I'm sorry, but a I gotta ask...

[ihrocks]

If it was discovered that a moderator had committed gross plagiarism on this site, and I mean really big, whoppin', no possibility of "oops, I forgot to add attribution" plagiarism, would it be the opinion of the membership here that the individual involved should continue to be a moderator?

This actually happened at another similarly-themed site I belong to, and the forum administrator decided the best action to take was to "shoot the messenger" and launch a harangue against the member who discovered and disclosed the situation. The moderator is still a moderator, and the member who discovered the situation, and anyone showing support for that individual, has been invited to leave that forum.

Am I the only one who thinks it's nuts that in a forum dedicated to the written word plagiarism "isn't a crime"?

[subterranean]

To simplify..is she/he acknowlege something which doesn't belong to her/him as hers/him??

[ihrocks]

The moderator posted reviews of books, which is a section of the website. The concept is that the members of the forum write their own reviews of books they've read. The reviews are supposed to be their own original work. Several of this person's reviews include entire paragraphs, verbatim, from reviews written by other people and posted elsewhere on the web. There is no attribution to these other writers or the locations where their work could be found. Also, it turned out, this is not the first site where this person has done this; he was caught posting at another site in the same fashion about a month ago, so he knows what he was doing and that is was wrong.

[Logos]

I feel very strongly about plagiarism (http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism.html) in any form :rage: I don't think there is any excuse to `get away' with it, but, well, good luck trying to eradicate it from the `net.






The moderator posted reviews of books, which is a section of the website. The concept is that the members of the forum write their own reviews of books they've read. The reviews are supposed to be their own original work. Several of this person's reviews include entire paragraphs, verbatim, from reviews written by other people and posted elsewhere on the web. There is no attribution to these other writers or the locations where their work could be found. Also, it turned out, this is not the first site where this person has done this; he was caught posting at another site in the same fashion about a month ago, so he knows what he was doing and that is was wrong.

[subterranean]

Well it's a shame indeed. IMO, you should post a thread to inform all members about this act. The reviews should be a place where members learn to express their own thoughts/opinions. Eventough they can use othe people's, they should input the names to honour the writers' hardwork

[Scheherazade]

Plagiarism is one of the issues I feel very strongly about as well. However, as Logos pointed out, it is very difficult to draw the line on the net. I know some people even on here who 'cut and paste' things, without stating their source but I would like to think that they do it without the intention of 'plagiarising'.

However, ihrocks, the incident you mention sounds interesting. I cannot imagine an Admin not taking an action against plagiarism so I wonder if there is more to the story than meets the eye.

[ihrocks]

Well it's a shame indeed. IMO, you should post a thread to inform all members about this act. The reviews should be a place where members learn to express their own thoughts/opinions. Eventough they can use othe people's, they should input the names to honour the writers' hardwork

Funny you should say that sub. Someone did post a thread to inform the membership. Do you know what's happened? A number number of members, including moderators and the site administrator are castigating that person for not dealing with it "privately" with admin. In fact, they are more concerned with that than the fact that someone who exercises such poor judgement as to steal other writers' work is given a position of authority with the power to edit their posts.

It's a strange parallel universe thing, I think. Some wormhole in the cybernet that takes one through the looking glass, or down the rabbit hole, or....well, you get the idea.

[Snukes]

Ugh. I've dealt with plagiarism on another board as well. It's not pretty no matter who is at fault. I was in the easier position of being a moderator and discovering a member at fault, but there's still no perfect solution, especially when the "criminal" is otherwise in good standing and well respected.

But plagiarism is always wrong. Period. No matter what.

It sounds to me like your choice, in this situation, is whether to accept the decision of the Admin/moderators and hope you never end up feeling any of the backlash, or you decide to get while the getting is good. If the forum is very important to you, you could always attempt some sort of petition - take a private survey to see if other members agree with you, then have everyone email their concerns directly to the admin all at the same time. *shrug* Really depends on your admin.

Speaking from the moderator's viewpoint, I must say that I do understand - to some extent - why the Admin would have jumped to the defense of the moderator and scold the member for a public scene. If a moderator acts in bad faith, the worst thing for the whole forum is if it becomes a public scene. Looks bad for the forum, looks bad for the Admin. A wise and benevolent Admin could do a better job handling it than what you described, but not all forums are so lucky. People are people, afterall.

My final word of advice is: conflicts are almost always dealt with best in private. If you feel you need to start a crusade to right a wrong, even then I would suggest starting quietly, seeing if resolution can't be reached without making enemies or burning bridges...

[ihrocks]

It sounds to me like your choice, in this situation, is whether to accept the decision of the Admin/moderators and hope you never end up feeling any of the backlash, or you decide to get while the getting is good.

Hence my growing presence here, Snukes.

[Snukes]

We're obviously better than your other haunt anyway. :D

[Basil]

Plagiarism is one of the issues I feel very strongly about as well. However, as Logos and Scher pointed out, it is very difficult to draw the line on the net. I know some people even on here who 'cut and paste' things, without stating their source but I would like to think that they do it without the intention of 'plagiarizing'.

[Scheherazade]

You, too? Whew! Glad to hear that as I was worried that I was the only one...

[subterranean]

I suppose this sort of thing which iritate me most when people posting "help me please" threads...Many of them are looking for answers without even bother to read first. And of course we don't expect them to put, say" posted by Ihrocks in the www.online-literature. com/forums, on May 14, 2005", in their papers footnotes/endnotes.

And IMO, copy-paste is ok when it comes to something which related with general information, instead of specific person's opinion. Say, you want to tell people about the descprition of a place or the history of English ancestors, then I think it's ok when you just copy and paste it from other sites, without the obligation to give the source. Plagiarism happen when you take specific people's thoughts/opinions and considered them as yours.



The moderator posted reviews of books, which is a section of the website. The concept is that the members of the forum write their own reviews of books they've read. The reviews are supposed to be their own original work. Several of this person's reviews include entire paragraphs, verbatim, from reviews written by other people and posted elsewhere on the web. There is no attribution to these other writers or the locations where their work could be found. Also, it turned out, this is not the first site where this person has done this; he was caught posting at another site in the same fashion about a month ago, so he knows what he was doing and that is was wrong.

[Snukes]

Say, you want to tell people about the descprition of a place or the history of English ancestors, then I think it's ok when you just copy and paste it from other sites, without the obligation to give the source.In a casual context, I'd generally agree, but if the context is such that everyone understands what you write (paste) to be your own work, then it's not acceptable. It would not be okay to use a description like you mentioned in a paper that you hand in for school - even if the description has nothing to do with a literary or "official" source. The same with a forum where what you post is supposed to be your own thoughts/opinions. Yes, if someone has the same opinion you do, it's understandable that you don't want to reword just to be original, but at least give the source a nod. "I found a comment on some joe-blo's website that says exactly what I think:"

Grrrr, plagiarists... :mad:

Okay, lines are hard to draw, especially on the internet, and I'm sure there are cases when people really don't mean to be plagiarising. But...

[ihrocks]

The wheels of justice turn slowly at the other place, but at last this person is no longer a moderator. The shame is, if the admin wanted to wait this longer to take action against the mod, he should have waited the same length of time to take action (undeserved as I think it was) against the person who "outted" him. Instead, he created the appearance that the honest member who was deeply offended was in the wrong and the moderator was being protected. This upset enough of the general membership that very soon there is going to be a mass exodus from that forum. Road maps and directions to this forum, of course, will be available from ihrocks. :)

[Snukes]

Way to go. Sorry for the mess. Let this be a lesson. Bring 'em on. Etc. :)

[Jay]

*giggles* ahem, I'm not insane... well, not more than usually that is :p

[subterranean]

In a casual context, I'd generally agree, but if the context is such that everyone understands what you write (paste) to be your own work, then it's not acceptable. It would not be okay to use a description like you mentioned in a paper that you hand in for school - even if the description has nothing to do with a literary or "official" source. The same with a forum where what you post is supposed to be your own thoughts/opinions. Yes, if someone has the same opinion you do, it's understandable that you don't want to reword just to be original, but at least give the source a nod. "I found a comment on some joe-blo's website that says exactly what I think:"...



Yes, I understand your point Snukes...I suppose the line is very thin then..For example if I want to jot down the songs in the new Weezer's album, then is it neccesary for me to write " Quoted from my new Weezer's CD"...?

Kinda hard to do that all the time because we have tons of information everyday, which we heard from different sources..For me..as long as it doesn't involve economic or academic profits (like school paper) then it's fine..

[Scheherazade]

For me..as long as it doesn't involve economic or academic profits (like school paper) then it's fine..
Then someone posting someone else's book review without citing the source is OK for you?

[Snukes]

Maybe Sub would consider adding "personal profits" to her list? By which I mean the author gets credit (and perhaps accolade) for having written it.

If you copy a list of Wheezer songs, it's quite apparent to anyone who reads it that you've just made a list, but that someone else originally wrote it. If you put a post up in a forum called "Why I love the newest Wheezer album," and your post is a review you copied off Joe-Bob's homepage, there is no way to for a reader to know you didn't write it unless they happened to read the same review.

I would say that unless it's immediately obvious to even the dumbest reader that what you post is not your own work, then credit *should* be given.

[subterranean]

Then someone posting someone else's book review without citing the source is OK for you?



Maybe Sub would consider adding "personal profits" to her list? By which I mean the author gets credit (and perhaps accolade) for having written it.

So what does the person gets??? Praises from people on the internet...telling him/her how smart he/she is? Got praise for something which doesn't belong to him/her...? He/she gots nothing

For me, still it is a crime when you got economic or academic benefits. Similiar case can be seen thru Napster..Some artists, like The Smashing Pumpkins, who got "hijacked" stated that they didnt' really bother with people downloading songs for free. I think the concerns mostly came from the businness people who calculated how much money they lost cause of of this free download thing..

And take a look at this example:
Heilbroner, Robert L. An Inquiry into The Human Prospect. New York: W.W.Norton & Company, 1974, page 37:

The race between food and mouths is perhaps the most dramatic and most highly publicized aspect of the population problem, but is not necessarily the most immediately threatening. For the torrent of human growth imposes intolerable social strains on the economically backward regions, as well as hideous costs on their individual citizens. Among these social strains the most frightening is that of urban disorganization. Rapidly increasing populations in the rural areas of technologically static societies create unemployable surpluses of manpower that stream into the cities in search of work. In the underdeveloped world generally, cities are therefore growing at rates that cause them to double in ten years--in some cases in as little as six years. In many such cities unemployment has already reached levels of 25 percent, and it will inevitably rise as the city populace swells. The cesspool of Calcutta thus becomes more and more the image of urban degradation toward which the dynamics of population growth are pushing the poorest lands.

There are a number of characteristic phrases here that say a lot in just a few words: "the race between food and mouths," "the population problem," "torrent of human growth," "urban disorganization," and "cesspool of Calcutta." If you use these phrases in your paper without indicating that Heilbroner wrote them, or just put one reference to Heilbroner at the end of the paper in the bibliography, you are committing plagiarism.

Taken from http://www.georgetown.edu/honor/plagiarism.html


Take a look at the bold words : "the population problem".. Look how rigid the regulation..That is a very common phrase...you can find that phrase everywhere in internet articles, newspapers, etc. Hey, even I often use it when correspondencing with my friends telling how crowded Indonesia is..So do you think I have to cite Heilbroner in my letters, everytime I write "Well the population problem in Indonesia is an old problem... [Heilbroner, Robert L. An Inquiry into The Human Prospect. New York: W.W.Norton & Company, 1974, page 37]...then my letters wont be considered as a form of plagiarism..(gosh I don't even know who this person is or read his books)? If that's the case than newspapers should be sue for commiting "plagiarism", everytime they use the phrase " the population problem?"

And when I dig further in other sites, when you use a drawing you have to cite the sources as well..Then, do you think these two threads in our forums http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3272 and http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4362, are filled with bunch of plagiarism acts..??

IMHO the rules is very rigid because it involve academic writings, someone academic achievements, which should be achieved with honesty.And here you are, using the word plagiarism for all kinds of copy pasting forms ..This is my understanding, if it's wrong then I apologize.




"I found a comment on some joe-blo's website that says exactly what I think:"

So Snukes, who do you think deserve to get the praise in this case? The person or joe-blo? And people might say" yeah ...right!!"..If the poster re-write the whole article with his own words but SAME points and ideas, wouldn't he still be considered as a plagiarist, eventhough he has the same EXACT ideas before reading that article???



As you posted in the other thread Scher, look at the bright side, people got the chance to read the good review, without the difficulties to dig those search engines. Maybe the poster didn't do it on purpose or maybe she/did.. and sure it is easier to scold than to admit that he/she did you a little favor by saving some of your precious time..

[ihrocks]

In this actual case, this person was asked to become a moderator because of the large number of "original" reviews posted to the site. This person (and this was finally his undoing) was known for pointing to his prolific review credits as proof of his importance to the site (something along the lines of "your tiny little opinion is unimportant around here where is mine is because you can see the long list of credits I have in the review section"). When he said this to the wrong person, that member read the reviews and found they were largely not in keeping with the style this moderator used in his posts. A little googling...and, well...you know the rest.

So did this man "profit" from his theft? In some small ways, yes, but he was a small and petty man so these were important to him. But what about the writers whose words he stole? What damage is done to their reputations if entire paragraphs of their work can be found under another name? Not to mention simply the act of stealing itself? If someone steals my handbag and, finding no money in it, dumps it in the trash without taking anything is it any less a theft because he did not profit?

[faith]

Ihrocks: I would like to know the adress of this forum, 'cos I would really like to join a similiar forum, that is, a forum where u can post your own reviwes. I have been looking for one for a long time.

As for the plagiarism: Well, it's too bad that somebody does something so stupid. What does he gain by it? Nothing really. Does it really matter if u write "good" or "bad" reviews? Do people really like u more for having more inetlligent (or whatever) thoughts in your reviews. And it's only the internet anyway.

[amuse]

let's see...i can be expelled for this sort of thing if i do it in class. can't think of any uni in the country where that's okay. and i think by keeping this person on as a mod, that the forum in question loses TONS of integrity. blech. :sick:

[Nightshade]

Is it plagurisim to post a picture you found on the web?

[amuse]

you're supposed to cite that as well. :nod: