Kids By the Dozen

[AmericanEagle]

Nadya Suleman, the mother who gave birth to octuplets, just signed on to do a reality show that will feature her and her 14 children. She earlier stated that she didn't want the media to invade her privacy, but now she will allow cameras to follow her 24/7? I guess it's all about the money.

Other big families, like the Duggars and the Gosselins, have received reality shows on the American network TLC, and it was speculated that Suleman only had the octuplets because she wanted the fame.

I'm just worried about the effects that this will have on the children. In the case of the Duggars, there is often a lot of criticism about their fundamentalist beliefs and how they raise their children (gender roles, blanket training, homeschooling). In the case of the Gosselins, the parents recently split up, and it has been debated whether the show should continue.

Should these large families be having their own shows?

[The Atheist]

I guess it's all about the money.

Should these large families be having their own shows?

Sure. As long as people are dumb enough to watch them, "reality" shows will continue to flourish as there will always be others only too happy to prostitute themselves and their kids.

[*Classic*Charm*]

I would imagine that for families like the Gosslins there may have been no other choice- the average couple probably cannot afford to raise that many small children simultaneously, as at least one parent would have to stop working to raise them. I don't think it can be good for the family dynamics, but it might have been one of the only options for them.

I have no idea why the Duggars do it, because they have enough means to support their children from what I understand, and they don't watch tv so I don't really see what the appeal would be for them.

I really don't think the matter is "should they". Unless we have statistics on whether or not this sort of thing is damaging to the children, and even if we did, it's still going to keep happening. It's difficult to say why this new mother is going to parade her children around on tv- she may really need the monetary support. There's been so much media coverage of her pregnancy anyways, who knows what's true anymore?

[JacobF]

Such narcissism from parents makes me sad. Shows like this positioned as reality also makes me sad.

And I don't think we need statistics to show that being monitored by cameras and watched by millions of people like a zoo exhibit is damaging for a child. But that's just me.

[AmericanEagle]

I have no idea why the Duggars do it, because they have enough means to support their children from what I understand, and they don't watch tv so I don't really see what the appeal would be for them.

That's my problem with the Duggars. They don't believe in television and the internet, but those are the means through which they broadcast their lives. As for their finances, I really think that TLC paid for their house. Same with the Gosselins.

[Helga]

I don't see what is interesting about shows like these, except for people who are extremely curious. but I did read that she wasn't gonna have cameras 24/7 but only for big occasions or a few days each month. but man 14 kids, she probably needs the money.

[LMK]

I can't imagine wanting a reality show; although, I can't imagine raising multiple infants at the same time either.

I don't watch television so I don't know what any of these shows are like, but it doesn't sound like they would be verying interesting or entertaining. Watching someone's life and their every move...isn't that like stalking?

[AmericanEagle]

^ These shows are supposed to illustrate the trials and tribulations of raising a large family. I think that people who watch them are supposed to go, "If they can manage 8 (or 18) kids, I can surely manage 2."

[AmericanEagle]

Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar just announced on the Today Show that they are expecting baby #19. I guess they're aiming for an even 20. Given that their son is expecting a daughter later this year, Baby #19 will be younger than their granddaughter.

[Niamh]

Nadya Suleman, the mother who gave birth to octuplets, just signed on to do a reality show that will feature her and her 14 children. She earlier stated that she didn't want the media to invade her privacy, but now she will allow cameras to follow her 24/7? I guess it's all about the money.

Other big families, like the Duggars and the Gosselins, have received reality shows on the American network TLC, and it was speculated that Suleman only had the octuplets because she wanted the fame.

I'm just worried about the effects that this will have on the children. In the case of the Duggars, there is often a lot of criticism about their fundamentalist beliefs and how they raise their children (gender roles, blanket training, homeschooling). In the case of the Gosselins, the parents recently split up, and it has been debated whether the show should continue.

Should these large families be having their own shows?
They make tv shows about people with big families in the states? big deal! I've grown up with people who were one of 12,14 or 16 kids. There are only six of us in my family, which is probably still big by american standards. :D So no... i dont think they should have their own shows.

[Hurricane]

Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar just announced on the Today Show that they are expecting baby #19. I guess they're aiming for an even 20. Given that their son is expecting a daughter later this year, Baby #19 will be younger than their granddaughter.

Creepy.

I did some reading about the Duggars and the "Quiverfull" movement a while back. They follow a belief that you should have as many children as biologically possible and to not worry about details like, you know, paying for their care, since God will find a way to make you able to provide for them.

I guess to the Duggars, TLC is that way to provide. The father of the household rents out property for commercial uses, but I can't imagine that could provide for 18+ kids (despite how frugal they are), and I remember reading somewhere that TLC either completely paid for or significantly helped them build their new house.

As long as there's an audience, the shows will go on. I'll admit I watch "18 Kids and Counting" if it's on, because I think it's fascinating, if a little scary, particularly with how they deal with gender. At least in the case of the Duggars, I don't think it adversely effects the children because of how tightly they control their access to media, but I do think it's a pretty lame and shady that they thrive only because of the media and popular culture they claim to hate.

As far as Suleman goes, she should get nothing. She clearly acted incredibly irresponsibly, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was something seriously wrong with her. Giving her a show just feeds into her narcissism and makes her, and anybody crazy enough to agree with her, think that her actions were okay.

Also, sorry this was so ridiculously long.

[AmericanEagle]

As long as there's an audience, the shows will go on. I'll admit I watch "18 Kids and Counting" if it's on, because I think it's fascinating, if a little scary, particularly with how they deal with gender. At least in the case of the Duggars, I don't think it adversely effects the children because of how tightly they control their access to media, but I do think it's a pretty lame and shady that they thrive only because of the media and popular culture they claim to hate.

I just caught a few minutes of "18 Kids and Counting" tonight, and they were visiting D.C. The way that most of the kids behaved at the Ethiopian restaurant was appalling. It's like they have no respect for cultures different from their own. I blame that on the parents.


As far as Suleman goes, she should get nothing. She clearly acted incredibly irresponsibly, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was something seriously wrong with her. Giving her a show just feeds into her narcissism and makes her, and anybody crazy enough to agree with her, think that her actions were okay.

I agree. She already had 6 children when she went for the IVF. She had no job, yet she still insisted on having the octuplets.

[JBI]

Generally, I would say typical American trash culture, but at this point I think the problem has spread beyond that, to become a sort of world problem. In all honesty, the woman who birthed octuplets should never have recieved fertility treatment, but I guess if this didn't go through, her welfare check would have, and the public would be paying either way.

All I can say is, glad I'm not her son - seems like a mediocre family to be born into - it's a shame 14 got dumped there.

[AmericanEagle]

All I can say is, glad I'm not her son - seems like a mediocre family to be born into - it's a shame 14 got dumped there.

I guess you'd be glad not to be part of the Duggar family, either, with their strict gender roles.

[qimissung]

Such narcissism from parents makes me sad. Shows like this positioned as reality also makes me sad.

And I don't think we need statistics to show that being monitored by cameras and watched by millions of people like a zoo exhibit is damaging for a child. But that's just me.

I couldn't have said it better.

I don't really think they should have their own shows. Unfortunately, the reality show trend appears to be going strong. I enjoy shows like "Project Runway" and the HGTV "Design Star", but "Survivor", "Big Brother", well, or any of the others, simply do not appeal to me.

I saw an episode of the one about the Gosselins a couple of years ago. The kids were cute. If they needed the money, really needed it, then why didn't they choose to do it for only a year or two? I still remember "An American Family" from twenty years or so ago; even then it was obvious that the family dynamics changed when the cameras were there.

[JBI]

I guess you'd be glad not to be part of the Duggar family, either, with their strict gender roles.

Oh, most certainly not - it's a tragedy really, when traditional male roles include going to university, so that exempts the women - but, in that sense, I wouldn't want to be born into any sort of family in that subcategory (evangelical simpletons from the most backwater parts of the US), but I guess not everyone is fortunate in life - it's just a shame that they reproduce so quickly.

[AmericanEagle]

^ It is a shame that the Duggar girls are not allowed to pursue higher education. They are expected to get married, have babies, and obey their husbands. The older Duggar girls also have to take care of all the younger children because their parents don't seem interested. The boys don't pitch in because it's considered to be women's work.

When the oldest son got married, his wife was so upset that she didn't get pregnant within the first 3 months. Josh is only 21, and Anna is 20, and so there is plenty of time to start a family. Poor Anna, thinking that she had to get pregnant so soon.

[Niamh]

:eek: That really is backwards thinking!! I really dont agree with any of there ethics. I'm glad i'm not a member of that family.

[Hurricane]

^ It is a shame that the Duggar girls are not allowed to pursue higher education. They are expected to get married, have babies, and obey their husbands. The older Duggar girls also have to take care of all the younger children because their parents don't seem interested. The boys don't pitch in because it's considered to be women's work.


I remember seeing one episode where they switched chores for a day (i.e. boys cooked, girls did "manly" things) and that really freaked me out. The males were totally helpless when it came to taking care of themselves and the females were clueless at anything that wasn't cooking gallons of nasty-looking food or laundry.
I mean, what if one of the girls decides she wants to be a doctor or a lawyer or a fighter pilot or anything that's not "stay at home mom"? What if one of the males decides he wants to pursue a career in musical theater? I really doubt the parents would support either of them, and I think that's sad. They've limited the options for their children to about 2, and they're not doing them any favors.

[AmericanEagle]

^ I agree with everything you said.


I mean, what if one of the girls decides she wants to be a doctor or a lawyer or a fighter pilot or anything that's not "stay at home mom"?

I don't think that's an option for the Duggar girls. They've probably been told since they were young that it is the duty for the woman to stay at home. The Duggar girls seem to internalize this belief, and so I don't think that they even consider higher education and/or getting a job to be a viable option. Oprah Winfrey offered to send the girls to a midwife school, but the Duggars declined.


if one of the males decides he wants to pursue a career in musical theater?

The Duggar parents would never support any of their children being involved in musical theatre because dancing is considered to be "devil worship" :rolleyes:

[JBI]

I remember seeing one episode where they switched chores for a day (i.e. boys cooked, girls did "manly" things) and that really freaked me out. The males were totally helpless when it came to taking care of themselves and the females were clueless at anything that wasn't cooking gallons of nasty-looking food or laundry.
I mean, what if one of the girls decides she wants to be a doctor or a lawyer or a fighter pilot or anything that's not "stay at home mom"? What if one of the males decides he wants to pursue a career in musical theater? I really doubt the parents would support either of them, and I think that's sad. They've limited the options for their children to about 2, and they're not doing them any favors.

I really doubt they would be allowed to choose anyway, much less think. In a sort of reductionist summary, it seems safe enough to equate the gender roles as man as master, and woman as womb.

[Hurricane]

I really doubt they would be allowed to choose anyway, much less think. In a sort of reductionist summary, it seems safe enough to equate the gender roles as man as master, and woman as womb.

I know, it was more a kind of "worst case scenario" kind of thing. For all I know, they may not even realize those opportunities are available to them. But, I'd imagine that it must getting harder to control the girls' access to that knowledge considering the amount the family seems to be traveling recently. You have to wonder if they see independent women on their trips (particularly in D.C.) and their minds start whirring.

[JBI]

I know, it was more a kind of "worst case scenario" kind of thing. For all I know, they may not even realize those opportunities are available to them. But, I'd imagine that it must getting harder to control the girls' access to that knowledge considering the amount the family seems to be traveling recently. You have to wonder if they see independent women on their trips (particularly in D.C.) and their minds start whirring.

I doubt it - if you are raised from a young age believing that you are going to go to hell and burn for all eternity for thinking, chances are you are just going to stop thinking. The standard American gender conceptions are considered blasphemous and heretical, so most likely, they just look at them with disdain and think of them as filthy "whores". That's the irony of the whole situation, in essence, if the gender conceptions were to fail, it would be akin to a early 20th century Chinese woman thinking she was no longer beautiful because she was made to unbind her feet, or an Egyptian woman thinking herself impure for not undergoing a clitoridechtomy.

[Janine]

I find the whole notion of these children being subjected to the public eye, on a daily 24/7 basis, just appalling. In the US, everyone is so concerned about laws to protect our privacy. Who is protecting the privacy of these children? They don't have a say in this; therefore, I feel it's wrong. To show them, from time to time, on a TV news show is ok, but fulltime, everyday reality show?.... wrong in my opinion, and I think there has to be some effect on the children in the long run.

[JBI]

I find the whole notion of these children being subjected to the public eye, on a daily 24/7 basis, just appalling. In the US, everyone is so concerned about laws to protect our privacy. Who is protecting the privacy of these children? They don't have a say in this; therefore, I feel it's wrong. To show them, from time to time, on a TV news show is ok, but fulltime, everyday reality show?.... wrong in my opinion, and I think there has to be some effect on the children in the long run.

In one sense, in another, they probably have more freedom now that the public is watching them.

[Janine]

In one sense, in another, they probably have more freedom now that the public is watching them.

But, I'm not talking about 'freedom', I am talking about 'privacy'....they are quite different things. It just seems to me that this is a sort of stalking or invasion of someones private space. Also, they make such a big deal out of privacy laws in the US now, I just don't get why these reality shows don't also apply. Let me say this, if these were adoptive parents, they would have the authorities all over them for allowing their children to be seen daily by the public eye. I'm confused. It seems to me there is a contradiction going on here or double standard.

[JBI]

But, I'm not talking about 'freedom', I am talking about 'privacy'....they are quite different things. It just seems to me that this is a sort of stalking or invasion of someones private space. Also, they make such a big deal out of privacy laws in the US now, I just don't get why these reality shows don't also apply. Let me say this, if these were adoptive parents, they would have the authorities all over them for allowing their children to be seen daily by the public eye. I'm confused. It seems to me there is a contradiction going on here or double standard.

On one hand, on the other hand, according to them God is always watching, so if they aren't doing anything they wouldn't do in front of God, what difference does it make if a public is watching or not? The concept of privacy is exaggerated in a sense - can someone really give away what is private to them? Look at all the people putting things on Face Book or whatever, are they giving up a sense of Privacy? Is the sense of self really being exposed?

As far as I am concerned - the only things made "private" in the sense that you don't want people to see them, are things you are ashamed of, or embarrassed of - namely, how dysfunctional a family is, and how backward their values are - perhaps a bit of that has leaked out already, but, I suspect it's been toned down, so that all the Gay bashing and misogyny are at a moderate, instead of intense level, and we aren't subject to the literal vision of God being beaten into children.


But who is to say - the Wikipedia article on the family, for instance, was edited today, removing all the criticism of the family (despite being a locked article) - I assume such censorship goes through the filming of the television show, as, ratings are more important than accuracy.

[AmericanEagle]

I find the whole notion of these children being subjected to the public eye, on a daily 24/7 basis, just appalling. In the US, everyone is so concerned about laws to protect our privacy. Who is protecting the privacy of these children? They don't have a say in this; therefore, I feel it's wrong. To show them, from time to time, on a TV news show is ok, but fulltime, everyday reality show?.... wrong in my opinion, and I think there has to be some effect on the children in the long run.

I think that there are child labour laws in place to protect these children. A couple months ago, Jon and Kate Gosselin were under investigation due to allegations of child labour law violation.

[AmericanEagle]

I just went to the Duggars' website on TLC, and there's a quiz about the family. All of the kids' names start with the letter "J" because their first three children had names that start with the letter "J", and they didn't want any subsequent children to feel left out. OK, the Duggars need to stop having children because they are running out of good "J" names.

There is also a graphic design studio for the boys, and a sewing room for the girls. So, that means that boys are not allowed to sew, and girls are not allowed to do graphic design.

There is also a comment about Joseph and Josiah being Jim Bob's helpers. What exactly does Jim Bob need help with? Why can't they help out with the younger children, and take the load off the older girls? Of the older boys, I've only seen John-David hold any of the younger children.

I also played "Name that Duggar" on the website. When Joshua says "That is not my name," he says it in a really smug way. Also, I just saw that he put his wedding picture on his LinkedIn page. What kind of guy puts his wedding photo on his LinkedIn page?

OK, I really don't like Joshua. He refuses to wake up to take his pregnant wife to her doctor's appointment, but he willingly wakes up at 6AM for an appearance on the Today Show. Apparently, he loves the cameras more than he loves his wife. He doesn't seem to know French, either. He placed an accent grave in his daughter's name instead of an accent aigu.