What Would Happen If It Were Only Eve?

[Beautifull]

okay, so in Genesis, it said that Adam and Eve were trown out of the garden for eating the fruit....idk if this was brought up or not, but i'm wondering what would've happened if it were only Eve that ate of the fruit...

some say they wouldn't be thrown out b/c God only told Adam and it was up to Adam to tell Eve, but some would say they would b/c one of them ate it and God said no eating it...

so what do you think?

[LMK]

I think the theological discussion is that God told Adam to rule and guard, that he was in charge of all creation that meant he was responsible and that if any rule breaking occurred, it would fall to Adam as the supervisor. Also, I think the story is that he did eat it, but even if he didn’t it was his responsibility to guard it.

Kind of like when something heinous takes place in a department, it is not unusual for the director of the department to be fired along with the evil-doer.

But I think the interesting question here is actually, could they have understood? Had Adam or Even ever been told, "No" before? If not, how could they possible understand that consequences would follow and what they might be? Later this is seen in the story of Cain and Able, Cain is not sentenced to death because he may not have had any idea that he killed Able or what that might mean. Had he ever experienced (seen, heard of) death?

These are just questions and thoughts, not positions or a religious posture.

~L

[JBI]

Nothing - Eve wasn't punished for eating the apple, so it can be assumed that God didn't care, as I guess her position as "woman" put her as not worth being noticed.

[Beautifull]

Nothing - Eve wasn't punished for eating the apple, so it can be assumed that God didn't care, as I guess her position as "woman" put her as not worth being noticed.

one, how can you be so sure it was an apple?
two, Eve was punished, that's the reason women have bear the children?
three, God did care, why did he tell Adam, of all the trees you can eat of except that one?
four, Adam noticed her, didn't he? he ate because she ate.

[Maximilianus]

I think we can't know because we were not there, so we can't know for sure who forbid whom to do what.

On the other hand I can make the following assumption: If you are a god and don't want ANY of your critters to eat a certain fruit, then you can either warn them one by one, OR you can set a written warning in front of the fruit so EVERY single one of YOUR critters can read the warning. Now, if YOU are a god who provided YOUR critters with free will, and after that YOU pretend to forbid them this or that, and because of the free will YOU gave them they disobey, then it's YOUR fault for having contradictory directives. Just pondering: in this case, wouldn't a fair god then pack all personal stuff and throw himself out of his own garden?

Now, I myself am very far from being a god but, as imperfect as I am, I don't blame others for MY mistakes... basically... because they are MINE.

[Beautifull]

i think he was just giving them a choice. it does say that he made them in his own image, but what i don't get is, why would you make something in your own image if you know what they're going to do? idk if it's in the bible, but i heard that God knows exactly what we are going to do.

but some people say it's adam's fault b/c God told him. If that's true, then i balme Eve for listening to that stupid serpent.

[JBI]

one, how can you be so sure it was an apple?
two, Eve was punished, that's the reason women have bear the children?
three, God did care, why did he tell Adam, of all the trees you can eat of except that one?
four, Adam noticed her, didn't he? he ate because she ate.

As for the Apple bit - I just conceptualize it as an apple, because of tradition, though the great Torah Scholar Rashi thought it most likely to have been a pomegranate, based on the tradition.

The point though is, God doesn't punish Eve, just Adam - that is something which is often lost in translation, but which Jewish scholars picked up years and years ago - he merely addresses her, he doesn't curse her like he does the snake or Adam, and the reason is, she already is born with the so called "Curse" inside her - that of being female, and therefore lesser (as Milton put it, he for God and she for God in him) and subjected to the will of man.

It is Adam that gets punished, because, quite simply, God doesn't care what Eve does, as long as she serves Adam - he, I would argue, and Adam, regard Eve as being lesser, similar to the Job's dismissal of his wife's advice. But it is that Adam decided to eat with Eve, rather than to listen to God which caused the problem - that Adam would decide to listen to "that women" over his father.

[Maximilianus]

i heard that God knows exactly what we are going to do.
If you possess a feature called "free will", then you don't follow a pattern, therefore you're unpredictable, therefore no one can say what you're going to do. People are like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gonna get ;)

but some people say it's adam's fault b/c God told him. If that's true, then i balme Eve for listening to that stupid serpent.
Supposing it to be true, we all listen to a serpent at least once in our lifespan. We cannot be perfect.... wow! I'm spotting a couple snakes heading right my way now... I'll make myself a pair of shoes with their skins, before I listen to whatever they have to say :p ... :lol:

[mona amon]

As for the Apple bit - I just conceptualize it as an apple, because of tradition, though the great Torah Scholar Rashi thought it most likely to have been a pomegranate, based on the tradition.

The point though is, God doesn't punish Eve, just Adam - that is something which is often lost in translation, but which Jewish scholars picked up years and years ago - he merely addresses her, he doesn't curse her like he does the snake or Adam, and the reason is, she already is born with the so called "Curse" inside her - that of being female, and therefore lesser (as Milton put it, he for God and she for God in him) and subjected to the will of man.

It is Adam that gets punished, because, quite simply, God doesn't care what Eve does, as long as she serves Adam - he, I would argue, and Adam, regard Eve as being lesser, similar to the Job's dismissal of his wife's advice. But it is that Adam decided to eat with Eve, rather than to listen to God which caused the problem - that Adam would decide to listen to "that women" over his father.

God does punish Eve, even if he doesn't curse her. Her punishment is labour pains and having to be ruled over by the man. But until that point I'd say she was equal to man, created, like man, in God's own image. It doesn't seem likely that someone made in the image of God would have a 'curse' inside her.

[weltanschauung]

the materialistic and literal interpretation of "religious" SYMBOLOGY is the genesis of philosophical error.

[LMK]

Yes it is a story, it may be allegorical, it may be spiritually inspired truth, it may be a handed down history whose words have changed along with time and language.

A piece of forbidden fruit...commonly depicted as an apple… but, it is not the fruit that is the objective, rather it is the fact that the fruit is forbidden, and yet…it is tasted.

It was childbirth with pain that was Eve’s punishment.

[Beautifull]

As for the Apple bit - I just conceptualize it as an apple, because of tradition, though the great Torah Scholar Rashi thought it most likely to have been a pomegranate, based on the tradition.

The point though is, God doesn't punish Eve, just Adam - that is something which is often lost in translation, but which Jewish scholars picked up years and years ago - he merely addresses her, he doesn't curse her like he does the snake or Adam, and the reason is, she already is born with the so called "Curse" inside her - that of being female, and therefore lesser (as Milton put it, he for God and she for God in him) and subjected to the will of man.

It is Adam that gets punished, because, quite simply, God doesn't care what Eve does, as long as she serves Adam - he, I would argue, and Adam, regard Eve as being lesser, similar to the Job's dismissal of his wife's advice. But it is that Adam decided to eat with Eve, rather than to listen to God which caused the problem - that Adam would decide to listen to "that women" over his father.

okay, i understand the 'apple' part...

but god did punish Eve. Look at Gen 3:16, and you'll see that since she was the first to eat of the fruit, because she got Adam to eat of it, he made the woman subject to man. he also cursed her to bear children in pain. He did care what Eve did b/c she influenced Adam, b/c he made Eve as an helpmeet to him. Eve was made for Adam. But he listened to the woman that God made for him. He says in Gen 3:12 "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." In other words, Adam blamed Eve and God.

Just think for a moment that Eve wasn't in the picture, man wouldn't have eaten of the tree...I believe Eve was in God's attention. just because God didn't say straight out, "I curse you" doesn't mean what he said when He addressed her was not a curse.

[Beautifull]

It was childbirth with pain that was Eve’s punishment.

exactly my point.

[Maximilianus]

it may be a handed down history whose words have changed along with time and language.
This is one of the reasons why I think we'll never know what really happened. Besides we should remember that too many a time translations are, for different reasons, inaccurate.

It was childbirth with pain that was Eve’s punishment.
Supposing this was actually a form of punishment, I believe it's too much for just biting an apple. What kind of pain should a rapist and serial killer be punished with?

[LMK]

Supposing this was actually a form of punishment, I believe it's too much for just biting an apple. What kind of pain should a rapist and serial killer be punished with?

I might agree with that, given, as I've stated before neither Adam nor Eve (as far as we know) would have any understanding of what "forbidden" meant or that punishment of any kind would follow.


What kind of pain should a rapist and serial killer be punished with?

Well, since the punishment did not seem to relate to the deed, it might not necessarily be anything like death by inches or castration, but perhaps dwelling in the pit of a latrine ditch.

~L

[Maximilianus]

Well, since the punishment did not seem to relate to the deed, it might not necessarily be anything like death by inches or castration, but perhaps dwelling in the pit of a latrine ditch.

~L
That sounds good. A smelly punishment for a lifetime.

[Beautifull]

Supposing this was actually a form of punishment, I believe it's too much for just biting an apple. What kind of pain should a rapist and serial killer be punished with?

I think she got her just reward...she should have listened to Adam in the first place. I don't think a rapist and serial killershould be punished with a kind of pain, I think they should die and live in hell for eternity for the pain and deaths they made people feel.

[weltanschauung]

7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

[Beautifull]

7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Is this in Genesis?

[Maximilianus]

7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Meant for someone in particular?

[weltanschauung]

matthew chapter 7

why not.

[Beautifull]

ah. okay.

but to those who think it's a big deal about the forbidden fruit, i think it wasn't just the fruit. it could have been a flower, the point was God said don't eat it.And they did. I still think it was Eve's fault. Adam was guilty, one b/c God told him, but mostly, he was guiltyt of listening to his wife.

I think that happens a lot nowadays too. a man listens to his "woman" and there's consequences.

I think if Eve were the only one to eat it, Eve and the serpent would be cursed, punished, any way you want to say, and the two humans would have stayed in the garden.

[JuniperWoolf]

Adam was guilty, one b/c God told him, but mostly, he was guiltyt of listening to his wife.

I think that happens a lot nowadays too. a man listens to his "woman" and there's consequences.

Wow. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

If you're me, then you think that this story was written by misogynist (mortal) men with the intent of not only causing other men to distrust women, but also to give men the divine right to control and "discipline" their wives/daughters. Before Christianity, many religions considered women healers and prophets. Women were the ones with the greatest connection to the earth, which was what they worshipped. What better way to destroy a religion than to strip its highest authority (ie. women) of power and respect? Sick, power hungry men were afraid that women would prevent their spread of power, so their myth of creation dumped all of man's suffering on the mother of all.

My proof = witch burnings. No explination needed.

I also hate how they demonized snakes. Religions that I like revere snakes as wise.

[weltanschauung]

if you check that chevalier dictionary of symbols, you will find slightly comical how most animals are seen as the devil in the cristian symbology, like owls, frogs, snakes, moths, etc etc.
basically, women and everything that isnt man are puppets of satan. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/29.gif

not to mention that the moon, the sun, and nature in general are also demoniac.

[Maximilianus]

Wow. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

If you're me, then you think that this story was written by misogynist (mortal) men with the intent of not only causing other men to distrust women, but also to give men the divine right to control and "discipline" their wives/daughters. Before Christianity, many religions considered women healers and prophets. Women were the ones with the greatest connection to the earth, which was what they worshipped. What better way to destroy a religion than to strip its highest authority of power and respect? Sick, power hungry men were afraid that women would prevent their spread of power, so their myth of creation dumped all of man's suffering on the mother of all.

My proof = witch burnings. No explination needed.

I also hate how they demonized snakes. Religions that I like revere snakes as wise.
As a matter of fact, the Celts were a society where women were as important as men (or even more sometimes). They believed that functions like poetry, art, even economics and even war were feminine functions.
If I have to trust someone I pick to trust a woman. I've seen they are more dependable than most men I know, with some exceptions of course, but I feel it's a general rule.

if you check that chevalier dictionary of symbols, you will find slightly comical how most animals are seen as the devil in the cristian symbology, like owls, frogs, snakes, moths, etc etc.
basically, women and everything that isnt man are puppets of satan. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/29.gif
That text is utterly wrong!!
I have seen in my not-so-short life how women have become the source of all good things we know. Oftentimes a new war is started... by a group of men. Can anyone think of better puppets of Satan?

not to mention that the moon, the sun, and nature in general are also demoniac.

I often stare at the moon, sit in the sun, and contemplate nature. I'll keep doing it, no matter what certain texts may try to convince me of :nod:
For as long as there's a moon, a sun and nature, I will be with them until the end.

[weltanschauung]

I often stare at the moon, sit in the sun, and contemplate nature. I'll keep doing it, no matter what certain texts may try to convince me of :nod:
For as long as there's a moon, a sun and nature, I will be with them until the end.

you spawn of satan, you! :eek: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8UPXGun5zI

[Maximilianus]

you spawn of satan, you! :eek: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8UPXGun5zI

The youngest of the girls, poor lil one with that... thing... for a mother. She didn't even seem to understand a bit of what was going on. Fanatics are so sick they need a euthanasia.... and she finally took Satan's money :goof: ... what an ardent believer until the bucks awake some temptation :sick:

[beroq]

Not in all Revelations is it related that it was Eve who tempted Adam to eat the forbidden fruit (apple or wheat). In Christian tradition, Eve is the one who is responsible for the fall of man. According to the Islamic tradition, however, they both decided to try what was forbidden providentially. This is an interesting difference between these two genuine Traditions.

They were sent down to the state of contingencies not because they ate something beautiful, but because they decided for themselves what is evil and what is good. To decide between these two neccessitates a world of possibilities and free will.

Maybe it was not meant as a punishment but as a sign of a deep Divine trust in human kind's nobleness to be able seperate between the good and the evil.

[weltanschauung]

ironically, the social difference between a christian female and a muslim one is indeed inversely proportional to their supposed guilt veredict in the genesis.

frankly, i dont see whats so frigging evil about eating an apple and then sharing it.
it actually makes no sense that this big person god all religions talk about would put a fridge in paradise and then go 'but dont open it or else'...
i have a lot of trouble in considering this prankster god as the maker of our reality and considering his acts as koans of wisdom. he seems more like a silly younger brother who suffers from periodic fits. and then goes to his older brother's room and breaks stuff.

[Beautifull]

Wow. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

If you're me, then you think that this story was written by misogynist (mortal) men with the intent of not only causing other men to distrust women, but also to give men the divine right to control and "discipline" their wives/daughters. Before Christianity, many religions considered women healers and prophets. Women were the ones with the greatest connection to the earth, which was what they worshipped. What better way to destroy a religion than to strip its highest authority (ie. women) of power and respect? Sick, power hungry men were afraid that women would prevent their spread of power, so their myth of creation dumped all of man's suffering on the mother of all.

My proof = witch burnings. No explination needed.


okay, i see your point juniper, but i said it happens, but i didn't mean everyone. i mean those miserable men in loveless marriages who try to shut their wife up, or those lovestruck men trying to bring the moon and the stars to his wife, even if it's wrong. do you see my point?


basically, women and everything that isnt man are puppets of satan. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/29.gif



seriously, are you stating your point, or just stating infoyouhave heard?:rage:

[Beautifull]

i was thinking today that maybe men think that eve's decisions reflect every woman, so they think they have to boss the lady around. is that true guys?

[weltanschauung]

im just saying what christianity taught us.

[Beautifull]

im just saying what christianity taught us.

so....basically, women have more sin in them, so it gives men a right to put them under control?

[Maximilianus]

ironically, the social difference between a christian female and a muslim one is indeed inversely proportional to their supposed guilt veredict in the genesis.

frankly, i dont see whats so frigging evil about eating an apple and then sharing it.
it actually makes no sense that this big person god all religions talk about would put a fridge in paradise and then go 'but dont open it or else'...
i have a lot of trouble in considering this prankster god as the maker of our reality and considering his acts as koans of wisdom. he seems more like a silly younger brother who suffers from periodic fits. and then goes to his older brother's room and breaks stuff.
Same opinion as mine! :thumbs_up

Put a fridge in paradise and people will want to look inside, and that's normal curiosity according to human nature. If a god doesn't want a being to feel curious then... why torture them with temptations? ... oh yeah, some may say "because he loves you".

i was thinking today that maybe men think that eve's decisions reflect every woman, so they think they have to boss the lady around. is that true guys?
Not at all. I believe in team work. Eve, if there ever was such an apple-lusty sinning woman, was only one and cannot be a measure for all women

so....basically, women have more sin in them, so it gives men a right to put them under control?
What welt is saying since some posts above is that Christianity taught us that women are the source of all evil, and I believe that anyone with at least two neurons for a brain can find out that true evil comes from a variety of sources.

[Beautifull]

Same opinion as mine! :thumbs_up

What welt is saying since some posts above is that Christianity taught us that women are the source of all evil,

men assume the worst...

[Maximilianus]

men assume the worst...

That is often true... but we are not all like that. Some of us are very fond of ladies, so when someone says "women and evil are the same" I pay them one of my most scornful looks, because I know it's not true and I can prove it. Often, retrograde societies have tried to make it true, but of course, it's an utter misconception of the feminine nature.

[JBI]

okay, i understand the 'apple' part...

but god did punish Eve. Look at Gen 3:16, and you'll see that since she was the first to eat of the fruit, because she got Adam to eat of it, he made the woman subject to man. he also cursed her to bear children in pain. He did care what Eve did b/c she influenced Adam, b/c he made Eve as an helpmeet to him. Eve was made for Adam. But he listened to the woman that God made for him. He says in Gen 3:12 "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." In other words, Adam blamed Eve and God.

Just think for a moment that Eve wasn't in the picture, man wouldn't have eaten of the tree...I believe Eve was in God's attention. just because God didn't say straight out, "I curse you" doesn't mean what he said when He addressed her was not a curse.

I'll address this response, though there were a couple more saying similar things.

Eve is not cursed or punished - the language of the original is very different than most translations, but what is actually said to her is not a curse, and is not an uttered punishment, but rather a revelation - the language of address god uses is not one he uses to punish, and he never attempts to - what actually is said is the "knowledge" as gotten by the tree - that women are inherently born with this high chance of death through childbirth - the difficulty of labor is just part of it, the actual death rate of women in childbirth at this time was giant - but, perhaps more savagely, they will still desire to undergo such ordeals, because of a submission to the man, but also to her physical desires and instincts - keep in mind - the enlightenment was millennia away.

God is not punishing Eve, merely "saying it as it is", if you will - it is misogynist, and quite crude, but it is there. The problem I think is that the King James and most subsequent translations, translate the lines improperly:

Unto the woman he said,

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;
in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;
and thy desire shall be to thy husband,
and he shall rule over thee.



The greatly multiply bit is an additive for effect, or perhaps a misreading. Harbah arbeh is more like "you will have a great deal", idiomatically - it isn't actually "I will multiply" - it isn't a punishment, and not intended to be, it is a consequence of the actions as would occur.

The whole story then, is tied in with the sense of sexual awakening - the consciousness that Adam and Eve have of each other, as sexual beings. What that implies is sex as a factor of importance, and, through sex comes reproduction, and through reproduction, ultimately, especially at this time, a painful process that often kills the mother, the child, or both.

[Nightshade]

The whole story then, is tied in with the sense of sexual awakening - the consciousness that Adam and Eve have of each other, as sexual beings. What that implies is sex as a factor of importance, and, through sex comes reproduction, and through reproduction, ultimately, especially at this time, a painful process that often kills the mother, the child, or both.

Which is where the found they were naked and became emabressed and covered themselves with fig leaves comes into it, right?

[JBI]

Which is where the found they were naked and became emabressed and covered themselves with fig leaves comes into it, right?

exactly.

[Judas130]

Milton expresses that the fiction (for that is what it is) is symbolic of love, in that Adam follows the intoxicated and flushed Eve in rebellion against God's order - because he cannot bear to be parted with her, or be with some other women made from his rib:

"and me with thee hath ruined, for with thee / certain my resolution is to die; / how can I live without thee..."
"should God create another Eve, and I / Another rib afford, yet loss of thee..."

The Story of Adam and Eve is also symbolic of marriage, concepts of 'one flesh' or 'one body' as both are same. An idea of Milton's from paradise lost that may support JBI's idea that Eve has been awakened to death in childbirth and the knowledge of such:

"Of knowledge, nor was godhead from her thought. / Greedily she engorged without restraint, / and knew not eating death: satiate at length'

peace

[Beautifull]

That is often true... but we are not all like that. Some of us are very fond of ladies, so when someone says "women and evil are the same" I pay them one of my most scornful looks, because I know it's not true and I can prove it. Often, retrograde societies have tried to make it true, but of course, it's an utter misconception of the feminine nature.

thank you for sticking up for the femenist's nature.:D

[Maximilianus]

thank you for sticking up for the femenist's nature.:D

Anytime and always :D

[Beautifull]

how did you know Lot's wife turned to salt if Lot couldn't turn back to see?

[Maximilianus]

how did you know Lot's wife turned to salt if Lot couldn't turn back to see?
As a man of science would say: "that's a most thrilling question"... and one of his colleagues would reply "let's debate about the matter"... and another one (suppose we are in old Britain) would say "Capital!" :lol:

[Beautifull]

As a man of science would say: "that's a most thrilling question"... and one of his colleagues would reply "let's debate about the matter"... and another one (suppose we are in old Britain) would say "Capital!" :lol:

yeah, someone brought that up to me while we were discussing Biblical Allusions...and I couldn't answer them.

[JBI]

how did you know Lot's wife turned to salt if Lot couldn't turn back to see?

Easy, she was probably half his age, and either leading him, or holding on to him - it isn't to difficult to visualize at any rate - if you are telling someone not to look back, and you are walking hand in hand with them, it is quite possible to see them be turned into a pillar of salt, without having to look back - looking to the right is not looking back.

Either way, it's a moral lesson - the point is not to look back, no matter how frightened, if God has made it clear there is nothing to fear if you follow him. Whether it was seen or not is not a very interesting question, in my honest opinion - rather, whether, if it indeed was the end of the world, would Lot's daughters actions be justifiable, that's a better question.

[Maximilianus]

Easy, she was probably half his age, and either leading him, or holding on to him - it isn't to difficult to visualize at any rate - if you are telling someone not to look back, and you are walking hand in hand with them, it is quite possible to see them be turned into a pillar of salt, without having to look back - looking to the right is not looking back.
Fine analysis JBI :thumbs_up

[blazeofglory]

This question can raise guesses only.

I think If it were only Eve who ate of the apple she would fall alone to the world of mortals. But Adam could not live without Eve and would have requested God to grant him to be a mortal.

[Maximilianus]

This question can raise guesses only.

I think If it were only Eve who ate of the apple she would fall alone to the world of mortals. But Adam could not live without Eve and would have requested God to grant him to be a mortal.

This takes me to another question: did Adam love Eve so much to be willing to renounce immortality and all luxuries of Paradise, just to be with her?

[blazeofglory]

This takes me to another question: did Adam love Eve so much to be willing to renounce immortality and all luxuries of Paradise, just to be with her?

The first couple Adam and Eve's love story is very famous. Adam ate of the apple out of love.

He always wanted Eve against everything.

In love people choose to live in pains and joys together, of course inseparably.

[soundofmusic]

how did you know Lot's wife turned to salt if Lot couldn't turn back to see?

:banana:Absolutely brilliant thought; it really never occured to me:eek:


This takes me to another question: did Adam love Eve so much to be willing to renounce immortality and all luxuries of Paradise, just to be with her?

:brow: Maybe God read Adams mind and knew he was thinking about tasting that fruit all along! It seems to me that the men I know spend a great deal of time thinking about the untasted fruit of life; but it is often the women who pick it ....Or maybe God just thought Adam should have a little more control over his household:idea:

[blazeofglory]

This takes me to another question: did Adam love Eve so much to be willing to renounce immortality and all luxuries of Paradise, just to be with her?

This is true, for man wants someone to share joys too. If Adam was all alone, unaccompanied with Eve with whom he would share his joys and of course his paradise would have been boring and uninteresting had she not accompanied him and in her presence even he would have the strength to undergo every suffering. It is oftentimes said that if you share your sufferings or pains it will be halved and your joys will be doubled. This is the fact and of course to share both joys and pains he needed a company and he was prepared to undergo or tolerate the unthinkable in her company. That means he could renounce immortality and all luxuries in Paradise.

[Beautifull]

The first couple Adam and Eve's love story is very famous. Adam ate of the apple out of love.

He always wanted Eve against everything.

In love people choose to live in pains and joys together, of course inseparably.

did Adam really eat the apple out of love? there's always the question on whether Adam ate he apple because he found that Eve didn't suffer and he was curious....
that's kind of the same with the apple...whoever said it was an apple...no where in Genesis does it say that the tree of knowledge of good and evil held apples...somewhere along the way someone said it was an apple and everyone started saying it. and another question..why an apple? why not an orange or a plum?

shows how much the humans love change.

[Revolte]

i think he was just giving them a choice. it does say that he made them in his own image, but what i don't get is, why would you make something in your own image if you know what they're going to do? idk if it's in the bible, but i heard that God knows exactly what we are going to do.

but some people say it's adam's fault b/c God told him. If that's true, then i balme Eve for listening to that stupid serpent.

ever played sim city? its alot funner to watch things get messed up. God ( I want to add here that I'm agnostic, not atheist or religious ) is either created by man, or close enough to man to be looked at as man. I see no reason why he wouldn't do stuff like that just for kicks, we do it. I know god is supposed to be this loving soul ( that never seems to do anything himself... ) but didn't he kick out some one close to him over a petty argument? The guy can't be as kind as people like to make him up to be. I seriously doubt any sain creature would outcast an entire species because they ate a fruit, even if the talking snake told them to do it. I'm not trying to be rude here or anything I'm serious about what I'm saying.

[Beautifull]

ever played sim city? its alot funner to watch things get messed up. God ( I want to add here that I'm agnostic, not atheist or religious ) is either created by man, or close enough to man to be looked at as man. I see no reason why he wouldn't do stuff like that just for kicks, we do it. I know god is supposed to be this loving soul ( that never seems to do anything himself... ) but didn't he kick out some one close to him over a petty argument? The guy can't be as kind as people like to make him up to be. I seriously doubt any sain creature would outcast an entire species because they ate a fruit, even if the talking snake told them to do it. I'm not trying to be rude here or anything I'm serious about what I'm saying.

I understand completely what you're saying...and it's interesting that you think GOd was made by man...If so, wouldn't you say that the stories of the bible would be mixed up over time? I mean, the bible is still standing today, and it's the same exact bible that was used way back in the ottoman empire?WOuldn't you agree that it would've changed a long time ago? Or maybe the effect it had on personal moral values?

This also makes me wounder though, if God knew that Adam would eat of the fruit and that there would be so much evil in the world(refering to story of Noah), I wonder why he let it happen(I mean, the bible said it mae him real sad when he saw the evil) Why would he want to watch something that made him sad? I'm just wondering...

[chum]

What Apple! Apple is not mentioned at all! The follwing statement is going to cause much controversy...
The forbidden fruit was just symbolism for SIN!
Satan "beguiled" Eve...She had sex with him. (sex is not the sin here...it is the association with Evil that is the sin)
Adam, then had sex with Eve.
Eve conceived twins.
Cain was the son of Satan.
Able was the son of Adam.
If you really read Genesis, with proper Hebrew translations...it states that Eve "continued in labor" and bore a second child...so they were maternal twins.
When Jesus confronts the people who are against him in the gospels he says "You are of your father, the Devil"! He means this in a real sence. There are a race of people mentioned in the Bible called Kinnites (sp?) which translates "sons of Cain".
There is so much in Genesis that is improperly translated that causes people to not get the story. One common question is, "If Adam and Eve were the first people...where did Cain's wife come from?" It states, after Cain was bannished, he went to the land of Nod and took a wife. How can this be?

Here is how...on the 6th Day God created man...(proper Hebrew translation is "adam").
On the 7th Day God rested.
After that, the Hebrew text says, God created "Ha Adam" (The Man) this is the Adam in the Garden of Eden story.
Since "one Day with God is as a 1,000 years with man', there were people around at least a 1,000 years before the Garden of Eden story!

[Beautifull]

What Apple! Apple is not mentioned at all! The follwing statement is going to cause much controversy...
The forbidden fruit was just symbolism for SIN!
Satan "beguiled" Eve...She had sex with him. (sex is not the sin here...it is the association with Evil that is the sin)
Adam, then had sex with Eve.
Eve conceived twins.
Cain was the son of Satan.
Able was the son of Adam.
If you really read Genesis, with proper Hebrew translations...it states that Eve "continued in labor" and bore a second child...so they were maternal twins.
When Jesus confronts the people who are against him in the gospels he says "You are of your father, the Devil"! He means this in a real sence. There are a race of people mentioned in the Bible called Kinnites (sp?) which translates "sons of Cain".
There is so much in Genesis that is improperly translated that causes people to not get the story. One common question is, "If Adam and Eve were the first people...where did Cain's wife come from?" It states, after Cain was bannished, he went to the land of Nod and took a wife. How can this be?

Here is how...on the 6th Day God created man...(proper Hebrew translation is "adam").
On the 7th Day God rested.
After that, the Hebrew text says, God created "Ha Adam" (The Man) this is the Adam in the Garden of Eden story.
Since "one Day with God is as a 1,000 years with man', there were people around at least a 1,000 years before the Garden of Eden story!

exactly! What apple!?

and I love your analysis of Genesis. I have been enlightened! son of the Devil, you say? hm...is there really any man born of the devil? In my opinion, I don't think so. I think the devil rather takes over the sond of God...can anyone prove me wrong?

[Dekarto]

I think that at least Eve would have thrown out of the garden, but logically Adam, too, since they have had to reproduce at some point. So, I think that He would have thrown both of them out, but simultaneously or not, I do not know. But their children would in any case be refused access to the Garden of Eden, as sin is inherited. No matter how you look at it, it would be impossible for mankind to still live in the Garden, because the next generation would be sinful, as inherited by one of their parents.


and I love your analysis of Genesis. I have been enlightened! son of the Devil, you say? hm...is there really any man born of the devil? In my opinion, I don't think so. I think the devil rather takes over the sond of God...can anyone prove me wrong?

Yes, I can prove you wrong. Satan does not 'take over' either Adam nor Eve, because that is not what happened, and that is not what sin is. There was nothing special about the fruit, but it was the act itself of disobeying God that caused sin upon them. All Satan did was to lure them into eating from the fruit, he did not himself enter them. To say that Satan is a part of sin is a misconception of the term 'sin'. Sin is the lack of goodness and holiness. And when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they lost this holiness, therefore being rejected by God and worthy of punishment.

[Beautifull]

Okay...wait, let me clarify something...it was said that Cain is the son of satan, but how? Weren't both Cain and abel born of Adam and Eve? And how

And I was saying because they fell into the temptation of sin, they gave in to the devil, because sin is of the devil.

[MarkBastable]

The Forgotten Prince




“Gather about me, little ones, close to the fire, and I shall tell you the story of how a great spirit was brought low by revenge.”

The children pressed in and hunkered down, cross-legged, wide-eyed. Dhotis were tucked between thighs. Saris were smoothed over knees. The soft dark settled on the village black and silent, like a crow’s feather.

“Once,” the old man said, “in the middle of an endless desert, there was a garden…”



* * * * *


It had been built by a wealthy prince for his pleasure - a place of lotuses and exotic fruits; of water lilies and scudding dragonflies; of yams and mangoes and grapes and pomegranates. In the midst of eternal dry sand, the walled garden was kept green and lush by a spring that bubbled from beneath a clear, blue rock beside an ancient banyan tree. From time to time the prince would drink a cupful of water from the spring – for it sustained not only the garden but also the prince himself. The magical spring water kept his skin clear, his hair lustrous, his limbs strong. He had lived in the garden for a hundred years and he had not aged a single day.

One morning the prince was walking in his garden, admiring the hanging fruit, smelling the fragrant blooms, when he saw a bright-eyed creature sitting on the rock from under which the bubbling spring burst forth. The creature’s smooth skin was coloured in a thousand shades of green, like a fabulous emerald in candlelight. Wise yellow eyes regarded the prince calmly as nimble fingers wove an intricate necklace from vine stems and clematis.

“Get out of my garden,” the prince yelled. “You have no business here.”

The creature smiled, unconcerned, fingers plaiting the vine. “Oh, I do.”

“This is my garden,” the prince said. “How did you get in?”

“I have always been here,” said the creature. “I have been here as long as this clear rock, as long as this ancient banyan, as long as this lively spring. I was here before this garden existed, and I shall be here, I hope, long after these cultivated flowers wither and die.”

The prince was impressed but too proud to show it. “Who are you?”

“My name is Ba-alzay. I am the eternal spirit of the sacred water.”

“You may have been here a thousand years,” the prince said, “but this place was nothing until I built the garden. Just a muddy oasis in the desert. Now look at it!”

“It’s very nice,” Ba-alzay admitted. He tipped his head to one side. “But a little lonely, hm?”

And it was true. The prince was lonely.

“To get the best from this garden, you must share it, “ Ba-alzay said. He stood up on his rock and leaned forward to hoop the vine necklace over the Prince’s head. “You need companions.” And before the prince could answer, he had turned, slipped down behind the banyan and disappeared.



* * * * *


The prince had a young couple brought in from a village beyond the desert. They were simple, honest folk - uninquisitive and biddable. And they were grateful to be allowed to live in the beautiful garden. The prince built them a bungalow with a veranda that overlooked a citrus grove and with doors that opened into the shadow of the banyan tree, where rose the spring that kept the garden green and lush.

“You may eat any fruit you can find,” the prince told them. “And you can drink from any of the fountains, the brooks, the pools. But you must never drink the water that springs from under the clear blue rock. Never. Do you understand?”

Every morning the young man played sitar to entertain the prince, and the young woman danced. At the scorching height of the day the young man would fan the prince as he reclined in the shade of palms, and the young woman sang sweet songs. In the evening the young woman prepared tempting fruit for the prince, who passed the hours teaching the young man to play backgammon.

And when it was time to part for the night the prince would remind them of the rules that governed their tenancy of the garden. “You are as free as you could wish to be – fed and cared for in the lap of my generous mercy. But you must never drink from the stream that bubbles from beneath the clear blue rock beside the ancient banyan tree.”

Years passed. The couple were no longer so young. The man’s fingers became too stiff to play the sitar. The woman’s voice became hoarse and she could no longer sing sweet songs. The prince visited the bungalow less frequently.

One evening the couple were sitting in the shade of the banyan tree when on top of the clear blue rock there appeared an emerald green creature with wise yellow eyes and nimble, lithe fingers that were weaving necklaces from honeysuckle and passionflower.

“Why so downhearted?” he asked the couple.

“We are no longer of use to the prince,” the young man explained. “I cannot play sitar as I once did, and my wife’s voice isn’t sweet anymore. We wish only to serve him, but we’re too old now.”

Ba-alzay laughed. “Is that all?” He looped the honeysuckle necklaces over the heads of the couple. “Listen – drink from the spring. Soon you’ll be young again and you can serve the prince as well as ever.”

“We’re forbidden to drink from that spring,” the woman said. “The prince doesn’t allow it.”

“The prince doesn’t allow it?” Ba-alzay said. “Who is he to make such rules? The spring doesn’t belong to him. It doesn’t even belong to me. It wells up from the earth and spills out here for anyone to drink.”

“But he’ll be furious,” said the man. He glanced at his wife.

“Let him be furious,” the woman said – and she cupped her hand into the flow of the spring water and drank deeply. Her face became smooth. Her hair regained its lustre. Her body tightened and grew firm again. She lifted a handful of water to her husband and he – hesitating a moment – drank too.




* * * * *



The prince had not visited the bungalow for many months. The young couple, without their master’s needs to occupy their time, found other outlets for their youthful energy. The young man cultivated fruit trees, grafting this branch to that root to produce stronger, more vigorous plants. The young woman made yarn and sewed garments and painted pictures with pigments ground from fruit-pits and flower petals. And each day they both drank from the spring and became more limber, more curious, more inventive.

One evening, as the young couple were sitting together in the shade of the banyan tree weaving a rug, they heard the prince calling them as he approached the bungalow through the citrus grove.

“Hello!” he shouted. “Is anyone there?”

He came around the side of the bungalow and stopped in mid-stride when he saw the young couple.

“I…” he stammered. “I thought you’d be dead by now.”

“Never felt better,” the young man said, smiling. “Can I offer you some wine?”

The prince’s face grew dark. “Have you drunk from the spring that I prohibited?” he demanded.

“Yes,” said the young woman, getting to her feet. “Ba-alzay said that we could.”

“You disobeyed me! I gave you all you could ever need – and you disobeyed me!”

With that the prince banished the young couple from the garden, throwing them out into the desert without clothes or food or water. They took from the garden only the honeysuckle necklaces that Ba-alzay had made for them. They fled weeping, not knowing how they would survive.



* * * * *


“Ba-alzay! Ba-alzay!”

The prince stood beneath the banyan tree screaming at the top of his voice.

“Yes?”

The emerald green creature appeared on top of the clear, blue rock. His lithe, delicate fingers were plaiting jasmine into an exquisite belt.

“You told them to drink from the water of the spring. Why did you do that?”

“Why not? They have the right - just as you do, just as I do, just as the ancient banyan tree does – to live and be happy.”

“Now I can never allow people into the garden – they’ll all want to drink from the spring.”

“Then let them. Are you afraid that, given eternity in which to learn and develop, they’d become equal to you?”

The prince drew his sword. “How dare you speak to me like that,” he cried, and with swift, expert flicks of his blade he cut off Ba-alzay’s nimble legs and his graceful, lissom arms. “As a punishment for defying me, you will crawl on your belly and eat dust for all time, despised and feared.”

He picked up Ba-alzay’s writhing body and tossed him over the wall of the garden into the desert. And Ba-alzay, without arms or legs, could not climb back into the garden, although he could hear the running water of the spring beyond the wall and he could taste its moisture on the air when he flicked out his tongue.

And still to this day, little ones, Ba-alzay flicks his tongue in the hope of tasting the sweet healing water of the spring beneath the banyan tree.


* * * * *


Ba-alzay crawled across the desert, moving only by moonlight, resting beneath rocks during the day. He searched for many months, until one dark midnight he found the young couple huddled in a makeshift hut at the banks of a meagre stream, gnawing at roots dug from the muddy bank.

The woman shrieked when Ba-alzay slithered into the hut, leaping to her feet as her husband grabbed a branch and raised it above his head.

“It’s me,” Ba-alzay said. “Look.”

He explained what had happened to him and why.

“I am cursed now to be despised,” he said. “But as long as you wear the necklaces I gave you, you will know me for who I really am. You will remember me, and you will remember the garden and you will remember the prince. As long as you wear the honeysuckle necklaces you will know the truth.”

“We’ll never take them off,” the young couple declared. “We’ll always remember – we promise.”

That night Ba-alzay lay between them, kept warm in the chill night by their bodies – loved and appreciated. At dawn, with a heavy heart, he awoke. He slithered up between the young man and the young woman and he bit through the plaited honeysuckle. He coiled his body around a rock and tugged the necklaces free. He dragged them out to the desert and left them there to shrivel and die. He returned to look at the sleeping couple, and then, sadly, he slithered away to hide until dark.

But for many months he stayed close by, watching from beneath rocks and behind scrubby bushes as the young couple built a home, dug irrigation ditches from the creek to the pasture, cultivated corn and fruit trees, husbanded goats. Sometimes Ba-alzay was spotted dozing on a warm rock, and he had to wriggle swiftly away as the panicking and oblivious young man went for him with a stick, fear and murder in his eyes.

At last came the day that Ba-alzay had been waiting for. As dusk was falling over the homestead, the prince appeared on horseback from the desert and approached the farm. Ba-alzay slithered into the undergrowth near the door and watched as the prince knocked.

“Yes?” said the young man, his pregnant wife peering suspiciously from over his shoulder.

“I was hasty,” said the prince. “You weren’t to blame. I’ll say sorry. You say sorry. Everything forgiven. Come back to the garden.”

“Who are you?” the young man said.

“I’m offering you paradise,” the prince said. “No need to work the soil. No need to labour in the fields. Just come and serve me again – like before. Remember how happy you were?”

“He’s selling something,” the young woman said. “I don’t trust him.”

“I have no idea who you are,” said the young man, “but we’re perfectly content here. We’ve got our bit of land. We have enough to eat; we’re not afraid of hard work; there’s a baby on the way. We’re fine.”

And he shut the door.

“But I’m lonely!” wailed the prince.

He turned and trudged back down the path, disconsolate. As he mounted his horse, he noticed Ba-alzay.

“This is your fault,” he said. “Everything was perfect until you interfered.”

“They’re happy now,” Ba-alzay said. “Only you and I have lost out.”

“You more than me. Look at you, grubbing around in the mud, hated by everyone.”

Ba-alzay flicked out his tongue. The taste of the healing spring hung about the prince, and the serpent could pick up the faintest sweet tang of it.

“They hate me, yes,” he admitted. “They despise me. I am the symbol of all that is loathsome to them.” His yellow eyes gleamed and he raised himself up, his hood extended, his jade scales glimmering in the light of the rising moon. “But, my prince, although they revile me now, they have me constantly in mind.”

He opened his mouth, fangs dripping with vengeful venom.

“Whatever they may think of me, they do at least acknowledge me,” Ba-alzay hissed triumphantly, quivering and rigid. “They have no doubt that I exist.”

He struck sharply at the horse’s legs, and the stallion reared up in fear. The prince, crying out, fell backwards and landed with a breathless thud in the dirt.

But no one came from the farmhouse to help him. They hadn’t heard him shout, they hadn’t heard him fall. Even as he stood up and brushed himself down and limped back to his perfect garden, the couple had already forgotten that he was ever at their door.

[Beautifull]

Wow...I guess that's a good fairy tale version of Adam and Eve...and it pities the "serpent" in this version...cute. :)

[Beautifull]

ever played sim city? its alot funner to watch things get messed up. God ( I want to add here that I'm agnostic, not atheist or religious ) is either created by man, or close enough to man to be looked at as man. I see no reason why he wouldn't do stuff like that just for kicks, we do it. I know god is supposed to be this loving soul ( that never seems to do anything himself... ) but didn't he kick out some one close to him over a petty argument? The guy can't be as kind as people like to make him up to be. I seriously doubt any sain creature would outcast an entire species because they ate a fruit, even if the talking snake told them to do it. I'm not trying to be rude here or anything I'm serious about what I'm saying.

The reason God kicked them out, wasn't because they ate the fruit, but because they were introduced to sin. The garden of Eden was a place where God came regularly(based on the relationship between him and Adam-man to man conversations), it was a place where God was close to man, but by sinning, both Adam and Eve could not stay close to God, because sin and truth can not mingle, and God IS Truth. God could no longer shelter them in the garden because of this. That's why they had to leave the garden.


What Apple! Apple is not mentioned at all! The follwing statement is going to cause much controversy...
The forbidden fruit was just symbolism for SIN!
Satan "beguiled" Eve...She had sex with him. (sex is not the sin here...it is the association with Evil that is the sin)
Adam, then had sex with Eve.
Eve conceived twins.
Cain was the son of Satan.
Able was the son of Adam.
If you really read Genesis, with proper Hebrew translations...it states that Eve "continued in labor" and bore a second child...so they were maternal twins.
When Jesus confronts the people who are against him in the gospels he says "You are of your father, the Devil"! He means this in a real sence. There are a race of people mentioned in the Bible called Kinnites (sp?) which translates "sons of Cain".
There is so much in Genesis that is improperly translated that causes people to not get the story. One common question is, "If Adam and Eve were the first people...where did Cain's wife come from?" It states, after Cain was bannished, he went to the land of Nod and took a wife. How can this be?


1st: The fruit could be symbolism of sin, but it seems more like it's plain just the was it was written, no symbolism really required. The sin was the act. If we did go along the lines of that symbol(as we can), the fruit would be the sin. And sin makes us ahamed. Would the fruit symbolize sin or shame? It said, as soon as both had eaten of the fruit, their eyes were opened, and they were ashamed. Before, they had no reason to be ashamed, because they did not sin.

2nd: I've thought about this a lot since I read your perspective on this. Where does it say Eve had sex with the serpent? Satan only tricked her to eat of the fruit. I think you're reading too far into the word "beguiled" than needed. The reason God says your father the devil is because Cain has listened to Satan, as many would listen to their fathers. It is more to tell Cain his horrible deed and how bad it was than the literal meaning. The fact that they were born together as maternal twins does not change anything.

3rd: The bible says that Adam and Eve were the first people made by God. Doesn't necessarily say that they were the only ones God made. I'm pretty certain God made more than just Adam and Eve.


And here's my question: When God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden, he sealed the gates into the garden, but what of the garden? Did he move it? Did he burn it down? Did he put it in a different dimension? I'm pretty sure Eden was on earth, close to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. No one's run into the garden since Adam and Eve. Has God destroyed the Garden of Eden?

[Beautifull]

Please, does anyone have an answer?

[Beautifull]

please, does anyone have an answer?

please!!!!

[Maximilianus]

Please, does anyone have an answer?
No, nope.


please!!!!
Do you really believe there's a possible way for anyone to know? :p I don't mean to discourage you, but there isn't :frown2:

[Beautifull]

No, nope.


Do you really believe there's a possible way for anyone to know? :p I don't mean to discourage you, but there isn't :frown2:

There can be some kind of...guessing. I'm thinking God moved the whole garden away to a different place...maybe Heaven...does anyone object at least? Where are those bible scholars when you need them?

[Maximilianus]

Where are those bible scholars when you need them?
Depends on their timezone... if they are way too nighty, then they must be sleepy... in their beddies :p

[Neo_Sephiroth]

okay, so in Genesis, it said that Adam and Eve were trown out of the garden for eating the fruit....idk if this was brought up or not, but i'm wondering what would've happened if it were only Eve that ate of the fruit...

some say they wouldn't be thrown out b/c God only told Adam and it was up to Adam to tell Eve, but some would say they would b/c one of them ate it and God said no eating it...

so what do you think?

Yeah, I think Adam and Eve would have been thrown out regardless of who ate the fruit. The point is that they were husband and wife; together as one. So, if your wife gets in trouble for eating what was forbidden then you might as well because you're married to her.

[Beautifull]

Depends on their timezone... if they are way too nighty, then they must be sleepy... in their beddies :p

:lol: Maybe...:p


Yeah, I think Adam and Eve would have been thrown out regardless of who ate the fruit. The point is that they were husband and wife; together as one. So, if your wife gets in trouble for eating what was forbidden then you might as well because you're married to her.

I think God thought it should be like that, and I agree that they would have been thrown out some kind of way. Well, that is true that they were husband and wife, but Adam got thrown out because God told ADAM to not eat of the fruit, but notice that God never told Eve, but Adam told her. So the reason why Adam was punished was because he disobeyed God directly. Maybe God would have destroyed the women of the world or something...or maybe she would have been put out the garden, ans the whole world as lived right now would be extravagantly different.