's a part near the beginning where Clegg says that Miranda " like stunned me ". There are quite a few instances like this throughout the novel - I don't know, I just found it interesting.
.

Haha, from habit I say "like" a lot in written things like msn chat and stuff. It pisses most people off.

[Paulclem]

Oh no of course. They were psychopaths. But the whole idea of capturing women and locking them up - they decided to call that "Operation Miranda" and the book yeah, it inspired them. Obviously it wasn't what motivated them. Things run a lot deeper than that.


Hmm, Paul, have you read any other books of his? how do they compare?

I read The Magus, but it was a long time ago. It is very different - set on a Greek Island. it has a pschological theme as an experiment is being run whereby an elaborate play takes place which casts the main character in WW2. I'm afraid I was a lot younger and didn't get the deeper themes, but it was an interesting read.

[Jozanny]

Thanks for bringing this Fowles title to my attention. I need some captivating bed reading, and most of my personal library just isn't suited to bedsore prevention down time. I know that sounds puzzling but I hate typical commercial thrillers and modernists and other difficult writers demand too much attention when I am in repose.

[Zee.]

Thanks for bringing this Fowles title to my attention. I need some captivating bed reading, and most of my personal library just isn't suited to bedsore prevention down time. I know that sounds puzzling but I hate typical commercial thrillers and modernists and other difficult writers demand too much attention when I am in repose.



It is brilliant, I hope you like it

[Helga]

This is my favourite Fowles book but I have also read 'the french lieutenants woman' and 'the aristos' but 'the collector is my favorite. 'the french lieutenants woman' was really good to and I would definitely recommend it, very different but so good. 'the aristos' is better than 'the french lieutenants woman' and a lot shorter, you finish it in one or two days but shows another side of Fowles as an author. I loved his biography it was written by Eileen Warburton and it's very interesting but I read in an article somewhere that when she had gotten to know him there was more she thought was negative about him and his life than positive. I don't get cause he seemed like a normal kid and teenager to me.

I haven't read 'the Magus' but apparently it's a must read for Fowles fans so I guess I'll do it one day.

[Scheherazade]

I have read three of Fowles' books: The Collector, The French Lieutenant's Woman and The Magus. I have to admit that I always think that the most recent one is his best because each time he manages to exceed my expectations.

In his books he seems to experiment with his readers' perception and understanding of the narrative and the characters. Sometimes these are part of the plot as in The Magus, sometimes part of his identity as the writer as in Lieutenant. I think what Fowles is trying to find or convey is that the real life is never as clear cut as it is they are mostly presented in novels. No one character is simply all good or bad... We cannot rely on every single word people in our daily lives say; why do we expect to be able to do that while reading a novel?

Jozanny> Like Helga said, Fowles is really a *must* read; give it a go.

Miranda vs Clegg> It was many, many moons ago I read this book. At the time, I remember being rather upset with Clegg because of the unfair treatment Miranda received from him but in time my opinion has changed. I don't mean to say that what happened to Miranda was fair but I don't think it is very easy to say who is a real victim or whose life is more unfair in this novel.

I believe that Miranda never had a chance from the moment Clegg set his eyes on her but what chance did Clegg have throghout his life? Despite all her idealist views and even intentions, can any of you visualise Miranda showing any romantic interest in someone who was like Clegg?

Not so long ago, I read Engleby by Sebastian Faulks. It is not a very strong book but theme reminded me of The Collector. If you are after a lighter read with similar tension, give it a go.

[Paulclem]

I believe that Miranda never had a chance from the moment Clegg set his eyes on her but what chance did Clegg have throghout his life? Despite all her idealist views and even intentions, can any of you visualise Miranda showing any romantic interest in someone who was like Clegg?

I too read it a long time ago, but the pervading impression that was left was of a man out hunting again. You said that when he clapped eyes on Miranda, she didn't stand a chance, and this is the implication when he sees the next woman.

I think Fowles does a good job of creating sympathy for Clegg, but the final assessment is that he needs to be caught and stopped like any serial killer, and that his actions are not justified by any of his circumstances. He does get nasty in the book, and I think the menace is compounded by his civilised sheen. I found it effective and creepy.

[Helga]

he was learning by experience and wanted to do better next. I don't see him as a bad guy at all he just needs help.

I think it's time to read this book again...

[billl]

I thought The French Lieutenant's Woman was an absolutely fantastic book, and I still envy people who have yet to check it out. However, right after reading that, I picked up another Fowles book called A Maggot and, although I made it to the end, it has kept me from trying him out again (not a good book).

[Scheherazade]

I too read it a long time ago, but the pervading impression that was left was of a man out hunting again. You said that when he clapped eyes on Miranda, she didn't stand a chance, and this is the implication when he sees the next woman.

I think Fowles does a good job of creating sympathy for Clegg, but the final assessment is that he needs to be caught and stopped like any serial killer, and that his actions are not justified by any of his circumstances. He does get nasty in the book, and I think the menace is compounded by his civilised sheen. I found it effective and creepy.I did not mean that Clegg should be forgiven; but should be understood. There is no justification for his actions but still the author does force us to have glimpse of life through Clegg's eyes.

I also remember thinking it interesting that when faced with a threat, we'd all try it all to survive; like Miranda's attempt to seduce.

I think it's time to read this book again...Was just thinking the same thinking. :)
I thought The French Lieutenant's Woman was an absolutely fantastic book, and I still envy people who have yet to check it out. However, right after reading that, I picked up another Fowles book called A Maggot and, although I made it to the end, it has kept me from trying him out again (not a good book).Couldn't agree more regarding TFLW.

What is A Maggot about?

[Paulclem]

I did not mean that Clegg should be forgiven; but should be understood. There is no justification for his actions but still the author does force us to have glimpse of life through Clegg's eyes.

I also remember thinking it interesting that when faced with a threat, we'd all try it all to survive; like Miranda's attempt to seduce.

Yes I see. I think this has happened with a survivor of such a situation in England. Not so much seduction, more compliance and relationship. Quite challenging reading and insightful.

[billl]

What is A Maggot about?

It was a long time ago. I just looked over a plot synopsis, and I vaguely remember some of the important stuff. It might've been more complicated (both structurally and plot-wise) than I was ready for after TFLW. The structural experimentation didn't work for me, in particular, and I think that resulted in me not really caring about the plot maybe... Something like that. It definitely wasn't as beautiful of a story.

I can't really say what it's about without spoiling anything (well, some unusual people go into a town in 18th-century England), but I will say it might be worth checking out if you're ready for the fact that it is unlike TFLW in pretty much every way (at least in the ways that I enjoyed in TFLW, at the time). But that is in no way a recommendation.

I'm just hedging my negative critique--it was a while ago, and I might not have been fair to it.

[Scheherazade]

Quite challenging reading and insightful.All his books seem to be that way.
It might've been more complicated (both structurally and plot-wise) than I was ready for after TFLW. The structural experimentation didn't work for me, in particular, and I think that resulted in me not really caring about the plot maybe..Sounds more like The Magus.

Now... That's got me wondering the chronological order of all these books...

Is the complicated structure a later thing he got into?

[DisPater]

What is A Maggot about?

"A Maggot" is about a lawyer who searches a Duke' son, who disappeared. The novel starts as a usual straight-forward story, but at a point we have a shift and the narration changes in interviews, letters and some newspaper pages, false documents, real documents . It is a great novel, much greater than 'The Collector'. The lawyer hired to investigate the disappearance, represents the historian/judge trying to create a coherent narrative out of problematic testimonies. The maggot represents the historian who intrudes into the past and who alters it to his own desires and needs.

later edit:

The reader is given two versions of the same story, but from two narrators whose reliability one must question. There are two sides of a story and by letting both protagonists narrate the same actions, the reader may compare the two and see the different perceptions of the same event.
In The Collector we have a double perspective, one female narrator and a male narrator. Frederick Clegg’s part is rather a neutral part, a factual and descriptive report of the events, while Miranda’s in more colorful. For her, writing has a therapeutic effect and she becomes addicted to it. Their clashing viewpoints result from two different selves: the young man is a psychopath, whereas the young woman has many things that he lacks: she is a talented, sensitive, intelligent art student. Thus, the two have different values, norms and ideals. Some of Frederick’s problems with Miranda seem to result from the fact that they belong to different social classes. The unreliability resides in this class difference, in the fact that social classes doesn’t understand each other, in the fact that them are judging one to each other through their own values and norms.
What Clegg wants is pure and perfect love, he despises women who are sexually experienced and he claims that they disgust him. His ideal woman is as pure as believe himself to be. He is a character with little experience of love and human relationship. He does not know what he truly expects from a relation with Miranda. What he wants is purity, perfection and uniqueness.
In the first part of the book Miranda is built as a maiden in distress, but the second part reveals her limitations: she prays to a God she doesn’t believe in and reveals a snobbish disdain about everything she thinks about. The more one reads her narration, the more obvious her unreliability as a narrator becomes. She is not only a prisoner in Clegg’s cellar, but she is also a prisoner of her own selfish mind. When the reader takes note of Miranda’s thoughts and impressions, he realizes that she doesn’t have pleasant traits, that she is not the pure and perfect woman described by Clegg. She often uses clichées, words and sentences that were not made up in her head, but read or heard somewhere else.
Fowles calls attention to the similarities between Clegg and Miranda by making both of them collectors. He collects butterflies and she collects money for different causes. They are both obsessed with the idea of beauty, they think about themselves as being superior to others: members of their social class and family. Both of them believe that their taste is more refined, both are convinced of their superiority

[Scheherazade]

"A Maggot" is about a lawyer who searches a Duke' son, who disappeared. The novel starts as a usual straight-forward story, but at a point we have a shift and the narration changes in interviews, letters and some newspaper pages, false documents, real documents . It is a great novel, much greater than 'The Collector'. The lawyer hired to investigate the disappearance, represents the historian/judge trying to create a coherent narrative out of problematic testimonies. The maggot represents the historian who intrudes into the past and who alters it to his own desires and needs.Thank you for the feedback, Dispater. I will try to read this one sometime soon.
Frederick Clegg’s part is rather a neutral part, a factual and descriptive report of the events, while Miranda’s in more colorful.Clegg's writing is an indication of his socially inept personality. He is unable to relate to what's going on around him; hence, he limits himself to factual information.
whereas the young woman has many things that he lacks: she is a talented, sensitive, intelligent art student. I am not so willing to dismiss Clegg by saying he lacks sensitivity, intelligence or talent. I felt that he was not given opportunities to develop in many aspects, which might be due to his social background.
The unreliability resides in this class difference, in the fact that social classes doesn’t understand each other, in the fact that them are judging one to each other through their own values and norms. I agree with you regarding the inability of social classes to understand each other. However, Miranda, being the more intelligent and better educated one in this relationship, still fails to show awareness. This is, of course, not her own fault but a failing of her class in general. Maybe this is one of the aspects the author is trying to highlight: Being better educated and more intelligent does not necessarily make us more receptive but generally more snobbish and intolerant.
He does not know what he truly expects from a relation with Miranda. What he wants is purity, perfection and uniqueness.Or he is simply worried that he won't be able to deal and/or satisfy the needs of an "experienced" woman so he dreams of a sexually inexperienced partner. I agree with you that he wants a "pure" woman but I do not think that his reasons behind this wish were so "pure".
When the reader takes note of Miranda’s thoughts and impressions, he realizes that she doesn’t have pleasant traits, that she is not the pure and perfect woman described by Clegg. She often uses clichées, words and sentences that were not made up in her head, but read or heard somewhere else.As I mentioned above, she is just another representative of her own class and yet another humanbeing. Faced with such threats, we would all do whatever it takes to survive and protect ourselves. Moral values are learnt and rather superficial and beneath it all, we are all savages, ready to do whatever it takes.

[Zee.]

I finished it, and it's odd to me.. the end, how he reacted to her death - it really shows that he has no understanding of love. He thought he loved her, but his reaction over her death really startled me. The cold ending shows a great lack of humanity, though I still think he is very sensitive. He's a very odd character.

Earlier I said that Miranda reminded me of myself - well she did, in part 1. But then when I started reading her part, from her perspective, I changed my mind pretty quickly. She isn't as likable as I first thought she was.

[TheFifthElement]

The Collector truly is an excellent book. I think:

I finished it, and it's odd to me.. the end, how he reacted to her death - it really shows that he has no understanding of love. He thought he loved her, but his reaction over her death really startled me. The cold ending shows a great lack of humanity, though I still think he is very sensitive. He's a very odd character.
this ultimately was the point. In the end Miranda was no different to him than the butterflies he collected.

[Scheherazade]

I agree with Fifth that Miranda was no different from the butterflies Clegg was collecting (hence the title), which is why he could move on very easily and set his eyes on a new target soon after Miranda's death.

I guess such relationships (if they can be called that) are never about love actually.

[DisPater]

Miranda Grey was also a collector. She collected money for different causes. Her drawing/painting teacher (J.P., if I remember) was also a collector: he collected women. Everyone is a collector.

I think that Clegg was able to move to another victim so easily because he was deceived in his expectations toward Miranda (remember part four of the novel when he says that he will try the same thing but with a 'normal' girl, a girl much closer to his social status).

[Helga]

Dispater, I definitely agree with you and that is probably why I liked Clegg so much and even though I wouldn't defend what he did in a way I always saw him as a victim too but in a different way of course.

[Scheherazade]

I think that Clegg was able to move to another victim so easily because he was deceived in his expectations toward Miranda He is bound to get disappointed because his expectations are not realistic no matter whom he pursues... He idealises them in his head and the moment they act like a regular person, he gets upset. And no kidnapped girl will agree to return his so-called "affections".