Poetry in Rap

[MaryJanesCircle]

Does anyone consider rap as poetry? Now I know what many of you are thinking. "No I don't. I don't care about hearing about guns, sex, violence, and the degradation of women."

I would like to hear you opinions because if anyone would like to just flat out say no, it's not true poetry, I would be happy to fill you in with some lyrics. :)

[JBI]

Hypothetically, though, if we make the connection, it undoubtedly is, for the most part, mediocre (majorly mediocre in the vast, vast, vast, majority of cases) poetry.

[MaryJanesCircle]

Thank you for your reply. But mediocrity is solely based on opinion and is not governed by universal judicial order. For even if it were, there would equally be as many people standing up to say that rap is indeed poetry than there would be saying that it is not.

But first we must ask ourselves what makes a poet a poet? What makes a poem a poem? Wouldn't rap be considered a poem with a very distinctive sound?

[Barbarous]

I hold rap lyrics to the same candle to that of average rock lyrics. Some are simply poetry (in my opinion, a technicality doesn't always make something a something, this case, rap poetry) and the rest are there to support the music or simply not poetry. The Beatles lyrics don't give off the same merit if read as a poem compared to an actual poem, in the same way Wu-Tang Clan's lyrics are poetry material even if read as a poem! But as MaryJaneCircle says we should start to stand by a few definitions first. But ruling off lyrics as unpoetical does not mean they are worth anything. Of course there is still value.

[Desolation]

Bob Dylan is, I think, the best example of poetry in modern music.

Some rap is poetic, while most is just rhyming - which I'm sure people on here will recognize does not equate to poetry.

[MaryJanesCircle]

Okay I would just like to throw something out. First I will add that I appreciate all of your input. And desolation, I understand where you are coming from. Bob Dylan is my favourite poet to tell the truth.

But what I would like to say is, well, let's take someone we can all agree is a "poet", who is Edgar Allen Poe. When he writes, his inspiration comes from the mind, where all inspiration comes from. Whether it is to figure out what he wants to say in his dark, most of the time, eerie poems, it all comes from his mind.

Now let's take a well known rapper such as Lil' Wayne and review some lyrics of his in the song "A millie". May I remind you my view of Lil' Wayne might be biased for I already have a disposition in believing what he writes is poetry.

"A million here, a million there
Sicilian ***** with long hair
With coke in the derriere
Like smoking the thinest air
I open the Lamborghini hopin' them crackers see me
Like look at that bastard weezy
He's a beast, he's a dog, he's a mother****ing problem
OK, you're a goon but what's a goon to a goblin?
Nothing, nothing -- you ain't scarin' nothing
On some faggot bull**** call him Denise Rodman
Call me what you want *****, call me on my sidekick
Never answer when it's private, damn I hate a shy *****
Don't you hate a shy *****?
Yeah I ate a shy *****
She ain't shy no more, she changed her name to my *****
hahahaha, yeah, nigga that's my *****"

These lyrics in particular, remind me of all of the qualities of a poem. You have the lyrics about libido, drugs, relationships (even though they are not stereotypical "poetic" references), and egotism.

These are many things that well known poets are known for in their writing. So is Lil' Wayne a poet? Well, he inspires me to write, even though my style in no way compares.

Thanks for reading!

[JBI]

Yes, but the point is, if we judge rap as poetry, we need to judge it as poetry, and as such, it needs to be compared to all poetry, and quite frankly, I am yet to find a real example of anything that stands up with the most excellent of poets - there have been poets who have tried to combine elements, for instance, of rap into poetry - none I know of have been successful, in the sense that Leonard Cohen combined folk music with his poetry, or Langston Hughes took Blues rhythms and utilized them in his verses - perhaps there is room, but ultimately, the whole concept of rap as poetry is degrading to both modes, though, rap has gone through a great deal of degradation already (the shift from politics to consumerism in mainstream works being the most significant one), and, where I can appreciate to an extent the lyrics of someone like Tupac, I can't help but feel that compared with a contemporary poet of his time, such as Rita Dove, embracing perhaps similar issues (though Rose seems preoccupied more with domestic issues, whereas Tupac, from my understanding, seems more interested in spiritual issues) I can't help but feel there is a lack there - of course, one cannot dance to Rita Dove, which says something, but even so - that's like comparing Puccini's libretti to actual plays of his time - it doesn't quite work out - they technically are plays, yet at the same time, they are so god awfully mediocre as to warrant them the most trivial of reading (I have read a couple in the original; that isn't writing, it's smearing).

[JBI]

Okay I would just like to throw something out. First I will add that I appreciate all of your input. And desolation, I understand where you are coming from. Bob Dylan is my favourite poet to tell the truth.

But what I would like to say is, well, let's take someone we can all agree is a "poet", who is Edgar Allen Poe. When he writes, his inspiration comes from the mind, where all inspiration comes from. Whether it is to figure out what he wants to say in his dark, most of the time, eerie poems, it all comes from his mind.

Now let's take a well known rapper such as Lil' Wayne and review some lyrics of his in the song "A millie". May I remind you my view of Lil' Wayne might be biased for I already have a disposition in believing what he writes is poetry.

"A million here, a million there
Sicilian ***** with long hair
With coke in the derriere
Like smoking the thinest air
I open the Lamborghini hopin' them crackers see me
Like look at that bastard weezy
He's a beast, he's a dog, he's a mother****ing problem
OK, you're a goon but what's a goon to a goblin?
Nothing, nothing -- you ain't scarin' nothing
On some faggot bull**** call him Denise Rodman
Call me what you want *****, call me on my sidekick
Never answer when it's private, damn I hate a shy *****
Don't you hate a shy *****?
Yeah I ate a shy *****
She ain't shy no more, she changed her name to my *****
hahahaha, yeah, nigga that's my *****"

These lyrics in particular, remind me of all of the qualities of a poem. You have the lyrics about libido, drugs, relationships (even though they are not stereotypical "poetic" references), and egotism.

These are many things that well known poets are known for in their writing. So is Lil' Wayne a poet? Well, he inspires me to write, even though my style in no way compares.

Thanks for reading!
You do notice that he is cheating on the rhymes right? he merely is changing the first syllable with another monosyllabic rhyme equivalent in order to create the illusion of a rhyme, but in truth he is just using the same swear word twice, which is kind of silly. He does the same thing with the internal rhyme, for instance, in "hate" and "ate" - two simple monosyllabic words, whose rhyme doesn't really do much. The difference really, between this and poetry, is this is done not to mean anything, but perhaps to sound cool - poetry however, is built on, or is generally built on (though now there seems to be a change to metonymy) metaphors. This is built on nothing of the sort, so in a sense, it fails to captivate when really read, but has a nice sort of chant quality I guess when sounded, since, when listened to, this sort of stuff doesn't really get scrutinized as closely, and one can merely lose themselves within the rhythm without actually realizing half of it is just repetitive cussing put there to sound witty.

[Mathor]

I think this is one of MANY examples of poetry in rap. Whether it's good poetry or bad poetry, it's still poetry, and it works as a poem with or without music or a beat.

The Fugees
---------
I get mad frustrated when I rhyme
Thinkin of all them kids
that try to do this for all the wrong reasons
Season change
mad things rearrange
But it all stays the same
like the love doctor strange
Im tame like the rapper
get red like a snapper,
when they do that
Got your whole block saying true dat
If only they knew that, it was you who was irregular
Soldier soul for some secular muzac thats whack
Plus you use that, loop, over and over
Claiming that you got a new style, your attempts are futile, oooh child
Your puerile, brain waves are sterile
You cant create you just wait to take, my take
Laced with malice, hands get callous, from ripping microphones
From here to dallas go ask alice if you dont believe me
I get innovisions like stevie
See me, a sin from the chalice, like the weed be
Indeed we like kalid mohammed mcs make me vomit
I get controversial, freaky style with no rehearsal
Au contraire mon frere,
dont you even go there
Me without a mike is like a beat without a snare
I dare to tear into your ego, we go, way back
Like some ganja and palequo or colecovision
My minds make incisions in your anatomy
And I back this with deuteronomy or leviticus
God made this word, you cant get with this
Sweet like licorice, dangerous like syphillis, yeah

[PoeticPassions]

Immortal Technique has some AMAZING lyrics.

Sure there is rap that is really poetic and profound. Also someone like Saul Williams who transforms poetry into song, or song into poetry. He performs alternative hip hop but is really a poet, in my opinion.

Here is one of many of his songs:

Talk To Strangers

Nah, I wasn't raised at gunpoint and I've read too many books
To distract me from the mirror, when unhappy with my looks
And I ain't got proper diction for the makings of a thug
Though I grew up in the ghetto and my niggers all sold drugs

And though that may validate me for a spot on MTV
Or get me all the airplay that my bank account would need
I was hoping to invest in a lesson that I learned
I thought this fool had jumped me just because it was my turn

I went to an open space 'cause I knew he wouldn't do it
If somebody there could see him or somebody else might prove it
And maybe in your eyes, it may seem I got punked out
'Cause I walked a narrow path and then went and changed my route

But that openness exposed me to a truth I couldn't find
In the clenched fists of my ego or the confines of my mind
Or the hipness of my swagger or the swagger in my step
Or the scowl of my grimace or the meanness of my rep

'Cause we represent a truth, son, the changes by the hour
And when you open to it, vulnerability is power
And in that shifting form, you'll find a truth that doesn't change
And that truth is living proof of the fact that God is strange

Talk to strangers, when the family fails and friends lead you astray
When Buddha laughs and Jesus weeps and it turns out God is gay
'Cause Angels and Messiahs, love can come in many forms
In the hallways of your projects or the fat girl in your dorm

And when you finally take the time to see what they're about
Perhaps you find them lonely or their wisdom trips you out
Maybe you'll find the spot where cycles end
You're back where you began
But come this time around, you'll have someone to hold your hand

Who prays for you, who is there for you, who sends you love and light
Exposes you to parts of you that you once tried to fight
But come this time around, you'll choose to walk a different path
You'll embrace what you turned away and cry at what you laughed

'Cause that's the only way we're going to make it through this storm
Where ignorance is common sense and senselessness the norm
And flags wave high above the truth and the two never touch
And stolen goods are overpriced and freedom costs too much

And no one seems to recognize the symbols come to life
The bitten apple on the screen and Jesus had a wife
And she was his Messiah like that stranger may be yours
Who holds a subtle knife that carves through worlds like magic doors

And that's what I've been looking for, the bridge from then to now
Just watching BET like what the ****, son? This is foul
But that square box don't represent the sphere that we live in
The earth is not a flat screen, I ain't trying to fit in

But this ain't for the underground, this here is for the sun
A seed a stranger gave to me and planted on my tongue
And when I look at you, I know I'm not the only one
As a great man once said, there's nothing more powerful
Than an idea who's time has come

[Adagio]

Ah Bob Dylan is great, and his work can, in my eyes, be judged as poetry.

There are many types of rap. Gangstar rap, and this is no offence to anyone who enjoys it, pretty much stinks in terms of poetry. Now, hip-hop is a completely different thing. Hip-hop, whilst siding with JBI, isn't poetry exactly, but certainly is poetic. Artists like Mos Def, Fugees, Talib Kweli, Wu-Tang, The Roots, K-OS, The Pharcyde, Madvillain and even some of Eminem's work are, at times, extremely poetic and are great to listen to.

An exampe of Madvillain:

He just came from over there, the grass is greener
Last wish, I wish I had two more wishes
And I wish they fixed the door to the matrix's mad fridges
Spit so many verses sometimes my jaw twitches
One thing this party could use is more..
Booze, put yourself in your own shoes
And stay away from all those pairs of busted Tims you don't use
He only keep 'em to decorate
If you wanna peep him select a date
And bring a deep check like checkmate
I kid you not, on the dotted line signed
Ever since a minor, kids considered him some kind of Einstein
On a diamond mine grind, she was dumb fine
But not quite the type that you might want to wine and dine
Couldn't find a pen, had to think of a new trick
This one he wrote in cold blood with a toothpick
On second thought it's too thick
His assistant said: "Doom, you sick" he said: "True blue acoustics"
Psycho, his flow is drowned in Lowry seasoning
With micropower he's sound and right reasoning
Easy as Pi, three point one four
One more one false move and they're done for

Okay, so it's not brilliant poetry, but it is very poetic and presents an artistic quality in which the majority of ganster rap doesn't contain. I think the example above is just as worthy as say Van Morisson's stream-of-consciousness 'Beside you', or Dylan's 'I Want You'. So yeah, I think we can say hip-hop at times is very poetic. :)

[PoeticPassions]

Here is another song... this one is by Mos Def. (other artists have poetic rap songs as well, or participate in poetry slams.. like Def Poetry Jam... such as Talib Kweli and Common)

Murder Of A Teenage Life

The murder of a teenage life
Fire from the cold steel
The heat from the brights
The temperature of flesh and the shortness of breath
The murder of a teenage threat
The aroma of sesamilia Dollar Superstar
Skama like a new cocaine tobacco leaf
Ecstatic tabernists fire water and freaks
The murder of a teenage chief
My easy speaking is as easy as it seems to be
Hungry belly jamma busts off easily
Balloon bang. POP!
Hot as a bang spot in Bangkok
Colder than a pimp glock
Aim shot, the frame drops
Pressure pushed him to the earth like a rain drop
Take not life in vein
And how the preacher was saying
Remember!
Anyways they laid him in a stray box
Dark suit and gray socks
The neighborhood is all distraught
Candles lit the stoop at the park
Where the family and students are
Confused, in awe
They gape into each others arms
IT’S MURDER!
New absence from a mothers arm
Even the warmth from the mother’s arms
Couldn’t keep her son from harm
From standing where the gun was drawn
Over come, done and done. He’s gone…
MURDER!
Shells fell like a bell that rung
Blood bursts, body temperature fell and plunged
And by the time it took the medics to come
The breath eased out of his lungs
And his soul eased out of the slums
And the voice eased out of the drums
The sirens through their ears, they sung
MURDER!
Telephone wire, sneakers hung
MURDER!
For the Black and young
MURDER!!!!!!!!!!!
And the Aves they from
I am from the block the PRESIDENT DID NOT CAMPAIGN ON
Where the dollar that the working poor slave for is made on
Where hustlers stretch the yay long
And hustle hard for an outpost to trade on
Flip it over and make more
Where the blocks are yellow taped off
Where the young blood is trained on Obese to the Fakesoft
Where the pressure just stays on
But the lights and the heat don’t
The place where you witness the true power of street folk
And that’s where I’m coming from people
High post, low key
Eighth, o-z, and kilo
Law man, dope man
Adversary, amigo
Preacher man, pimp hand
Both folding their C-notes
A Black Fist clutching deliverance for the People
Young hand reach out, strong hand reach in
Slap the devil’s hand to make the ****er stop reaching

[prendrelemick]

Looking at it from the other side, I've often thought that beowulf sounds like modern day rap in the old English.


Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,

It's not just the rhythm, it feels like rap.

I think that rap is definitely poetry, but the key is to listen, it is an oral art form. studying the written down word is almost irrelevant.

[sixsmith]

There are some great songwriters/lyricists out there whose work is as compelling as the best poetry. But i think JBI and Prendelmerick are right in saying that as poetry most of it does not stand up. Even Dylan's lyrics don't really cut is as poetry IMO. Christopher Ricks "Dylan's Visions of Sin' attempted to read Dylan as good poetry and from the little i read of it, his case was not very compelling. Camille Paglia included Joni Mitchell's 'Woodstock' in her 'Break, Blow, Burn' collection and to my reading (limited though it was), it was the weakest poem in the book.

[Mathor]

but what if a great poet becomes a musician? what then?

[Adagio]

but what if a great poet becomes a musician? what then?
Then music gets its Shakespeare?

[mayneverhave]

The problem is that the majority of musicians are just that, musicians. Their primary concern is writing music, with lyrics coming second - and this is, perhaps as it should be. Pulling the lyrics out of a song may create the illusion of poetry in some sense, but to do so would be to negate the very purpose of those lyrics, which is to fit together with the music.

The genius of say, the Beach Boy's Pet Sounds, is not the lyrics to the songs (which were not written by Brian Wilson), but the music (which was). Let the musicians write music, and let the poets write poetry - that's my opinion.

Rap is pretty much a guilty pleasure for me. Yes I listen to Weezy, but I would never write a term paper on his lyrics. The best rap lyricist for me is Nas, but even the best of the rappers would never stand up to some of the most middle of the road poets.

[pjjrfan1]

I've always believed if the words to a song, a poem, a letter, a speech, or a book move you or connect to you in some way that touches something inside of you it has to be special if not poetry. the violence and sex in rap sometimes turns me off but every once in a while you hear some words that ring true and go deep, at least to me.

[JuniperWoolf]

Apparently, poetry = an imaginative awareness of experience expressed through meaning, sound, and rhythmic language choices so as to evoke an emotional response. Poetry has been known to employ meter and rhyme, but this is by no means necessary. Poetry is an ancient form that has gone through numerous and drastic reinvention over time. The very nature of poetry as an authentic and individual mode of expression makes it nearly impossible to define.
(http://contemporarylit.about.com/cs/literaryterms/g/poetry.htm)

I've always thought that it was pretty obvious that rap, and all lyrical music, was just poetry set to instrumentals. Meter and rhyme don't make poetry, and neither does quality. "Poetry" is a pretty broad, blurry catagory. That being said, Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" is wicked.

[JuniperWoolf]

but what if a great poet becomes a musician? what then?

That's happened, a lot. Jim Morrison was a poet first.

[Zee.]

Rap is poetry. It's in the name.

Rhythm and Poetry.

[Zee.]

"No I don't. I don't care about hearing about guns, sex, violence, and the degradation of women."



ahha, this made me laugh, i'm a bit worried about reading this thread if comments are going to be like that..

[JBI]

ahha, this made me laugh, i'm a bit worried about reading this thread if comments are going to be like that..

Well, look at the little lyric the original poster posted - I think it is ironic that that passage is specifically dealing with the clichés of that sort, in perhaps the one of the most outwardly misogynist and offensive manners possible. But I guess it is poetry.

[Zee.]

There are some absolutely beautiful lyricists out there, that are rappers. I know a lot about rap and hip hop. Heiruspecs, Dessa, Atmosphere, Murs, uhh, Cage, El-P, Aesop Rock.. to name a few.

Gold and crimson tinged, flittering leaves litter the streets
Sitting beneath the trees, she sleeps innocently
Didn't believe that a being so beautiful flew this low
Using slumber to stun others with features almost musical
And when her low notes, my soul hopes for something more than friendly
When her golden notes hit other folks, I feel close to envy
I'd never wake her, but if the slumber ever ceases
I would rouse her with my kisses and tussle with her demons
Seemingly familiar even though I know I've never met her
Like I send a dream in a letter to heaven and it sent her
Went
Word
Sent word to others
There's a lover, never met, yet she's sleeping in my covers



***


I used to know this woman who had the most beautiful
tattoos on the top sides of both of her hands
she was forty three years old and as far as I know
had never yet been with a man
its not that she wasn't attractive she was beatiful
but its the way that she interacted
she was aggressively passive to the point where she
would of intimidated any mitt that ever tried to catch her
on the right hand she had a tattoo of a nude girl
she claimed it is what God resembled
but on the left she had a mirrored image of the same female
and this one she explained looked like the devil
I remember once watching her touch her own breasts
how the tattoos smiled as they stared down her stomach
as if anticipating would they be allowed to caress
the sweet flower that they both seemed to hunger (sweet flower)
now maybe I was high but it felt so right
heaven and hell both take to this womans womb
it didn't make sense how she could commence
touching herself with me wide awake in the same room
now if I've learned anything in my years (my years)
I learned I no longer believe in surprise (in surprise)
but what happened next damn near stole my tears
the tattoos came alive right in front of my eyes
they both slowly stood up and climbed off her hands
and showed me why she never took some time with a man
they climbed deep inside of this woman's garden
she closed her eyes and she gently bit her bottom lip
I stepped I left and I don't regret leaving
and I'll never forget all the things I saw that evening
a glimpse of religion a piece of coming closer
to understanding more about what intrigues me most
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn
so now I keep my eyes open hoping to take in all I can
about Woman taking in all she can
and for as long as I breath i'll save a seat in my memory
for that woman with the tattooed hands

[kevinthediltz]

I havent read through this whole thing but I think it depends on what you consider "rap"
Like for instance, 50 Cent or Kanye West can write worth a crap. But Mos Def can. There are a couple of groups that can really write. Others just write about how cocky they are.

[Zee.]

There's a difference between "gangster rap" and "rap"

[Mathor]

I used to know this woman who had the most beautiful
tattoos on the top sides of both of her hands
she was forty three years old and as far as I know
had never yet been with a man
its not that she wasn't attractive she was beatiful
but its the way that she interacted
she was aggressively passive to the point where she
would of intimidated any mitt that ever tried to catch her
on the right hand she had a tattoo of a nude girl
she claimed it is what God resembled
but on the left she had a mirrored image of the same female
and this one she explained looked like the devil
I remember once watching her touch her own breasts
how the tattoos smiled as they stared down her stomach
as if anticipating would they be allowed to caress
the sweet flower that they both seemed to hunger (sweet flower)
now maybe I was high but it felt so right
heaven and hell both take to this womans womb
it didn't make sense how she could commence
touching herself with me wide awake in the same room
now if I've learned anything in my years (my years)
I learned I no longer believe in surprise (in surprise)
but what happened next damn near stole my tears
the tattoos came alive right in front of my eyes
they both slowly stood up and climbed off her hands
and showed me why she never took some time with a man
they climbed deep inside of this woman's garden
she closed her eyes and she gently bit her bottom lip
I stepped I left and I don't regret leaving
and I'll never forget all the things I saw that evening
a glimpse of religion a piece of coming closer
to understanding more about what intrigues me most
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn
so now I keep my eyes open hoping to take in all I can
about Woman taking in all she can
and for as long as I breath i'll save a seat in my memory
for that woman with the tattooed hands

this atmosphere song is soooo amazing and lyrically wonderous!

[Dori]

[Some] rap is poetic, and still it is rap—not poetry. We could also say [some] rap is satirical, and that it's still rap—not satire. Rap deserves its place by itself, I think.

Now for some lyrics, to, perhaps, spark further discussion.


[Eminem in "Renegade"]

See I'm a poet to some — a regular modern day Shakespeare
Jesus Christ the King of these Latter Day Saints here
To shatter the picture in which of that as they paint me
as a monger of hate, Satanist, scatter-brained athiest
But that ain't the case, see it's a matter of taste
[...]