His Dark Materials--Something other than Harry Potter to Discuss

[Petrarch's Love]

In part XXIX of the series of threads on the popularity of Harry Potter that spring up periodically and reliably as dandelions in summer around this forum Adagio happened to ask JBI about the His Dark Material series by Phillip Pullman and it got me to wondering whether people around here had read that series and what their opinions of it are? JBI having, I gather, read the first of the Pullman books, seemed to place it squarely in the Rowling vein. I have read the trilogy and, though I wouldn't have classified Pullman as great literature, I thought it was a clear step up from Rowling in terms of both style and interest. (Lest I incur the wrath of Potterites and because I don't want this thread to turn into an HP discussion, I will immediately add to this comparison of the two that I have read and enjoyed all the HP books, seen all the films, have nothing whatever against them, but none-the-less recognize as fact that some writers are more equal than others). The Pullman books are obviously written to be juvenile literature and as such often work at the level of simple fantasy and adventure. However I found the series, not only enjoyably written but mildly interesting in spots where you could see his mind moving through the philosophical and religious ideas he engages with. In particular I wondered what people made of his re-write of Paradise Lost. I found it an intriguing experiment and thought it was compelling in some places and less so in others, though it came out a bit too heavy handed at the end of the last book in my opinion (I recall liking the second book and the first part of the third the best).

In any case, I thought I'd give the active minds of this forum a different piece of contemporary juvenile literature to discuss. I'm curious to hear whether people have read His Dark Materials and, if they have read it, did they like it? Did people find the religious/philosophical discussion in it engaging, or controversial, or banal or offensive? Do they think it is a more successful piece of juvenile fiction for encouraging young people to read and to think than a work like HP and why or why not? Does the engagement with Milton work or not? Did it make you go back to reflect on, re-read or even read Paradise Lost for the first time? Does the direct engagement with an unquestionably great work of literature help or hurt your response to the book? Do you have any other topics or questions related to this book that I have not yet mentioned but that you would like to discuss?

Feel free to refer to Harry Potter or any other work of juvenile or adult fiction in the context of a direct comparison or commentary on Pullman's work, but if this thread turns into a discussion focused primarily on Harry Potter and the potential for that book to make people read or not I warn you now that I will not only be sadly disappointed in you all, but may submit a petition to the moderators that HP be henceforth known as "he who shall not be named" on these forums. :p

[Niamh]

Nicely put Petra!! Especially that last line! :p
I for one adore His Dark Materials and agree they are of a much higher standard that "that other series" that enjoyed also. They have a quality that is not found in most other young adult novels; the style of writing expressing more maturity.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Man that's a lot of questions!

My context is that I've read the first two books of Pullman's trilogy and nearly all the HP books and of course Paradise Lost several times. I had to read some Potter and Pullman for a class I did on popular culture (the same damn one as Dan Brown, ouch) so that is how I came to read them. In short I am not impressed with them.

A lot seems to be made of his philosophical and scientific themes/explorations as well as his religious (or anti-religious) stance, as if by covering big issues it automatically means that it is important literature. Suffice to say it doesn't. When these books made the top 5 of the BBCs Big Read they had some physicist on praising the depth of the cutting edge scientific stuff, such as Pullman's interest in dust. Well that is all well and good, but when has a physicist been a literary critic?

OK, I felt that they were a better written than the HP books, but not by much. As for the link to Paradise Lost, I actually don't feel anything or have anything to say on the matter. Maybe it was just another ploy to link in big issues, I don’t know?

Let's face it if the books were aimed at children, which by all means they were, wouldn't references to PL and cutting edge physics be lost on them anyway? I'm just a little confused by the intention of Pullman with these books really, don't get me wrong I don't hate them, I just don't feel anything for them, and that's the problem really.

[JBI]

I didn't exactly put it in the Rowling vein - I said it fits with the first 2 Rowling books, in terms of target audience. My problem I think, is that I can no longer really appreciate the "magic" of the text - I feel way too disconnected from the text to really enjoy them at all. Also, I found them incredibly British, in a sort of Terry Pratchett, Stephen Frye kind of way, which isn't a bad thing, per say, but something to consider - it seems the sketching of the characters, well, to me at any rate, seems to be in line with a sort of English children's style carried down from Beatrix Potter, or even before that, with the protagonist (Lyra I think her name was?) reminding me of something out of George MacDonald and perhaps deliberately made to be similar to Lewis' Lucy, although, I think the latter comparison to be ironic, given that Pullman was trying to, I guess, forge the anti-Lewis novel.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes I think he was trying to write the atheist version of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, I remember that it was discussed in class along those lines, but even so...

The tutor also used the text as a way to introduce PL to those who only read popular novels, a sort of get them in off the streets with Potter and Pullman and hit them with Milton type thing, which was fine I guess, but for those of us who wanted to discuss Milton in greater depth we had to settle for stuff on the fringes. Still, it was an interest class for a small amount of credits and I finally got Milton in greater depth at a later time. Still this series does nothing for me, sorry.

[Adagio]

I found certain parts of the books to be really good, but other times I got a little bored. The ending, though, was brilliant. It is nice to see children's fiction a little more mature in theme, especially the way it covered the whole fall of man and temptation topic.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I read the first book and had no desire to move on in the series. I also couldn't get through the first HP book, and found The Golden Compass to be immensely superior to HP creatively, story-wise, and better written. I just couldn't get into it (The Golden Compass), and even though it inferred much to organized religion, it didn't really grab me. I'm an agnostic, and dislike organized religion for many, many reasons, but the themes in this book didn't grab me. I never really felt anything for the characters, especially Lyra, who I sort of disliked for much of the novel. I also agree with JBI; the novel felt incredibly British. Like he said (it is he, right JBI?), that isn't a bad thing, but it felt too heavy handed in my opinion.

I remember a lot of controversy over this book when the movie came out, about the "pro-atheist" stance in the book, since it is perfectly fine to shove Christianity down our children's throats, but no other points of view. But I digress. Even with the anti-religious theme in the novel, I found it to be far to veiled for any young child to pick up on.

[wessexgirl]

His Dark Materials is far superior to HP, but that doesn't mean I'm slagging HP off. It''s just much deeper. But here's a question which has been bugging me. For all those who are bemoaning the inferiority of both of these British texts, why did the publishers deem it advisable to change the title of both for the US market? HP and the Philosopher's Stone, was changed to HP and the Sorceror's Stone. Do Americans not understand what philosophy is? And the excellent Northern Lights became The Golden Compass, a much more inferior title. Can the US not grasp the concept of the original titles, or is it publishers "dumbing down?" For all those cocking a snook at these books, at least the British publishers didn't deign to change the authors' original titles. Perhaps they assumed that the market they were aimed at were quite capable of "getting" the titles, even though they were supposedly only capable of reading schlock.

[LitNetIsGreat]

His Dark Materials is far superior to HP, but that doesn't mean I'm slagging HP off. It''s just much deeper. But here's a question which has been bugging me. For all those who are bemoaning the inferiority of both of these British texts, why did the publishers deem it advisable to change the title of both for the US market? HP and the Philosopher's Stone, was changed to HP and the Sorceror's Stone. Do Americans not understand what philosophy is? And the excellent Northern Lights became The Golden Compass, a much more inferior title. Can the US not grasp the concept of the original titles, or is it publishers "dumbing down?" For all those cocking a snook at these books, at least the British publishers didn't deign to change the authors' original titles. Perhaps they assumed that the market they were aimed at were quite capable of "getting" the titles, even though they were supposedly only capable of reading schlock.

They often change the titles for an American audience, they do so for film quite a lot as well. I remember the Sheffield film "When Saturday Comes" (which was truly awful) was supposed to be called "A Pint O' Bitter" but the American audience Presumably wouldn't know what "bitter" was so they changed the entire thing. I guess the American market is so big that it takes the priority.

From When Saturday Comes (opposite my dad's house):lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlkvdTFR9Vg&feature=related

[wessexgirl]

They often change the titles for an American audience, they do so for film quite a lot as well. I remember the Sheffield film "When Saturday Comes" (which was truly awful) was supposed to be called "A Pint O' Bitter" but the American audience Presumably wouldn't know what "bitter" was so they changed the entire thing. I guess the American market is so big that it takes the priority.

From When Saturday Comes (opposite my dad's house):lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlkvdTFR9Vg&feature=related

Ooh, Sean Bean.....:blush:. Did your dad see him filming Neely? I suppose that dialect is quite tricky, but I can talk, (I'm a Brummie :lol:). I buy a Football (soccer for the Americans amongst us) magazine for the Library called WSC, which was recommended by my son, a sort of Private Eye for the football world, a bit more upmarket and satirical than your usual fanzine. I think I can safely say that I'm trying to extend the usual reading material of football fans there.....:lol:

[LitNetIsGreat]

Ooh, Sean Bean.....:blush:. Did your dad see him filming Neely? I suppose that dialect is quite tricky, but I can talk, (I'm a Brummie :lol:). I buy a Football (soccer for the Americans amongst us) magazine for the Library called WSC, which was recommended by my son, a sort of Private Eye for the football world, a bit more upmarket and satirical than your usual fanzine. I think I can safely say that I'm trying to extend the usual reading material of football fans there.....:lol:

Ha, I'm not sure if he did or not, I don't think so, he's too lazy probably sat drinking tea and reading the paper.

It's always embarrassing to hear your local dialect on tape, you end up putting on a posh accent for a while to make up for it! Brum is cool though, very laid back "me house is on fire man, I'll get up in a bit" and all that.

Truly though the film was the corniest thing, really cringe worthy, he ends up playing for Sheffield Utd and scoring the winning goal against Man U in the FA Cup, real Roy of the Rovers stuff, ouch! I think everyone from Sheffield knows someone who was either in that film or The Full Monty, (a better effort) but the main fun lies in spotting all the places you know. They always make Sheffield out to be a post industrial dump full of pleasant thickos, which is not accurate of course (mostly), but that's the world of movies for you.

[wessexgirl]

Thanks for that Neely, most people don't see Brummies as "cool" but thick. They confuse our accent of course with The Black Country :lol: Here's how it should go

Birmingham is one of the largest cities in the United Kingdom. It is
berminggum is wun uv the Larges citays in the u-nyted kingdem. It isprobably most famous for the Bull Ring and Spaghetti Junction, but it has
pRRobebLay moest faymus fer the buLLRRingg und spegettee jungshun, but [/I[I]]ittas
a lot more to offer. The National Exhibition Centre is a great source of
eLo- mor to offa. The nashnel eksibishun senta is a gRRayt sawss uvpride to the local inhabitants and steps have been taken in recent years to
pRRoid te the lowkel in-abitents und steps av bin tayken in RResunt yeers toimprove the appearance of the city.
impRRoov the appeeRents uv the citay.


Don't forget to roll the 'r's and try not to vary the tone too much. :D

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

His Dark Materials is far superior to HP, but that doesn't mean I'm slagging HP off. It''s just much deeper. But here's a question which has been bugging me. For all those who are bemoaning the inferiority of both of these British texts, why did the publishers deem it advisable to change the title of both for the US market? HP and the Philosopher's Stone, was changed to HP and the Sorceror's Stone. Do Americans not understand what philosophy is? And the excellent Northern Lights became The Golden Compass, a much more inferior title. Can the US not grasp the concept of the original titles, or is it publishers "dumbing down?" For all those cocking a snook at these books, at least the British publishers didn't deign to change the authors' original titles. Perhaps they assumed that the market they were aimed at were quite capable of "getting" the titles, even though they were supposedly only capable of reading schlock.

There is nothing that makes the changed title's worse or better. . . Northern Lights is akin to The Golden Compass, the latter of which I like more because it has more of a fantasy feel. And I like the changed title of HP and the Sorcerer's Stone better because for one, it sounds more like a child's book, and second, there is absolutely nothing philosophical about HP.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Thanks for that Neely, most people don't see Brummies as "cool" but thick. They confuse our accent of course with The Black Country :lol:


Yeah, I was just being polite. ;) (No just joking.)

Here's how it should go

Birmingham is one of the largest cities in the United Kingdom. It is
berminggum is wun uv the Larges citays in the u-nyted kingdem. It isprobably most famous for the Bull Ring and Spaghetti Junction, but it has
pRRobebLay moest faymus fer the buLLRRingg und spegettee jungshun, but [/I[I]]ittas
a lot more to offer. The National Exhibition Centre is a great source of
eLo- mor to offa. The nashnel eksibishun senta is a gRRayt sawss uvpride to the local inhabitants and steps have been taken in recent years to
pRRoid te the lowkel in-abitents und steps av bin tayken in RResunt yeers toimprove the appearance of the city.
impRRoov the appeeRents uv the citay.


Don't forget to roll the 'r's and try not to vary the tone too much. :D[/QUOTE]

:lol: I like it.


There is nothing that makes the changed title's worse or better. . . Northern Lights is akin to The Golden Compass, the latter of which I like more because it has more of a fantasy feel. And I like the changed title of HP and the Sorcerer's Stone better because for one, it sounds more like a child's book, and second, there is absolutely nothing philosophical about HP.

Well why do it then? There has to be a reason, does any American book or film change name to consider a British or other audience? I doubt it.

[wessexgirl]

There is nothing that makes the changed title's worse or better. . . Northern Lights is akin to The Golden Compass, the latter of which I like more because it has more of a fantasy feel. And I like the changed title of HP and the Sorcerer's Stone better because for one, it sounds more like a child's book, and second, there is absolutely nothing philosophical about HP.

The original titles were the authors choices. If they were good enough for them..,....

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Probably the reason they would make any change, to make it more marketable.

[MarkBastable]

phi⋅los⋅o⋅pher  /fɪˈlɒsəfər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fi-los-uh-fer] Show IPA
Use philosopher in a Sentence
–noun 1. a person who offers views or theories on profound questions in ethics, metaphysics, logic, and other related fields.
2. a person who is deeply versed in philosophy.
3. a person who establishes the central ideas of some movement, cult, etc.
4. a person who regulates his or her life, actions, judgments, utterances, etc., by the light of philosophy or reason.
5. a person who is rationally or sensibly calm, esp. under trying circumstances.
6. Obsolete. an alchemist or occult scientist.


In the Brit edition's title, the word was used in the sixth sense (as it were). The decision was that Americans wouldn't understand that archaic reference, though apparently the Brits were trusted to.

Frankly, I think that's not so much an insult to the majority of Americans as gross flattery of the majority of Brits.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

phi⋅los⋅o⋅pher  /fɪˈlɒsəfər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fi-los-uh-fer] Show IPA
Use philosopher in a Sentence
–noun 1. a person who offers views or theories on profound questions in ethics, metaphysics, logic, and other related fields.
2. a person who is deeply versed in philosophy.
3. a person who establishes the central ideas of some movement, cult, etc.
4. a person who regulates his or her life, actions, judgments, utterances, etc., by the light of philosophy or reason.
5. a person who is rationally or sensibly calm, esp. under trying circumstances.
6. Obsolete. an alchemist or occult scientist.


In the Brit edition's title, the word was used in the sixth sense (as it were). The decision was that Americans wouldn't understand that archaic reference, though apparently the Brits were trusted to.

Frankly, I think that's not so much an insult to the majority of Americans as gross flattery of the majority of Brits.

First, I don't think it's true that most Americans wouldn't understand a word such as "philosopher," and second, how do you know this is the reason?

[mortalterror]

Reminds me of On Mr. Milton's "Paradise Lost" (http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/amarvell/bl-amar-onmil.htm) by Marvell, Milton a Poem (http://www.english.uga.edu/nhilton/Blake/blaketxt1/milton.html) by Blake, and London 1802 by Wordsworth:

Milton! thou shouldst be living at this hour:
England hath need of thee: she is a fen
Of stagnant waters: altar, sword, and pen,
Fireside, the heroic wealth of hall and bower,
Have forfeited their ancient English dower
Of inward happiness. We are selfish men;
Oh! raise us up, return to us again;
And give us manners, virtue, freedom, power.
Thy soul was like a Star, and dwelt apart:
Thou hadst a voice whose sound was like the sea:
Pure as the naked heavens, majestic, free,
So didst thou travel on life's common way,
In cheerful godliness; and yet the heart
The lowliest duties on herself did lay.

[JBI]

The original titles were the authors choices. If they were good enough for them..,....

The point is that the philosopher's stone is an alchemist item - something from history, which in itself would, to the knowing person, connect the book with the fantastical - I think changing the title was akin to dumbing the title down, because I guess they figured Americans would think A) philosophy that must be boring, and b) what the hell is a philosopher's stone.

Of course, there was a more significant change for the French edition: Harry Potter à l'école des sorciers, which essentially ignores that facet of the title - but perhaps they didn't think they would be translating anymore or something.

[MarkBastable]

First, I don't think it's true that most Americans wouldn't understand a word such as "philosopher," and second, how do you know this is the reason?


It was much-discussed in the press over here at the time. The argument was that 'philosopher' wouldn't be understood in the obsolete usage, as given in the definition I posted. Which is fair enough really. You said yourself there is absolutely nothing philosophical about HP. In the modern sense of the word, there isn't - and why should anyone picking up the book assume that it was intended in some archaic and narrow sense?

[bluevictim]

I enjoyed the trilogy a lot. I especially appreciated the quantum mechanics framework he used to motivate the features of his fantasy universe. Unfortunately, he seemed to abandon his concern for elegantly motivating his fantastical elements in the third book. I felt his depiction of religion was too much of a caricature to take seriously. My impression was that direct engagement with Paradise Lost was not very central to the trilogy; at least it seemed less significant than its interaction with religion (especially Christianity) and contemporary physics. I was quite impressed with how big a role physics played in His Dark Materials, and I think the trilogy was significantly enriched by it. While I understand why the crowd here at LitNet is interested in whether or not His Dark Materials would get kids interested in Paradise Lost, I'm inclined to think it would be more relevant to ask whether or not His Dark Materials will get kids more interested in physics.

[kasie]

Thanks for that Neely, most people don't see Brummies as "cool" but thick. They confuse our accent of course with The Black Country :lol: Here's how it should go

Birmingham is one of the largest cities in the United Kingdom. It is
berminggum is wun uv the Larges citays in the u-nyted kingdem. It isprobably most famous for the Bull Ring and Spaghetti Junction, but it has
pRRobebLay moest faymus fer the buLLRRingg und spegettee jungshun, but [/I[I]]ittas
a lot more to offer. The National Exhibition Centre is a great source of
eLo- mor to offa. The nashnel eksibishun senta is a gRRayt sawss uvpride to the local inhabitants and steps have been taken in recent years to
pRRoid te the lowkel in-abitents und steps av bin tayken in RResunt yeers toimprove the appearance of the city.
impRRoov the appeeRents uv the citay.


Don't forget to roll the 'r's and try not to vary the tone too much. :D

Eeeh, wessexgirl, yer neverra brummie, no'witha ny-ame like tha'? I grew oop in Coventry, norra try-oo Cy-oventree keed, 'cos Ah wozn' by-orn ther, bu'well, nex' bes' thing, ayyy?

Hmm, back to the BBC accent, I think...

I read His Dark Materials in the wrong order, book 2 first as it was on the shelf of the holiday chalet we rented that year, found book 1 some time later, re-read book 2 because now it made sense, then got hold of book 3 when it came out in paperback. I still think book 2 is the best of the series, the story line somehow hangs together better than the others.

I think if I had read these stories at the age for which they were intended (I'm thinking 11/12 yr olds, some of the concepts would have been a bit beyond the 10/11 yr olds of my experience) I would have been deeply disturbed by book 3. Maybe that is because I was still at that age deeply influenced by my Chapel upbringing: something deep within me is still shocked by Pullman's blatant atheism and whenver I have been asked about recommending them as reading matter for specific children I have commented that I would be very cautious about children reading them without the opportunity to discuss them with open-minded adults. I've always been surprised that certain religious elements did not kick up an almighty fuss over these books as they did over 'that other' series that had witches in it. Yet having said that I was stimulated rather than disturbed by the ideas in Clarke's Childhood's End though I must have been about 14/15 when I read that.

No, I did not feel inclined to return to Paradise Lost after reading His Dark Materials but I did go back to it after reading I Never Promised You a Rose Garden. I went back to Beowulf after reading book 2 of Lord of the Rings - the rhythm of the prose kept a beat in my brain that I could only make go away by reading the inspiration for the novels. (Oh dear, is that another book that Must Not Be Named? :D )

[wessexgirl]

Eeeh, wessexgirl, yer neverra brummie, no'witha ny-ame like tha'? I grew oop in Coventry, norra try-oo Cy-oventree keed, 'cos Ah wozn' by-orn ther, bu'well, nex' bes' thing, ayyy?

Hmm, back to the BBC accent, I think... :D )

:D Perhaps that's best Kasie, if we wrote as we spoke in our native dialects, we probably wouldn't be understood. I chose Wessexgirl as a nod to Hardy, and as a verbal pun on Essexgirls, which Brits will probably know about, but I hasten to add I'm nothing like an Essexgirl :lol:! I'm far too old, the fake tan and the white stilettos have long since been abandoned, and I like to think I have a bit more up top, (in the thinking department, not the *cough- ahem* other department, if you take my meaning ;)).

[Kevets]

I loved the series. I found the whole notion of daemons to be charming, as well as a way to paint deep pictures of the characters. Mrs. Coulter's monkey daemon made her more sinister. Lyra was brave and reckless, but her Pan was cautious.

I also loved many of the characters. Serafina Pekala I love for the name alone. And Iorek and the whole notion of armored bears was interestingly presented.

I enjoyed the multi-verse aspects. And I always love a coming of age story. I think the love that developed between Lyra and Will was beautifully written. They literally :) went to hell and back together.

It's been a long time since I read HP. I remember enjoying the first 2 but think that the 3rd was too long to be worth the investment in time, so that's where I stopped. Of course, I'm well out of my adolescence. Had these been out when I was a kid, I would have devoured them as I did Tolkien. But I read Pullman as an adult, and still consider it one of my favorites.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi all--Just checked back on this thread and saw that it had managed to create at least a small diversion from HP, discussions of regional accents and British vs American titles of books and filmsbeing completely unforeseen but fun tangents. I am interested to see peoples' opinions about the book so thank you all for contributing your opinions. Haven't time for lengthy responses, but a few things that caught my eye:


I didn't exactly put it in the Rowling vein - I said it fits with the first 2 Rowling books, in terms of target audience.

Oh, I see. I think I misinterpreted your earlier remark, then.


My problem I think, is that I can no longer really appreciate the "magic" of the text - I feel way too disconnected from the text to really enjoy them at all.

Yes, personal taste in a certain genre or type of fiction can greatly affect the degree to which one enjoys lesser or juvenile works in that genre. I've gathered, I think, that you're not much of a fantasy fan in general, which would certainly undermine some of the fun in such a read.


Also, I found them incredibly British, in a sort of Terry Pratchett, Stephen Frye kind of way, which isn't a bad thing, per say, but something to consider - it seems the sketching of the characters, well, to me at any rate, seems to be in line with a sort of English children's style carried down from Beatrix Potter, or even before that, with the protagonist (Lyra I think her name was?) reminding me of something out of George MacDonald and perhaps deliberately made to be similar to Lewis' Lucy, although, I think the latter comparison to be ironic, given that Pullman was trying to, I guess, forge the anti-Lewis novel.

I hadn't consciously been thinking of the characters as British "types" or at least it hadn't been bugging me, perhaps because I'm American and because the types are so prevalent in juvenile British fiction that they pass unnoticed, though of course you're absolutely right about that. Now you mention it, I think it entirely possible he was in part consciously trying to make his heroine a sort of anti-Lucy/anti-Lewis creation, at least in the first book. I'm not sure if the parallels are as strong in the second or third.



The tutor also used the text as a way to introduce PL to those who only read popular novels, a sort of get them in off the streets with Potter and Pullman and hit them with Milton type thing, which was fine I guess, but for those of us who wanted to discuss Milton in greater depth we had to settle for stuff on the fringes. Still, it was an interest class for a small amount of credits and I finally got Milton in greater depth at a later time. Still this series does nothing for me, sorry.

Yes, I had been wondering about the success or failure of trying to use this book as a starting off place for Milton. I noticed when I was teaching PL last year that many of the students had read Pullman and so drawing His Dark Materials into the discussion in occasional tangential ways seemed to help make discussion more lively. I've heard instructors talking about doing just what yours did and reading Pullman's book as an intro to PL, but that sounds like putting the cart before the horse to me. Your post affirms my instinct that Milton straight up is probably still the best. ;)


I enjoyed the trilogy a lot. I especially appreciated the quantum mechanics framework he used to motivate the features of his fantasy universe. Unfortunately, he seemed to abandon his concern for elegantly motivating his fantastical elements in the third book. I felt his depiction of religion was too much of a caricature to take seriously.

Yes, I think I had a similar reaction, especially as regards the end. I was quite disappointed with how absolutely flat he let it get when I had hoped there were hints at a more nuanced denouement in the earlier bits.


My impression was that direct engagement with Paradise Lost was not very central to the trilogy; at least it seemed less significant than its interaction with religion (especially Christianity) and contemporary physics.

It is possible that scholars of renaissance poetry have a slightly biased sense of the degree to which PL is the shaping force of the book. :nod:


I was quite impressed with how big a role physics played in His Dark Materials, and I think the trilogy was significantly enriched by it. While I understand why the crowd here at LitNet is interested in whether or not His Dark Materials would get kids interested in Paradise Lost, I'm inclined to think it would be more relevant to ask whether or not His Dark Materials will get kids more interested in physics.

An excellent question. Don't know about kids, but it made me think I should brush up more on my quantum physics knowledge. :D



No, I did not feel inclined to return to Paradise Lost after reading His Dark Materials but I did go back to it after reading I Never Promised You a Rose Garden. I went back to Beowulf after reading book 2 of Lord of the Rings - the rhythm of the prose kept a beat in my brain that I could only make go away by reading the inspiration for the novels. (Oh dear, is that another book that Must Not Be Named? )

Certainly not! LOTR belongs to a higher caste altogether (partly because he catches some of that rhythm you allude to). I'm making notes: LOTR will lead readers to Beowulf; HDR will not necessarily lead PL...anyone know of any other gateway books to get people hooked on epic poetry? :D


I loved the series. I found the whole notion of daemons to be charming, as well as a way to paint deep pictures of the characters. Mrs. Coulter's monkey daemon made her more sinister. Lyra was brave and reckless, but her Pan was cautious.

I also loved many of the characters. Serafina Pekala I love for the name alone. And Iorek and the whole notion of armored bears was interestingly presented.

I enjoyed the multi-verse aspects. And I always love a coming of age story. I think the love that developed between Lyra and Will was beautifully written. They literally went to hell and back together.

It's been a long time since I read HP. I remember enjoying the first 2 but think that the 3rd was too long to be worth the investment in time, so that's where I stopped. Of course, I'm well out of my adolescence. Had these been out when I was a kid, I would have devoured them as I did Tolkien. But I read Pullman as an adult, and still consider it one of my favorites.

Yes, they are quite fun reads, and I also enjoyed the idea of the daemons. There's a lot a writer could play with in terms of character there. I agree that the journey through the underworld and the relationship throughout between Will and Lyra were high points in the series.

[jinjang]

I'm curious to hear whether people have read His Dark Materials and, if they have read it, did they like it? Did people find the religious/philosophical discussion in it engaging, or controversial, or banal or offensive? Do they think it is a more successful piece of juvenile fiction for encouraging young people to read and to think than a work like HP and why or why not? Does the engagement with Milton work or not?

My whole family read the trilogy and we all loved it. We also read all the Harry Potter books and we like them, too, maybe not to the extent to read them again. We definitely rate it higher than Harry Potter except my daughter who is 10 years old. My 13 year old boy rates it higher than the Lord of the Rings. He said the Lord of the Rings is a new religion and it preaches and drones on, becoming boring in the end, while the idea in the trilogy to kill the god was “so cool” in his word. Whether it leads them to read other books, I cannot say anything because both of my children were and are voracious readers before reading HP or the trilogy. The trilogy made my boy to think instead of just amusement he got from HP. I told him about Paradise Lost and what the book is about. He flipped a few pages without being drawn into it, which means, I guess, he may be a little too young for PL yet. I will introduce it again when he gets older unless his school does it first.

We grownups put the Lord of the Rings a little higher than the trilogy because it has more depths in terms of language and artistry, possibly because the trilogy aimed to attract younger children than the Lord of the Rings.

The trilogy is definitely engaging: a separate demon (visible soul) attached to a person is amusing to say the least; how severing the demon kills eventually the person or the person becomes an operable zombie: Golden Compass with its complex inscriptions or images for Lyra to be able to get answers to any questions; Subtle Knife that opens other worlds, especially when Lyra and Will open the door to where dead people are and let them free; Such unnatural things as opening other words create dark beings; Dust (particles) you get when you sever demons from children; Dust can be converted to energy to open the heaven; Old and dying god; witches and armored bears; fantastic beings you can see through Amber Spyglass; etc.

I agree with kasie: there was a ring of power in Beowulf, which associates with the Lord of the Rings while PL with the trilogy in question.

It will definitely offend religious people with the idea of killing the god. Neither of my children ever cared much about Narnia Chronicle, although they read the books. They both think the Bartimaeus Trilogy better than the listed books here because "it simply is fun to read." Children, mine at least, do not like sneakily inserted informative messages in the books they are enjoying. I conclude now that the trilogy does not lead them to physics nor does it lead them to read PL. My boy likes physics as it is and he seems to understand it better than me.

I hope I answered some part of your questions.

[jinjang]

I have been reading really slowly Paradise Lost a page or so at a time.
Today I discovered reading it aloud is the best way to absorb this particular story. Not only that, it peaked my boy's interest. We read aloud one whole book alternating together out of XII books. He and I will be reading the story together aloud a book at a time from now on. I thought I should share this with parents.