Graphic Novels

[Manchegan]

I'm writing a graphic novel, and I'd like to know what ya'll think of them in general. Could you ever take one seriously enough to put it on par with a classic? Do you think they can do anything that a movie cannot? Can they retain a readers attention without relying on heroes and explosions and the like?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[stlukesguild]

Seriously, I think the potential is there. Maus, R. Crumb, Thomas Rowlandson, Daumier, Pieter Breughel, the "illuminated books" of William Blake all come immediately to mind. The initial challenge... and one that is probably not going to be achieved with the usual tales of superheroes with super powers... and drawings of muscle-bound heroes and scantily-clad buxom damsels (with lots of explosions) is that the work needs to be able to stand as a work of literature and/or as a work of visual art. The ideal (even more difficult) would be to achieve both at once. Personally, I'm surprised that the potential of the graphic novel has not been realized more and resulted in more works of real merit. I can't seen that achieving something of real merit in this form would be any more challenging than to achieve something of real merit in film, theater, the opera, musicals, or any other art form that cuts across genre and merges text with music or images etc...

[JuniperWoolf]

Stlukesguild is totally right about the potential of graphic novels being under-rated. I love them, more than novels, poetry, films and music (and I LOVE all of those things). As far as taking them seriously goes, I've had a pretty extensive education in classic literature , and I still put writers like Art Spiegelman on a pedestal (on par with Steinbeck and Rimbaud, who are my favorite novelist and poet respectively). If people can put aside their prejudices, I honestly believe that comics have a very bright future.

[Manchegan]

I agree. The super hero thing can have some pretty deep themes - Issues of morality, and whether a man has the right to judge and fight what he deems evil - but it's all been done. From my first looks at the industry, it seems almost impossible to break in without doing the expected vigilante story. That's what comic book readers expect, and that's what publishers know will sell. People who want something more don't generally look for it in graphic novels...too bad.

It's also difficult to draw an extended exposition for character developement, and still keep the reader interested. Something simply must explode in the first few pages.

[Lady Otter]

I do think there are some interesting graphic novels out there, against the superhero grain: whether it's Persepolis I and II, a French-language autobiographical graphic novel by Marjane Satrapi (in French, the first 2 volumes are combined into I in English, and 3and 4 into II , according to :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persepolis_(comics) ), or The Invention of Hugo Cabret by Brian Selznick.

Here is a review I posted on another literature forum, in the young adult section (http://www.literaturejunction.com/book-blogs/12396-winifreds-reads.html). The interesting thing re this forum is , there is so much more potential for the graphic novel not yet being utilized: In this young adult fiction, Selznick takes the reader back to the basic magic of early black and white films in this imaginative bow to the films of Georges Méliès (A Trip to the Moon, 1902, and many others).

An interesting vehicle, the book itself combines warm pencil-sketched black and white illustrations with stills from old movies, all rimmed in black reminiscent of a movie screen, with pages of writing. The wordless pictures advance the action, but the book is 500+ pages, not exactly a graphic novel, even though many pages are only 1/2 text.

[stlukesguild]

Yes! I forgot all about The Invention of Hugo Cabret which I came across in a used books store about a year ago. A marvelous book... and it definitely is suggestive of what is possible with the genre... but has yet to be realized much. I somewhat suspect that the blame for this can be shared equally among publishers who are only seeking out the SOS that they know has a market, the audience that eats up the same tired old crap, and the writers/artists who tend to fall into producing the usual cliche-ridden stuff. While at art school there was something of a perception of the illustration majors being not all that far removed from Neanderthals. A stereotype, perhaps... but there was unfortunately a lot of truth to it with regard to a great many who could imagine nothing more profound than churning out the usual Conan the Barbarian/Heavy Metal/Batman schlock.

[King Mob]

I agree with you all. Comics are a medium where many great things are yet still to be done. I also was intending to begin writing comics and i know there are horizons yet unexplored. The people who most pushed the boundaries are Grant Morrison (the most experimental of them all, in my opinion), Neil Gaiman, Peter Milligan (who is a bit underrated), Alan Moore, Art Spiegelman. I recommend reading them. There are surely more i cant think of right now.

Also, there is an excellent comics tradition in my country Argentina. You should try reading some, if you can find them that is.

[Lynne50]

I loved The Invention of Hugo Cabret. I don't think it got the attention from young adult readers as much as it deserved. I think the heftiness of the hardback book, might have had something to do with that.

On Youtube you can find the film A Trip to the Moon by Georges Melies. Very interesting. Amazing what he was able to do, even way back in 1902.

[Paulclem]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2004/aug/07/highereducation.news1

The link above is to a book review of Joe Sacco's graphic novel - The Fixer. I haven't previously bought graphic novels, but I was really impressed with this one. It is about a fixer in Sarajevo during the Bosnian war.

His most recent work is called Palestine about the situation in Palestine today.

[General Urko]

Manchegan, I highly recommend checking out Alan Moore's Writing For Comics (http://www.avatarpress.com/writingforcomics/). In it he talks about how one of the biggest problems with most comics and graphic novels is that too many writers try to model them after either novels or movies instead of using the unique traits of the comics medium to their advantage.

[Drkshadow03]

When I was an undergrad as part of the school's honor program we had to attend these Honor Program colloquium events where they held lectures and presentations on all different topics (round-table discussions of current events, sociology experiments, literature talks, film viewings and discussions, etc.). We were required each semester to attend five events of our choice. I remember going to one on The Graphic Novel as Literature.

One of the English professors gave an hour and half talk about Graphic novels, talking about his favorite works, the potential of the medium, and some of the big names in the field, with a slideshow that included pictures of the comics to enhance his presentation. He gave us a list of the most important graphic novels he recommended. I know I have that list somewhere. If I find it I will post the titles on it.

I think St. Lukes over exaggerates the problem of superheroes in the Graphic Novel medium. I remember distinctly that Alan Moore's Watchmen, pretty much regarded as the epitome of graphic novels capable of achieving literary success, and Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, appeared on the list and were a part of the talk. Superheroes can be literary too.

[JBI]

There is actually a significant one - Louis Riel: A Comic-Strip Biography - which works, since the format is suited to the character, who is kind of like a Joan of Arc, except 1000x more controversial and dynamic, so the dialogism of the graphic novel works well, In theory, it is just another form.

That being said, I would like to see it develop more in terms of content, to go beyond comic books into something more - certainly Blake got there, but I'm thinking more toward something where the picture and the words are one, which hasn't yet happened in English literature, I think, since we really don't have a calligraphy tradition, or a tradition of combining text with pictures in a serious artistic fashion. The graphic novel perhaps is a step, but it seems way too textualized for me - way to mass-produced - way to pulpish.

[Lily Adams]

Watchmen, mmmmmm.

[Paulclem]

The advent of computer graphics, e-paper, e-readers etc surely offer the graphic novel a lot of technical scope. Perhaps the illustrations will come to be called e-lustrations.

[Manchegan]

Thanks for the link, Paulclem. That Fixer comic sounds pretty awesome, although I'm not a huge fan of non-fiction generally.

@ General Urko, I haven't read that Moore book, but I've read a few of his actual comics and some shorter essays on writing. He's deffinitely good, but he stands out as the perfect example of a talented writer forced to write superhero cliches for an industry that expects them. He pushed the limits of those cliches, but he still adhered to them.

[The Comedian]

There is actually a significant one - Louis Riel: A Comic-Strip Biography - which works, since the format is suited to the character, who is kind of like a Joan of Arc, except 1000x more controversial and dynamic, so the dialogism of the graphic novel works well, In theory, it is just another form.

That being said, I would like to see it develop more in terms of content, to go beyond comic books into something more - certainly Blake got there, but I'm thinking more toward something where the picture and the words are one, which hasn't yet happened in English literature, I think, since we really don't have a calligraphy tradition, or a tradition of combining text with pictures in a serious artistic fashion. The graphic novel perhaps is a step, but it seems way too textualized for me - way to mass-produced - way to pulpish.

Take a look at Will Eisner's "A Contract with God and other Tenement Stories". . .then check out some of his other works. Eisner incorporates typography, art and narrative to tell a series of interconnected short stories about post-war city life. It's really a brilliant work.

Of course, the thing about reading graphic novels is that you have to read the art -- that is, take your time with the pictures. Look. Linger. If you treat the pictures as you would treat a billboard on the side of the highway, you might just as well "skim" the classics. (Oh, by "you" I'm referring to readers in general, not you in particular JBI -- just had to add a general word or two before a let this post go). :)

[stlukesguild]

I think St. Lukes over exaggerates the problem of superheroes in the Graphic Novel medium.

Maybe its just me but muscle-bound guys running around dressed in Speedos and a cape just strikes me as a bit... silly? :nod:

Perhaps it would work if they actually played with the absurdity of the actual image.:lol:

[Drkshadow03]

I think St. Lukes over exaggerates the problem of superheroes in the Graphic Novel medium.

Maybe its just me but muscle-bound guys running around dressed in Speedos and a cape just strikes me as a bit... silly? :nod:

Perhaps it would work if they actually played with the absurdity of the actual image.:lol:

Have you ever read Alan Moore's and David Gibbon's Watchmen?

[mortalterror]

Have you ever read Alan Moore's and David Gibbon's Watchmen?
The first eight issues were awesome, everything I'd ever wanted in a comicbook. It was both literary and visually interesting. The last four made me want to throw up. I remember trying to explain the story to some friends of mine, "So listen, it's like this. Lois dumps Superman and he goes to outerspace slamming ham for a couple of issues while **** goes to hell back on earth. Meanwhile, he's building ****ing sand castles on Mars and crying about his girlfriend. The smartest guy in the universe has a plan to avert world war 3 and get this, it involves Santa's workshop at the North Pole, movie script writers, psychics, and a fake alien attack on New York City. I guess sanctions just don't work anymore... Oh, and the bad guys win and they kill Batman like a punk. The End."

[kasie]

I'm writing a graphic novel, and I'd like to know what ya'll think of them in general. Could you ever take one seriously enough to put it on par with a classic? Do you think they can do anything that a movie cannot? Can they retain a readers attention without relying on heroes and explosions and the like?

Thanks for your thoughts.


Just a pernikity query: does one 'write' a graphic novel, or 'draw' it?

I must admit that I had never given the genre much thought - it seems, somehow, a masculine thing - until I read The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay and then I began to see all sorts of potential. I think I shocked a few friends by making for the graphic section of the bookshop to do some further study!

I think Comedian's comment is apposite: one needs to 'read' the art and I wonder how visually educated we are today? There is more emphasis on literary skills - or there was in my education, admitted rather a long time ago! - and it seems to me that graphic novels, like many forms of visual communication, need to be lingered over for full appreciation, then the narrative thread breaks, so perhaps something without too strong a narrative is needed? I'm a novice here so what do more experienced graphic 'readers' think?

[Drkshadow03]

The first eight issues were awesome, everything I'd ever wanted in a comicbook. It was both literary and visually interesting. The last four made me want to throw up. I remember trying to explain the story to some friends of mine, "So listen, it's like this. Lois dumps Superman and he goes to outerspace slamming ham for a couple of issues while **** goes to hell back on earth. Meanwhile, he's building ****ing sand castles on Mars and crying about his girlfriend. The smartest guy in the universe has a plan to avert world war 3 and get this, it involves Santa's workshop at the North Pole, movie script writers, psychics, and a fake alien attack on New York City. I guess sanctions just don't work anymore... Oh, and the bad guys win and they kill Batman like a punk. The End."

Psssh, you're just not elitist enough to truly appreciate the many subtle layers of Watchmen. You see it's like an onion with all these layers, which pretty much says exactly what I just said in my first sentence, but no Elitist™ post would be complete without some sort of crazy analogy. :D

[Manchegan]

[QUOTE=kasie;756711]Just a pernikity query: does one 'write' a graphic novel, or 'draw' it?[QUOTE]

It's basically like writing a script or screen play. I write the story and dialogue and narration. A friend draws the pictures.

And since we're talking Watchmen all the sudden, Did ya'll see the movie? It's got to be the only adaptation from a book that's better than the source material. It left out some characterization and only skimmed over the first generation of watchmen, but the movie fixed everything that was stupid about that santa's workshop ending.

[mortalterror]

I remember distinctly that Alan Moore's Watchmen, pretty much regarded as the epitome of graphic novels capable of achieving literary success, and Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, appeared on the list and were a part of the talk. Superheroes can be literary too.
The Dark Knight Returns is definitely head and shoulders above any of the other graphic novels I've ever read. Why don't they make a movie about that? Instead, Frank Miller's crummy 300 and Sin City get the blockbuster treatment.

[curlyqlink]

I still call "graphic novels" comic books. For the same reason that I order a small coffee at Starbucks as a "small coffee" and not a "grande".

[carlin08]

I would strongly recommend reading Alison Bechdel's graphic novel, _Fun Home_. Talk about a book that shows what the comic medium can do! She is a terrific writer, and the book grapples with some very complex and intricate themes.

On another note, I wanted to also mention that Scott McCloud's book, _Understanding Comics_, is also very good if you're interested in learning about the history of comics. Mainly, he is focused on trying to give us a language to talk about comics. Because it is a genre that intertwines pictures and words, the genre poses problems for English and Art majors. As English majors, we know how to deal with words, but some of us (myself included) are ill equipped to deal with the visual aspect. McCloud tries to ease this tension by providing us with a new vocabulary to discuss both the written and visual component. It's a great book (and how fitting that it is a comic book about comic books! so clever).